Back to the organic milk question...

[Robin in Tx]

The recent thread on organic milk caused me to look up the challenges/complaints against some of the organic milk producers (several of you talked about how bad Horizon's reputation is). After reading about it, I began to think I might want to consider organic milk just to support the ethical treatment of animals. I feel stronger about that issue than the actual organic issue. The only problem is, we haven't liked the flavor of organic milk whenever we've tried it. It has a very strong flavor to us, almost what milk tastes like right when it's turning bad. Does anyone else have this problem? If so, what has your solution been? Are there any brands that are not as strongly flavored as others?

For those in Texas, what about Promised Land? (not organic, but I think they adhere to the ethical treatment standards... not sure... anyone know?)

BTW, our preference is 1% milk.


Thanks,
Robin

[Andie]

Try mixing it half and half with regular commercial milk for awhile. I happened to like the change, but a few of my children didn't. It didn't take long at all to adjust.

Now, going from skim to whole for me :::shudder::: That was hard.

[Lisa at Home]

We have given up on animal products altogether because of inhumane treatment not of just animals, but the working conditions of the humans.

You could try half milk/half rice milk for things like cereal where the milk can be tasted, and use the milk full strength for cooking until you get used to it.

If you do try the rice milk, the refrigerated kind tastes better than the asceptically sealed kind.

Thanks for caring!!!!!:D

~Lisa

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

We have given up on animal products altogether because of inhumane treatment not of just animals, but the working conditions of the humans.

~Lisa

Lisa, do you think the folks harvesting the rice have an easier time of it than the dairy farmers or the helpers they hire? Or the folks who process the rice at he factories?

I'm curious what's different from a good milk co-op and an agribusiness model of rice production.

[Robin in Tx]

This is a good point, Pam. I think that any agribusiness has the potential of treating it's workers poorly, just like any other business. Especially the migrant farm worker.

I was just reading the following website re: Borden organics:

http://bordenorganic.com/livingwell/

There was concern that Borden is owned by the same company that owns Horizon, which was so heavily criticized. But unless the website is flat out lying about the treatment of its herds, I wonder if the same criticisms can be said of the Borden line? If what they say is true, then I would think this label would be a major improvement over other commercial labels (if you want to see the cows pastured, etc.).

Is there more to the story than meets the eye?

Robin

[Renee in FL]

I'd rather be a migrant worker in a field than a worker in a slaughter plant any day! LOL

What Pam said is true, though. Most people don't think about it because most agricultural workers are not American. I don't think this is as true for dairy farms, though.

[mcconnellboys]

I don't know if this is feasible, cost-wise, if you drink a lot of milk, but our area health food stores have Mennonite milk available that is very good.

Regena

[Heather in OK]

Are there any dairy's around you?

[Doran]

The only problem is, we haven't liked the flavor of organic milk whenever we've tried it. It has a very strong flavor to us, almost what milk tastes like right when it's turning bad.


Robin -- by chance could you say more about WHEN and FROM WHICH COMPANY you purchased the milk you tried? Have you tried more than once, or more than one brand? I ask because I know that cow's milk from grass fed cows will take on certain flavors depending on the time of year. The first time I bought raw milk for our family, it happened to be springtime, and the milk had a decided onion flavor to it -- from the wild onions in the pasture where the cows grazed. It changed taste altogether later in the year. I *doubt* this is the issue with what you've tried because I believe most organic milk is probably pooled from several farms and sold to the larger companies. I was just curious about the whole flavor thing.

Honestly, I can't quite figure out how it tastes so different to you. I guess we've been drinking organic milk for so long that I just don't notice the difference. Wonder if you did a blind test...do you think you're just expecting it to taste bad? I'm not doubting you. Just having a hard time imagining that the milk would taste bad. Maybe it WAS bad? Any chance of that? :o

Doran

[Lisa at Home]

I won't deny that standing all day in a rice paddy somewhere in the sun sounds like a pleasant task, if that's how it is still done. Somehow I am picturing large farm equipment, though. A quick google search did not yield much in the way of results, but I will continue to look.

The picture I had in my mind was not particularly hard labor so much as physically dangerous task of taking down a fearful animal and the involvment of knives with which to do that. I was thinking more along the lines of being hurt by an animal, as opposed to working in swealtering heat.

It's just the lesser of two evils in my mind. I can't save the world.:(

~Lisa

[Janet in Toronto]

I missed the previous discussion on organic milk, but this site (http://www.cornucopia.org/dairysurvey/index.html)has an interesting set of ratings on various "dairies".

