Braces, tooth decalcification, raw milk, healthy teeth

[RoughCollie]

My DS, age 13, just had his teeth cleaned and today had his braces removed because his front teeth are decalcifying.

I researched this topic for hours this past weekend and bought some products from dental.net to hopefully help with the problem -- special toothpaste and some stuff to soak his teeth in (while he is wearing a bite tray).

During my travels through the internet, I ran across some research which said that only a small percentage of people who drink raw milk get cavities, and that drinking it will remineralize decalcified teeth.

has anyone ever heard of this? I'm kind of afraid to give DS raw milk, especially because several people have died here recently from contaminated raw milk. Whatever the ingredient that is supposedly responsible for this is in the stuff I bought for DS, though.

Do any of you drink raw milk?

I also thought it was odd that, although the orthodontist stressed to DS that he must brush and floss several times a day, he did not mention the decalcification problem. Apparently it is common for kids who do not properly care for their teeth because the bacteria get trapped behind the braces.

I never even noticed that DS was not brushing his teeth correctly or, in many cases apparently, at all. It wasn't a case of me forgetting to remind him -- he just lied about whether he had done it or not, or didn't do a thorough enough job.

I think if I had better eyesight I'd have noticed it. To see the problem, I had to take off my glasses and practically stick my face into his mouth.

The other weird thing is that it happened over a 3 month period. DS had his teeth cleaned 3 mos ago and there was no problem evident then -- at least not to the dentist who noticed it last week.

Back to the raw milk question -- do any of you drink it, and do you have healthy teeth?

[Sue G in PA]

We, as a society, eat way too much processed foods, eat too many sugary snacks/drinks, drink way too much cola products which are simply horrible for your teeth. You are not alone in this quest to figure out how to prevent major dental problems. My dentist did tell me that some kids are just born w/ "bad or soft teeth" which makes them much more prone to dental problems. I'm sorry I'm no help on the raw milk, but it IS extremely healthy for you (much better than commercialized milk or even organic, commercial milk). If you can find a reputable and safe source, I'd go for it for all the other benefits. Raw milk from grass fed cows (and cows not treated w/ hormones or antibiotics, etc.) is full of vitamins and minerals and very good for you. Oh, as for your ds not brushing well enough or at all...you're not alone there either. My ds9 had a cavity so progressed that he had to have a permanent tooth removed. It was just dead. He confessed he hadn't been brushing AT ALL but would tell us he did. Well, he learned his lesson. Anyway, I'm not sure about decalcification. Make sure he gets enough calcium? Is calcium deficiency even what causes this problem? I don't know. Sorry, I'm no help on the raw milk link, but I just know that one products can only do so much when the rest of our typical diets are just so bad for our teeth (I'm not speaking just about you or your ds...I include myself and my dc b/c we are certainly guilty of not eating as healthy as we should).

[RoughCollie]

Sue, it's not a calcium problem -- the enamel is wearing off his teeth. It's definitely a brushing and coca-cola problem, though. I went into his room and found a partially filled 12-pack of coke, and *18* empty cans of coke hidden around. In the kids bathroom under the sink in the way back were another dozen empty coke cans.

Dh drinks a lot of coke and DS just took it upstairs to his room and sipped cokes while he read late into the night as the rest of us slept. I didn't notice the coke supply going down because I don't drink it and I don't let the kids drink it.

I knew soft drinks were bad for teeth, but I did not know they could eat away at the enamel, especially if sipped over a period of time -- continuously, usually while the person is on the computer, reading or watching t.v., according to my research.

I read that the raw milk does have to come from grass-fed, hormone and antiobiotic-free cows. I'm just scared to kill off DS with it. The raw organic milk that has killed several people here lately was contaminated after it came out of the cow, while the containers were being filled, is the best guess. The weird thing is that the farmer said he thought the contamination occurred while additives were being put into the milk. If it's raw and organic, what additives would be put in it? The news article didn't say.

