Classical Writing Question - How do I catch up? (x-post)

[HiddenJewel]

How do I catch up if I am starting CW with my 8th grade dd? I will be using the Workbook for Older Beginners (22 weeks) and then Poetry for Older Beginners (12 weeks). This will take her 8th grade year. That puts us doing Diogenes and Intermediate Poetry for 9th and 10th. That only leaves me 2 years to complete the Advanced levels which contain material I definitely want her to have. If I didn't do the poetry, I could see it all fitting. But I would really like her to have the poetry study too. I am assuming it is too much to run the poetry concurrent with the other lessons?

I really would like her to be doing Diogenes this year because that is more the level she is ready for in her writing.

How do I fit it all in?

Also, do I need to add a literature program to this?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

[LisaNY]

I would ask this question over at the Classical Writing Message Boards (http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi)

They should be able to help you w/your question if you don't get responses here.

[HiddenJewel]

I would ask this question over at the Classical Writing Message Boards (http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi)

They should be able to help you w/your question if you don't get responses here.

Thanks.

[Janice H]

This is the schedule that my daughter is on, although we did not do the poetry books. I just ordered Diogenes Chreia (the beta version) for her for tenth grade. It’s hard not to get impatient with the series if you presume “all” of your child’s peers are writing brilliant 5 paragraph essays as high school freshmen, but I believe the pacing in CW is appropriate for the depth of the course. After high school there is very little use of the 5 paragraph essay; it’s just one tool the CW student will be able to choose from when it’s appropriate. I have done some of the writing exercises myself, and I think they are challenging.

We just got into the five paragraph essay this month, but the projects leading up to it had already strengthened my daughter’s essays for literature and history immensely. She writes fiction as a hobby, but in the past was frequently unfocused and vague in essay writing.

I have often reduced the number of writing projects of one particular type for my daughter if I think she has done it well the first or second time. I think this is appropriate for an older student. I recently ordered D’Angelo’s Composition in the Classical Tradition for reference and an overview, but I will probably continue to use CW for its excellent examples and explanations for the student.

We too would like to do the poetry, but I think it will have to wait.

I’m interested in what the CW board has to say too, and I also thought you might like to hear from a committed older CW student’s mom.

[HiddenJewel]

This is the schedule that my daughter is on, although we did not do the poetry books. I just ordered Diogenes Chreia (the beta version) for her for tenth grade. It’s hard not to get impatient with the series if you presume “all” of your child’s peers are writing brilliant 5 paragraph essays as high school freshmen, but I believe the pacing in CW is appropriate for the depth of the course. After high school there is very little use of the 5 paragraph essay; it’s just one tool the CW student will be able to choose from when it’s appropriate. I have done some of the writing exercises myself, and I think they are challenging.

We just got into the five paragraph essay this month, but the projects leading up to it had already strengthened my daughter’s essays for literature and history immensely. She writes fiction as a hobby, but in the past was frequently unfocused and vague in essay writing.

I have often reduced the number of writing projects of one particular type for my daughter if I think she has done it well the first or second time. I think this is appropriate for an older student. I recently ordered D’Angelo’s Composition in the Classical Tradition for reference and an overview, but I will probably continue to use CW for its excellent examples and explanations for the student.

We too would like to do the poetry, but I think it will have to wait.

I’m interested in what the CW board has to say too, and I also thought you might like to hear from a committed older CW student’s mom.

Thanks for sharing. My dd likes to write fiction too.

[Michelle in MO]

How do I catch up if I am starting CW with my 8th grade dd? I will be using the Workbook for Older Beginners (22 weeks) and then Poetry for Older Beginners (12 weeks). This will take her 8th grade year. That puts us doing Diogenes and Intermediate Poetry for 9th and 10th. That only leaves me 2 years to complete the Advanced levels which contain material I definitely want her to have. If I didn't do the poetry, I could see it all fitting. But I would really like her to have the poetry study too. I am assuming it is too much to run the poetry concurrent with the other lessons?

I really would like her to be doing Diogenes this year because that is more the level she is ready for in her writing.

How do I fit it all in?

Also, do I need to add a literature program to this?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

We used Classical Writing from Aesop through part of Diogenes. I love the program, but I began to be concerned that my older two girls would complete all of the possible levels and all of the necessary writing skills they would need for college. (I think this is the question you're asking; please forgive me if I'm not understanding you here.)

So, I contacted Cindy Marsch of Writing Assessment Services (http://members.aol.com/cmarsch786/). She also has all the levels of progymnasmata divided up into three different tutorials---Beginning (Narrative, Fable, and Proverb), Intermediate (Description, Anecdote, Confirmation/Refutation), and Advanced (Common Topic, Encomium/Invective, Comparison, Speech-in-Character, Thesis, For-and-Against Laws). Here's a link (http://members.aol.com/cmarsch786/tutor.htm) for all three.

