Fountain Pen...

[mittmaman]

Are we the only ones using a fountain pen???
I am a little surprised, that in almost all resources we use kids are adviced to use a pencil...even in Writing Tales, which we just started.:glare:
When do children in the US usually start using a fountain pen? And do they go straight from pencil to fountain pen, or is there another kind of pen in between?
I am looking forward to your answers!:)

[Kris]

Do you mean "fountain pen" or "ballpoint" or "gel" pen?

I use a "fountain pen" for special letters and journal entries, but I don't know anyone who uses a one as a general rule anymore.

ETA: Just realized you're in Switzerland, so the term might carry a different meaning there, or they might be more prevalent!

[Pine Ledge Academy]

We generally use pencils, we have to erase a lot, but we do use pens for final projects.

[mittmaman]

...the "classical"...well, I think they have been around ever since humanity graduated from feathers :D...
Children here use them exclusively in school (starting usually in the middle of first grade).

[Beth in Central TX]

Wow, I've never even considered using a pen even for final projects. We transitioned from pencil to computer.

[Kris]

...the "classical"...well, I think they have been around ever since humanity graduated from feathers :D...

Wearing them or writing with them? :D

Children here use them exclusively in school (starting usually in the middle of first grade).

*That* is cool.

I don't know what the PS kids are doing, but when I was a kid (back when the earth was cooling) we used pencils until middle school, then pens except for math.

My son still uses a pencil. It irritates me no end, but I have enough other battles going, I'm not fighting this one right now.

[Cadam]

They don't. Pencil to ball point (except for math). I taught myself to use a fountain pen in High School just for fun but it annoyed my teachers when I used it for assignments. Besides I went through ink quickly and it was so much cheeper to buy a few dozen ball point pens.

What are the advantages of a fountain pen btw? I know they use them in Europe but I am not sure why and would love to know what the reasoning is.

[GailV]

We started using a fountain pen for copywork in about 3rd grade.

We have some Waldorf (Steiner school) influences in our homeschool, though, and I think Waldorf tends to be a little Euro-centric.

BTW, dd loved getting her fountain pen, and felt oh-so-very special about using it. She tends to save it for special occasions.

[Kathy in MD]

They don't. Pencil to ball point (except for math). I taught myself to use a fountain pen in High School just for fun but it annoyed my teachers when I used it for assignments. Besides I went through ink quickly and it was so much cheeper to buy a few dozen ball point pens.

What are the advantages of a fountain pen btw? I know they use them in Europe but I am not sure why and would love to know what the reasoning is.

The big advantage is that the child learns not to push too hard on the pencil. My dh also prefers how smoothly they flow over the paper. The downside I had with them was puprple fingers.

[Jane in NC]

Are we the only ones using a fountain pen???


My mother (the Wisconsin farm girl) allowed me to use her fountain pen for my best compositions in school when penmenship was important (at least in her eyes). I worked more slowly and found that my handwriting did improve with the instrument. Thus, I employed this strategy with my son when he was younger.

Jane (who really prefers mechanical pencils)

[clwcain]

In most cases, fountain pens aren't used in the US.

I have a personal partiality to them, and so my children will transition to fountain pens at some point. But for now, only the oldest is learning to write, so we're keeping him with pencils, crayons, chalk, and felt-tip markers. :)

I came to passionately hate ball points as a younger man, and I still do. I'll work with a rollerball pen if I must use a disposable, but at work (corporate finance) I've switched back to pencil or fountain pen.

One of the things that impressed me when I lived in Italy for a few months during college was the elegance of the writing of even the meanest shopkeeper in both Italy and Greece. And none of them used ball point pens.

As my wife and I looked into handwriting programs, we came to conclude that much of the ugliness of American penmanship is due to the lethal combination of "modern" scripts, excessive reliance on computers for legibility, and the ball point pen. Since most of the modern scripts assume the use of a ball point pen, they are not designed to ever look elegant. They are, in this, very American.

