Is a college education a "birth right"....

[battlemaiden]

Although I heard this in Obama's speech, I'm not asking in political terms. I wonder if it is true. I'm pondering.

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?

I'm forming my thoughts.

What are yours?

Jo

[Phred]

We can't compete in the global economy with the factory workers our current education system is designed to turn out. If we want a successful country we need to have college-educated people... and lots of 'em. So if we can give that to our kids... by all means.

[Mrs Mungo]

I tend to agree with Phred. We're getting our butts kicked in the global economy. We have to turn it around.

Personally, I would like to see the government require 2 years of government service in exchange for a 4 year degree at a state school.

[Elaine]

We can't compete in the global economy with the factory workers our current education system is designed to turn out. If we want a successful country we need to have college-educated people... and lots of 'em. So if we can give that to our kids... by all means.

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

[battlemaiden]

I tend to agree with Phred. We're getting our butts kicked in the global economy. We have to turn it around.

Personally, I would like to see the government require 2 years of government service in exchange for a 4 year degree at a state school.

Small point: how are we getting our butt kicked in the global economy? The U.S. was just rated the healthiest global competitor. Is was a major study out of Sweden (Norway, maybe) but it is a respected global marker.

We have domestic economy issues- especially our debt, but that isn't really a result of an uneducated population.

If we make college an extension of the public system won't we just end up with the same results?

Don't we want college to be something that attracts the MOST motivated? Not just the ones that can inhale and exhale?

I'm still thinking it through.
Jo

[mommaduck]

Totally disagree. It takes people from all types for the country to run efficiently and in a more self sustaining way...something we lack right now. Flooded job fields don't help competition in a global economy.

[OnTheBrink]

Birthright? No. Darned good idea? Yes.

[battlemaiden]

A skilled lineman does not an economy make. I'm not speaking to whether an individual can compete but our nation. We need computer engineers, scienists, etc. We're not turning out enough of them and that's the truth.

I recently heard a fascinating interview- of course I can't remember the source, but it was on NPR so it must have been brilliant, right?;)

Anyways, it noted that we college educate the world's best and brightest, then they generally stay- but we have to welcome them with a friendlier citizenship process. The statistics about how our universities attract and retain the brightest was very encouraging. We WANT attract people to college who are motivated to succeed- not just punch that ticket.

[Mrs Mungo]

Small point: how are we getting our butt kicked in the global economy? The U.S. was just rated the healthiest global competitor. Is was a major study out of Sweden (Norway, maybe) but it is a respected global marker.

We have domestic economy issues- especially our debt, but that isn't really a result of an uneducated population.

But in some ways it does. There are some really interesting government statistics here:
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/figures.htm#c1

kids in the public school system are being failed in the departments of math and science.

On competing in the tech industry on a global scale:
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/figures.htm#c6

We're still competitive right now but mainly because we're so *big* and we *do* encourage immigration of scientists, tech students, etc. But with the global marketplace changing more engineers are choosing to remain in their country of origin or return after graduation and give back. Because they can still compete and work on the global scale through the internet. They no longer need to be in the US.

If we make college an extension of the public system won't we just end up with the same results?

Don't we want college to be something that attracts the MOST motivated? Not just the ones that can inhale and exhale?

I'm still thinking it through.
Jo

As I said, I don't think the education should be free. I think *many* students would benefit from spending a couple of years in government service before starting college. But I agree with you, it's something I would need to think through.

[battlemaiden]

A skilled lineman does not an economy make. I'm not speaking to whether an individual can compete but our nation. We need computer engineers, scienists, etc. We're not turning out enough of them and that's the truth.

Oh, I forgot. It's the engineers and scientists that we are attracting from all over the world.

We should be turning more of them out of lower education, but until we fix that system do we really want to lessen the standard by making it accessible as a birthright?

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, I forgot. It's the engineers and scientists that we are attracting from all over the world.

We should be turning more of them out of lower education, but until we fix that system do we really want to lessen the standard by making it accessible as a birthright?

Why would making it financially feasible to everyone mean lowering standards?

[Laurie4b]

I get concerned when the focus is on "everyone" and a "college education." Not everyone is gifted in an academic way, though I believe everyone is gifted to contribute in some way. I think any emphasis on college for everyone makes for a whole lot of mediocre college students, another group of people whose gifts remain undiscovered and who lose their sense of self-worth, and still others who find their gifts, but feel "second rate" because their gifts aren't in academia.

I think our focus should be on helping each student find the path that will enable him or her to contribute what God has gifted them to contribute without ranking a professor higher than a plumber, or a doctor higher than a stay-at-home mom. This means a range of choices for students, with excellence in each.

[nestof3]

We need computer engineers, scienists, etc. We're not turning out enough of them and that's the truth.

It's really not anyone's "job" to "turn them out." Somtimes it seems the individual is diminishing and it's all about the common good these days.

I'm content with birth right being: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[battlemaiden]

Why would making it financially feasible to everyone mean lowering standards?

I guess I'll rest on not thinking that tax payers should get involved in other peoples college costs. That is what grants and scholarships are for, right? Lets stop tax free status for colleges if they don't spend a percentage of their trusts on grants/scholarships. That is gov't involvement I can live with.

And besides:

Because when everyone is special than no one is...:tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:


I love bantering with you Mrs. Mungo. We need to go to the zoo! But for now I have to run to a Family Readiness Group meeting :glare:....Pray for me. ;)

Jo

[Mama Lynx]

A skilled lineman does not an economy make. I'm not speaking to whether an individual can compete but our nation. We need computer engineers, scienists, etc. We're not turning out enough of them and that's the truth.

Yes, but to throw out another individual data point ... my husband is a highly skilled IT professional, with no college degree.

I believe that the opportunity to get a college education is a birthright. But I believe it's more valuable if it is something that has to be worked for, and competed for, than if it's handed to everyone.

[homeschoolmom]

IMO, the LAST thing this society needs is more entitlements.

I believe that if we are falling behind it can be attributed to laziness and general lack of work ethic. Yes the educational system is broken but a truly motivated learner with a great support system (parents) can still succeed.

I can't tell you how many people I see in Corporate America that have zilcho work ethic/accountability and, sad to say, (I'm generalizing) it seems to be more prevalent the younger the individual. "I graduated such-such therefore I NEED a corner office." You want it? EARN it!

Just my 2 cents....

[nestof3]

Why would making it financially feasible to everyone mean lowering standards?

And how to you propose doing this? Raising taxes?

Community college is still very cheap. There is financial aid available already. Also, students can try taking school very seriously and compete for scholarships.

[Mrs Mungo]

And how to you propose doing this? Raising taxes?

There are plenty of possibilities. Raising taxes isn't the answer for everything. Like I said, if I ran the world (and thank goodness I don't because I am WAY bossy and that would be ugly) I would require a service commitment of some kind, that would help offset some of the cost.

I think there are good points here.

I do agree that many of the younger generation (even to include my own generation) have entitlement issues.

I still would like to see college be economically feasible for everyone.

But now, I must make dinner before my children revolt. :)

[sdWTMer]

A skilled lineman does not an economy make. I'm not speaking to whether an individual can compete but our nation. We need computer engineers, scienists, etc. We're not turning out enough of them and that's the truth.

I can tell you that there should really be no motivation these days for anyone to get a degree in this field because there a oodles of jobs outsourced to Russia, India, & China and others.

[latinteach]

Although I heard this in Obama's speech, I'm not asking in political terms. I wonder if it is true. I'm pondering.

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?

I'm forming my thoughts.

What are yours?