Janet

[Lisa at Home]

that in making my comment to the OP, I merely intended to let her know that in drinking organic milk, that she was not *just* helping animals, but that she was *also* helping the people who are abused by the system in the corporate meat/dairy industry by not supporting them.

In fact, I think it would be great not only for the OP to purchase organic products, but to write a letter to her former brand of milk letting them know she was making the switch.

By the way, I just sent a letter to the company whose rice milk we most frequently drink concerning their policies on rice harvesting and working conditions. Not that I actually think that all companies abide by their policies, but I am interested to hear what they say.

~Lisa

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

It's just the lesser of two evils in my mind. I can't save the world.:(

~Lisa

I know. And I'm not trying to call you out. I completely respect your positions and your right to hold them.

But I was thinking about bringing in the cows from their day in the pasture, then attaching them to padding milking machines to relieve their full udders.

I can't imagine it would be more onerous that pediatric nursing, for example, for a 12 hour shift.

Cows milk as opposed to rice milk, I mean.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You might not be able to save the world, but you're doing more than I could ever dream of doing.


"Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime; therefore, we must be saved by hope.

Nothing true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore, we must be saved by faith.

Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore, we are saved by love."

-- Reinhold Niebuhr

{{Lisa}}

[Jill, OK]

You might need to try different brands, to find a taste that you like.

There's been conversation on the boards before about that topic, and I don't have my links offhand, but when I investigated this before, it turns out that the differences in types of treatments that the milk goes through *can* make a difference in taste. (A certain process can give milk a sort of 'burnt' flavor).

I couldn't drink 'long life' milk when we lived in Europe, for this reason (milk that's heat treated in order to be able to be stored on shelves, instead of refrigerated), and I only buy certain brands of organic milk, because of the similar taste.

Email me, and I'll try to find the link I posted before.

[Jill, OK]

...above, I mentioned the different types of pasteurization. I found them again; HTST and UHT. UHT is the one I think tastes nasty, lol.

Look at different brands and try to find which method they use, and see if switching to a non-UHT milk helps. (UHT might also say 'ultra-pasteurized', although I think there's a type of ultra-pasteurization that isn't UHT).

Hope you find one you like!

[Jill, OK]

...just to offer you some hope, if you can't find anything but UHT; not all of it tastes that way.

I don't know why, and yes, when folks complain about the taste, it's UHT, but sometimes, for some reason...some ultra-pastuerized doesn't taste bad. The brand I buy now is ultra-pastuerized (doesn't say UHT), and tastes fine. But I had to shop around.

But I miss my dairy in VA that delivered non-homogenized, natural milk in glass bottles, to my front doorstep. :o(

[Robin in Tx]

Doran, I wish I could remember exactly what times of year we have tried the milk. I've not paid attention to that, to be honest. We have tried it numerous times, though, over the course of a number of years (I've belonged to an organic coop since the ealry 90s, and have "gone organic" too many times to count over the decades - as a matter of fact, I was buying organics in the 70s!!).

The milk doesn't taste like it's actually bad, just real strong (the way conventional milk takes on a pronounced/heightened flavor towards the end of its shelf life). My dd is oblivious to the label on the container and she has disliked the flavor (I think another poster here said her kids don't like it either). In a way, she has been my blind test. I know we've tried Horizons and Organic Valley, and there are a couple of other brands available at our local stores. I really don't know how to describe it, but obviously we're not the only ones as others seem to have had a similar experience getting used to it. Don't you think that you would be able to tell the difference in taste with conventional milk, after so many years of drinking organic? Not that one is bad and the other is good, it's just that one tastes more like what you're used to.

I think I need to take closer note of the time of year, as you suggest, and see if that makes a difference. I just hate spending that much money on something we may not like, kwim? I might pick up the new Borden organic label next time to see if it is any better. I was just wondering if there were any brands/products that were easier to get used to (doesn't taste quite so different).

Thanks for the ideas!
Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Thanks for this idea, Andie. If I can't find something that works, I'll definitely consider mixing for a while. Great idea!

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

I'll look for someting like that, Regena. Thanks!

Robin

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Ultra-pasteurization changes the taste for me. I know it shouldn't, but it does to my mouth.

Most organic milk (if not all) is ultrapasteurized.

[Robin in Tx]

There used to be but not anymore. There is a regulation problem with raw milk in Texas, and it is very hard to find. Apparently you can get into big trouble selling direct to the public. But I do remember being able to buy from the local dairy farmer milk straight out of his vats for $2 a gallon (20 years ago!)... it was the honor system, where you got your milk yourself and left $2 in the cigar box :). Now *that* was good milk!

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Oh, that would have been wonderful, Jill. I wish there were something like thataround here. I'll definitely look at those pasteurization symbols, though. Thanks for the heads up!