[Cadam]

As my wife and I looked into handwriting programs, we came to conclude that much of the ugliness of American penmanship is due to the lethal combination of "modern" scripts, excessive reliance on computers for legibility, and the ball point pen. Since most of the modern scripts assume the use of a ball point pen, they are not designed to ever look elegant. They are, in this, very American.

So what program teaches handwriting with a fountain pen?

[Lisa at Home]

It's really the only way to make it look just right.

Here's their site:
http://www.spencerian.com/

My daughter has beautiful penmanship due to this program.


~Lisa

[clwcain]

So what program teaches handwriting with a fountain pen?

None, so far as I know.

We're teaching Italics using Penny Gardner's CM-inspired book, and once he's competent with forming his Italics with a pencil, we'll transition him to a fountain pen -- no pit stop with rollerballs, gelwriters, ballpoints, or anything else.

Spencerian, and its predecessor Copperplate, can be done with a fountain pen. However, the formation of the elaborate penwork associated with both styles is quite unsuited to the fountain pen. Those are best done with a nibbed stylus and an inkwell, since pressure on the nib is part of how you vary the thickness of a stroke for all that decoration.

In the case of a fountain pen, excess pressure on the nib will ruin the pen, or at least lead to costly repairs, since inkflow is controlled by the nib and it's relationship to the nib housing.

In my experience, fountain pens work very well with italic script even if you don't use an italic nib. I've also seen the Palmer method look quite elegant when a fountain pen was employed even though, if memory serves, it was a simplification of Spencerian in order to accommodate the advent of the mass-produced ball point pen.

At least in my own travels and with my kids, I prefer the cartridges to the refill bottle and plunger, but YMMV.

I will note that our oldest is just learning to form his letters (he's four-and-a-half). So there is still much time for the "best laid plans of mice and men..." :)

I am very interested in the Sull's handwriting system, advertised at spencerian.com (linked above). But I have found them unresponsive to repeated inquiries as to when they expect the complete program to become available. We haven't had a chance to try out their main body of available materials, yet, but I'm glad to hear from Lisa at Home that they have proven effective.

HTH

[GailV]

The downside I had with them was puprple fingers.

The downside we've found is that lined schoolwork paper (like you buy in packs at Walmart) often isn't made for fountain pen ink. The ink bleeds into ugly blobs unless you keep a very light hand, barely skimming the page. It reminded me of trying to use my Prismacolor markers way way back when I was studying design -- some papers tended to bleed and you had to spray them with hairspray to get the marker to stay where you wanted it.

When we find a pack of paper that's usable for fountain pens we squirrel it away for that purpose, and use the crummy paper for pencil.

You know, I say all of that, but it wasn't a problem until we moved to St. Louis. I could purchase any ol' pack of paper back in Ohio, and it was all okay. So maybe it varies by location, or maybe paper manufacturing has changed in the past few years.

[Momto4kids]

Are we the only ones using a fountain pen???
I am a little surprised, that in almost all resources we use kids are adviced to use a pencil...even in Writing Tales, which we just started.:glare:
When do children in the US usually start using a fountain pen? And do they go straight from pencil to fountain pen, or is there another kind of pen in between?
I am looking forward to your answers!:)

Ds is in 3rd grade and still uses pencils. I am not going to push the pens till later.

[mittmaman]

I did not realize that fountain pens are not used in the US much any more...!

As I said earlier, here (most of Europe), kids transition to a fountain pen about mid-first grade...and usually love it...it is THE ultimate sign of maturity ;).

The handwriting with a fountain pen is much different - writing becomes more than a means...

Obviously this involves regular and frequent practice and I have to admit that there have been times when I questioned the worth of it...ds8, in his VERY traditional french school, learned to form the letters like a piece of art...(in quite exactly the Declaration of Independence-Style)
In the end (almost...ds still practices daily...) I certainly find it worth it: his handwriting is beautiful!