Jo

My hope is that the Webb G.I. Bill will be signed into law so that our military men and women who have sacrificed so greatly can get a good college education without having to worry about how to pay for it. But they really have earned their educations, so I guess that's different than what you asked.

[CLHCO]

We can't compete in the global economy with the factory workers our current education system is designed to turn out. If we want a successful country we need to have college-educated people... and lots of 'em. So if we can give that to our kids... by all means.
I agree except that so much of this talk sounds more like we need college to make up for the schools that are failing. College shouldn't be remedial high school. If that's what it's considered, perhaps it is. But if it's advanced study, it shouldn't be.

I'm not convinced an excessively educated population is necessary - speaking from the idea, of course, that the basic one really was sufficient as it should be. Honestly, so much of our economy is run by the average joe driving a truck, cutting your hair, selling you a CD at Best Buy, etc. We currently need better workers on all levels, but there are still different levels of education needed in a population.

I would rather we got far more efficient at the education we do have than to extend the inefficiency out further.

[Colleen]

We can't compete in the global economy with the factory workers our current education system is designed to turn out. If we want a successful country we need to have college-educated people... and lots of 'em.

I agree that our educational system is lacking. Your logic is faulty, though, when you assume the solution is simply to funnel more students on to the university track.

[Snickerdoodle]

Very interesing discussion.

[Alenee]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

Hear Hear! And to be fair let's actually stick to the topic Phred. The question was " is a college education a birth right?" My answer would be a resounding NO! This falls under the "pursuit" of happiness. That is your right...to pursue it. But this nation does not have to give every kid a college education.

[Michelle in MO]

My dad has made this point a number of times, but he has not linked it to a birthright to receive a college education. He thinks that two years in the service (he means the armed forces) would be a good idea for many people. Mrs. Mungo may not necessarily have meant the armed forces as two years of government service, though. Sorry if I've misunderstood you!

Personally, I would like to see the government require 2 years of government service in exchange for a 4 year degree at a state school.

But, obviously, not everyone is right for a college education, nor should that lessen their worth as individuals contributing to this country. Laurie said:

I get concerned when the focus is on "everyone" and a "college education." Not everyone is gifted in an academic way, though I believe everyone is gifted to contribute in some way. I think any emphasis on college for everyone makes for a whole lot of mediocre college students, another group of people whose gifts remain undiscovered and who lose their sense of self-worth, and still others who find their gifts, but feel "second rate" because their gifts aren't in academia.

I think our focus should be on helping each student find the path that will enable him or her to contribute what God has gifted them to contribute without ranking a professor higher than a plumber, or a doctor higher than a stay-at-home mom. This means a range of choices for students, with excellence in each.

And, like MamaLynx said:

I believe that the opportunity to get a college education is a birthright. But I believe it's more valuable if it is something that has to be worked for, and competed for, than if it's handed to everyone.

Everyone should have the opportunity to go to college. That doesn't mean that everyone should go to college. Some people have absolutely no desire to go to college.

In some countries in Europe, I believe (such as Germany), a college education is "free", but it's obviously paid for by much higher taxes. Our country and other countries, such as those in Europe, still have to have certain standards for college, so not everyone in some of these countries is allowed to go to college. Furthermore, not everyone in Germany is "entitled" to go to college, but only those who can pass the stiff entrance exams which are given at a much younger age than our h.s. kids and which essentially determine, at an early age, which "track" the kids will follow in life. The kids that score high enough on these exams at the age of 12 are allowed to go to the gymnasium and then on to the university. I believe France's system is similar, only in that case they go on to the lycee.

Almost all of my college professors, the ones who were emigres from Germany, appreciated the overall freedom of opportunity that America offers as opposed to Germany---even though Germany is a free country. Although they would readily admit that the education at the gymnasium was superior to the education at U.S. high schools, they preferred the American system which allowed for greater freedom of choice. There, your future is determined at an extremely young age--11 or 12. Here, I believe there are more "second chances". There are kids who can "mess things up" for themselves in middle school and high school, only to sort of get their "act" together later and find that, through a variety of means, they are able to get a college education later on. There was a kid like that in our middle school and high school: he had a serious problem with drugs in high school. After he graduated, he was able to shake free from their hold and went on to get straight A's in college. Had his future been determined at 11 or 12, there probably would not have been too much of a second chance for him. Furthermore, in countries like Japan (whose system is similar to Europe), the suicide rate is very high among 11/12 year olds. There is tremendous pressure put on them to pass those exams, because it determines their future.

Maybe the better question would be: how can we improve all forms of education in the U.S. so that more kids can be prepared to tackle whatever is ahead of them, whether that choice be college or technical school or whatever? I think that's why some of us homeschool, although I admit that doesn't solve the problems in public schools.

So---there are a multitude of factors to be examined here. This discussion is interesting, but it brings up more questions!

[FlockOfSillies]

Neither is "health care". :glare:

[DB in NJ]

Yeah, I caught that too.

No. It's not. It's a privilege.

[Violet]

I agree that our educational system is lacking. Your logic is faulty, though, when you assume the solution is simply to funnel more students on to the university track.
:iagree:

[Scarlett]

I agree that our educational system is lacking. Your logic is faulty, though, when you assume the solution is simply to funnel more students on to the university track.

:iagree: I tried to rep you but couldn't.

[Virginia Dawn]

You know what, in Virginia just about anyone can get a college education free through the community college to state college system. Virginia tuition assistance covers full time attendance at the cc. There are programs for the best 2year students to transfer on to local 4 year schools. Many other states have the same kind of thing.

However, many many high school graduates *choose* not to go that route for a variety of reasons. Many of these would benefit more by job specific training schools, similar to training schools for the military.

College is not a magic bullet, nor is it a birthright. IMO choice is much better than any kind of required governmental education track.

[Violet]

Also, don't forget the reduction in Americans becoming physicians or nurses due to lack of preparation for the rigor of medical or graduate school courses. Americans are not getting into graduate programs because of low test scores on the GRE and MCAT. Our children enter college unprepared, thus barely graduate or not at all. Also, the drop-out rate for entering freshman is about 54%.

Regarding the original OP's question, yes, everyone has a right to attend college, but whether the person attends or not is up to their personal determination. My son wanted to attend a school that only offered 3/5 scholarship. We chose a lower tiered school with a full scholarship. I believe everyone has a right to a college education, but not handed to them just because they breathe air.

I agree. The question is WHY are our kids not prepared? Is it because we need to start putting two year olds in formal school? Obviously, I am just kidding. But I know there are people out there who think lack of earlier schooling is why kids do dismally much later, which I think is baloney. I think we push young kids to do things way beyond what they are typically ready to do, and once kids get to be teens, schools and parents often treat them like babies. Well, I should clarify that. I think they allow kids to do adult things but don't expect them to shoulder adult responsibilities. But that's a whole different topic. As for lack of preparation, my oldest went to a high school with nearly three thousand kids, and I was very familiar with what was going on in there. The tracking system is incredible. MOST kids are tracked into mediocre classes beginning at early ages. I in no way believe that my child along with about 40 others in her graduating class of nearly 900 were the only kids capable of handling challenging math/science/lit classes. She spent the majority of her days with the same 40 kids. And a large percentage of the kids she graduated with are in college now, too.

I think we need to help create desire in our children, desire to learn, to educate themselves and be life long learners, independent thinkers. The desire to work hard for things that matter to them. College now often seems like an extension of high school, often a mediocre experience. I agree that children should grow up knowing that the opportunity is there for them. A guaranteed college education will not make all right in the world for our children. It starts way, way before that IMO.

