Requiring chicken pox vaccine in our public school - Looking for your thoughts

[Breann in WA]

I signed a waiver on the varicella vaccine for my 1st grade dd because I would much rather she had the disease and developed a natural immunity as God seems to have intended with this disease.

Because there's been an outbreak at her ps, they're now sending home for 21 days every child who doesn't have 2 shots against chicken pox! I don't really mind this because she gets the bulk of her education at home anyway, but I'm distraught that I feel I'm being bullied by the public school system. Nearly every adult I know went through chicken pox as a child. What's wrong with that?

I know serious complications can arrise, but that could be said about many other illnesses kids get as well. I dealt with chicken pox in my older ds years ago. I'd much rather do it again than inject what I feel is an unneccessary vaccine into my daughter.

I wanted to get some of your thoughts on this ps policy and on some of the decisions you've made regarding vaccinations for your children.

TIA

[In The Great White North]

Is that even legal? I bet there's a pertinent state law involved. Did you keep a copy of that waiver?

Usually, they quarantined the people who have the disease, not everyone else who could get it! And I haven't ever heard of an actual quarantine - that was in my mom's generation.

What about the kids who already had chicken pox (but not the shots)?

21 days? Chicken pox only lasts about a week. How many days are left in the school year anyway?

[Breann in WA]

Oh, they did quarantine all the 2nd graders (that's where the case occurred) who had not had 2 varicella vaccines yesterday and called their parents to come and get them right then and there. I guess the 21 days includes a buffer for the incubation period and time to let the blisters scab over?

The kids who have already had the disease need to show documentation from their doctor that they've had it. We have friends whose kids were sent home from their school for 21 days even though they've all already had the disease! They couldn't show documentation from the doctor because they never took the kids in. It just ran it's course at home - she's an RN and he's a paramedic.

There are only 2 weeks left of school here so we would consider it an early summer vacation if we get sent home.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is kind of shocked by this policy. Thank you for your input. I'd still like to hear others' opinions, too.

[Maverick]

Well, the way I understand it is that the reason the government requires vaccines is not only to protect the ones vaccinated, but for the good of the community. That is why we get flu shots--not just so we won't suffer from the flu, but so we won't spread it to babies, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems. I absolutely believe that parents should have the right to choose not to do vaccines for themselves and their children. However, it seems reasonable to me that schools and other institutions be able to restrict access at certain times for those who don't vaccinate, in order to protect their own health and also to keep them from further spreading the disease. It is common to not know your child has chicken pox until a day or more after they are already contageous. If the school is trying to stop the outbreak I don't think their method is unreasonable. If you want your children exposed, you'll just have to schedule a playdate with one of the sick kids outside of school. ;)

[Maverick]

Whoops! I'm probably already going to get slammed for my unpopular opinion, now I just realized I'm on the afterschooling board! I thought I clicked the general board from the main page. Don't mind me, I'll just crawl back to the high school board where I usually hang out.:tongue_smilie:

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

VACCINATION EXEMPTION PURSUANT TO


REVISED CODE OF WASHINGTON: RCW 28A.210.090

3) A written certification signed by any parent or legal guardian of the child or any adult in loco parentis to the child that the signator has either a philosophical or personal objection to the immunization of the child.



The State of Washington, your doctor and public health employees cannot force you or your child to be vaccinated. Your child cannot be excluded from a school or public program because you have exercised your right to not vaccinate.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041013115614/http://forums.cloud-busters.com/files.cfm?fuseaction=files&profileusersname=messiahmews&briefcasefileidlink=11439 (http://web.archive.org/web/20041013115614/http://forums.cloud-busters.com/files.cfm?fuseaction=files&profileusersname=messiahmews&briefcasefileidlink=11439)

Also please read this:
http://www.anairhoads.org/medical/saynotovaccines.shtml

and be SURE to sign your OWN waiver. such as the first one I linked you to.

good luck!

[Breann in WA]

Thank you, OneRoom, for the links! I believe this is a county-wide policy, and I wonder if they can override the state law? I should certainly educate myself on this.

And I do disagree with Maverick (but I won't slam you!) on excluding unvaccinated children for the good of the rest when we're talking about the chicken pox. Next they'll quarantine everyone who hasn't had a flu shot. For normal, healthy people these are conveniences, not necessities and certainly not ones that should be required of our children. We're supposed to get sick once in a while - it makes us stronger. Those who are at risk, immune-compromised, the elderly, pregnant women, etc should get the vaccine if they want it and they'll be protected. But it shouldn't be forced on my healthy children.

[LibrarianMom]

Actually, my husband didn't have the chicken pox until he was in graduate school and had a really bad case. I had the chicken pox when I was two because my sister brought it home from school and still have scars. My kids were vaccinated because my mom has had shingles twice which is caused by the chicken pox virus. Even though you have had the chicken pox, the virus still lives inside of you and can cause shingles when reactivated.

What the school is doing probably isn't legal, but I can understand their rationale and reasoning for doing so. They probably think they are doing you a favor by not knowingly exposing your children.

LibrarianMom

[In The Great White North]

Another thought.

If "they" are all vaccinated, why should anyone else care if your dc get chicken pox? Or the Black Plague? "They" are vaccinated. If the vaccine works so well, "they" shouldn't have a care in the world.

Just wondering.

[Capt_Uhura]

Breann in WA - when you say "Those who are at risk, immune-compromised, the elderly, pregnant women, etc should get the vaccine if they want it and they'll be protected. But it shouldn't be forced on my healthy children." are you referring to the flu vax or the chicken pox vax? If the chicken pox vax, those are the people who should NOT be vaccinated. Chicken pox vax is a live, attenuated virus. Those people are protected via herd immunity - ie from the people who naturally get the disease and those that are vaccinated. Well the elderly (healthy, older folk) should get chicken pox vax to ward off shingles.