Btw, teachers here don't even use any handwriting program. They just write the letters (about one a day) and later entire words on the kids' notebook and the kids copy...quite easy...and efficient.
When we started homeschooling, though, I bought some old-fashioned handwriting notebooks - I didn't trust myself to keep up the quality in the samples...:D

I started using HWT (the three printing books only) for the very early grades (K-middle of 1st), and while I think they are nice for very young students, I am somewhat amazed by how complicated handwriting seems to be presented...

Again, I very much enjoyed this discussion, sometimes "Old Europe" certainly seems "old"...:)

[CleoQc]

You can see an example of French cursive here:
http://www.logedu.com/cursive.html

French schools do teach writing with the fountain pen. You can download the fonts at the above link, and create your own copywork with French cursive letters.

[In The Great White North]

Very few people I know use fountain pens, and for those that do, it's part of their "image," like wearing a bow tie. These pens are expensive, works of art.

We introduced them at 4th grade, because that's what our local Waldorf school did. They also sell brightly colored (like hot pink), cheaper, cartridge fountain pens for children. When dd(11) started with it, she found it scratchy and had a hard time with upstrokes.

We saved the "pot of ink" stuff for calligraphy.


Mittmaman - so is dd in Switz. for 7th grade is using a fountain pen exclusively?

[clwcain]

Thanks for the link to French cursive. I was just discussing with a friend the other day a line in Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited where Waugh used the phrase "frenchified hand" to describe the handwriting in a letter.

Just FYI, the script on the Declaration of Independence is Copperplate. You can still find resources to teach it, but it was the standard manuscript taught in British education through the middle-to-end of the 19th century.

This is a good article, with suggestions on how a contemporary individual can embrace Copperplate:
http://www.6nc.org/about6nc/copperplate.html

Amazon Link to The Universal Penman, referenced in the above-linked article on Copperplate:
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Penman-Picture-Archives/dp/0486206165

The book on Italic by Penny Gardner that I referenced above guides the parent in employing a very Traditional/"European"/CM method of using copywork to teach the manuscript. Thus, with her book you don't need to buy a new grade level of handwriting book every year, although you should have one for each child (but at $5+shipping I don't think it's outrageous). In Italic, like Copperplate, Spencerian, and even Palmer, there are a few strokes necessary for the proper formation of the letters. Then it is about perfect execution 1 letter at at time, building up to words, phrases, and eventually long passages.
Link to Penny Gardner's site and book:
http://www.pennygardner.com/italics.html

For Spencerian, the 19th century American refinement of Copperplate, the products offered by the Sull's seem to be the best I've found although there are some Spencerian copybooks put out by Mott Media to complement their reprint of the McGuffy Readers.
The Sull's website: http://www.spencerian.com/

As I don't have much interest in Palmer Method, I don't have any links to offer.

Given this discussion, I'll likely now give consideration to moving my son to a fountain pen much sooner than I had planned. They can be found inexpensively, even in the states. If I find any links, I'll double back and post them here. :001_smile:

[GailV]

This (http://www.achildsdream.com/arts_crafts_kits/art_supplies.htm) is where I got dd's -- it's about halfway down the page. Probably not the cheapest place, but I was getting a bunch of other stuff from this vendor at the time.

You know, it never occurred to me that different types of script would be easier or harder using a fountain pen. Doh, it seems so obvious now. Thanks so much for all the links.

[clwcain]

From most of the major manufacturers today the least expensive pens run around $40, although I have found a few (plastic barrel) for less.

These look really good and very reasonably priced.

Believe it or not, once you get into penwork and the collection of fountain pens you discover a whole world where different nibs on the same pen are suited to different scripts.

Finding the nib you need, or having it custom ground, for the type of work you're doing is almost as much fun as the variation in barrel and cap design.

I'm not a collector, yet. Really, I'm not. Why are you laughing? ;)
Seriously, I can't yet afford to collect beautiful pens, but when I can get a lovely one on the cheap -- and put it to use -- it warms my heart.