Anita

[JFS in IL]

No. BUT I think the right to a DECENT education that prepares a student to SUCCEED in college is a birthright - and most American kids are not getting it!!!!

[In The Great White North]

The "college education" of today used to happen in high school and still does in many countries. The Abitur in Germany is considered to be the equivalent of a Bachelor's in the US, even though it is the high school (gymnasium) diploma.

My grandpa (born 1902) had an 8th grade education. He knew way more than I do (after a Master's.) How many high school grauates could do this http://people.morehead-st.edu/fs/w.willis/eighthgrade.html? Or the "recite all you know" exercises in the Laura Ingalls Wilder books?

So, in one way the "college education" of today is a birthright - it's the same education our parents and grandparents got from high school.

Many colleges complain that they have to spend two years teaching high school material to incoming students before they can do college work. Check out all the remedial courses offered at your local state school.

The solution is obviously not to send more preople to college. That would only allow the K-12 system to get worse than it already is.




Also, don't forget the reduction in Americans becoming physicians or nurses due to lack of preparation for the rigor of medical or graduate school courses

I can't let this pass without mentioning a few other variables involved in this:

huge college debt,
rotten hours,
mountains of insurance paperwork,
bureaucratic hospitals,
set fees that don't meet costs,
liability and an increased tendency of people to sue over "acts of God",
more paperwork.

There are plenty of well-educated people who have no interest in getting involved in the mess of our health system. There are even doctors and nurses, who have paid to be eduated, trained and certified, who leave the profession for the above reasons.

[covenant.christian]

that college education is a good idea but not a birthright.

I appreciate that Obama is saying this to help with our children, and the future of our country, but I think personally we need to take care of our national debt NOW, before anything else.

[Linda]

If we make college an extension of the public system won't we just end up with the same results?



This is my hangup with the idea.



The potential is wasted in the K-12 system; adding 2 or 4 years of college isn't going to change the outcome because the trajectory is already set.

I'd rather see a much stronger focus on academics in our current K-12 system that would, in theory, turn out more people interested, motivated, and able to puruse challenging careers.

[WendyK]

I believe a college education should be available to anyone who wants one. I don't necessarily believe it is for everyone though. I would like to see other alternatives in that mix as well. For example, trade schools or apprenticeships should be included.

I think it is wrong that a person graduates from college riddled with so much debt that it takes them 30 years to pay it off.

And to all the industries who whine about not having enough workers, then put your money where your mouth is. Maybe more people would consider, as an example, engineering if they could go to college for free to study it. That certainly would have attracted me!

[Marie in Oh]

[QUOTE=In The Great White North;273085]The "college education" of today used to happen in high school and still does in many countries. The Abitur in Germany is considered to be the equivalent of a Bachelor's in the US, even though it is the high school (gymnasium) diploma.

My grandpa (born 1902) had an 8th grade education. He knew way more than I do (after a Master's.) How many high school grauates could do this http://people.morehead-st.edu/fs/w.willis/eighthgrade.html? Or the "recite all you know" exercises in the Laura Ingalls Wilder books?

So, in one way the "college education" of today is a birthright - it's the same education our parents and grandparents got from high school.


:iagree: College is getting to be a joke these days. And the more the government gets involved (as in making it an extension of public school) the worse it is going to get. Ask me how I know? When I taught Freshman Comp I had many kids who could write a complete sentence and many who couldn't read. And this was at a private university. Yet, there they were, going to collge and being granted degrees.

And as far as the foreign students being here and taking the training and the jobs, many, many, many are cheating there way through with no remorse. And I am not being prejudiced-- it is a known fact. These kids think it is their right to get a degree from an American University. My dh is a college engineering professor teaching gradute level courses and many of these students believe the end justifies the means (a good grade by cheating), then what ever it takes man. And when they are caught, they are not sorry. And when my dh was counseled not to take two foreign students to the dean becasue they wouldn't do anything becasue they were foreign, well, I just about flipped my lid. Let me just say if these people are cheating their way through engineering school, it is happening in medical school too and other fields too. It is very scary that we are turning out professional techinical workers who cheat and lie and afraid to call them on it becasue of their ethnicity.

College is not a right-- it is something that should be earned. Whatever race, background, etc.

[elegantlion]

I believe a college education should be available to anyone who wants one. I don't necessarily believe it is for everyone though. I would like to see other alternatives in that mix as well. For example, trade schools or apprenticeships should be included.

I think it is wrong that a person graduates from college riddled with so much debt that it takes them 30 years to pay it off.

And to all the industries who whine about not having enough workers, then put your money where your mouth is. Maybe more people would consider, as an example, engineering if they could go to college for free to study it. That certainly would have attracted me!


:iagree: about the apprenticeships. My dh is a skilled craftsman and what he knows is best learned on the job.

[Stacy in NJ]

"right", we add an obligation. Politicians telling people that they have certain rights is just another way they purchase votes with other peoples money.

Individually, we may think it's a great idea to offer college education to all students. But that's just an easy way of passing on our own responsiblity (for our children's education) to the collective.
:001_huh:

[WendyK]

I see what some people are saying in terms of whether or not college is a "right". It would be more fair if we all started off at the same place on the starting line. If we all had caring parents. If we all had the right amount of motivation. If we all had the same amount of money. But we absolutely don't. It is often times nothing more than luck in terms of where we start off.

And doesn't a well educated population benefit everyone?

I personally think some people are afraid of the idea of affordable or free guaranteed education because they think it takes something away from their opportunity or position in life. They figure they are where they are because they somehow deserve it, and worked harder than others who don't have the same. Sorry, but that just isn't true. Every child deserves a chance.

[Stacy in NJ]

I agree that our educational system is lacking. Your logic is faulty, though, when you assume the solution is simply to funnel more students on to the university track.

Yep. The value of a college degree has been devalued in the past decade or two. Aquiring a degree doesn't necessarily mean you've aquired the necessary skills to compete in a global economy.

In France, or example, where a college education is a "right", they have thousands of students graduating with majors in psychology, sociology and other soft (very soft) science/humanities degrees. Many of these young people go on to experience years of unemployment or underemployment.

Fundamentally, we have to think about what is the purpose of education. If it's purpose is to ensure the competitiveness of the state then, sure, offer free college, but stipulate that only degress that add to that competitiveness can be paid for with tax payers money. If education is about personnal enlightenment and fullfillment, then no way should the state be funding it.

There's an old Milton Friedman quote, something like, If you want more of something, subsidize it. If we want more marginal degees of little real value we should offer "free" college. I envision a huge black hole of meaningless degrees and endless financial obligation.:tongue_smilie:

[Renee in FL]

I see what some people are saying in terms of whether or not college is a "right". It would be more fair if we all started off at the same place on the starting line. If we all had caring parents. If we all had the right amount of motivation. If we all had the same amount of money. But we absolutely don't. It is often times nothing more than luck in terms of where we start off.

And doesn't a well educated population benefit everyone?

I personally think some people are afraid of the idea of affordable or free guaranteed education because they think it takes something away from their opportunity or position in life. They figure they are where they are because they somehow deserve it, and worked harder than others who don't have the same. Sorry, but that just isn't true. Every child deserves a chance.

I agree with you. I don't know that the answer is college for everyone, but this idea that everyone starts on the same level playing field is laughable. Hard work can lead to success, but many people have to work hard just to tread water. I don't think children should pay for the "sins" (said tongue-in-cheek) of their parents. We're not all equal in this country, not by a long shot.