[Colleen]

The raw organic milk that has killed several people here lately was contaminated after it came out of the cow, while the containers were being filled, is the best guess.

Can you point me to some information about the incident your citing? Thanks!

[Colleen]

Let me first answer the question that's at the heart of your post. You asked:

Back to the raw milk question -- do any of you drink it, and do you have healthy teeth?

My husband and five boys all drink the raw milk we produce here on our dairy. We never go to the dentist, much less the orthodontist. My older two boys had their teeth cleaned about five years ago. Beyond that, none of my boys have had x-rays or cleanings. They brush their teeth twice daily ~ the oldest sometimes does it three times ~ and you would be quite surprised, if you saw them, that they don't even have professional cleanings. Now, is that due to drinking raw milk? Well, I think it helps. I also think genetics are a big factor. My husband and I (who also don't go to the dentist) have no dental issues and have one cavity between us. And no doubt, my boys' healthy teeth is also a product of a (fairly) healthy diet.

I would not encourage someone to seek out raw milk purely based on the hope that it will solve a serious dental problem. As a matter of fact, if we didn't produce our own milk, I likely wouldn't even give my boys raw milk. I would be more comfortable serving them pasteurized milk from a small, local dairy here that does its own bottling.

But aside from that, you have a bigger decision facing you. Your son has been engaging in deceit that apparently is having a very negative effect on his health. I believe you and your husband need to decide how to handle that. You can buy any kind of milk you want, but if your son is nurturing an addiction to Coke, no amount of milk or any other, healthier drink is going to offset that.

Your son is old enough to be responsible for his choices. I would explain to him the consequences of his actions (better to have a dental professional do this, perhaps) and then let him know that he needs to reimburse you for any Coke he steals, as well as pay for future dental work related to his habit. Yes. Explain that choice to him and put him in charge of his choice as well as the consequences.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I read that the raw milk does have to come from grass-fed, hormone and antiobiotic-free cows. I'm just scared to kill off DS with it. The raw organic milk that has killed several people here lately was contaminated after it came out of the cow, while the containers were being filled, is the best guess. The weird thing is that the farmer said he thought the contamination occurred while additives were being put into the milk. If it's raw and organic, what additives would be put in it? The news article didn't say.


Do you mean the West Sutton dairy? Because they do glass bottles and are a small dairy, but that milk was pasteurized. Flavorings were the additives (like chocolate, strawberry, etc), but they were added after pasteurization.

I can't find anything at the CDC site.

I'm no evangelist for raw milk, actually, though I drink it quite happily when I can get it. But I would say simply eliminating the acid from the colas would go a long way in helping the issue. What does your dentist say?

[RoughCollie]

Can you point me to some information about the incident your citing? Thanks!

Our small local paper had an article about it, which is no longer online.

I did some research and I think the reporter assumed the milk was raw and organic because it is billed as "farm fresh".

Actually, it is just regular milk, from the research I did, due to your question. It is pasteurized (therefore not raw) and the additives spoken about in the article turned out to be flavorings -- coffee, chocolate, and strawberry.

The cache this dairy farm has is that it delivers milk to homes and sells it at its farm stores -- mostly in old-fashioned glass bottles.

I couldn't find anything online that said this milk is from grass-fed beef, or that the cows were not given hormones or antibiotics.

Now that I've thoroughly researched it, this seems to be a small but conventional dairy farm. For some reason, they have loads of pictures of cows on their website and that's the bulk of it.

If you are still interested, here are the articles.

http://www.whittierfarms.com/

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/92811.php

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/94647.php

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/01/18/fatal_germ_found_on_production_line_at_dairy/

Meanwhile, I've learned a lot about raw, organic milk. here is an article about a farm I am considering buying milk from.

http://www.newfarm.org/features/1104/chase_dairy/index.shtml

Now I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. What does raw milk taste like compared to regular grocery-store milk? Do you happen to know if a person who has heart disease (I had double bypass surgery a few years ago) safely drink raw milk?

