So can we start discussing LCC2 now?

[dragons in the flower bed]

It's the two-year-old's turn to be sick, today. "Help me to sit, Mama," he says, which really means he wants me to be his chair. That's downright serendipitous, because my copy of the revised edition came today.

I skimmed, then turned to the 3rd and 6th grade suggestions. I was initially shocked at the 3rd grade literature recommendation, until I thought about it a bit. That author is so thick and rich, but I guess, taking it slowly, with help, my soon to be eight-year-old could handle it.

I was thrilled to see detailed art and music recommendations.

The self-ed plan looks doable, which I should have expected, given that "doable" is my number one praise of LCC in general.

The recommendations for starting in the middle soothed my anxiety regarding DSS10 and are what we will be doing.

I was not expecting PlaidDad to recommend anything I had never heard of -- I spend embarrassingly large amounts of time stalking the interwebz for resources -- but he did. Now I must carve out a little bit more book budget.

From the first edition, I may continue using all the Modern Studies living books stuff.

I still wish some classical educator somewhere would recommend bringing astronomy back, but I'm happy PlaidDad did give that ancient and honorable member of the quadrivium at least a little bit of love.

So what does everyone else think? Most of you have had it for longer than me.

[profmom]

Well, I'm wondering why the change in math recommendations for elementary. (Should I say which program was recommended in the first edition, but isn't mentioned in the 2nd?)

I really like the 2nd edition!

[Cadam]

I can not afford my copy yet (must get dh to unlock the safe so I can check the budget....) you are all just cruel! That is all I have to say.
















happy reading!;)

[Robin in DFW]

I'm really curious. I have never seen LCC1 so I don't know what the differences are, other than where the updates occur (this is listed on the MP website).

Both my dc have done an eclectic mix, but LCC has piqued my interest.

Robin

[Faithr]

Well, I've been reading it in little chunks at a time, so I don't know if I've got the big picture. I have to say that I really liked the way LCC I had Modern Studies and I plan to keep that in our curriculum. Also, I looked at some of the 7th and 8th grade recommendations and I just don't agree with some of it. I don't think 7th graders should be reading Flannery O'Conner for example. I think it is a bit young for To Kill a Mockingbird. I mean there is a rape in that book and I think a lot of 7th graders are not ready for such intensity. I save it for the end of 8th grade or summer after. I just think it is way over their heads and I think 7th graders need lots of loving encouragement as they navigate adolescence and having them read literature that is too mature for them is harmful. To it is just inappropriate and I see no reason to rush them into mature themes. And then I have stuff that is quirky to my family. We don't like reading Shakespeare stories out loud. My kids find them confusing (and they are, unless you are listening to Jim Weiss retell them on audio). I like to wait until the kids are in 7th or 8th grade and then try to take them to a couple of local productions. But that is neither here nor there, people like to approach Shakespeare in their own way.

I also question the focus on civics and government in 8th grade, simply from a high school credit point of view. Those are typically high school level courses and something colleges would like to see on transcript, so again I would wait until later to teach those subjects.

I love the advice for large families and I also love the tidiness of the layout of each suggestion. It really made planning easier for me. For whatever resources I was adapting to LCC, I just went a long with PlaidDad's grid layout for each grade and just plugged in what I was replacing. It really made the planning process much more succinct. For that alone the price of the book was worth it!

I think it is a wonderful resource and I like the way Plaiddad tries to keep it simple!

[elegantlion]

I spent my free time this weekend with the book, a white board, and amazon.com online. The chapter on starting with an older beginner was most helpful to me. I'm looking forward to implementing this method this fall. We are reading some of the literature selections we missed over the summer.

Here's a tip. The covers are identical except the 2nd edition has the author's name on it. Just it case you're flipping back and forth between the two.

[St. Theophan Academy]

Well, I am just happy my copy FINALLY came - I was so hoping to read it over the weekend, but just got it today. That said, I have read the first 3 chapters this afternoon, and am skimming the curric. sections. I really like the way he rewrote the first 3 chapters. They are a more thorough explanation for someone not sold on the idea, I think. I too was surprised he narrowed it down to only 1 program suggested for Math and for the progym. I like the history suggestions, and the 2 "cycle" approach, which is sort of what I have been realizing we would need to do anyway. Well, I am off to read some more!