I've loved fountain pens for the longest time. The discovery of how much of a difference the nib makes was really cool, and very recent.

[langfam]

oooooh.....I love fountain pens! We were required to write all subjects( including math) in fountain pen 5th grade and 6th grade in Singapore...catholic school though . From 7th grade on we could use ballpoint and mechanical pencils (for math only). I just love the idea of the fountain pen....brings back great memories. For primary school graduation I got a really nice Shaeffer...don't know where it is now. They write so smoothly and easy to make your handwriting beautiful. Love pumping the ink, they came blue, black, red and green..... and using blotters. I haven't used one in years....

http://www.sheaffer.com/writing/javelin/

[mittmaman]

...the fountain pens used regularly for younger students are about 10 dollars...so, the really cheap plastic/cartridge kind.

Usually they get a "real" nice one for Confirmation or another similar occasion...

I use wooden ones with an integrated grip - helps a lot with the blue fingers ;)...

Btw, thanks for the link and infos on the different handwriting styles - I think there is enough material to keep me sleepless for a night!

P.S. Just checked the link Gail posted. That's about what we use. They are really great!

[clwcain]

My wife really liked the look of the pens Gail linked to, and I hadn't realized how inexpensive the Shaeffer Javelin is.

Good news all around, and a most productive thread.

Thanks, mittmaman for getting the ball rolling. :D

[GailV]

My wife really liked the look of the pens Gail linked to, and I hadn't realized how inexpensive the Shaeffer Javelin is.



If y'all get these pens and discover that the nibs are horrid or something else is wrong with them, could you let me know? Because, really, I'm clueless.

An analogy: I thought I knew what marzipan tasted like, and then someone gave me some Niederegger marzipan, and I realized that the stuff I'd eaten before really wasn't that great. By the same token, I think this is an okay pen, but really, I have no basis of comparison.

[clwcain]

If y'all get these pens and discover that the nibs are horrid or something else is wrong with them, could you let me know?

Sure! :)

Even though my son won't be ready for one for another year or two, I'm planning to order a couple when I do our Fall curriculum order in a couple of weeks. I'll put them through their paces and bump this thread with my review.

[mittmaman]

...these fountain pens look very much like "LAMY", in Germany (you could easily google them). This company has been around forever and is known for their very good products ("Made in Germany";)). The original Lamy looks a little more woodish, with a little less colour (there is either a red or a blue tip)...

So, if "your fountain pen" really is a US-Version of the german Student-Lamy you have about as good and appropriate a pen you can get for a young child.:)

If you really wanted to be sure, you could probably order the original one, too...but I'm not sure it is worth the trouble.

[clwcain]

I just checked LAMY's US website -- nothing like the linked or described pens on offer, and their current catalog stars at $30 and goes up fast.

It's possible the pens on the Waldorf site that Gail linked to are LAMY, but they may be imported through a different distributor.

Regardless, I'll check them out. :)

[mittmaman]

I found the one I'm talking about at lamy.com...then to english...then to fountain pen...it is the "abc fountain pen"... (gosh, I REALLY should learn how to post a link:001_huh:)...
They are about 12 Euros here...

HTH!

[clwcain]

http://www.lamy.com/eng/b2c/abc/009

Not available in the US according to their site. :(

I'll contact LAMY USA and inquire. I suspect they don't carry it due to a combination of lack of demand and fear of lawsuits. I'm US born and bred, but sometimes it just makes me go :banghead: .

Cartridge filling system with LAMY T 10 blue ink cartridge (can be used with the Z 24 converter). Steel nib, polished.

Also available with special nib for left-handed writers.

This model is available in: Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxemburg, the Netherlands and Switzerland.

But, the one's at A Child's Dream appears to be Greenfield, made by Mercurius.
http://www.mercurius-international.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=24

Worst comes to worst I'll try to get some when I'm next overseas.;)

[mittmaman]

...to order one through a european distributer...