In some epidemics, there are those that die and those that live. Some that have a mild case and those that get a very bad case of the disease. The same is true for any vaccine. No vaccine is 100% effective b/c no one immune system is exactly alike. So for the kids whose vaccine fails, they are also protected via herd immunity.

There is also a large political component to vaccinations. Billions of dollars are saved in time NOT lost from work due to adults being out due to illness and parents not being out due to caring for sick children and in health care as well. I read a report once, can't recall the numbers, on the amt of money lost annually due to adults being out of work due to shingles.

the cases of measles that are in pockets in the US are from unvax kids being infected during foreign travel, returning to school and infecting both unvax and vax kids. One way to stop the spread is to remove kids who are infected as well as those who have not been vaccinated so they can't be infected. This allows the virus to die out in the US. While the rates of these diseases are low in the US, we are only an airplane flight away from an epidemic. Keeping kids from being infected, allows those who don't want to vax to have that choice and maintain herd immunity at the same time.

I do respect everyone's right to make decisions on what is best for their family.

[summer]

The policy is clearly insane. I actually "lied" and signed a waiver that said my younger children already had it. My older children had it before the vaccination even came out. Now, it is wearing off and children who are older are getting it.

I would refuse to have your children stay home under their conditions. They are bullying you. Your children have a legal right to be there and I would enforce that.

[Maverick]

Just one more comment--

The State of Washington, your doctor and public health employees cannot force you or your child to be vaccinated. Your child cannot be excluded from a school or public program because you have exercised your right to not vaccinate.

I understand that this means your child cannot be denied participation in school or a public program due to your choice not to vaccinate, ie when you go to enroll your child and they ask for a vaccination record. However, it doesn't mean that you can continue to send your child to school if they get sick. This past year a family in our homeschool group came down with whooping cough (they don't vaccinate) and were sick for several weeks. Obviously they stayed home! Somewhere in the middle of those two is the "we're not sick but we're not vaccinated and there's a lot of this going around, maybe we should stay home so we don't contribute to the epidemic." That is the iffy middle ground, imo, and I'm not sure if that RCW speaks to that issue. Of course it's your right to appeal the school's decision if you disagree.

[Breann in WA]

All right, somebody tell me then what is the big deal with an epidemic of chicken pox? And please don't just quote WebMD with all the side effects and potential complications. I know all that, but I still don't see why everyone is in a panic over this. Serious complications can arrise from many other childhood illnesses as well.

Incidentally, it's the same way with the flu. There's an absolute panic when there's a shortage of flu shots, it's all over the news and everyone pulls their hair out worrying that they might get a nasty bug and be quite uncomfortable for a while. I don't understand how it is that we've so blindly become such a nation of convenience and instant gratification. We want to eat - drive through - and we're morbidly obese. Don't want to work - have a couple kids, hold out your hand to the government, they'll take care of you. Don't want to take care of your sick child for a couple weeks - get a shot, it's very convenient. This is the mentallity that's erroding our nation's character.

Whew! That really got away from me. I do apologize for ranting, and don't take it personally, Maverick. I appreciate your input and a different perspective. But I'm seeing this attitude widespread to the point that it's being forced on people, and truely, it scares me to think about our future.

[skissugar]

I just want to comment one thing about the vac and having chicken pox.. mind you my kids have had the 1st shot and i really am waivering on allowing the 2nd booster shot..

I had a severe case of chicken pox when i was a child.. very severe! I remember my pox had pox lol.. but on any rate when i went to apply to do homedaycare on base they insisited i have the vaccine. I replied that i had the chicken pox as a child and that excludes me from getting the vaccine. To that i was told only if you had a severe enough case. So they did blood work. Seems i did not have a severe enough case and was forced to get the shot if i wanted to do home daycare on base. Now what constitutes a severe enough case? I had it so bad the dr came to our house to see me daily! I was also told that since i did not have a "severe" enough case as a child according to my blood work i was susceptable to catching them again.

Do i agree with the vac? I am still not sure.. my kids both had the 1st shot, and i was told since im homeschooling the 2nd shot is not mandatory. I am still on the fence about them getting the 2nd shot. I most likely in the end will have them get it since my husband is military and if we happen to get orders overseas my children need to be 100% up to date with their vaccines. Do i want to have them get the shot? No most likely not, but like i said im still on the fence about it.

[Capt_Uhura]

skissugar: the blood work that was done was to check for antibody titers to varicella. Those titers can decline with age. I would also think that if you had a severe case, perhaps you didn't mount a vigorous immune response, hence you are losing your antibody titer sooner. Those with the highest titers, may not have even known they had the disease. My best friend's titer was off the chart, she NEVER had chicken pox and her mother was checking her b/c her siblings had it. You can't equate how severe your disease course was with antibody titers.

And as antibody titers decline, you lose the ability to keep the virus in check (varicella is with you for life) and hence older folk whose immune systems are declining are susceptible to re-emergence of the virus which is then called shingles. My friend, who is a nurse, said the few people she spoke with who had shingles said it was the worse pain they had ever experienced, worse than child birth, worse than anything.

[skissugar]

Capt_Uhura-- thanks, for expalining the blood work. I was completely lost as to why my "severe" case wouldnt show. Especially since after the test they even questioned me even ever having chicken pox. I had to get documentation from the ped i had seen as a child lol. Still got the shot, kids got the shot.. will we go for round 2 of it? probably because of hubbys job, but do i want to? no.

eta: my grandmother had shingles recently. She was in quite a bit of pain at night. Something i hope to never have to go through. She described it as the worst pain she has ever felt. diblitating pain.