[St. Theophan Academy]

For math he suggested Rays Arithmetics or Singapore, and maybe Rod and Staff? But he left it pretty open, basically saying select one that fits your needs and focuses on the basics.

[Mama Lynx]

I am very fond of the Moshe Astronomy book Drew recommends. There is a classical astronomy curriculum available ... Signs and Seasons I think it's called ... but it's heavily Christian, IIRC. I would love to look at it to see if I can adapt it. I agree with you about astronomy.

I think we read TKAM in 8th grade ... but I agree, I am going to modify the lit selections. But you should always modify, to suit the needs of your children.

What do y'all think of the new history plan?

[elegantlion]

The new history will work good for us. We just spent a whole year on US history and are starting Ancients for the first time next fall. We may be about a year behind in the history recs for the next couple of years, but probably catch up by 8th grade.

Part of the appeal of the whole program for me is that I feel like I can now stay ahead of my son's education without feeling overwhelmed. I've already been adding titles to my paperbackswap wish list. I also like the addition of specific study guides.

[Plaid Dad]

I too was surprised he narrowed it down to only 1 program suggested for Math and for the progym.

Actually, there are alternatives listed for both subjects, but they are not reflected in the charts due to space considerations. :)

I tried very hard to make it clear that my recommendations are not gospel. If a particular curriculum is working for you, there's no need to switch just because it's not my top pick. Likewise if you prefer to read certain books earlier, later, or not at all, that's always okay. Same with subjects like economics or civics; some states teach them in middle school, others in high school. You can always switch them around to meet your own needs.

Remember William Wallace (http://www.latincentered.com/node/98). What a wrote about him two years ago still holds (only my dd is older). :)

[TracyR]

Wahaaaa ! I haven't ordered it yet ! You guys are so mean ;>)

[profmom]

Wahaaaa ! I haven't ordered it yet ! You guys are so mean ;>)

I'm sorry to those who don't have it yet. Maybe we should wait a bit longer to discuss it. :)

Also, I didn't mean to sound negative earlier. I too love the rewrite of the first chapters. If you haven't ordered, I definitely recommend it! There's no rush to discuss it -- we have all summer. :D

[PollyOR]

Yeah! It finally arrived. Tried to read it tonight while babysitting granddaughter. Um, it didn't work. She wanted my full attention ;).

[kellycbr]

So the waiting begins....I'd still like to hear everyone's opinion. :bigear: We are just about to jump in with our DS(7.5) in September. I think we're going to do Lively Latin and SOTW and VP history cards. DS is just crazy about the Romans, so it seemed a good idea to learn Latin at the same time ("Wow! The same language the Romans spoke!") I'm hoping Plaid Dad's book is going to help me figure this out.

[GailV]

I finally had a chance to sit down with it last night and start jotting down notes.

Due to the circumstances (sitting in a waiting room with people around me talking), I skipped over the first several chapters and went right for the subjects that most interested me.

LOVE the chapter on older beginners. It struck me as the down-and-dirty what-you-really-NEED-to-cover chapter. LOVE the info on setting up my own study program.

I still feel like I need more more more on how to go through the literature with my kids. But, I was sort of skipping around in my reading while people around me were talking, so I may have missed what I was looking for. I understand what to do for my to-be-3rd grader; I was hoping for more direction on HOW to discuss lit with my to-be-7th grader. Part of the problem is that I'm very timid in this area. By contrast, I skimmed the math, science, and Latin sections, feeling like I have a good grip on how I want to handle those in our home.

More later when I get some uninterrupted reading time (hahahaha, as if that's gonna happen anytime soon!).

ETA: I can't compare with the 1st ed. since I got rid of my copy to make room for the new edition.

[runningirl71]

LOVE the chapter on older beginners. It struck me as the down-and-dirty what-you-really-NEED-to-cover chapter. LOVE the info on setting up my own study program.