[Stacy in NJ]

You suggest that free college education would work to to equalize the inequality that individuals are born to. I don't think it necessarily will. We know, by looking at other models, that offering free education to an enlarged pool usually means diminished quality and lowered standards. Is it really a good use of time and resources, for both the individual and the state, to invest in degrees that offer little real skill or a usable knowledge base? It sounds good to say we have a well educated population, but if the quality of that degree is questionable, are we really well educated?

[Stacy in NJ]

I agree with you. I don't know that the answer is college for everyone, but this idea that everyone starts on the same level playing field is laughable. Hard work can lead to success, but many people have to work hard just to tread water. I don't think children should pay for the "sins" (said tongue-in-cheek) of their parents. We're not all equal in this country, not by a long shot.

Until human beings are born with the same IQ, same ability to focus and work hard and the same level of ambition, we won't "all be equal in this country".

[Michelle in MO]

And doesn't a well educated population benefit everyone?

I personally think some people are afraid of the idea of affordable or free guaranteed education because they think it takes something away from their opportunity or position in life. They figure they are where they are because they somehow deserve it, and worked harder than others who don't have the same. Sorry, but that just isn't true. Every child deserves a chance.

I believe that should start at the grade school/middle school/high school levels where those educational systems should be upgraded to make the high school diploma what it once used to be, which was proof that the student had completed a rigorous education and was able to take their place as productive citizens in society. This is no longer the case, which is why many of us homeschool.

I would agree 100% with the person who talked about the 8th grade education their grandparent received. My great-grandfather (my dad's grandfather) received an 8th grade education in Germany, yet he was able to perform calculus without any great difficulty. He also built a telescope by hand, which took him a full year to complete, and took it to the University of Minnesota to be evaluated. The science department there declared it "wonderful".

So, I think we can all agree that all children in the U.S. should be given the best possible education. I would have to politely disagree, though, that college should be an entitlement. Not everyone wants to go to college, and not everyone should go to college. I don't think college should become the substitute for what a decent high school education should be (even though this is already happening, to some degree).

Everything comes with a price tag, and countries that pay for students' university educations have huge tax burdens. And, these countries--like France, Germany, and Japan--have some system that enables them to determine who goes on to the university and who doesn't. In other words, enrollment is still limited, and much more limited there than here. There has to be some factor for making that determination. If there isn't, then I believe that college will become, more or less, a "glorified" high school. In Europe, the determining factor is a student's performance at their exams at ages 11-12; in the U.S., those exams are taken later (17-18), and I believe, despite our many flaws, that our system does allow for greater numbers of high school students to matriculate into the universities and colleges.

Just my .02.

[WendyK]

You suggest that free college education would work to to equalize the inequality that individuals are born to. I don't think it necessarily will. We know, by looking at other models, that offering free education to an enlarged pool usually means diminished quality and lowered standards. Is it really a good use of time and resources, for both the individual and the state, to invest in degrees that offer little real skill or a usable knowledge base? It sounds good to say we have a well educated population, but if the quality of that degree is questionable, are we really well educated?

I do agree. It won't make all things equal.

I guess I see it as offering an opportunity to those who wouldn't have one otherwise. My husband is from Germany. They have free education. He went to school to be an engineer. His father barely had a high school diploma. His mother never worked. He wouldn't have had that opportunity here under those circumstances. At least not without being in debt up to his eyeballs. I went to school here. I am in debt up to my eyeballs.

And I agree on the quality. I don't feel like my education was high quality. See, I can't even make an argument that makes sense. LMAO :001_smile:

[Parrothead]

I believe everyone has a right to a college education, but not handed to them just because they breathe air.
:iagree:

IMHO there is too much of that now.

[WendyK]

I believe that should start at the grade school/middle school/high school levels where those educational systems should be upgraded to make the high school diploma what it once used to be, which was proof that the student had completed a rigorous education and was able to take their place as productive systems in society. This is no longer the case, which is why many of us homeschool.

I think it is starting to head in that direction. Here in NY you cannot earn a high school diploma if you don't pass the (standardized) exams. I guess one gets a certificate of attendance otherwise.

What bothers me about this though is what is in store for those who don't get a high school diploma? Nothing in high school prepares people for life afterwards.

[3DogNight]

Also, don't forget the reduction in Americans becoming physicians or nurses due to lack of preparation for the rigor of medical or graduate school courses. Americans are not getting into graduate programs because of low test scores on the GRE and MCAT. Our children enter college unprepared, thus barely graduate or not at all. Also, the drop-out rate for entering freshman is about 54%.

Regarding the original OP's question, yes, everyone has a right to attend college, but whether the person attends or not is up to their personal determination. My son wanted to attend a school that only offered 3/5 scholarship. We chose a lower tiered school with a full scholarship. I believe everyone has a right to a college education, but not handed to them just because they breathe air.
:iagree:

[Tracey in TX]

:iagree:I tend to agree with Phred. We're getting our butts kicked in the global economy. We have to turn it around.

Personally, I would like to see the government require 2 years of government service in exchange for a 4 year degree at a state school.
:iagree: Any type of public service--military, schools, government, nursing homes, etc. It would shape our youth, add value to our economy, and continue to educate the next generation to compete in a global economy.

In the '60s a high school diploma was sufficient. In the 80's a Bachelor's degree was ample education. I believe a Master's degree with be practically required in the next decade. While a college education isn't a 'birth right', it should be an attainable goal for any student who desires it--without mortgaging their parents' retirement or their firstborn child.

[WendyK]

:iagree:
:iagree: Any type of public service--military, schools, government, nursing homes, etc. It would shape our youth, add value to our economy, and continue to educate the next generation to compete in a global economy.

In the '60s a high school diploma was sufficient. In the 80's a Bachelor's degree was ample education. I believe a Master's degree with be practically required in the next decade. While a college education isn't a 'birth right', it should be an attainable goal for any student who desires it--without mortgaging their parents' retirement or their firstborn child.

yes!

[Stacy in NJ]

I do agree. It won't make all things equal.

I guess I see it as offering an opportunity to those who wouldn't have one otherwise. My husband is from Germany. They have free education. He went to school to be an engineer. His father barely had a high school diploma. His mother never worked. He wouldn't have had that opportunity here under those circumstances. At least not without being in debt up to his eyeballs. I went to school here. I am in debt up to my eyeballs.

And I agree on the quality. I don't feel like my education was high quality. See, I can't even make an argument that makes sense. LMAO :001_smile:

I understand the good intentions (offer free education to all), but it's one of those cases of good intentions having bad effects, IMO. Much like extending unlimited welfare benefits.

I'll just point out that your dh really didn't get a free education. He had to have "prequalified". He was tested and tracked as a child from an early age. If he had wanted to pursue a degree in another less rigourous field, art history perhaps, the German state may have been less willing to foot the bill. Do you live in the US? It's ironic if you do. The German government will have subsidized the education of an functioning american professional. Thank you, Germany.:tongue_smilie:

[Brigitte]

This is my hangup with the idea.



The potential is wasted in the K-12 system; adding 2 or 4 years of college isn't going to change the outcome because the trajectory is already set.

I'd rather see a much stronger focus on academics in our current K-12 system that would, in theory, turn out more people interested, motivated, and able to puruse challenging careers.

I agree. Where we have lost the "competitive edge" is based in the k-12 system and 4 more years of school is not going to fix that. We need to ensure that everyone has strong fundamentals by the time they reach high school (basic math, reading, etc.), because that is ultimately what will make our work force competitive whether entering the job market at 18 or 22.