Thanks for your question, Colleen. I enjoyed researching the answer and learning about raw organic milk.

RC

[RoughCollie]

Do you mean the West Sutton dairy?


Yup, that's the one. I answered Colleen's question -- upshot is the milk doesn't sound raw or organic to me. Merely unhomogenized (maybe).

I didn't ask the dentist about the raw milk, but I plan to.

RC

[momo4]

We drink raw milk and it is wonderful for teeth. It has many minerals besides calcium that are good for your teeth and vit D.

I don't believe some of us are born with weak teeth. Look into the Weston A Price Foundation they have tons of wonderful information on Raw milk. Dr. Price was a dentist that traveled the world looking at cultures that were still eating traditionally and not only did they not have cavities or tooth decay, they had perfectly straight, large, white teeth. Once these cultures were introduced to "civilization" and started eating "modern" foods, with in that generation tooth decay and cavities were prevalent and the next generation had smaller palettes and crooked teeth. He took wonderful before and after pictures. Just Google WAPF.

I am more worried about the safety of pasteurized milk than our raw milk. The history of milk is fascinating. Raw milk went bad when big business stepped in and profit became more important than health. Hum sounds familiar.

Also, Google tooth remineralization there is a lot of good information about it. Toothpaste is the worst thing you can use on your teeth. Try baking soda. The glycerin in toothpaste coats your teeth so that they aren't able to remineralize. Here is one site:
http://www.yourreturn.org/Treatments/Teeth/index.htm

I also have a few files on it if you are interested, email me and I will send them to you.
Momo

[RoughCollie]

Let me first answer the question that's at the heart of your post. You asked:

My husband and five boys all drink the raw milk we produce here on our dairy. We never go to the dentist, much less the orthodontist.



http://www.mercola.com/2001/jan/21/weston_price.htm

http://www.realmilk.com/

These are the sites that started my research into the dental health benefits of raw milk.

I have dealt with the deceit factor very sternly. Also, DS no longer has access to soda since Dh is so horrified about this situation that he has banned it from our house.

It's so hard for me to determine what is fact and what is fiction about raw milk, and about all sorts of nutritional issues. Right now I am using myself as a guinea pig. I've got the book _You Staying Young The Owner's Manual for Extending Your Warranty_, by Roizen and Oz and I just started following their suggestions. I've also got one of Dean Ornish's books and I'm thinking about switching to the diet he recommends for people who have heart disease.

An interesting side note is that the Roizen/Oz book's vitamin and mineral supplement suggestions have resulted in my feeling more mentally alert than I ever have after only a few days of taking the suggested supplements. It's a mystery to me why that would be the case.

Meanwhile, I sure would like a way to determine which nutrition claims are accurate so that I can use them to make sure my children have optimal nutrition.

I'm not sure we will switch to raw milk, but it's certainly worth considering, IMO.

Take care,
RC

[Colleen]

I am more worried about the safety of pasteurized milk than our raw milk.

Can you tell me why that is, aside from referring me to the Real Milk (Weston Price) campaign? Thanks!

[Colleen]

Now that I've thoroughly researched it, this seems to be a small but conventional dairy farm.

Boy, my heart really goes out to the owners of this dairy. This was/is a very unusual incident.

What does raw milk taste like compared to regular grocery-store milk?

I find that it tastes much stronger. I wasn't raised on raw milk and am just not able to get accustomed to it (although I have friends who grew up drinking conventional and love raw). Raw milk is of course going to be much higher in butterfat content than store-bought, even whole. Our milk has nearly 5% butterfat.

Do you happen to know if a person who has heart disease (I had double bypass surgery a few years ago) safely drink raw milk?

I can't speak to that, although I would assume so.

[Colleen]

It's so hard for me to determine what is fact and what is fiction about raw milk, and about all sorts of nutritional issues.

Yes, it's difficult. I would suggest you be wary of sources that use scare tactics.