I still feel like I need more more more on how to go through the literature with my kids.

This is what stood out to me as well when reading it for the first time. I took some time out this morning to peruse. I did notice the literature selections to be really "weighty" for the age range, such as The Scarlet Letter for 6th grade? I realize there was another choice highlighted as well. And, I need a "how to" guide to teaching literature to get the most out of it. I LOVE literature, and if I could do a masters, this is what I would do it in. I just don't want my kids reading good or even great books, I want to have meaningful discussions about them, I want my kids changed, moved, empowered by reading them. I realize The Well Educated Mind and How to Read a Good Book should help in these areas. I just get overwhelmed when I think how much I really need to prepare to teach my kids well.

But, I really like the philosophy behind LCC. I highlighted:

"Education should not only train the mind, but ennoble the spirit. To borrow a felicitious Ignatian phrase, education is a matter of formation, not information."

PlaidDad goes on to say: "We do not educate to create more efficient workers or more satisfied consumers, but better-and freer-persons." p. 41

I agree with this in theory, and I'm still chewing on this. I guess my question would be how this really plays out in today's society, when the majority is not focusing on education in this way? If I decide to go down the LCC road with dds (10 and 3) what will their life look like, how will I have shaped them, prepared them, when they are ready to go off to college? I am still grappling with this bigger idea of education as formation and the practicality of preparing for college. I would love to hear views and thoughts on this.

As for how LCC is laid out, I really like it. I now have to decide how to jump in so to say. We've been following TWTM pretty closely for 3 years now and are in our last phase of the 4 year history cycle. I am just now sure where to start if I decide to implement LCC ideas.

I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this. And, I'm a newbie with LCC, never had the first edition so I can't compare it either.

[elegantlion]

Here's a brief synopsis of why I am excited about this type of education for my son.

I used to work for a veterinarian who had received a true classical education. I wish I had paid more attention to his discussion on it, but I was young and unmarried and didn't care at the time. His personality is similar to my dh's, who has a similar personality to my ds.

So as I reflect back on my former employee's life I can see how it was greatly enhanced by his education. He was a fighter pilot, then went to school to become a vet.

My dh is very much a non-conformist. He'd rather make his own path through a jungle than take the easy route. He's self-employed, has a choleric personality, and will shoot first and aim later. He has stated that he felt his own education was inferior and did not teach him how to deal with real life. His father died when he was little so this strong male personality had no one to show him how to "be a man".

My own ds has a similar personality and page 44 (2nd paragraph) pretty much sums up why I feel this is an important education. If he has been educated to bring about strength of character I believe he can learn about anything.

[happygrrl]

(singing) I bought mine toda-ay! I bought mine toda-ay! I will join this discussion soon!

[runningirl71]

My own ds has a similar personality and page 44 (2nd paragraph) pretty much sums up why I feel this is an important education. If he has been educated to bring about strength of character I believe he can learn about anything.

Okay, I had read Ch. 1 and perused the schedules and later chapters. This afternoon I read ch. 2 and can see where you are coming from. PlaidDad answered a lot of my questions in that 2nd chapter.

Our family has been pretty non-conformist and counter culture in many ways, so I don't mind doing something "different" than a modern type education. I already am "neo-classical." I'm just trying to validate the jump to neo-classical to Latin centered. For my OWN self education, it so fits. I just have to make sure that it is best for my daughters too. I REALLY REALLY resonate with the philosophy and what is said on paper in LCC is what I've been thinking in my head for quite some time. I guess, if I switch over, I want to do so whole heartedly, knowing that we're in this for the long haul. I want to be committed. I am tired of trying this and that and would like to just do something I can stick with. My goals for my daughters education really fits with LCC. I really don't know why I'm wavering here. Just trying to process it all . . . I'm sure I'll have a better picture when I've read the book cover to cover!