We also need a stronger program of technical education at the high school level for those who want it. By the time a person graduates high school, he should be readily employable with useful skills/training. Of course, if they did not learn good reading and math skill before then, it is all for nothing.

[WendyK]

I understand the good intentions (offer free education to all), but it's one of those cases of good intentions having bad effects, IMO. Much like extending unlimited welfare benefits.

I'll just point out that your dh really didn't get a free education. He had to have "prequalified". He was tested and tracked as a child from an early age. If he had wanted to pursue a degree in another less rigourous field, art history perhaps, the German state may have been less willing to foot the bill. Do you live in the US? It's ironic if you do. The German government will have subsidized the education of an functioning american professional. Thank you, Germany.:tongue_smilie: He didn't really prequalify. The only qualification was to have earned a high school diploma. Education is free to all in Germany. In fact he had crappy grades for the most part in high school. (yet here when he went for his Masters he had straight As...what does that tell you? LOL)

We live in the US. I have never lived in Germany. Me going there wasn't really such a great option since I don't speak German. Not that I couldn't learn, but this was easier obviously.

[Renee in FL]

Until human beings are born with the same IQ, same ability to focus and work hard and the same level of ambition, we won't "all be equal in this country".


I agree. The other thing, though, is that many children come from backgrounds that will make it much, much harder for them to achieve the same success given the same IQ, ability to work hard, and ambition. If you are born and raised middle class, there is much less to overcome than someone who by all other standards is equal, but comes from a less advantaged background. Even the neighborhood you live in has the ability to make or break you educationally - since we don't have a nationalized education system (and I am not saying we should), educational achievement is not equal given the same grade level attained.

[WendyK]

I agree. The other thing, though, is that many children come from backgrounds that will make it much, much harder for them to achieve the same success given the same IQ, ability to work hard, and ambition. If you are born and raised middle class, there is much less to overcome than someone who by all other standards is equal, but comes from a less advantaged background. Even the neighborhood you live in has the ability to make or break you educationally - since we don't have a nationalized education system (and I am not saying we should), educational achievement is not equal given the same grade level attained. This is very true. My parents were not well off (and my father worked hard). I was able to get quite a bit of financial aid. But mostly the aid is for tuition and fees. There isn't really aid for living expenses. I worked all through college (many jobs), but I never earned much. I couldn't afford a car. My mother drove me to school (in her beat up car). I made it through and did well. But I was limited. I couldn't take advantage of work study programs or things like that (no transportation). So when I graduated it was hard to get my foot in the door somewhere.

[Michelle in MO]

I think it is starting to head in that direction. Here in NY you cannot earn a high school diploma if you don't pass the (standardized) exams. I guess one gets a certificate of attendance otherwise.

What bothers me about this though is what is in store for those who don't get a high school diploma? Nothing in high school prepares people for life afterwards.

rigorous, but it isn't enough anymore. I would personally like to see good guidance counselors at high schools (and there are some good ones!) who are there to really help kids look at their futures and explore their possibilities. There needs to be some type of future education, be it vocational school, community college, bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, whatever.

It does seem like the "bar" is being raised: a high school diploma used to be enough; then it was a bachelor's degree. Now, it seems like a master's degree is really almost necessary. However, are we all really being educated better than our parents and grandparents were?

I know that at our local high school I was disappointed by the counselor's office. When I signed my oldest up for the PSAT, I was shocked to find out that fewer than 20 kids were signed up for the PSAT! Are there really so few kids at our high school who can't take this exam? This one is important, I believe, because it qualifies kids for a National Merit scholarship, if they do well enough! I guess I thought that the counselors would be really urging students to prepare for this test and take it. A woman that we know that used to work in the local schools said that she didn't think the counselors really cared.

I think our schools can do better. I'm not sure what our local school does with its tax dollars, but there is tremendous waste. Much of it goes to administrative costs, not higher teacher salaries. Once a local elementary school threw away a whole bin full of brand-new grade school readers, simply because the teachers and school decided they wanted a different set! Yet, this was all done "hush-hush"---a local private school teacher was tipped off by a teacher at this school. Why couldn't those books have been sold on the secondary market, or perhaps donated?

I just wonder where the educational system is going. I think we're all agreed that there's definite room for improvement.

[Renee in FL]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.

[SnowWhite]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

ITA, and those three little letters are inadequate to describe just exactly how much I do agree.

I believe the value of sitting in college classrooms is highly overrated. There are many self-educated successful people doing a wonderful job competing in a global market. There are many badly educated college graduates who cannot compete in a global market.

[SnowWhite]

No. BUT I think the right to a DECENT education that prepares a student to SUCCEED in college is a birthright - and most American kids are not getting it!!!!

Agreed! :iagree:

[tess in the burbs]

I don't have time to read through all the political fighting here ;-)

I grew up in a family where you went to college. It wasn't an option not to. Of course when the parents divorced and the college funds disappeared the 'we pay for it' went away, but we were expected to attend college. And my parents helped when they could.

I think today many careers can be successful without a college degree or with an alternative degree(community college/trade school). I still will encourage my child to go to college. Studies prove degreed workers make more. On average(I know there are exceptions...dh works with them).

But should it be a right? No. Not all families can afford it.

Should our government find a way to provide college education to more? yes! I like the idea of gov't service in exchange for paid college. Obviously the more educated our country is the better we will do generations later in being a successful nation, but funding people's educations when people go hungry in this country...I can't see supporting.

But I saw too many kids in my own college experience(went to 3 different schools) that went b/c the parents paid for it. the kids didn't want to be there. They had no drive and they wasted professors time, took up seats in colleges others were waitlisted for, and did nothing to contribute to the community of the college. why encourage everyone to attend if they don't want to?

I have no answers how to get everyone through who wants to go. I have no gov't solutions either. I will encourage my own children to get a degree even if they want to stay home and be a wife/mom or husband/father. ;-) I am glad I have my degree. And forever from now if I decide to work again it will be a help to me in gaining a job. It shows I had dedication and drive to complete something longterm.

[Michelle in MO]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.

I would love to see more funding, more scholarships available to help these kinds of people. My parents divorced while I was in high school. Due to legal wranglings between my parents, somehow the money for my college education went to my mother, who had a difficult time managing on her own. I was left with paying my own way through college. I realize wholeheartedly that this happened back in the '80's, when college educations were much more affordable than today. Perhaps it couldn't be done today, but back then, I was able to pay my way through college. I didn't have a family to support, though. I'm not sure if I could have managed it if I'd had a family back then, both time-wise and the finances. I did not have very much money---not at all. I worked quite a bit during the school year and full-time during the summers to help pay for everything. Those were difficult years.

I feel badly for people who face this double-whammy---college and family. I knew a girl from high school who got pregnant while in high school. I met her one day at the university, and she was pursuing her degree in medicine. Again---think back to the '80's. I was surprised she had set her sights that high---but apparently she was eventually successful! I think she managed with grants and loans. I'm sure it wasn't a picnic. And, I would agree that it's not worthwhile to go to college, get a degree, get out and not be able to find a decent job and repay all those student loans.

I think that family attitudes make a huge difference. My dad (and mom) desperately wanted me to go to college. I did, too! Like Snow White says, there probably are a lot of kids in college whose parents pay for everything, who don't really want to be there or work hard. Neither one of my parents finished college, but believed firmly in the value of further education---either college, vocational school, or whatever.

I feel great regret when I meet certain families who have no vision for their kids. They're content if their kids receive their GED's and then continue on in the same minimal pay jobs that they themselves hold. Unfortunately, I've met some in the homeschooling community like this. I'm not suggesting that all of these kids go on to college. I just would hope that their parents would see the benefit of some type of further education.