I've been familiar with the Weston A. Price Foundation for several years and am not a fan. They present opinion as fact. These are just a few examples from the Real Milk site:

"(The modern Holstein) needs special feed and antibiotics to keep her well."

No she doesn't.

"The modern Holstein's milk contains high levels of growth hormone from her pituitary gland"

All cows produce natural growth hormones in their pituitary glands; this statement implies that it's unique to the modern Holstein.

"Most milk (even most milk labeled "organic") comes from dairy cows that are kept in confinement their entire lives and never see green grass!"

Another example of an inaccurate generalization. There are minimum pasture standards required in certified organic dairying. (Those USDA standards, btw, are exceeded by the standards established within the Organic Valley cooperative.)

"Pasteurization laws favor large, industrialized dairy operations and squeeze out small farmers."

I don't believe that to be the case. Really, I could go on and on. I certainly don't disagree with everything Weston Price puts forth, but I always urge people to take it with a grain of salt.

[momo4]

Can you tell me why that is, aside from referring me to the Real Milk (Weston Price) campaign? Thanks!


Raw milk naturally contains healthy bacteria that inhibit the growth of undesirable and dangerous organisms. Without these friendly bacteria, pasteurized milk is more susceptible to contamination.

"Another example of an inaccurate generalization"
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, have you looked at the site and the research that has gone into their nutritional advice? I think in general those statements are true of big business run dairies organic or not. Yes, there are exceptions, but few. So I certainly wouldn't disagree with everything you are saying either.

Scare tactics? I think there is a lot to be scared about when it comes to our food industry and general nutrition advice.

Momo

[Cadam]

I don't think you need raw milk. You need to lower the boom for the lying, zero tolerance on soda and watch him brush and floss 3 times a day for at least a month. Kids who lie in my house are no longer trusted so mom has to watch and make sure they can't lie about it again.

His problem was extended exposure to the sugar and acid in the soda and then letting it sit on his teeth all night because he didn't brush.

If the raw milk thing is going to stress you out it's not worth it.

[Colleen]

Raw milk naturally contains healthy bacteria that inhibit the growth of undesirable and dangerous organisms. Without these friendly bacteria, pasteurized milk is more susceptible to contamination.

I can't say I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, have you looked at the site and the research that has gone into their nutritional advice?

Yes. As I said elsewhere, I've long been familiar with the site. I am what I would describe as a organic/sustainable ag "junkie" who has pursued these issues for years. Owning and operating an organic dairy serves to add to my interest in the subject, of course.

I think in general those statements are true of big business run dairies organic or not.

Why do you think that?

I think there is a lot to be scared about when it comes to our food industry and general nutrition advice.

I don't disagree.

[Jann in TX]

My oldest dd had her braces removed this past spring. It was HEARTBREAKING. She went through extensive jaw surgery and now her teeth are perfectly straight--but they are UGLY. The bonding took the enamel off of her teeth...eventually we hope to help her pay for veneers.

She has/had GREAT dental hygiene. She rarely drinks sodas (she does not have much of a sweet tooth).

The Ortho said that this is just a risk of having braces--and that GENETICS play a HUGE role.

My middle dd NEVER brushed or flossed her teeth--and drinks soda as much as she possibly can. When her braces came off last year her teeth were perfectly white!

I have only had 1 or 2 cavities in my life...mainly due to being ill during my pregnancies. I have had 4 broken teeth and have crowns on all 4. I will be losing my front teeth in the next year or so (that dental bill will hurt!). I have huge cracks in my teeth. This is a GENETIC problem (thanks Dad!) and while healthy habits have allowed me to keep them this long--it was inevitable.

[Julpost]

Dh began drinking the raw milk until the dairy decreased their supply due to drying up one of the cows. We were enjoying the milk (I drank it mostly in smoothies) but I didn't give it to the kids because I was still experimenting with it. I didn't know these people personally so I wasn't sure how clean their facility was, but dh was so happy to have found a source of raw milk, he had no problem drinking it. I was a little worried just because I wasn't sure how to ensure the cleanliness of the milk.