If anyone wants to help with history advice, I'd appreciate it. If I switched from TWTM 4 year history cycle to LCC, how should I go about doing it? DD will be in 5th grade in the fall and we're supposed to be studying modern history. Is it best to stick with this 4 year cycle until 6th or switch over now? Any suggestions?:)

[runningirl71]

The new history will work good for us. We just spent a whole year on US history and are starting Ancients for the first time next fall. We may be about a year behind in the history recs for the next couple of years, but probably catch up by 8th grade.

Part of the appeal of the whole program for me is that I feel like I can now stay ahead of my son's education without feeling overwhelmed. I've already been adding titles to my paperbackswap wish list. I also like the addition of specific study guides.

ElegantLion,

Since we're in the same boat here (both starting LCC and both having 5th graders) can I ask you what your year will look like? Thanks!

[elegantlion]

ElegantLion,

Since we're in the same boat here (both starting LCC and both having 5th graders) can I ask you what your year will look like? Thanks!


I'll send you a PM, we seem to have a lot in common.

[clwcain]

I'm not sure what to discuss. :)

It's well written, forcefully presented, and clear. I appreciate the suggested examples of text choices within the scope & sequence of the curriculum. I appreciate the repeated advice to adapt as necessary.

I'm very happy with it.

[dragons in the flower bed]

My own ds has a similar personality and page 44 (2nd paragraph) pretty much sums up why I feel this is an important education. If he has been educated to bring about strength of character I believe he can learn about anything.

I love that paragraph.

My father's argument against unschooling me (which he eventually did anyway) was that I had to learn the discipline of getting up and going to work everyday, learning to make myself do something I didn't want to do. That is disciplining a person into a slave.

A true classical education also disciplines a person -- like a physical trainer, exercising those muscles they'll need to break the chains of slavery.

Whereas unschooling . . . well, I was willing to break the chains. Not so much able.

LCC2 names and refers to this distinction between discipline-to-drudgery and discipline-to-empower much better and more often, I think, than the LCC1.

[dragons in the flower bed]

There is a classical astronomy curriculum available ... Signs and Seasons I think it's called ... but it's heavily Christian, IIRC. I would love to look at it to see if I can adapt it.

I went and looked at Signs and Seasons sample PDFs. Have you done so? The content seemed to me to be just like every other astronomy guide for multiple ages. It wasn't all that dissimilar to The Kids Book of the Night Sky, except that the pages were less busy, and the font and illustrations kind of looked classical. The chapter titles were Christian. Other than that, I'm not sure what makes it a classical or a Christian astronomy course.

What do y'all think of the new history plan?

I suspect everyone will appreciate that there's a sturdy chronology to it. I also was glad to see the embedded suggestions for extra books.

[sailmom]

I'm glad you brought this up! I got my book a few days ago, but I've been keeping quiet about it so as not to give away any of the good bits. ;)

When I got it, I skimmed the first part and jumped right to the curriculum section, so I could see the changes. Then I went back through and actually read the book. :blush:

I really like the new subject breakdown. It makes more sense to me, and I think it'll fit my family very well. We were essentially following a similar block schedule anyway.

I also like how the newer edition builds on the previous one, rather than feeling like a whole new plan, and I think it explains the philosophy behind LCC more succinctly than the previous edition. I also appreciated the suggestions for jumping into the middle of things. Those are really helpful in figuring out the must-haves, as I've had to finesse things a bit with my two older ones and don't follow the outline exactly.

The only (very minor) issue I have is that I'm not too crazy about a couple of the suggestions (specifically, the lower level geography and 8th grade history books). *However,* there are some other recommendations in the expanded descriptions of each subject that I really, really liked and can easily adapt to my needs.

So I'm happy with the new edition. I do wish it had a different cover from the old one though. I keep pulling the old one off the shelf by accident. :lol:

[elegantlion]

So I'm happy with the new edition. I do wish it had a different cover from the old one though. I keep pulling the old one off the shelf by accident. :lol:

Drew's name is on the cover of the 2nd edition. I had the same problem.