[Colleen in SEVA]

Thank you to all of the responders in this thread... it is so nice to be able to read several sides of an issue from moms who have btdt, who are willing to respect the differing views of others who have btdt. This issue is really one of the "hard ones" facing parents. This sharing of information and experiences can help others make their own decision with as much confidence as possible.

As for me... the former teacher in me can understand why the school is doing that (pressure from parents probably plays a big role), but the mom in me with a child who reacted badly to vaccines can understand why it may not be the best way to handle the situation!

Anyway, forgive me for interrupting your conversation. :) I just wanted to say thanks because I appreciate hearing the experiences of others on this issue without feeling like I need to call Jerry Springer.

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Capt_Uhura]

Breann in WA - I generally find that conversations along these lines really get no where fast lol. People generally take a stand based on information or gut feeling or whatever and that's it. But I'll share my thoughts anyhow to your question about what is the big deal about a chicken pox epidemic.

A few cases of chicken pox no big deal. But imagine the family who if they miss 2 weeks of work, the father loses his job and can't feed his family. I know of families like that. Or the child who is so ill, needs hospitalization and the family can't afford it. Who pays for that child? We all do. Imagine an epidemic of measles where 100s or 1000s of adults are out sick and kids are out sick. We saw something similar after katrina hit New Orleans. There weren't enough people to run the utility companies, to keep stores open. Same with the flu. What if it's a bad, bad flue and critical employees are missing weeks of work (for their own illness and then their kids illnesses). Imagine doctors and nurses getting infected and then unknowingly, passing these diseases onto their patients.

My friend told me that she was told by several adults who had shingles, that it was the worse pain they had ever endured, worse than child birth or any injury or illness they had ever had.

I spoke to the pediatrician about the recent outbreak of Measles where I live. Her comment was something like "mumps, rubella - no big deal really. Measles? That's a very bad one." A few cases of chicken pox seems like no big deal until 1000s of kids are sick and you start seeing the small percentage which have very serious complications. Then the adults who are susceptible (pregnant woman etc) start having serious and fatal complications. What about the non-vax kid w/ chickenpox or w/ the flu- no big deal to that kid but who sneezes on the pregnant lady in line at the grocery store w/ no immunity to chickenpox, or the cancer patient receiving bone marrow ablation or the HIV+ person or the etc....

I think more people are choosing to selectively vax their kids and perhaps that is a happy medium. But it's one of those things were it's nearly all or nothing ... if only 50% are vax, herd immunity is broken. We're already seeing this in other countries where vax rate has dropped hence these diseases are showing up in the US from folks traveling abroad. And with folks living in closer quarters particularly in urban areas, things can be worse than in the good old days when people lived farther apart and were more independent (ie could stay on the farm and not be exposed). It's a slippery slope to go down that's for certain.

Anyhow, I don't know what the answer is. Those are just my thoughts.

[Capt_Uhura]

kissugar - if you're vaccinated again, that will help to ward off shingles. You will mount a new response to the virus and this new response will help to keep the virus which is laying dormant in your nervous system, in check.

Colleen - it's for kids like yours, those that react badly to vaccines, that I think this school system is trying to protect. I forget the official name but they did it w/ measles. You have an infected person. You surround them w/ people who have immunity to measles. The disease has no where to jump to and it's ended there. But if you have one person w/ no immunity, say a child in the hospital where the infected person is, the child gets it...passes it to his siblings, they go to school and pass it to their classmates, to their teachers, who pass it to the postal worker, the grocery store clerk .... By removing suspectible people from the infectious area, you reduce the chances of the virus getting out into the population. This protect the kids who can't have the vax.

the way I see it, and I'm not involved w/ this school system and have no idea what their real motivation are but I would think they are trying to protect kids like yours and are not being vindictive to those that choose not to vax.

[summer]

It is in no way reasonable to me that children bare the burden of public responsibility for keeping certain diseases away. We pay tax money for those schools. Personally, I know that about $8,000 of my property tax goes to the schools annually. My children (and any other child) very well better have to be the right there without forced vaccinations for things.

As far as general public safety goes, vaccinated children pose a bigger risk to unvaccinated adults and such than the other way around. I just love it (not!) when an adult whines that they contracted a disease that they personally were not vaccinated for, but assume they must have gotten it from a non-vaccinated child. In reality, a newly vaccinated child is contagious from certain vaccinations. AND, that adult is not vaccinated and not taking responsibility for those actions.

And for my non PC thing..I find it amazing that parents who are in this country illegally, and parents with felony warrants out for other things, can come to the schools and enroll their children and not be arrested for it, yet, a child with who is very much so legal, can be refused admission to the schools over stupid shots.

[NHDeb]

Just 2 cents... my kids had the shot later than the norm due to the live virus aspect and a member of our family having immune system issues.
My DS (age 8) had the chicken pox a few weeks ago - in spite of having the shot only 2 years ago.
He only had a mild case and my DD (10) who had the shot at the same time, did not get them at all.
We have also not ever been told that we will need to have a 2nd booster shot either.

And on a mildly amusing note - our family doctor had never seen chicken pox on a person in real life before and actually looked it up on the internet when I brought him in to have it confirmed. One of the nurses in the office had to confirm what I suspected - chicken pox. And, the State Health Dept. had left voice mail for me by the time I got home from the doctor's office - it's something they keep track of now.
Times change quickly...

[wendyroseville]

Breann;

Here's my 2 cents: I would urge you to not get your child vaccinated now, but if they haven't come down with the pox by age 12, get the vaccination.