[Stacy in NJ]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.


I agree with you here. But is it the place of the government to step in and attempt to equalize the negative effects of family/social situtation (by offering free college education)? I'm just saying that there are negative consequences to government involving itself in these social dynamics, negative for both the individual and the institution (universities). I would go as far as to say that the negatives of state involvement are much greater and more damaging then the situation it's trying to improve.

[Renee in FL]

I agree with you here. But is it the place of the government to step in and attempt to equalize the negative effects of family/social situtation (by offering free college education)? I'm just saying that there are negative consequences to government involving itself in these social dynamics, negative for both the individual and the institution (universities). I would go as far as to say that the negatives of state involvement are much greater and more damaging then the situation it's trying to improve.

I don't know what the answer is. I think in these cases it takes much more than simply paying for it for kids from certain backgrounds. It takes *people* to mentor, tutor, and to help change attitudes. I agree that simply making it another "entitlement" program is not the way to go, but there has to be *something* that we (as people) can do to help break the cycle. Money is a small part of it.

[LG Gone Wild]

A later poster pointed out that many of technical jobs are being "outsourced" to India, that's exactly my point.

there are many reasons for that. A big reason is that the technical jobs are being outsourced because it's cheaper to hire an Indian than an American. That's a matter of unionization and employment laws and political machinations. The second, which we all complain about, is the quality of education current Americans get. The mindset about college being a birthrate is not helpful to the goal of having a competent workforce. The Kuwaitis (sp?) had that. The gov. pays for everyone's (women, too, I think) college education and a big consequence was uninspired college folk. They may have changed that policy but I am not sure.

[Jenny in Atl]

Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

[Caroline]

Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

I could not have said it better myself.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:
It's really not anyone's "job" to "turn them out." Somtimes it seems the individual is diminishing and it's all about the common good these days.

I'm content with birth right being: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:
Yes, yes, yes.
Without freedom, a free education does us little good. Look at Cuba. I don't believe we humans have much beyond... "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" as birth rights.

However, if we wish to have a strong country, a better world, I would think the free-market needs to take a greater interest in making teaching as popular an occupation as being an actress or basketball player. Until the masses see learning as exciting as American Idol, we are doomed.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?


No, I don't have a problem with higher education being reserved for those who are smart and strong enough to work their way into such a program, so long as some equalizing is done for folks who are smart and strong enough but whose resources are being drained by survival because of circumstances beyond their control.

But yes, I agree that every kid should be granted the privilege of the level of education that our colleges are currently turning out.

This is why: What is currently a college education should be a K-12 education.

[Michelle in MO]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

for all he does as a lineman. I know this is off the topic (I apologize, everyone!) but in December of 2006 we had a terrible ice storm here in Missouri. We were without electricity for five days and it was a huge pain! When I saw the linemen coming down our road, I could have kissed them (but didn't)! I know they have a very difficult and sometimes dangerous job. I appreciate all that they do.

:hurray: :hurray:

[Tammyla]

:iagree: We were cheering up here too. :iagree:


for all he does as a lineman. I know this is off the topic (I apologize, everyone!) but in December of 2006 we had a terrible ice storm here in Missouri. We were without electricity for five days and it was a huge pain! When I saw the linemen coming down our road, I could have kissed them (but didn't)! I know they have a very difficult and sometimes dangerous job. I appreciate all that they do.

:hurray: :hurray:

[Margaret in GA]

While college isn't for everyone, it should be an available option. It all begins with a 100% high school graduation rate. And when you leave that high school you should have mastered the 3 Rs. At least that much is our birthright. Here in Georgia, we already offer a full ride to college at a state university through our state's lottery fund. You must maintain a GPA of 3.0 to be eligible. Unfortunately, many kids don't qualify (heck, many schools here have a 50% graduation rate) and many of the ones that do will lose that scholarship after the first year. My point is that it all begins in K-12. Our birthright to a great education starts right there. Unfortunately, for many it also ends right there.

margaret

[WendyK]

Imagine if your mother wasn't able or willing to take you to school! Imagine if you didn't *have* a father who worked hard and you had to work to put yourself through school AND help support your family!

You worked very, very hard to get what you wanted and needed. Others want the same, but don't even know where to start. Or worse, they don't even know they are "supposed" to want more. Family attitudes towards education and success in life go a long way towards either helping a child to succeed or keeping them from even trying.

This is very true. I feel very fortunate that my parents helped in whatever way they could.

[Penny from Tenny]

Birthright? No. Darned good idea? Yes.


:iagree: I get very frustrated when I hear liberal politicians talking

about "rights"? What about responsibility?


I don't get it...

[Rich with Kids]

My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a skilled lineman. I don't think that lack of college education equals inability to compete in a global market.

:iagree:. I know plenty of very successful people w/o a formal college degree. Their education blows most college graduates out of the water. We can learn to educate ourselves beyond a college degree. We are homeschoolers! :D

ETA: I will support my dc in whatever avenue they choose to complete their education. College included.

[tmkclscroggins]

Note: I haven't read Obama's speech!

I think education is a priviledge, not a right. Yes, the US is getting kicked in the rear end in science and math but will GIVING a college eduation to every child in the US stop this? I think not! What would this do to our institutes of higher learning? Already they have to offer remedial classes since a good portion of incoming freshmen can't pass basic math or English classes. What would happen if you give everyone a free pass? I think it would turn into a fiasco! I also think that the expense of this would be astronomical! Where would that money come from? TAXES, TAXES, and more TAXES!
I think kids today need to realize that higher education needs to be earned and that hard work and dedication to learning have their own rewards. I don't think you can fully appreciate that unless you've had to work you tail off to get it. The entitlement mentality of the younger generation is incredible. Did our grandparent and parents expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter? No! It took my dad 10 years to get through college because he had to work his way through. Both my husband and myself worked our way through college also. I think that if you give away college educations, institutes of high learning will fall the way the public school system has. There has to be another way to beef up math and science. Also...there are people who aren't college material - either through choice ( wanting to go ahead and enter the work force ) or who just don't have the brain power to go further. I know several people who struggled through high school. Going on into college would be futile! Also...there are many successful people who did not go to college. Again, they worked hard, failed many time, but still persevered and succeeded.

I don't know the answer but I do know that the US has got to get out of the "I have the right to this and I have the right to that" mentality. The only right we have as human beings are God given. Everything else has to be earned.

Sorry.....just my opinion!
Melissa

[WendyK]

:iagree:. I know plenty of very successful people w/o a formal college degree. Their education blows most college graduates out of the water. We can learn to educate ourselves beyond a college degree. We are homeschoolers! :D

ETA: I will support my dc in whatever avenue they choose to complete their education. College included.
Honestly, I don't know plenty of successful people without degrees. I think that it is becoming less and less the case. Where one can get in somewhere and work their way up (and make a decent living). I have had jobs which required a degree and frankly I'm not even sure why a college degree was required. But it seems that is a minimal requirement for a lot of jobs.

Maybe certain jobs in certain industries are different. I don't know.

[brehon]

No, I don't think a college/university education is a birth right or one of our inalieable rights. I do think everyone has the right to pursue a degree (or several:D); but, the state (and here I mean either a state gov't or the federal gov't) should not be obligated to pay for the education.