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Pam, you and Jill have both mentioned this. I need to check into thatas a possible culprit. Thanks!

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Janet - Thanks for the great link! I will tryto see if some of the "5 cow" brands are available locally.

Thanks again!
Robin

[Colleen]

Most organic milk (if not all) is ultrapasteurized.

There's really no difference in the quantity of organic versus conventional milk that's ultra-pasteurized. And organic milk that's not ultrapasteurized is readily available in many parts of the country. I do notice a taste difference; I prefer milk that isn't ultrapasteurized, but that's actually what many consumers demand.

[Colleen]

The picture I had in my mind was not particularly hard labor so much as physically dangerous task of taking down a fearful animal and the involvment of knives with which to do that. I was thinking more along the lines of being hurt by an animal, as opposed to working in swealtering heat.

Interesting. Are you just going on what you imagine takes place in the world of dairying, or do you have some firsthand knowledge? I want to better understand your position.

[Colleen]

I ask because I know that cow's milk from grass fed cows will take on certain flavors depending on the time of year. The first time I bought raw milk for our family, it happened to be springtime, and the milk had a decided onion flavor to it -- from the wild onions in the pasture where the cows grazed. It changed taste altogether later in the year. I *doubt* this is the issue with what you've tried because I believe most organic milk is probably pooled from several farms and sold to the larger companies. I was just curious about the whole flavor thing.

That's true of raw milk, if the animals have a feed component during part of that year that's particularly strong in flavor (and most don't). I don't think that would be a factor in pasteurized milk, though.

[Colleen]

As I've mentioned before, most major brands offer both ultra-pasteurized and "regular" pasteurized.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

And organic milk that's not ultrapasteurized is readily available in many parts of the country.

I believe you, but not where I've ever lived. I'd surely have bought it otherwise!

With apologies to Nanny McPhee, "I *did* look!" ;)

[Colleen]

There was concern that Borden is owned by the same company that owns Horizon, which was so heavily criticized. But unless the website is flat out lying about the treatment of its herds, I wonder if the same criticisms can be said of the Borden line? If what they say is true, then I would think this label would be a major improvement over other commercial labels (if you want to see the cows pastured, etc.).

Is there more to the story than meets the eye?

Yes, there's more to the story than meets the eye. Here's my take, Robin. You're interested in this "just to support the ethical treatment of animals". If that's the case, I'd say first and foremost that you needn't necessarily seek out certified organic milk. If, for example, you have an opportunity to connect with a dairy ~ visit it firsthand, talk to the producers ~ and decide you can support their efforts, by all means do so. I'm thinking here primarily about small operations that are in many respects "natural", though not certified organic. Example: We have friends here who bottle their own milk. It's not certified organic. It's pasteurized, but not homogenized (which is preferred by some people). They pasture their animals as much of the year as possible; have a clean, respectable operation; don't administer Posilac (rBGH/synthetic growth hormone); and only use antibiotics when all alternatives have failed. If we didn't have our own dairy, I'd very likely purchase their milk because it's local (a few miles away) and ethical (to my standards).

Trouble is, many folks don't have such places at their disposal. As well, they don't have the knowledge to determine whether an operation is worthy of their support. I mean, a layperson could meander on to any given farm on any given day and see a dead cow lying there waiting to be hauled away, or note with a curled lip manure on the milk parlor walls, and assume that the place is a dump. And on the flip side, if that same layperson drives by a freshly painted red barn with some cows pasturing at a distance, it must be worthy of merit, right? Maybe.

Any-hoo. I think you're saying you don't have the local option available. In which case you want to explore organic despite the fact that the taste hasn't gone over well with you in the past. (And why that is, I don't know. I was never a milk fan until I started drinking OV milk (even before we shipped to OV). I do wonder if the ultra-pasteurization may be an issue for you.) So, which brands to consider when there are so many from which to choose? And when they all offer up pleasing descriptions, a la the Borden site you referenced?

Keep in mind that nothing on the Borden site is particularly noteworthy. What they're saying is the same as what everyone else is saying. That's when, imo, you do have to go to the next level and consider the control factor. Who's controlling Brand X (Borden, in this case)? Who are they answering to? If a brand I'm exploring is owned by a parent company who exhibits what I deem a proven lack of integrity, the game's over. Why, if my primary interest is the ethical treatment of animals, do I want to put money in the pockets of a company which is associated with the circumvention of my interest?

The vast majority of consumers paying extra for organic milk assume animals are being pastured as much as possible. That's a key element in what people consider "ethical" as far as animal treatment is concerned. Some producers support that. Some producers, individually and cooperatively, go above and beyond the requirements of the USDA organic certification standards. Others operate otherwise. If a brand you're investigating is linked with a company which falls into the "otherwise", that speaks volumes.