Here's my story: I never contracted the chicken pox as a child, although I was exposed a couple of times. Since I never got it, I assumed I had a natural immunity. (Yes, absolute folly.) When I was 25 I attended a wedding and then an after-wedding gathering at the bride's house. The flower girl had come down with the chicken pox and apparently was pretty contagious all during the festivities, as I came down with it almost exactly two weeks later while vacationing in Hawaii. (Another folly.) I was EXTREMELY sick and ended up with some moderate scarring where the pox had been. A couple of years later, I ended up with a small case of Shingles on my leg, which after researching around, I attribute to the active virus in my system.

I had my daughter vaccinated three years ago at age 4, but now I regret doing it. I think the natural immunity you get from having the illness is stronger than the immunity from the vaccination.

-Wendy

[In The Great White North]

This thread seems to have veered off onto whether or not children should get the vaccination.

I think the real issue is whether or not the school district (or county) has the authority to make this sort of public health decision. The document cited clearly states that they do not.

It doesn't take too much imagination to come up with other "health risks" they could use to deny an education to children whose parents are not toeing the party line.

Please post any news of legal challenges to this.

[Breann in WA]

Thank you, everyone, for this discussion. I was looking for all sides of the story. I almost wonder if I'm ignorant on some level because I don't understand what the problem with having the chicken pox is. So far I haven't heard of any side effects or complications I didn't know of. I can see vaccinating an older child if he never had the disease when he was young. We watched my husband's grandfather suffer from shingles while going through cancer treatments and it was agonizing.

And, no we don't want a major epidemic, but I wonder in recorded history how many chicken pox epidemics have caused widespread socio-economic problems such as someone compared to those caused by hurricane devastation? There may have been some, I'm curious.

So here's a follow-up question. Should I expose my dd to the sick child to get this headache over with? If she's not pulled out of school this year for not being vaccinated (they've only got two weeks of school left), it will most certainly come up again - She's got five more years to spend in this school. And it certainly sounds like having chicken pox earlier rather than later is best if you want a natural immunity.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's feedback!

[skimerinkydo]

I did not have chicken pox as a child. I ended up getting it right before before my wedding...a very inconvenient time to get it!

[Snickerdoodle]

We live abroad and they do not give chicken pox vaccine here (western europe). All kids are expected to get it. If you do get it don't bother to call the doctor about it either because they don't consider it a big deal.

[Myrtle]

Thank you, everyone, for this discussion. I was looking for all sides of the story. I almost wonder if I'm ignorant on some level because I don't understand what the problem with having the chicken pox is. So far I haven't heard of any side effects or complications I didn't know of. I can see vaccinating an older child if he never had the disease when he was young. We watched my husband's grandfather suffer from shingles while going through cancer treatments and it was agonizing.

And, no we don't want a major epidemic, but I wonder in recorded history how many chicken pox epidemics have caused widespread socio-economic problems such as someone compared to those caused by hurricane devastation? There may have been some, I'm curious.

So here's a follow-up question. Should I expose my dd to the sick child to get this headache over with? If she's not pulled out of school this year for not being vaccinated (they've only got two weeks of school left), it will most certainly come up again - She's got five more years to spend in this school. And it certainly sounds like having chicken pox earlier rather than later is best if you want a natural immunity.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's feedback!

My son got chicken pox and he still was required to get the vaccination. The people enforcing the rules are bureaucrats and just do their jobs and follow orders. If the orders state that the kid needs a record of a vaccination, then whether he's had the disease or not is irrelevant to the bureaucrats. They aren't being paid to concern themselves with contradictions in logic on the issue.

There may be some issue whether getting the disease itself offers stronger immunity than what you would get with a vaccination.

[Myrtle]

We live abroad and they do not give chicken pox vaccine here (western europe). All kids are expected to get it. If you do get it don't bother to call the doctor about it either because they don't consider it a big deal.

NPR just did a segment on one of an unanticipated outcome of chicken pox vaccination policy in the US

"Before a vaccine came along in 1995, virtually all children in the United States used to get chickenpox. Ironically, the success of that vaccine has led to an increase in a side-effect of chickenpox in adults: shingles..."

And naturally, the solution to this problem is more vaccinations, this time for adults at $160 a pop:

A vaccine for adults, approved in mid-2006, does the same thing, but very few people have had it. This may change with the CDC's recommendation that adults 60 and older get vaccinated.

The whole segment can be listened to here. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90922634)

[AuntPol]

Capt Uhura - thank you

I am one of those people who is not able to be immune to chicken pox, measles, etc. I have had chicken pox three times in my life and measles twice (and the vaccinations multiple times). I don't get mild cases but severely.

[74Heaven]

Another thought.

If "they" are all vaccinated, why should anyone else care if your dc get chicken pox? Or the Black Plague? "They" are vaccinated. If the vaccine works so well, "they" shouldn't have a care in the world.

Just wondering.

Amen. Maybe because kids who are vaccinated still get the chicken pox sometimes? hmmmmm

lisaj, mom to 5

[Lizzie in Ma]

And if I had signed a waver and did not choose to vaccinate a younger child, as indeed I do not, I would be pretty angry.

As far as my own decision for my children, while I much prefer a natural immunity from a case of chicken pox, personally, I intend to vaccinate younger dd if she has not had it by 16 or so.

My dh contracted chicken pox at 31 when our eldest got it. It was by far the most serious illness I have ever seen. It was body-wide, inside and out. He was weak for weeks and out of work. I had never seen fever delirium before and I do NOT want to see it again. He couldn't eat due to the fact that they also were in his mouth and down his throat. Not good, bad really.