Last summer my older two girls did the Beginning level, which was a 4-week long class. They wrote for about 2 hours a day. Then in the fall they did one session of the Intermediate level (same thing---4 weeks, approx. 2 hours/day) and again in January they did another session of the Intermediate level and just started into the Advanced level. Cindy's tutorials are excellent: she's an excellent writer herself, and is very detailed, thorough, and helps your child think through logically what exactly he/she is trying to say.

At any rate, Jackie in AR had what I thought was an excellent idea. She also uses the CW series, and she was going to have her kids finish CW-Aesop (and perhaps Homer?---I'm not sure---you might contact her) and then have them do the first level of the Progymnasmata. In other words, one could complete some of the progymnasmata books during the school year and then sign up for one or two tutorials over the summer.

Cindy's progymnasmata tutorials will move through the material at a faster pace, but your child will be exposed to the different levels of progymnasmata.

As far as literature, if you don't have a literature program through high school, I would definitely recommend one. We just finished Omnibus II (http://www.veritaspress.com/products.asp?dept=1079&Grade=Eighth&Subject=Omnibus). Since we had finished two levels of the progymnasmata (Beginning/Intermediate), and since my middle daughter was a little young to move into the Advanced level, I had Cindy Marsch evaluate some of their papers from Omnibus II. That worked out very well.

Some on these boards use TWTM/WEM approach to literature; some use other programs. But, I heartily recommend that you use a good literature program and then have your children write about the literature as much as possible.

HTH!

[HiddenJewel]

Thanks, Michelle. I'll check into the other program.

I do have a literature program planned. I just needed to make sure I wasn't doing overkill if I went with CW. Although I need to look at Veritas Press since I am leaning in the Classical direction to some degree.

[Martha in NM]

In fact, my son will do well to finish Intermediate Poetry and Diogenes Chreia before I put him out of the homeschool nest. What I would suggest is that if you're doing something else for literature, maybe work the CW poetry into that sequence and save the regular CW sequence for language arts. We have found the work done in the first CW poetry book to be immensely useful.

Everyone has different requirements, and we have had some basic exposure to different exercises by means of Omnibus assignments and Composition in the Classical Tradition. However, there is nothing out there that offers the depth of instruction you'll find with the CW series.

Another thing I've noticed is that the exercises traditionally taught in the early stages are incorporated in the more advanced forms. I'd rather do fewer exercises and learn them well, than cover all of them in a superficial way. That said, we live in an imperfect world and there's only so much time.

YMMV, but what I've discovered over the years with regards to Language Arts is this: Studying Latin makes English a lot easier. Using CW progym and poetry books teaches a lot of the analytical tools needed for literature analysis and composition. For us, that means that I really try to stress Latin. That lightens our load in the grammar portion of Classical Writing, and the analysis taught in Classical Writing means that we can do more reading for enjoyment in Literature. I'm not saying it's easy to fit everything in, but if you can think across those artificial lines that tend to divide thinking about curriculum it's possible to accomplish a lot.

[HiddenJewel]

YMMV, but what I've discovered over the years with regards to Language Arts is this: Studying Latin makes English a lot easier. Using CW progym and poetry books teaches a lot of the analytical tools needed for literature analysis and composition. For us, that means that I really try to stress Latin. That lightens our load in the grammar portion of Classical Writing, and the analysis taught in Classical Writing means that we can do more reading for enjoyment in Literature. I'm not saying it's easy to fit everything in, but if you can think across those artificial lines that tend to divide thinking about curriculum it's possible to accomplish a lot.

I have no issue with what "subject" covers the material as long as the skill set is learned.

What I really like about the sounds of CW is the analysis. She will already be reading a lot of literature alongside her history program. The main reason I was planning on adding a literature program was so she could study the different literary techniques. Does CW already do this? It sounds like it might and I really don't want to be duplicating.

Would it work to use the CW Older Beginners and CW Beginning Poetry concurrently?

She will be starting Latin this year although it will be on the lighter end since we have never done it before. Grammar is a stronger area for her.

[Martha in NM]

Has she done Aesop? That can be done by an older student in just a few weeks. My son went through it easily in about six weeks when he was in about 6th grade. We used Homer before the workbooks were published, but again, I've found that older students can either work at a faster pace or even skip things with which they're already familiar.

Doing two CW books concurrently would be overkill for us, but if your daughter enjoys writing and literature doing that might work for you. Another option for fitting poetry in is to be diligent at keeping to the "older students" schedule which usually gives you a few weeks leeway at the end of the year. For a motivated student who enjoys writing, poetry might be a good summer course if you school year round.

I like the way that the CW analysis begins with structural elements which form a good foundation for adding more subjective analysis as the student matures. Our experience has been that what is learned in CW using short models carries over into longer works.

You raise a good point about duplication. I'm usually fairly relaxed with our literature curriculum and use it mostly as a vehicle for applying things we've learned in CW and reading a good selection of books. I also throw in assignments based on the different modern essay types such as compare/contrast character sketches or suggestions in the literature text.