[Liz CA]

I believe you, but not where I've ever lived. I'd surely have bought it otherwise!

With apologies to Nanny McPhee, "I *did* look!" ;)

google "Straus Dairy" and see where their distributors are - don't know if they have any in TN. They do not ordinarily ultra-pasteurize their organic milk.
I have also found Organic Valley offered in "just" pasteurized and in ultra-pasteurized.
I prefer just pasteurized and would really like it if Organic Valley came out with some raw milk. There is raw milk available where I live but only in one store in town and I cannot think of the name right now.

[Robin in Tx]

Thanks for all that helpful information, Colleen. I hope I didn't imply that I don't support organic, and that ethical treatment would be the only reason for the switch, but instead that in spite of our taste preferences I might make a stronger commitment for ethical reasons (I've gone back and forth with organics over the decades... I'm not against them by any stretch, but I'm not a 100% true blue believer either... more of a mix here).

You know, I'm beginning to think that ultra pasteurization might very well be the problem here. Next time I go to the store, I'm going to look closely at that.

Do you have access to information about dairies? While there is nothing immediately local, there is a company called Promise Land that is not certified organic but what I would call borderline... no hormones, no antibiotics (although they allow antibiotics, they removed the animal from the herd till it has cleared), etc... but I can't find anything about their practices re: the herd, pasture, etc. I emailed them today, but I doubt they'll say anything negative about themselves :). Google hasn't turned up anything about them, either.


Thanks for taking the time!
Robin

[Robin in Tx]

I wish this was available where I live (Straus Dairy products). I found an article where their regular pasteurized milk won a taste test hands down.

Robin

[Lisa at Home]

Interesting. Are you just going on what you imagine takes place in the world of dairying, or do you have some firsthand knowledge? I want to better understand your position.

My information does not come from my imagination :confused:, but from the myriad of books avilable on factory farming. Of course, no knives (that I know of!) are used in the dairy side of the industry, per se, but I am making a generalization due to the fact that factory farmed dairy cows generally end up in slaughterhouses. It's kind of hard to not support one side of the equation without supporting the other side.

I would love to know one thing though from one with first hand knowledge: the removal of tails from dairy cows. What say you about that? I know what "the books" say, but I was wondering about your experiences. I recently visited a local diary, and I don't think I was impressed.

[Colleen]

I believe you, but not where I've ever lived. I'd surely have bought it otherwise!

I'm sorry you haven't been able to find what you wanted. I know that OV regional milk (which regions include CA, Heartland, New England, NE, NW, Rocky Mtn., and TX Pastures) is available in HTST, but I'm sure it varies from one specific region and store to another. Typically, most smaller dairies that bottle their own milk dont ultra-pasteurize, so I'm surprised you haven't been able to find it. Bummer!

[Robin in Tx]

I've thought about this all afternoon, and I've decided that if I had to choose between the two, I would work in the slaughter house. It would be a soul crushing job that I would hate, no doubt, but at least it would be stable work and my children wouldn't be subjected to a lifestyle void of opportunity and stability. If I were single, maybe it would be different... but if I had kids I would weigh those two awful choices for which would allow me to protect my kids from the effects of my choice... that would be the slaughter house, I'm afraid. But I get the creeps just thinking about it. I'd probably end up a vegetarian for sure.

[Robin in Tx]

You've gotta be kidding me? Cut their tails off???!! What on earth for?

I'll betcha Colleen and the other high standard organic dairies like hers wouldn't dream of it!

Robin

[Colleen]

I hope I didn't imply that I don't support organic, and that ethical treatment would be the only reason for the switch

Oh, you didn't imply that! I think I understood you correctly, but I was focusing on that comment in terms of considering the Dean Foods connection. I respect and appreciate that you're researching what options are available to you.

Do you have access to information about dairies?

I wonder if you might email Cornucopia Institute (authors of the Dairy Report Scorecard mentioned in this thread) and ask their advice as well as if they have any information on dairy you mentioned. Mark and will, the co-founders of Cornucopia, are typically very good about promptly getting back to people.

no antibiotics (although they allow antibiotics, they removed the animal from the herd till it has cleared)

There's nothing special about that, fyi. It's normal than when an animal receives antibiotic the milk is dumped or used for calves.

I will keeping thinking about this and let you know if I come up with anything more.

[Lisa at Home]

Or that maybe she can make me feel better about it if they have had the need to do that.:confused:

I read about it, but then I witnessed it first hand.

I'm hoping it doesn't happen in the OV dairies.