I also have a different view of higher education. I don't tend to use the terms "college" and "university" interchangeably. I believe they should offer different types of education. (I'm also realist enough to know that I'm in a minority here.) I think politicians and the gov't itself does a real disservice to many kids by holding out a university degree as the only way to a "better life". There should be different paths of education or training open to students: traditional 4-year university, community college, vocational training, apprenticeships. Note that I don't think kids should be tracked into a particular path (a la Germany). I just think our/their options should expand. I also don't think one style of education is inherently better than another. They're just different and should appeal to different people with different interests.

I also don't think the gov't should pay for that education (in the form of higher taxes to lower tuition). Others probably know better than I; but, in Britain over the past several years, there has been a major debate about gov't provision of "free" university education for (targeted) 50% high school students (6th formers? is that what they're called?) vs top up fees vs the actual cost of an education. I don't think any gov't can adequately fund the true cost of higher education and I don't think our gov't should.

I guess this was a long winded way of saying everyone should have the opportunity to try for whatever type of education/training best suits his/her own interests, talents, and abilities.

[WendyK]

No, I don't think a college/university education is a birth right or one of our inalieable rights. I do think everyone has the right to pursue a degree (or several:D); but, the state (and here I mean either a state gov't or the federal gov't) should not be obligated to pay for the education.

I also have a different view of higher education. I don't tend to use the terms "college" and "university" interchangeably. I believe they should offer different types of education. (I'm also realist enough to know that I'm in a minority here.) I think politicians and the gov't itself does a real disservice to many kids by holding out a university degree as the only way to a "better life". There should be different paths of education or training open to students: traditional 4-year university, community college, vocational training, apprenticeships. Note that I don't think kids should be tracked into a particular path (a la Germany). I just think our/their options should expand. I also don't think one style of education is inherently better than another. They're just different and should appeal to different people with different interests.

I also don't think the gov't should pay for that education (in the form of higher taxes to lower tuition). Others probably know better than I; but, in Britain over the past several years, there has been a major debate about gov't provision of "free" university education for (targeted) 50% high school students (6th formers? is that what they're called?) vs top up fees vs the actual cost of an education. I don't think any gov't can adequately fund the true cost of higher education and I don't think our gov't should.

I guess this was a long winded way of saying everyone should have the opportunity to try for whatever type of education/training best suits his/her own interests, talents, and abilities.

I just want to comment on Germany. Kids are not tracked and on a path. That system has pretty much gone away. They do have different types of high school degrees. Even that is starting to go away.

I do agree that there should be more options than college/university. There is some of that, but I don't think enough.

Even with the NCLB stuff. It is as if "they" think we can somehow make everyone exactly the same and on the same level. I think by doing that we leave people out. We do a disservice to those struggling, and we disregard gifted/accelerated students.

[cin]

I think Obama should funnel his time, energy and funds towards reforming "Head Start" and "No Child Left Behind." THEN, we would have educated high school graduates who are prepared for life AND college, should they choose to attend.

College education, a birthright? No. Attainable? Yep.

I also think that apprentiships ( I KNOW I spelled that wrong!), trade schools, and associate degree programs should be available to prepare everyone for a job. College isn't the only answer. We NEED people to be able to fix our cars, build houses, and fix our toilets. THOSE types of jobs do not require an advanced degree, but an appreticeship or a technical degree would be great.

Just My Opinion

[summer]

I think every child who works hard should be able to have that education. But, I do not think that slackers or behavior problems should be allowed in the high schools let alone colleges. I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks that we should turn public colleges in to the circuses that public high schools have become.

[Kim in Appalachia]

That's not quite true. There are applications turned away at med schools, but not because the applicants aren't qualified, or because they can't pay for it, but because there are not enough slots. The number of med slots has not significantly increased in a few decades (NPR had a report on this not too long ago). It is actually planned that a certain percentage of doc will come from foreign countries, not because we don't have enough, but because it is too expensive to run the programs. (Most of our med programs, especially residencies, are primarily funded by Medicaid, and some Medicare.)

As far as nursing, again there are plenty of people smart enough to get into the programs, but the reason we have a nursing "shortage" is because they are poorly paid and overworked. The constant call for more nurses is so that the pay for them doesn't have to increase.

I've been around lots of Med and nursing students, and I have seen and heard all the discussions in regards to shortages and such. You learn a lot when you actually get to see how the programs work.

Just my 2 cents.

[WendyK]

That's not quite true. There are applications turned away at med schools, but not because the applicants aren't qualified, or because they can't pay for it, but because there are not enough slots. The number of med slots has not significantly increased in a few decades (NPR had a report on this not too long ago). It is actually planned that a certain percentage of doc will come from foreign countries, not because we don't have enough, but because it is too expensive to run the programs. (Most of our med programs, especially residencies, are primarily funded by Medicaid, and some Medicare.)

As far as nursing, again there are plenty of people smart enough to get into the programs, but the reason we have a nursing "shortage" is because they are poorly paid and overworked. The constant call for more nurses is so that the pay for them doesn't have to increase.

I've been around lots of Med and nursing students, and I have seen and heard all the discussions in regards to shortages and such. You learn a lot when you actually get to see how the programs work.

Just my 2 cents.

With the nursing shortage. I think part of it is also that if we generally have a shortage of nurses, then it would follow that we probably have a shortage of nursing instructors.

Years ago I wanted to go for a PsyD. I was told that there were so few slots in the Universities that I would have a better chance getting into medical school.

There was this perception I had when I was growing up. That if one worked really hard, they could achieve their goals. And be what they wanted to be. I think this is one of the biggest lies (that I believed) that I have ever been told. :glare:

[brehon]

I just want to comment on Germany. Kids are not tracked and on a path. That system has pretty much gone away. They do have different types of high school degrees. Even that is starting to go away.

I do agree that there should be more options than college/university. There is some of that, but I don't think enough.

Even with the NCLB stuff. It is as if "they" think we can somehow make everyone exactly the same and on the same level. I think by doing that we leave people out. We do a disservice to those struggling, and we disregard gifted/accelerated students.


Hmmm...my information must be out of date then, sorry about that.:)

I agree with your assessment of NCLB. I think many people, especially various politicians, misunderstand the term "equal opportunity." Opportunity is not a guarantee of achievement.

[WendyK]

Hmmm...my information must be out of date then, sorry about that.:)

I agree with your assessment of NCLB. I think many people, especially various politicians, misunderstand the term "equal opportunity." Opportunity is not a guarantee of achievement. I thought the same thing about Germany. My husband set me straight. LOL

[kpupg]

Birthright? No. Darned good idea? Yes.

:iagree:

[Rebecca in GA]

Oooh, so much good discussion here!

Salvaging good kids from bad situations would help, especially if everyone got involved. My husband works for an international wire and cable manufacturer that last year started a program for "at-risk" (sorry, I don't know what the current pc term would be) students as a direct result of the awful statistics about high school dropouts in our area.

As long as they stay in school and follow a few rules for enrollment in the program, these kids get a paying job making real products for a real company. Once they graduate from high school and the program, they get first shot at starting-level full-time openings at the company.

These guys may never get to college, but they certainly get a chance at some kind of productive life. Their stories would break your heart, but it takes more than a sad story to get them and keep them in the program. They have to want it and they have to earn it.

I think the same should be true for the college-bound.

[Michelle in MO]

I just want to comment on Germany. Kids are not tracked and on a path. That system has pretty much gone away. They do have different types of high school degrees. Even that is starting to go away.

I do agree that there should be more options than college/university. There is some of that, but I don't think enough.

Even with the NCLB stuff. It is as if "they" think we can somehow make everyone exactly the same and on the same level. I think by doing that we leave people out. We do a disservice to those struggling, and we disregard gifted/accelerated students.