My dh swears he feels better drinking it. I haven't done too much research into it, I just don't have the time. Having the cream was fun and we made butter once, for the first time.

I'd buy it again but I'd have to do a lot more research before I gave it to the kids.

[Cindyg]

Or do you know for sure that he didn't brush properly? A poster below even used the word "lying."

I'm sure you read that this is common when braces are removed. It doesn't necessarily mean he lied to you. He may have brushed as well as he could, or to a standard that he thought was acceptable.

When my son wore braces, he was young enough that we were still closely supervising his brushing and flossing. He never skipped. He still had a white spot. BTW, it was not possible for us to see the white spot until the braces were removed, so don't blame yourself for not noticing!

It's disappointing, to be sure; but I don't blame my son.

[Karen sn]

I love raw goat's milk even more than raw cow's.. You can buy it legally at Whole Foods for your pets.
It is delicious!!!!!!! ANd it is full of enzynes that help it digest - these enzymes are lost in the pasturized.

[Julie in CA]

My son (no braces) had some rather large areas of apparent decalcification. It's definitely due to poor oral hygiene, but this is a kid with some learning problems, and lagging fine motor skills. We do what we can.
Our dentist sent him home with special toothpaste called MI Paste.
It's supposed to rebuild the enamel, and it worked! It's not available over the counter, but a tiny tube was enough to fix my ds's visible spots.
You might want to ask your dentist about it.
~Julie~

[RoughCollie]

I'm glad it works. I bought some online a few days ago, but it hasn't arrived yet. Thanks!

My son (no braces) had some rather large areas of apparent decalcification. It's definitely due to poor oral hygiene, but this is a kid with some learning problems, and lagging fine motor skills. We do what we can.
Our dentist sent him home with special toothpaste called MI Paste.
It's supposed to rebuild the enamel, and it worked! It's not available over the counter, but a tiny tube was enough to fix my ds's visible spots.
You might want to ask your dentist about it.
~Julie~

[RoughCollie]

DS didn't brush his teeth. He told me he did, all along, every time I reminded him to do it (after breakfast and before bed). That is lying. DS was also sneaking around by getting into DH's soda stash (hey, my H key is suddenly working again!) and hiding the Cokes in his room and drinking them whenever he had the chance. He'd get rid of the empty cans when he had accumulated a couple of dozen of them.

I never had a clue this was going on.

The dentist asked him how often he brushed, and he said, "Never".

DS told me that if he had known what could happen, he would have brushed his teeth all along. He had no idea that anything would happen, and he's never had a cavity, so he assumed he was home free.

He also figured that since I usually catch him in lies, that I magically knew he was not brushing his teeth. Since I didn't tell him he was lying, he figured it didn't matter. This is 13 year old trying to get out of trouble reasoning.

Since last week's dental visit, he has been diligent. He brushes his teeth every time he eats or drinks anything and he flosses in the morning and right before he goes to bed (plus brushing, of course). He now drinks only water, milk and orange juice. He does not eat sweets. I haven't banned anything but the soft drinks, as long as he brushes his teeth after he eats. Currently, we have no sweets in the house for him to eat anyway.

This continual brushing is what the dentist told him to do, along with not drinking soda and apple juice, and not eating sweets.

His braces came off on Tuesday. Next Tuesday he will go to the dentist again to begin treatment for the decalcification..

Or do you know for sure that he didn't brush properly? A poster below even used the word "lying."

[Laura Corin]

You need to lower the boom for the lying, zero tolerance on soda and watch him brush and floss 3 times a day for at least a month.

I brush my younger son's teeth and I watch my older brush his twice every day. He gets plenty of freedom to make choices in other areas, but we only receive one set of adult teeth and that's not where I want to experiment.

Laura