[Colleen]

My information does not come from my imagination :confused:, but from the myriad of books avilable on factory farming.

I am sorry, Lisa. I didn't mean to imply that your concerns were purely fantastical. I was genuinely interested in learning about the source of your information. I'm sorry if I got the discussion off on the wrong foot; thank you for replying.

You can imagine that as relatively small (160 cows), organic producers and advocates if sustainable agriculture, we share your concerns about "factory farming". I must say, though, that I have never encountered instances of labor abuse, so I'm somewhat surprised by your original comment. What is it about working on a large farm that you think would be any more dangerous or stressful than working on a small farm?

Of course, no knives (that I know of!) are used in the dairy side of the industry, per se, but I am making a generalization due to the fact that factory farmed dairy cows generally end up in slaughterhouses. It's kind of hard to not support one side of the equation without supporting the other side.

Aha. So if I'm understanding you correctly, your concern is not so much the farms themselves, as the end-product ~ that is, the "cutting room floor" where the animals end up. That's good that you're thinking through the whole process rather than simply focusing on one part of the equation. And I respect that you're making food choices in response to your concerns.

I would love to know one thing though from one with first hand knowledge: the removal of tails from dairy cows. What say you about that?

First of all, let me assure you that we don't dock (cut off) our cows' tails, nor do most organic dairymen. (It may be against regulations entirely for certified organic, but I can't say that unequivocally at the moment. I need to double check with my husband.) We are opposed to the practice, which originated in New Zealand and is now prohibited in several countries (including Swizerland).

Having said that, I am compelled to throw a bit of water on the fire here. It's all too easy for laypeople to hear about a certain farming practice and immediately assume the worst of the people engaging in that practice. Robin, for example, replied to you, clearly amazed that such a thing as cutting off a cow's tail actually takes place. (Btw, some breeds of dogs routinely have their tails docked; this isn't a practice specific to dairy cows.) For better or worse (the latter, I think), docking tails developed as a perceived means of promoting cleanliness within the herd. The tail, as you can imagine, gets, ahem, icky.;) It was thought (and still is, by some) that the manure on the tail creates cow health problems as it gets on the udder. Some farmers also just think it's easier to milk without a long tail in the way.

Now, as I said, we don't agree with the practice. But there are bound to be practices that are normal to most dairy farms that will make some people unhappy. (For example, dehorning cows is standard operating procedure here and elsewhere.)

[Liz CA]

I wish this was available where I live (Straus Dairy products). I found an article where their regular pasteurized milk won a taste test hands down.

Robin

nt

[Julie in CA]

Y'all discussed dairies without me?
Although Colleen is much more articulate than I am about stating dairy facts, I just thought I'd chime in on a couple of things.
Our dairy is not organic.
We milk around 1200 cows and raise all of our own replacement stock.
I don't know if you'd consider us one of the enemy big farms, or not. My dh and his brother (and our sons) operate our dairy. It's not owned by a corporation, and is definitely a family business. Milking as many as we are though, I think some folks might not think of us as a "family farm".

The issue of treatment of farm help...Our milking help generally has a much easier & safer job than my dh and my dc. Insurance issues and OSHA regulations guarantee that our milkers are well treated, even though obviously we'd treat them well regardless...We have workers who have been with us from the beginning, and my husband's brothers have milkers on their dairies who have been working for them for more than 20 years. Their salaries are fair, they've been offered benefits inasmuch as what we could afford. They get coffee breaks, lunch breaks, and vacation time when they want it. All of the farmers in our area, large or small, are currently subject to those same regulations, and the dairy farmers I know are treating their workers fairly.

We don't dock tails on our cows, and frankly, I don't know any dairymen who do. I am sure they are out there somewhere, but I've been on many dairies and never seen it done as a routine.

Frankly, the concerns about cows being sent to the slaughterhouse have me puzzled! Where do the cows on organic dairies go at the end of their life? Where would you like to have them go? I'm not debating the actual process that takes place at the slaughterhouse, but buying organic milk isn't going to touch the problem of irresponsible slaughterhouse techniques.

*All* dairies are required to sequester animals treated with antibiotics until the medications have passed from their systems. Large farm or small farm, that remains the same. Also, veterinary pharmaceuticals (including antibiotics), are expensive! Even if we were not morally opposed to antibiotic overuse (which we are), we wouldn't distribute antibiotics "willy-nilly" anyway. It would be expensive. We use them when we're convinced that the benefits to the cow(and ourselves, I admit) outweigh the costs, both in dollars, time, and well-being of the animal. I will grant you that we are less devoted to homeopathic and natural remedies than organic dairies, but neither are we careless or cavalier about drug contamination of the milk supply.