I guess I misspoke. My information is probably pretty dated, coming from German professors who emigrated to the U.S. years ago, some of them probably shortly after World War II, and some later, in the 60's and 70's. From what they told me, at least "back then," education in Germany was much more structured and allowed for little "leeway" for students to get into a university track, once they had taken entrance examinations.

My apologies to you and your husband! :)

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not in the US, but we have universities here too, ;) , so it's still a relevent idea to me.

If making it a "birth right" means it has to be dumbed down so everyone can get a degree, the whole system becomes incredibly meaningless. It's pretty dumbed down already here. The main reason, I think, is because the government doesn't pay a living wage to students, so they are too busy working to have time to digest their studies. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it's an important point. (Here at least.)

Oops if someone has already said all this, there's too many pages to dig through to check!
:)
Rosie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Although I heard this in Obama's speech, I'm not asking in political terms. I wonder if it is true. I'm pondering.

I think every child in America has the right to a public education- K-12. I agree with that. But is college education different?

I'm forming my thoughts.

What are yours?

Jo

If this were to be the case, why would students treat their college years with any more seriousness than they already treat their K-12 years? Or in other words, why should I (as a taxpayer) fund higher education for a bunch of students who treated their high school years with contempt?
And why would we think that flooding the upper educational system with even more government subsidies would enable it to maintain even the remnant of excellence that it has right now?
I would rather that government subsidies of college were drastically reduced (this is a major cause of the outrageous rate of inflation in college costs), high schools were made much harder and the minimum wage was dropped (which would give the high school drop out the ability to get a job - rather than sell drugs or strip the copper out of the lights on the highway - until they either earned experience enough to rate a higher paying job or decided that they did in fact need more education and were willing to stick it out this time).
And FWIW, the elimination of the minimum wage idea came to me directly from a former VP of the AFT, Myron Liebermann. He saw the minimum wage and the mandatory school attendance linked together as a jobs protection scheme.

[Marsha]

Birthright? No

The great thing about America is you do have the chance to do what you want. You have a choice.

A birthright implies that everyone is entitled to the same thing.
You need to earn things, even college.

[Catherine]

in the world-our superior higher education system. It's why we have such a disproportionate number of Nobel laureates and successful research. Affording access to it for as many students as possible should be a national priority, IMO. Look at the primary education in Japan, Korea, Russia-all of them are far superior to the US, but still their populations are severely hampered by the lack of good, readily available higher education.

Look at the effect of the GI bill after WW 2. Why shouldn't more of the people benefit from college education?

[Rosie_0801]

And doesn't a well educated population benefit everyone?


Er. No.
An educated population is harder to control. The politicians have a much easier time of it if the population isn't thinking.
Rosie

[Mamagistra]

Er. No.
An educated population is harder to control. The politicians have a much easier time of it if the population isn't thinking.
Rosie

:iagree: I am so sorry to be out of rep for the day because you are spot on, Rosie! :001_smile:

[Mamagistra]

I think every child who works hard should be able to have that education. But, I do not think that slackers or behavior problems should be allowed in the high schools let alone colleges. I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks...

:confused: ITA...every Tom (Allen Smith), Dick (Jamal Jones), and Harry (Marc Weinstein) should have the opportunity for a full, rich education in our nation. Much the same way that any eligible person (of any name) has the opportunity to seek the presidency.

I'm just sayin'. :mellow:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am a bit concerned that Barrack Hussein Obama thinks that we should turn public colleges in to the circuses that public high schools have become.


I wonder what Senator John Sidney McCain III's take on it is. He was certainly afforded a privileged start. Military brat that he was, Wiki says he attended about 20 different schools. Of course, the world was different back in his day -- schools were different. And I imagine his going to Annapolis had very little to do with the fact that his dad and granddad were four-star admirals. (And good on 'em, and taking nothing away from Senator John Sidney McCain III's service. But it probably did not stress him a whole lot to get that initial opportunity to prove himself.) I'll have to read up more on his education vision.

An aside -- I once applied for a job at the school where Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. went to elementary/jr.high/high school for seven years in Hawaii. I didn't get the job, but that was a very cool school. And as another aside, the very first time that our ds saw his baby sister was at the annual EHS/Woodberry football game. The Game. (EHS was Senator John Sidney McCain III's high school.) Dd was 2 1/2 weeks old. Very nice grounds, lots of history there.

I think I shall use Senator John Sidney McCain III's full name from now on, just for grins. :D And to celebrate our common English and Scot's Irish heritage. 'Cause lord knows, we descendants of these fine folks are all pure of heart, upright, and would never hurt a fly. Unlike -- oh, wait. Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was descended, says Wiki, from pre-revolution British settlers and some Irish immigrant guy back in the mid-1800's. And of course that Kenyan guy. And yeah, he probably masterminded his mother's remarriage to that guy from Indonesia. Lord knows what the Indonesians are up to. Could be trouble, I guess. But then, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. probably plotted all this throughout his youth just to confuse the upright, hardworking American people. Or perhaps Others were behind it. Or maybe somebody, somewhere when he was a little kid said, "Kid, this is America. We're all equal here. ANY kid could grow up and run for President. Maybe even you!" And maybe he believed them.

He LOOKS perfectly normal. But with a name like that... can one really KNOW? :001_huh: (Is there a :grrrrrr!: icon I could insert in here?)

John Sidney McCain, III is much less ambiguous, yes?

[Mamagistra]

I wonder what Senator John Sidney McCain's take on it is. He was certainly afforded a privileged start. Military brat that he was, Wiki says he attended about 20 different schools. Of course, the world was different back in his day -- schools were different. And I imagine his going to Annapolis had very little to do with the fact that his dad and granddad were four-star admirals. (And good on 'em, and taking nothing away from Senator John Sidney McCain's service. But it probably did not stress him a whole lot to get that initial opportunity to prove himself.) I'll have to read up more on his education vision.

An aside -- I once applied for a job at the school where Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. went to elementary/jr.high/high school for seven years in Hawaii. I didn't get the job, but that was a very cool school. And as another aside, the very first time that our ds saw his baby sister was at the annual EHS/Woodberry football game. The Game. (EHS was Senator John Sidney McCain's high school.) Dd was 2 1/2 weeks old. Very nice grounds, lots of history there.

I think I shall use Senator John Sidney McCain's full name from now on, just for grins. :D And to celebrate our common English and Scot's Irish heritage. 'Cause lord knows, we descendants of these fine folks are all pure of heart, upright, and would never hurt a fly. Unlike -- oh, wait. Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was descended, says Wiki, from pre-revolution British settlers and some Irish immigrant guy back in the mid-1800's. And of course that Kenyan guy. And yeah, he probably masterminded his mother's remarriage to that guy from Indonesia. Lord knows what the Indonesians are up to. Could be trouble, I guess. But then, Senator Barack Hussein Obama probably plotted all this throughout his youth just to confuse the upright, hardworking American people. Or perhaps Others were behind it. Or maybe somebody, somewhere when he was a little kid said, "Kid, this is America. We're all equal here. ANY kid could grow up and run for President. Maybe even you!" And maybe he believed them.

He LOOKS perfectly normal. But with a name like that... can one really KNOW? :001_huh: (Is there a :grrrrrr!: icon I could insert in here?)

John Sidney McCain is much less ambiguous, yes?

Er, Pam?





























That's John Sidney McCain III!
:lol::lol:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Er, Pam?
That's John Sidney McCain III!
:lol::lol:

Shoot. I tried and tried. I really did.

:lol:

I shall edit. This will be our little secret. SHHHHH!