(...I usually have deal with local suppliers for US products..., so, be assured, this is not an "American problem";)).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I started using a fountain pen in college. I used cheap plastic ones and then eventually got a Mont Blanc. However, I have rarely seen a student fountain pen for sale in the US. You know the lovely Lamy ones that come in the little kit with a larger barrel that is easy to hold. Maybe in a high end toy or stationary store.
There really isn't a national US handwriting style in the same way that there is in many countries in Europe. My SIL is a 3rd grade teacher and she was surprised to find that there wasn't even a consistent style in her school from grade to grade. Each teacher chose what they wanted. It has also become more common for public schools to abandon teaching cursive altogether. Partly in order to find time to teach keyboarding and partly because they have despaired of teaching legible script.

[clwcain]

They will special order both the pens and the mechanical pencils. They have an order due in mid-June that they can add this onto.

I'm trying to find out the best way to submit such an order.

ETA:
The best way to go about this is email Bob Rella our Logistics/Warehouse manager. His email is: Rrella [at] filofaxinc [dot] com

Bob will be able to answer your questions about price, Lamy refills and payment.

Remove the spaces and substitute the correct symbols for Mr. Rella's email address.

[mo2]

This may be a stupid question, but I have to ask anyway because it's been driving me nuts since this thread started. What do the students do when they make a mistake? Cross it out, or do they have to start over? I'm sorry if I sound clueless, but please remember that I went to a very American public school where everything had to be done in pencil, and mistakes had to be erased. My teachers flipped out if you crossed or scribbled out something on a paper you were handing in!

I have never used a fountain pen, but now I am going to have to buy one and have been checking out all these links you all posted!

[clwcain]

Speaking only for myself, I was taught to put a single horizontal line through mistakes once I started using pens.

As I was educated in American schools in the 1980s, we were expected to use pencils, and later erasable pens, because the emphasis was on creating the appearance of perfect execution despite repeated trial and error.

My understanding, so I'm open to correction here, is that the European methods emphasize perfect execution and insist that mistakes be left as evidence of progression towards the ideal.

It helps foster a sense of achievement as the student can see the improvement, rather than get frustrated that he's torn another hole in his penmanship paper.

[In The Great White North]

We use the Mercurius one and like it. They use it (and sell it) at our local Waldorf school. If you get blue ink and the "Ink Remover," they can "erase" it. The ink remover doesn't work with black.

It was $10-$15 and the cartidges are 10 cents each.

[langfam]

White-out for mistakes.

[clwcain]

We use the Mercurius one and like it. They use it (and sell it) at our local Waldorf school. If you get blue ink and the "Ink Remover," they can "erase" it. The ink remover doesn't work with black.

It was $10-$15 and the cartidges are 10 cents each.

Thanks for the tip on the Ink Remover and the costs.

I don't know what the LAMY pens will cost, but given the exchange rate I'm expecting around $25.

I'm planning to get and test both the Mercurius and the LAMY and I'll probably just post in this thread once I've had that opportunity.

[langfam]

http://www.pendemonium.com/pens_parker.htm

This looks interesting...

[GailV]

Speaking only for myself, I was taught to put a single horizontal line through mistakes once I started using pens.


That's how I was taught, too

We use the Mercurius one and like it. They use it (and sell it) at our local Waldorf school. If you get blue ink and the "Ink Remover," they can "erase" it. The ink remover doesn't work with black.

It was $10-$15 and the cartidges are 10 cents each.

Ooooh, ink remover! Why am I so excited about this? I'm totally okay with the idea of a single-line strikeout, but I really want to find the ink remover and get some.




White-out for mistakes.
I would think white out would be too lumpy to rewrite over when using a fountain pen. Plus you'd have to wait for it to dry. Or maybe white out is formulated better these days -- I haven't used it for years.