We have never used any of the controversial hormones on our cows, and never will. Many, many dairies are not using rBGH. In fact, most of what I've read recently places the total amount of dairy cows receiving the hormones at under 20%, and I'm sure that number will continue to drop since many dairy farmers are finding it to be 1.) unprofitable and 2.)consumers are making their opinion clear.

I am not saying that you shouldn't buy organic (I often buy organic products), just that I think many people are operating under misguided perceptions of what dairy farms are like! I'm sure there are *really* bad ones, but I think they're the exception rather than the rule.

By all means, buy organic--but not as a knee-jerk reaction to inaccurate information! The dairymen I know truly want to have happy, healthy consumers, organic or not.

Thanks for hearing my perspective,
Julie

[Colleen]

I've thought about you several times during this discussion. Glad to see you here!

It's not owned by a corporation, and is definitely a family business. Milking as many as we are though, I think some folks might not think of us as a "family farm".

That's a sticky wicket, isn't it? "Big milking herd" and "family farm" can certainly be synonymous. The difficulty for many people, I think, revolves around the "factory farm" term. What is a factory farm? How many is too many? (I am asking these questions rhetorically ~ posing questions that occur to interested consumers.)

We don't dock tails on our cows, and frankly, I don't know any dairymen who do. I am sure they are out there somewhere, but I've been on many dairies and never seen it done as a routine.

That surprises me; definitely not my experience.

Frankly, the concerns about cows being sent to the slaughterhouse have me puzzled! Where do the cows on organic dairies go at the end of their life? Where would you like to have them go? I'm not debating the actual process that takes place at the slaughterhouse, but buying organic milk isn't going to touch the problem of irresponsible slaughterhouse techniques.

I'm not sure if you caught this, but the person (Lisa at Home) who expressed concern about slaughterhouse practices now opts out of animal products altogether. She originally chimed in to suggest rice milk as an alternative to organic milk ~ because as you say, even organic cows are going somewhere when they die!

(V)eterinary pharmaceuticals (including antibiotics), are expensive! Even if we were not morally opposed to antibiotic overuse (which we are), we wouldn't distribute antibiotics "willy-nilly" anyway.

I agree that farmers aren't going to go through mega-bucks worth of antibiotic unnecessarily. I have found, though, that the "conventional" treatment of mastistis, more often than not, is to turn to antibiotic without a great deal of delay. One thing that inhibits many dairymen from going organic is the very notion that they won't be able to rely on that kind of approach.

[Julie in CA]

Hi Colleen {waving}!

I've been thinking about the things I've posted, and you're right about some things.
I realized that I've seen many dairies, but they've all been in California! That may be influencing my viewpoint about some things, especially the docked tails. We have enviable weather here, and although we have some wet weather, it's not nearly like what dairies in other regions face. I'm absolutely sure that if I visited dairies in wet locales, I'd see some docked tails. No, this isn't a plug for "buy real California milk!" lol.

I lost track of the thread (it *is* pretty long now!), and was off-track about the slaughterhouse/rice milk reference. I had the cruelty to workers issue and the cruelty to animals issue confused. My bad. I'm still amazed though, that there exists a rather "Pollyanna" viewpoint about what should happen to farm animals at the end of their life. The format of today's society insulates people from the realities of food production in such a way that they sometimes only see snippets of "cruelty", and then crusade to eliminate the perceived cruelty without having a better solution/process in place for feeding our country (and the world).

As far as the antibiotic usage, I agree that many farmers don't think twice about treating mastitis cows. I think the larger part of that is not whether you're quick to administer the antibiotics, but rather focusing on reducing the incidence of mastitis through prevention to begin with, kwim? So, if my dh's first impulse is to give the meds when he encounters the sick cow, his part in avoiding the antibiotics is via clean dairy practices in the first place, and culling cows he feels are at risk *before* the meds become necessary.

Thanks for the "food for thought"! I'm always kept on my toes by a rousing dairy discussion.
(Helps me clarify my own thoughts and positions on things too!)

Good night!

[Laura Corin]

I won't deny that standing all day in a rice paddy somewhere in the sun sounds like a pleasant task, if that's how it is still done.
~Lisa

If the rice is coming from Asia, it's not just a question of heat. It's just backbreaking work. Chinese farmers are old, their bodies broken, at fifty.

Laura

[Michele in New Zealand]

I am hoping I can offer a different perspective to the milk conversation.

I am a vegan for health reasons. I don't drink milk but my youngest daughter and husband have organic, whole, homogenised, pasturised cows milk. It is illegal here to sell unpasturised milk.