I do not want that to happen to my children.

[Breann in WA]

I feel exactly the same way. Thank you, Lizzie.

[choirfarm]

All right, somebody tell me then what is the big deal with an epidemic of chicken pox? And please don't just quote WebMD with all the side effects and potential complications. .

Well,...my pastor's and his wife almost lost their child to chicken pox. A completely healthy child before that and it went inside his body (I think that is what she said..she is very for the vaccine. ) My dh saw some nasty cases in medical school. Although it is a fairly innocuous virus most of the time, it isn't always!!! so that is the big deal.

Christine

[Breann in WA]

Not to make a case for mandating flu shots as well, but more people die from the flu every year than from chicken pox. While they're getting us closer every year to widespread panic at the thought of catching the flu, you still have the right to catch it in public school. And the beautiful thing about chicken pox is, in most cases, you only catch it once rather than year after year.

I've certainly never met a parent who panics at the thought of their child catching chicken pox. It's always been a rite of passage of sorts. Annoying and troublesome, yes but, I'm sorry, I still don't understand. I strongly feel it's a convenience measure being taken by our health district, and it seems to violate a state law that says my child cannot be excluded from any public school program for my choice to not vaccinate.

I predict that it won't be a handful of years before school districts begin to require flu shots, too. (You heard it here first!)

[PameliaSue]

I chose not to vaccinate and especially so with chicken pox. We have created super bugs with our high use of antibiotics. The flu virus mutates and changes to survive our bodies efforts to form antibodies. Chicken pox mutates and lies dormant in our bodies waiting until we are stressed and suppressed to strike again. We know it mutates and sticks around... why are we encouraging it to look for ways to change and survive??? Possibly creating it's own form of SUPER chicken pox?
Vaccinate the immune suppressed? Absolutely! The general population? No.
Vaccinations are rarely, if ever watched for long term effects BEFORE being approved. Ask the question, what happens in 20 years??? They don't know. Haven't researched it. You and I get to be the research monkey for them. We'll see how you're doing in 20 years.

[earthmother]

We got the waivers but upon signing them were told that if there is an outbreak of one of the illnesses we would have to keep our children home. I respect the state's decision in that regard as they want to protect the unvaccinated as well. The fact that getting the waiver was so easy and no one bullied me on that end was great for me. Don't worry and enjoy the time with your children. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

Vaccinate the immuno-suppressed? Immuno-suppression is being unable to mount an immune response to a pathogen. You need an immune response to mount a response to a vaccine.

[Perry]

Exactly- which is why giving the immunosuppressed a live vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox) is dangerous and contraindicated. They especially benefit from others being vaccinated, since they can't be vaccinated themselves.

[Heather in VA]

Well,...my pastor's and his wife almost lost their child to chicken pox. A completely healthy child before that and it went inside his body (I think that is what she said..she is very for the vaccine. ) My dh saw some nasty cases in medical school. Although it is a fairly innocuous virus most of the time, it isn't always!!! so that is the big deal.

Christine

I agree - we had that kind of case in our family as well. When critical and fatal consequences can be avoided, then why take the risk?

Heather

[Heather in VA]

Vaccinations are rarely, if ever watched for long term effects BEFORE being approved. Ask the question, what happens in 20 years??? They don't know. Haven't researched it. You and I get to be the research monkey for them. We'll see how you're doing in 20 years.

Actually this isn't true. The CP vax has been around for many years. My 38 year old best friend got it when she was 8.

Heather

[PameliaSue]

I wasn't specifying any specific vaccine in regards to research. Most of them do not get years of research before being approved. And though the CP vax may have been around for years it hasn't been required of the whole population for years, hence their recent (in the last 10 years or so) discoveries of when boosters are needed.

And on the immune suppressed I was thinking of the counter drug they have for chicken pox.... duh:confused:... ooppps.

I vaccinated my first son and he was given the CP vaccine on accident when I had refused it. My doctor was nervous and rambling because of the mistake. He was explaining the medication (?) that they have for people with low immune systems who are exposed to chicken pox that counters it... I can't remember the details. It happened 7 years ago. Anyhow. I'm going to quietly, quickly walk away from this discussion. I believe that there will never be peace in the Middle East and that there will never be agreement on the vaccine issue. LOL

[Breann in WA]

Don't worry and enjoy the time with your children. :)


Thank you, earthmother, that's the best advice I've heard all year! If or when it comes to that, that's exactly what I'll do.

Thank you, all!

[Holly IN]

I never had the chicken pox but I did get in bed with my brother who had it. (chicken pox party)

When I was pregnant with my dd, I saw a pox on my son's back. The dr confirmed it was chicken pox. One spot was all he had. They told me I needed to see my OB asap. I called and told them what happened. They ordered me to their office. They did a blood test and rushed it to the hospital. We waited about an hour. They called and said I was fine. They said my blood results showed that I already had the pox. I told the dr I didn't. He asked me if I ever participated in the chicken pox party. I told him I did. He said I am fine and sent me on my way.

I said all that to say this: Get your child's blood tested for immunity or teter levels then go from there. I wouldn't vacinate until at an older age with blood test confirming there is no immunity or teter levels.

My dd is vacinated against the pox much to my regret. I would have preferred she get it through contact. My plan is to get her blood tested for immunity before getting her a 2nd booster.

Holly

[Spy Car]

I had chicken pox as a kid, intentionally exposed by my entirely well meaning mother who thought it was best to get it out of the way (no vaccine then).

Well last year I had an outbreak of shingles (caused by the once "dormant" chicken pox virus in my system). This shingles attack put me out of work for over a week, and kept me in the most extricating pain I've ever experienced far longer than that.