BTW, I remember my older siblings typing on a typewriter, and if they didn't have white out or correction tape they had to simply strike out the mistakes or else try retyping until the page was perfect. I don't know why this sprang to mind, except it's an anecdote about the history of making and correcting mistakes.

[clwcain]

That's how I was taught, too
<snip>
I would think white out would be too lumpy to rewrite over when using a fountain pen. Plus you'd have to wait for it to dry. Or maybe white out is formulated better these days -- I haven't used it for years.

Too lumpy and fragile is still true in my experience. Even with my lightest hand, white out gets flaked up and ripped apart by the nib. That usually results in the need to clean the nib, which often means rewriting the whole piece due to different dye lots.

It teaches a very careful hand. :D


BTW, I remember my older siblings typing on a typewriter, and if they didn't have white out or correction tape they had to simply strike out the mistakes or else try retyping until the page was perfect. I don't know why this sprang to mind, except it's an anecdote about the history of making and correcting mistakes.

I, too, first learned to type with a typewriter (perhaps among the last as it was in the early 1990s). That's what we did without correcting fluid: drafts were permitted strikeouts, finals had to be retyped. It gave me a great appreciation for the capabilities of modern word processing software.

How could I deny my children, whom I love, such formative experiences. :laugh:

[mittmaman]

...and btw, their mechanical pencil for little hands is GREAT, too...;)

As far as dealing with mistakes, "clwcain" is right:
leaving them up in the open is considered an essential "learning experience":D...
Kids are not allowed to use ink removers in the lower grades at all.
(I do have them, but my kids are not allowed to make use on their own...)

One thing is sure: with this method kids certainly are motivated to work diligently...I can't count the times I ended up tearing out a page of my son's notebook - towards the end of the term they usually had shrunk considerably:001_huh:...

[freethinkermom]

I use a fountain pen exclusively when I write. I have a nice high-end Waterman that is "my" pen. Then we have a ton of disposable Pilot Varsities around the house. I carry a Pilot Varsity in my purse too. There really is no reason to write differently with a fountain pen than how you normally write. You do not need to force some fancy script just because it is a fountain pen. I write in my normal cursive. Fountain pens are easier on the hands because of the need to press lighter than with ballpoint. I have wrist and hand problems and find I can write for a longer time period with a fountain pen.

My kids are allowed to write with whatever they want (ballpoint, pencil, colored pencil, gel pen, computer) as long as it is neat and legible. My 11yo usually types because it is faster for him, but he will grab one of the fountain pens for a short assignment sometimes.

Fountain pens are seeing a resurgence in the US fueled by the getting-things-done(GTD)/organization/hPDA/moleskine loving crowd.

For an inexpensive pen with a nice tip and good pre-filled ink, I do have to recommend the Pilot Varsities. They are $3 from Staples. Hard to go wrong at that price.

[clwcain]

1. $15.00–Pencil, $20.00-Fountain
2. I do not have this information, so I will need to get back to you.
3. The only additional fee is FedEx Ground shipping cost ($8.00 minimum) dependent on the quantity.
4. You would place the order through me with a credit card. Once the item arrives I would charge you card just prior to shipping.
5. I would need to have your order by May 20th, in order to be included in the June shipment.


The email was from Bob Rella, referenced in one of my posts above.

Question number 2 concerned refill cartridges and leads for the writing instruments.

[CleoQc]

A bit more about French writings:

http://www.dafont.com/fr/font.php?file=verchery&page=1&nb_ppp_old=10&text=&nb_ppp=10&psize=m&classt=alpha

Scroll down, and you'll see the type of lined paper that is used to learn to write. It's a science!

[clwcain]

Thank you. Any idea where such paper can be found in the US?

[clwcain]

update on refills for the pens and pencils. $3.50 for a set of either; converter is available for the pen; leads must be special ordered like the pencils as they are (IIRC) 3.15mm.

I should have them by the end of June, so I'll hopefully be able to post a review then.