If I was vegan, or even just anti cows milk for animal welfare reasons, it would be for what I see over my fence every spring. It never fails to do my head in - calves being taken from their mothers right after birth, loaded into a trailer pulled by a quad bike, taken to the calf shed with their mothers running, crying and completely stressing over their baby. If that is not enough to put me off milk, I don't know what would be.

The farmers milk the cows for their colostrum which is making big bucks here and overseas, and then of course they continue to milk for the regular cows milk.

I get that it is putting money in the farmers pockets, food on the table etc., so they can eat. My husband puts food on our table by working at the most major dairy factory in NZ. But what about those poor cows - every year they are put in calf, give birth to their baby, have their baby taken from them, are milked til they are in calf again ... and on it goes.

I don't know if it is any different on an organic farm or on an american dairy farm. I really hope it is.

[Lisa at Home]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate your comments.

I also started on the vegan route for health reasons. But you know what? That didn't change my desire for animal products. I started studying the ethical treatment of animals because I knew that there was information out there that would help me not want to eat animal products.

My dh and I spend a lot of time talking with people about their health issues. Sometimes a person is more willing to give up animal products due to ethical reasons, and sometimes they will make the change for health reasons. I try to use one reason to support the other reason.

As far as the treatment of animals in NZ versus USA, I can't say for sure, but my impression is that America has some of the worst practices anywhere in the world, but the common American never sees that side of the business.

Blessings on your journey,

[LisaNY]

The only problem is, we haven't liked the flavor of organic milk whenever we've tried it. It has a very strong flavor to us, almost what milk tastes like right when it's turning bad. Does anyone else have this problem? If so, what has your solution been? Are there any brands that are not as strongly flavored as others?

Thanks,
Robin

Yeah, I know what you mean. We've tried Horizon, and feel the same way. It smells/tastes funny. We are now using Shop Rite brand organic, and haven't had any problems. I don't know if Shop Rite is in TX, or not.

[LisaNY]

You've gotta be kidding me? Cut their tails off???!! What on earth for?

I'll betcha Colleen and the other high standard organic dairies like hers wouldn't dream of it!

Robin

Take a look around your local pet store. Cow tails and other body parts are being sold as dog treats. Every single part of the cow is used. You could do an animal anatomy field trip. :rolleyes:

[LisaNY]

I don't drink milk, (just a tiny bit in my coffee) but my family uses it sparingly. 1/2 gallon lasts more than a week most of the time. I use Almond Milk in my cereal. I get unsweetened regular, and I like it a lot more than rice milk. It is creamier and better tasting, IMO. I use Diamond brand.

[Lisa at Home]

[QUOTE=Colleen;21266][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Navy"]


Having said that, I am compelled to throw a bit of water on the fire here. It's all too easy for laypeople to hear about a certain farming practice and immediately assume the worst of the people engaging in that practice. Robin, for example, replied to you, clearly amazed that such a thing as cutting off a cow's tail actually takes place. (Btw, some breeds of dogs routinely have their tails docked; this isn't a practice specific to dairy cows.) For better or worse (the latter, I think), docking tails developed as a perceived means of promoting cleanliness within the herd. The tail, as you can imagine, gets, ahem, icky.;) It was thought (and still is, by some) that the manure on the tail creates cow health problems as it gets on the udder. Some farmers also just think it's easier to milk without a long tail in the way.

Thanks for your imput on that, Colleen. What I had read about the tail docking was that it may commonly be done because the over administration of antibiotics could cause runny stools in the cows, and then the cow would get an infected tail, which was easier to remove than to treat.

My only frame of reference personally to this is a local "family" dairy. At first I thought it was so cool that we had something "local" and it was going to be so wonderful and we were going to use their products. Here lies part of the problem that you mentioned. How big can a family farm be? What makes a factory farm? I don't think it's about numbers. A farmer can have 10 cows and treat them horribly, or have 200 and treat them with care.

What I saw at our local "family farm" was a guy who despised being a small farm. He was pushing hard to grow his business to be THE
regional supplier. Therefore, when I saw that *some* of his cows had docked tails, I was suspicious. I wasn't bold enough to question him, and I regret that, and am looking for an opportunity to have a second look. Anyway, it wasn't a practise he adhered to across the board, so I wondered if there was an antibiotic connection.

Thanks for you input,

~Lisa

[Robin in Tx]

Julie, thank you for this thoughtful post. I can assure you that I have no issue at all with factory farms. I am not anti big-business. So however you end up being defined, you're A-OK with me!!

As colleen pointed out, I sorta had a knee jerk, emotional reaction to the docked tails practice... I think I'm possibly having a knee jerk reaction to the entire issue. I'll bet that the vast majority of dairies are concientous and careful with their herds, and that the complaints/criticisms about animal treatment are possibly exaggerated and over generalized, appealing to emotions.