[runningirl71]

Remember William Wallace (http://www.latincentered.com/node/98). What a wrote about him two years ago still holds (only my dd is older). :)

Thanks Plaid Dad for suggesting this read. I read it and needed to hear it. I'm one of these "I've got to follow this to a T in order for it to work" kinda gals, and I think I just need to settle down a bit! :)

[sailmom]

And, I need a "how to" guide to teaching literature to get the most out of it. I LOVE literature, and if I could do a masters, this is what I would do it in. I just don't want my kids reading good or even great books, I want to have meaningful discussions about them, I want my kids changed, moved, empowered by reading them.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I recommend the book Deconstructing Penguins: Parents, Kids and the Bond of Reading by Lawrence Goldstone for really learning how to talk to kids about literature. I think it offers very practical, very understandable advice in helping kids (and parents) unwrap a text and dig below the surface story.

While I think the Well-Educated Mind and How to Read a Book are wonderful resources, Deconstructing Penguins specifically addresses unlocking literature with kids. I have that graduate degree, and I still got a TON out of this book. Highly recommended. :D

[GailV]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I recommend the book Deconstructing Penguins: Parents, Kids and the Bond of Reading by Lawrence Goldstone for really learning how to talk to kids about literature.


Actually, I've read this and STILL need remedial help. Sigh.



The only (very minor) issue I have is that I'm not too crazy about a couple of the suggestions (specifically, the lower level geography <snip>

And so, for those of us who seem to have blown off doing ANY geography and think it might be time to do something, what would you recommend?

[Mama Lynx]

I went and looked at Signs and Seasons sample PDFs. Have you done so? The content seemed to me to be just like every other astronomy guide for multiple ages. It wasn't all that dissimilar to The Kids Book of the Night Sky, except that the pages were less busy, and the font and illustrations kind of looked classical. The chapter titles were Christian. Other than that, I'm not sure what makes it a classical or a Christian astronomy course.


The front page of the website states the author's intent that this is a curriculum that teaches "the Biblical basis of astronomy." He calls it a Christian program, too. So, I figure that makes it Christian. I was willing to take him his word. Labelling a program "Christian" doesn't in any way make me turn away from it, but I do like to know upfront what worldview a program will assume/promote.

What makes it a classical program is its emphasis on naked-eye astronomy, studying the stars like the ancients did; plus, its emphasis on the history of astronomy.

You are right. There are other books out there. I prefer the Moshe book. But this will be an excellent resource for many. YMMV

[St. Theophan Academy]

woops, posted double - :)

[St. Theophan Academy]

Sorry Plaid Dad - I saw that as I read further. I was focusing on the charts in the beginning, but realized later that you did include other suggestions, but just focused on a single choice in the charts. Did not mean to misrepresent :) I love the schedules in the back, that was a great addition to the book.

[Shelly in MD]

I'm waiting - impatiently, I might add :w00t: - for my copy to arrive! KY to MD shouldn't take TOO long, should it?!!

Shelly

[sabrina]

Somebody please help a mother who has been living under a rock - what is LCC?

[sabrina]

Oops! Can you tell that I am new at this. First of all I don't know any of the anacronyms and secondly I don't know how to erase a post after I accidentally put one in twice! I will learn. Thanks for your patience.

[genie]

Somebody please help a mother who has been living under a rock - what is LCC?


The Latin-Centered Curriculum (http://memoriapress.com/descriptions/Latin-Centered.html) authored by Plaid Dad aka Andrew Campbell. :001_smile:

[sailmom]

And so, for those of us who seem to have blown off doing ANY geography and think it might be time to do something, what would you recommend?

I think I'm going to use the Parsons book recommended in the chapter on jumping into things in the middle. I haven't done much in the way of geography either, so I just bought that book and it looks really good. I have the book recommended for 1st grade also, and I do really like that one, so my plan is to have the older ones read the first book and then do the projects in the second book with my ds. Maybe we'll read Material World alongside?

Sorry the Penguin book didn't help you out! Unfortunately, I can't think of anything else at the moment. :blushing:

[Mama Lynx]

If anyone wants to help with history advice, I'd appreciate it. If I switched from TWTM 4 year history cycle to LCC, how should I go about doing it? DD will be in 5th grade in the fall and we're supposed to be studying modern history. Is it best to stick with this 4 year cycle until 6th or switch over now? Any suggestions?:)

I don't think there's any "best" way to do it - it comes down to what you want to cover with your child when.