I'd immunize my child in a heartbeat.

Bill

[Capt_Uhura]

And with chicken pox decreasingly in the population, the incidence of shingles may in fact rise b/c it is thought that exposure to chicken pox is what helps older folk keep the pox virus dormant but every so often, challenging the immune system. So if you're not being exposed to the chicken pox as an adult, you lose your immunity to varicella, and hence shingles. So those who are not vaccinating their kids in the hope that they get chicken pox, if they want to ward off shingles, these kids, when adults, may require a varicella booster to ward off shingles unless of course more people stop vaccinating and chicken pox rises substantially in the population.

[Spy Car]

Very informative post Capt Uhura. I was unaware of the notion that continued exposure to the chicken pox virus might keep the immunity strong in those who had chicken pox, and help ward off shingles. Sounds reasonable.

I had (wrongly) thought that having had chicken pox as a child, I had a life-time of immunity from this virus. Getting shingles shattered that misconception. I knew nothing of shingles, other than it was a disease with a rather "silly" and innocuous sounding name, and I thought only really old people contracted it.

Sometimes lessons are learned the hard way. Evidently there is a vaccine or booster that is protective against shingles, at my next check-up this will be discussed with my physician. I'm what I'd call a pretty tough guy with a high pain threshold, and my experience with shingles brought me to the edge.

So I don't know if the best way to prevent a reoccurrence is to get a "booster" or to hang out at kids "pox-parties", but for any of you who have had chicken pox you might consider the options for keeping this virus at bay. Shingles is not something you want to endure...trust me!

Cheers,
Bill

[Capt_Uhura]

Spycar - I'm so sorry you had to endure that. It sounds horrible. Yes the booster to prevent shingles is in fact the varicella vax which is given to kids I do believe - I can't recall if it's a higher or lower dose than what kids get. But yes, it is thought that periodic exposure to the virus, boosts your immunity to the virus, so if the virus does re-awaken in your body, your immune system is primed to deal with it. So if chicken pox declines, the people who don't vaccinate their kids but get chicken pox naturally, are at increased risk for shingles since they won't be getting periodic re-exposure to the virus. I wish I could point you to some data but it's been some time since I read that data.

Now that you've had shingles are you at increased risk for getting it again?

[Spy Car]

Thanks for the kind thoughts Capt Uhura. One of the many nice features of being human is once pain goes away (and it has) we seem to forget about it pretty quickly. If that makes sense?

As to the question if having shingles makes one more (or less) likely to get it again? I honestly don't know. But it is something i really should find out about. One bout was more than enough.

Bill

[Perry]

I can't recall if it's a higher or lower dose than what kids get.The shingles vaccine is a higher dose than the chicken pox vaccine.

[summer]

You can get shingles just as easy from the vaccination as you can from the actual Chicken Pox disease. I already know of a few cases of children getting shingles in our local schools after having had the vaccination when they were younger. I never knew of children getting shingles before the vaccination came out.

[summer]

The other thing one needs to know when using the Chicken Pox vaccination is how it was developed....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
Additional controversy has arisen because cell lines derived from aborted fetal tissue were used in its development, and thus violates the ethics and beliefs of people who oppose the use of aborted fetal tissue in medical research.CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/humancell.htm)


If you say you are okay with the Chicken Pox vaccination, then you are saying you are OK with using this kind of technology. Perhaps you are, in which case, fine. But it is a little 2 faced to vote prolife or be prolife or against any of this kind of research if you are going to continue to use the results of this kind of technology.

[Capt_Uhura]

SpyCar - here's a short article for you. http://www.news-medical.net/?id=12896

Yes, makes sense that since the immune system is declining in adults, you'd need a higher dose of vaccine.

[Perry]

Yep- and it's also the reason it can't be used in kids.

[Capt_Uhura]

Summer - do you have any documentation that vax children are getting increased rates of shingles?

I found these articles:

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/WELCOME/immunizations/chickenpox.html

After having chickenpox, the chickenpox virus stays dormant in your body. In some children, it can become reactivated and cause shingles. The main symptoms of shingles is a rash on one side of the body that begins as a cluster of red bumps. These bumps then change into small blisters or vesicles that soon crust over. Your child may also feel itchy, but will otherwise be well. The rash usually continues to develop for a few days and then completely crust over and go away in about seven to ten days without treatment.

You can also get shingles after receiving the chickenpox vaccine, but it appears to be much less common than occurs in children that have a natural chickenpox infection. So decreasing your child's chance of getting shingles may be another good reason for getting the chickenpox vaccine.

http://www.newsforparents.org/expert_chicken_pox_vaccine.html

Another potential benefit of the vaccine is that, up to the present, there are 80 percent fewer cases of shingles in vaccinated children than in non-vaccinated children.

[TracyR]

I can commpletely understand why they would do this . With having an immune suppresed child myself . Some children who have immune disorders cannot take certain vaccinations either at the time they need to or just never . Not all chronically ill children are homeschooled either, many attend brick and mortar schools and honestly you don't know who those children are . They are not always the ones in the special ed rooms :>) You would never know that my daughter was born with several birth defects and a compromised immune system by looking at her .
So in that light I can understand . Even though chicken pox for the most part can be benign to most children , there is a population out there that those 'simple' viruses can hospitalize or kill .
Trust me this is coming from a mom who was very much against vaccinations until we had our youngest .