I have no problem with animals being slaughtered for consumption. I would hope it's done as humanely as possible, but I'm not going to go vegetarian just because it isn't always done so.

You've got me curious about the antibiotic usage, and now I'm beginning to wonder if the main difference between organic and conventional milk is the organic feed. I already buy conventional milk that is hormone free (and yes, I discovered it is one of Dean Foods' labels). So what else is there... access to pasture, organic feed and no pesticides?

In all this searching, I found a dairy in Texas not too far away that is organic, but for heavens sake they ship their milk to Colorado to be processed. So I don't know... what's worse? Conventional milk, or all those greenhouse gasses being emitted during transportation back and forth to Colorado? Much of what is available to me, dairy wise, is raised and processed pretty close to home. Even if it is conventional, I need to consider that as a value in and of itself.

Thanks, Julie, for bringing me back to earth! :) I will quit worrying so much about this.

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Well now, that's okay... I just assumed that those parts were removed and processed at slaughter time. You know Osso Bucco is considered a delicacy!

Like Colleen said, they dock the tails of dogs (not exactly a practice I am warm towards, though), and I sure get a lot of laughs out of Ree's cow nut stories... that's gotta ouch, too!

[Colleen]

Take a look around your local pet store. Cow tails and other body parts are being sold as dog treats. Every single part of the cow is used.

You're referring to the processing of a slaughtered animal. Tails are docked when animals are living ~ and the remnant tails wouldn't be utilized for anything, really.

[Colleen]

What I had read about the tail docking was that it may commonly be done because the over administration of antibiotics could cause runny stools in the cows, and then the cow would get an infected tail, which was easier to remove than to treat.

Hmmm, okay; I've never heard that, nor has my husband.

What I saw at our local "family farm" was a guy who despised being a small farm. He was pushing hard to grow his business to be THE
regional supplier.

I would encourage you to talk directly with the farmer about your concerns. There are farmers who do a poor job managing, no question, but I would be wary of drawing conclusions based on conjecture.

As I said before, I appreciate your desire to inform yourself on these issues, Lisa. Nice chatting with you!:)

[Colleen]

I realized that I've seen many dairies, but they've all been in California! That may be influencing my viewpoint about some things, especially the docked tails. We have enviable weather here, and although we have some wet weather, it's not nearly like what dairies in other regions face. I'm absolutely sure that if I visited dairies in wet locales, I'd see some docked tails.

Now there's a thought! Although my husband first saw herds with docked tails when he traveled in New Zealand 20 years ago and I don't know that wet weather was a factor. Btw, he said he'd estimate about 1/3 of the farms around here dock tails. (Again, just guesstimating.)

I'm still amazed though, that there exists a rather "Pollyanna" viewpoint about what should happen to farm animals at the end of their life. The format of today's society insulates people from the realities of food production...

Definitely! And truth be told, I am often the Pollyanna around here.;)

...his part in avoiding the antibiotics is via clean dairy practices in the first place, and culling cows he feels are at risk *before* the meds become necessary.

Ah, well, that brings up the issue of potentially high cull rates. But I'll save that for another day. Though I'm sure everyone on this board is chomping at the bit to have us get even deeper into this dairying discussion.:D

[Colleen]

I can't say for sure, but my impression is that America has some of the worst practices anywhere in the world, but the common American never sees that side of the business.

What gives you that impression?

[Lisa at Home]

And I realize that's what it is. I read so much information, but it's still book knowledge, and I know that.

It's just that I continually read about how many practices allowed in the states are illegal in the EU. When I say "the rest of the world" I'm not really including third world countries, because their practices may not make it to the statistics. So when I say "the world" I am speaking of the Western world. When other countries won't allow US beef to be imported, you have to stop and ask yourself why.

I think the desireability of foreign beef also makes a statement, albeit it's probably expensive; I don't know. Or, imported beef may just sound more exotic. I do have several friends who prefer beef from Japan, New Zealand or Brazil.

It's similar to the cosmetics industry (from what I read). Many chemicals used in cosmetics in the US are banned in the EU. Some companies make cosmetics for the US and the EU, but the formulations are different. We get the nasty junk and chemicals.

Back to the tail docking. I've been trying to remember which book stated the connection between antibiotics and tail rot. I want to say it was Fast Food Nation, but I can't be sure. Just trying to remember the resource, that's all.

There was more to talking with the local dairyman that I didn't include. The thread seems to be far spent, and it was tiresome to try to remember every thought I had from last spring when I visited. I wouldn't form an opinion on a diary on just one incident!:)

~Lisa