I thought long and hard about switching to the history outline in LCC2, but in the end, I think we're going to stick with the four-year WTM cycle for history. My mind is set in that mold, and it's stuck ;-)

[Carol in Cal.]

[QUOTE=GailV;261355]

LOVE the chapter on older beginners. It struck me as the down-and-dirty what-you-really-NEED-to-cover chapter. LOVE the info on setting up my own study program.

I still feel like I need more more more on how to go through the literature with my kids. But, I was sort of skipping around in my reading while people around me were talking, so I may have missed what I was looking for. I understand what to do for my to-be-3rd grader; I was hoping for more direction on HOW to discuss lit with my to-be-7th grader. Part of the problem is that I'm very timid in this area. By contrast, I skimmed the math, science, and Latin sections, feeling like I have a good grip on how I want to handle those in our home.

QUOTE]

Hey Gail, Have you looked at the literature reading and discussion section for logic stage children in TWTM lately? I recently reread it, and I am really kicking myself for letting 2-3 years go by since the last time, during which this has become tremendously relevant and applicable with my DD and our literature group. (She will be entering 7th grade next Fall and is almost 12.)

It really enables you to get your arms around the totality of it, while listing enough specific discussion questions to get your conversations going. It is much more thorough, complete, and usable than I had recalled.

I also found the Rafe Esquith books helpful in that regard, although I don't entirely agree with his literature choices (Autobiography of Malcolm X was not read by my DD in 5th grade, thank you very much, although it probably will be in 8th or 9th.)

I also have been using Figuratively Speaking as a guide to teaching and using literary elements. I don't much care for the examples or written work, but we pick one element and discuss it, define it, think of examples, skim the written work to see if it is helpful, and then review previously taught elements, pretty regularly. Then I try to work these into our literary discussions so that they become the tools that they should be, rather than new words to learn and forget.

I also read to DD, almost every day, in addition to her assigned reading. I usually read books that are above her normal level or that I want to discuss as we go along. We tend not to talk about these in a literary sense as much as about vocabulary and 'did you understand what just happened even though it was very very subtle, or even though it was in old-fashioned, formal English?' sense. However, when we finish those, we discuss them in a way that puts them into context with the period and with other reading that we have done. I also read her books from the historical period that she is currently studying, in addition to her assigned books on that topic that she reads herself. This means that I'm usually reading her four books plus occasional forays into Figuratively Speaking. These are a science book (that I read and explain and try to pin her down to learn), a history non-fiction book, a historical fiction book, and a literature book that is pretty hard. Then in addition to those, she is usually studying a science book (she is not that great at learning science from reading it), a historical fiction or biography book or a history spine, and a literature book that we are going to discuss--in addition to any books that she reads on her own for pleasure.

She also participates in a Junior Great Books coop, but I don't regard that as really all that crucial.

HTH!

[GailV]

I think I'm going to use the Parsons book recommended in the chapter on jumping into things in the middle.
<snip>

Ah, see, this is what happens from not paying attention while reading. I'd like to think I'd have eventually caught on, but who knows.


Hey Gail, Have you looked at the literature reading and discussion section for logic stage children in TWTM lately? I recently reread it, and I am really kicking myself for letting 2-3 years go by since the last time, during which this has become tremendously relevant and applicable with my DD and our literature group. (She will be entering 7th grade next Fall and is almost 12.)

<more snips>

Wow! Thanks so much.

Actually I just returned the new ed. of TWTM to the library when LCC arrived, so shame on me. I'll have to get it back out, and start exploring the other options you listed.

Y'all are awesome.

[PollyOR]

Drew has written a great article! You've got to read it. Freedom! (http://www.latincentered.com/node/337)

Drew, thank you! I have to admit that I freaked out when I saw the current scope and sequence with all of the literature included. Reading the article brought a sense of peace. :)