Also even after you've built up a natural immunity to chicken pox you are then at high risk at contracting shingles ( which is caused by the same chicken pox virus ) . This is an EXTREMELY painful illness . My mother in law is 66 and she workes in a nursing home and contracted this . Yes, she had the chicken pox as a child and thought she was totally immune to such things . WEll she wasn't and she was in just such immense pain ( and trust me she has a high tolerance to pain ) from it .
Now I've been doing my research and I don't really know at this point if the chicken pox vaccine would give a life long immunity or not ( remember the MMR when they though that would only to find out it didn't and there had to be 2nd boosters ? ) .
Either way I can understand why the school did it . Coming from a personal view of having a special needs child with physical disabilities .

[Cassie1]

My kids will be starting in a new school district so last week they got their 2nd varicella vaccination to "comply". One of the three had a mild local reaction.

Summer, I got shingles when I was in 8th grade as a result of chicken pox. That was back in 1984.

Hi Capt- I was wondering if it would be advisable for me to get varicella to ward off shingles when I get older, considering I had shingles as a child. As a child it wasn't too bad, just mild pain for a few hours and then a painless rash, but I know it can be much much worse as an adult.

In Japan, children are not required to get the chicken pox and mumps vaccines. Since these are vaccines that parents must pay for vice the free vaccines, most parents opt for natural immunity. The doctors often advise that natural immunity is better than the vaccine, so many are just following doctors' advice. There are outbreaks of chicken pox and vaccines in the preschools and elementary schools, but usually it is not a problem. Moms often schedule playdates with infected children to help their children contract the diseases- lol. I believe that it is important to develop immunity as a child, either by natural exposure or the vaccine- whichever is more predominant in the country in which you live. In the US where the majority of children are vaccinated, it is more difficult to contract the disease and develop natural immunity. In Japan, if the child does not contract the disease when young, most parents then opt for the vaccine before the child leaves elementary school to prevent problems with contracting the disease later in life.

[Breann in WA]

In Japan, children are not required to get the chicken pox and mumps vaccines. Since these are vaccines that parents must pay for vice the free vaccines, most parents opt for natural immunity. The doctors often advise that natural immunity is better than the vaccine, so many are just following doctors' advice. There are outbreaks of chicken pox and vaccines in the preschools and elementary schools, but usually it is not a problem. Moms often schedule playdates with infected children to help their children contract the diseases- lol. I believe that it is important to develop immunity as a child, either by natural exposure or the vaccine- whichever is more predominant in the country in which you live. In the US where the majority of children are vaccinated, it is more difficult to contract the disease and develop natural immunity. In Japan, if the child does not contract the disease when young, most parents then opt for the vaccine before the child leaves elementary school to prevent problems with contracting the disease later in life.


Thank you, Cassie, that's very interesting. That would lead one to understand that the US will have, if it doesn't already, a significantly higher rate of shingles in adults who were never afforded the oportunity to develop a natural immunity as children.

While my dc are young, I'm going to try to get them a chickenpox playdate. If we can't build a natural immunity while they're young, I guess we'll deal with that when the time comes.

[Liz Mc in SC]

When my dd was 10 mon. old I purposefully exposed her to chicken pox, exactly 21 days later she broke out with them. I was thrilled -- the vaccine was being used more and more and I didn't want her to have it either. She is 12 now -- and last summer had her first case of shingles.

The Dr. swears she would not have had shingles had she been vaccinated. So now I'm being encouraged to have my 10 yr old son vaccinated. Shingles aren't fun. And though my daughters case was mild, it was still extreemly painful. I still don't want my son to be vaccinated.

As a parent I think we just want to get it right. And only you know what's right for your child. If it goes against the public norm, than accept that you have to adjust to them, because they will not adjust to you. Think of this time with your dd as a special time you wouldn't have otherwise had.

[Capt_Uhura]

That would lead one to understand that the US will have, if it doesn't already, a significantly higher rate of shingles in adults who were never afforded the opportunity to develop a natural immunity as children.


Here is the current dogma. Shingles occurs when immunity to varicella wanes with age. It is thought that elderly who are periodically exposed to varicella, for ex: by playing w/ grandkids who have chicken pox, are naturally boosting their immunity. Hence those folks do not get shingles. So if chicken pox is rare in the community, elderly folk who had chicken pox in childhood, do not get that natural immunity boost, hence increase in rate of shingles. To prevent, there is a vaccine (higher dose of childhood varicella vaccine) for the elderly to give them that boost they are not getting through natural exposure. For those that never had chicken pox, they can't get shingles.

[teela72]

I know and understand you feel like the system is trying to control you, but if they had this vaccine when we were kids do you think our moms would have kept it from us. I don't think God invented the Chicken pox. What a horrible thing to make your child go through. Almost every childhood disease has an inoculation and we don't hesitate to give it to them. Why should this one be any different? The system is trying to protect all.

[manylilblessings]

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb83848.php

Here's the documentation that shingles is on the rise in children, and it's being attributed to the increased rate of varicella vaccine.

[Cassie1]

From the article posted upstream ( http://www.news-medical.net/?id=12896 )

"The principal reason that vaccinees in Japan maintained high levels of immunity 20 years following vaccination was that only 1 in 5 (or 20%) of Japanese children were vaccinated," he said. "So those vaccinated received immunologic boosting from contact with children with natural chickenpox. But the universal varicella vaccination program in the U.S. will nearly eradicate this natural boosting mechanism and will leave our population vulnerable to shingles epidemics."

This has also been experience in Japan; it seems to me that around 1/4 of Japanese children get varicella. The same is the case for mumps vaccine in Japan, although mumps doesn't have a subsequent occurance like pox/shingles.

I also wonder whether contracting shingles as a child (as I did after having chicken pox) would increase my chances for shingles in the future. I don't have evidence, but I would tend to think that the shingles would have been a natural boost to my immunity. Also living in Japan may have helped me and my children :) . I know that many of my childrens' classmates have exposed my vaccinated children to pox!

I just heard that one of my children's classmates got the mumps vaccine in the the time frame between being exposed to the mumps and exhibiting the symptoms. He developed mumps just a few days after the vaccine, so he really got a double dose... poor kid.

[Capt_Uhura]

I just want to clarify that article. I posted about this above. The varicella vax is not causing shingles directly ie vaccinated kids are not later getting shingles due to the vaccine. Due to a decrease in varicella in the population, people who have had either chicken pox or have been vaccinated, are not getting a natural boost to their immunity to varicella via exposure to infected individuals. A simple booster w/ the vax will take care of this issue. the other option is to to not vaccinate until kids are older and allow varicella to rise again in order to boost immunity in individuals who have had chicken pox or have been vaccinated.

[Jen3boys]

I just want to clarify that article. I posted about this above. The varicella vax is not causing shingles directly ie vaccinated kids are not later getting shingles due to the vaccine. Due to a decrease in varicella in the population, people who have had either chicken pox or have been vaccinated, are not getting a natural boost to their immunity to varicella via exposure to infected individuals. A simple booster w/ the vax will take care of this issue. the other option is to to not vaccinate until kids are older and allow varicella to rise again in order to boost immunity in individuals who have had chicken pox or have been vaccinated.
My kids both had the vaccine and later, a very mild case of chicken pox. Does this mean they're less likely to get shingles?

[tibbyl]

I signed a waiver on the varicella vaccine for my 1st grade dd because I would much rather she had the disease and developed a natural immunity as God seems to have intended with this disease.

Because there's been an outbreak at her ps, they're now sending home for 21 days every child who doesn't have 2 shots against chicken pox! I don't really mind this because she gets the bulk of her education at home anyway, but I'm distraught that I feel I'm being bullied by the public school system. Nearly every adult I know went through chicken pox as a child. What's wrong with that?

I know serious complications can arrise, but that could be said about many other illnesses kids get as well. I dealt with chicken pox in my older ds years ago. I'd much rather do it again than inject what I feel is an unneccessary vaccine into my daughter.

I wanted to get some of your thoughts on this ps policy and on some of the decisions you've made regarding vaccinations for your children.

TIA

Numerous states have laws stating that the waivers are invalid during times of epidemic.

[sarahli]

I had my titers tested, and I did not have immunity (I had a very mild case at 2 yo). It was an easy decision, I received the two vaccinations, and my son was vaccinated. I definitely don't want chicken pox at this age, nor do I want my son to give them to me.

[Breann in WA]

Numerous states have laws stating that the waivers are invalid during times of epidemic.


I'll look for that. I've been wondering how our county could get around state law.

Thanks.

[sweetbaby]

I have been on both ends. I am a nurse but also a mom. I have had my younger children vaccinated after my olders dc, who I waivered from getting the vac, had contracted an extreme case of chicken pox. They were extremely ill. My younger children who were vaccinated did not even contract it during this time so I am grateful for that. I am now for it. The vac can actually lessen a case of pox compared to not having the vac or prevent an outbreak altogether. Severe pox can lead to death.

[sweetbasil]

The Dr. swears she would not have had shingles had she been vaccinated.

Your doctor is misinformed, and I would do some of my own research so that I could be armed with facts before going back to the office.

Shingles is on the rise, especially in children, BECAUSE of the vaccine. Since the wild strains of varicella are becoming more rare, people are not getting the regular natural "boosters" that they used to (i.e. asymptomatic infection). Regular exposure prevents shingles.

Additionally, the efficacy of the vax is highly questionable. The reason more and more boosters keep being added to the schedule is because we are finding that the vaccine immunity lasts much less time than hoped.

Also understand that the weaker the immune response, the more likely one is to contract shingles at a later date. Natural infection nearly always elicits a stronger immune response than a vaccine, even though the Varicella vax contains the live virus. Natural infection is longer lasting, as well.

There is also the ethical issues of aborted fetal cell lines, and the toxicity of the vaccine ingredients, but those are topics for another time.

HTH someone! :)

[Spy Car]

I posted earlier in the thread that I'm pro-vaccine (in part because I got shingles recently) but after reading some of the posts here it does have me "re-thinking" my position with an open mind.

I also watched a long interview with a Naturopath recently. He was very opposed to the vaccine, feeling it was imperative that the immune system needed to be challenged and strengthened in youth, to allow it to fight not only viruses, but also things such as cancers.

I will keep my thinking cap on. I'm quite sure I never want to experience shingles again, that is for sure!

Bill

[dwkilburn1]

This is the one vaccine that I will not revaccinate my cancer kiddo with, because it did not work for any of them. My DD got the cp, but her case was mild, and my middle son got the cp from the vaccine (cp has an incubation period of 21 days, and does anyone want to guess how long from the shot date until the first spots?). My youngest son did get the pox while on chemo and we were blessed that he did not have any issues from it, but I don't know if it was because he got the shot or if that would have been his response to it without the shot since his tither could have been destroyed by the chemo.

My opinion would obviously be different if my kids had suffered from a severe case. There is really no way to know how a kiddo is going to react to the vaccine or the disease, so it comes down to what we feel is right for our kids.

As far as kids being sent home from school I don't know how I feel about that these days. My youngest being exposed to some of those bugs could be deadly, but by the time it was discovered in the child that started the outbreak everyone would already have been exposed so what is gained by sending those not vaccinated home? Also, those that are not vaccinated against the flu are not sent home when there is a flu outbreak and that kills alot of people every year, so why pick on the cp.

Alot to think about that is for sure!

Just my 2 cents.