Learning styles, personalities--should one always cater?

[Jane in NC]

One of the great advantages to homeschooling, it seems, is that we can cater to the learning styles and personalities of our students. But at some point in the process does this become detrimental?

I noted on another thread today (and please don't think I'm picking on you Quiver--it was your wording that led my thoughts along this path) about a child who doesn't like to read. He thinks that it is "boring". Is it better to expose the child to history and literature via textbooks as he prefers or should he be reading whole books because it is good for him--even if it is hard?

The question can also be asked with respect to mathematics. My son wanted to burn his math text earlier in the week. It is "hard". Oh well, I say. Math requires thinking, thinking is not always easy. Deal with it. I am obviously not sympathetic to his complaints, which are true because he is working in a very challenging text. But I feel that he has sufficient gray matter to reason through the material--if he applies himself, which he may or may not want to do on any given day.

Now I am not suggesting that failure with a mathematical curriculum is based on laziness. It is true that some programs or authors do a better job at reaching certain kids (or parents). I have been too tolerant when it comes to writing deadlines. My son will probably be at the CC in the fall when Mom's leniency will not enter the equation. Nor will Mom's choice of text books enter the equation.

By choosing materials that are appropriate to learning styles, I see homeschoolers laying good foundations and creating a love of learning. But back to my original question--at some point, does this become detrimental?

Looking forward to the discussion.
Jane

[Kimber]

My children are all little, but I'm not big on learning styles. (I just work at trying to find what works, which in the end may be the same thing. I just don't know.)

When kids get to college, unless they have a learning disability label, they must adapt to the instructor. And many of them are horrible. Many aren't, but both have an impact. I personally didn't have the skills to function in the classroom with the foreign instructors that spoke little English and didn't appreciate women in engineering. Because I couldn't adapt, I suffered in the end. At some point, they have to learn to suck it up and deal with it. This is what I tell my kids.

I didn't read Quiver's thread, but the case of preferring a text book doesn't seem like a detriment. That is probably good training for college. It's the always been read to (something my ds prefers) or the giving in by taking easy the way out (what my dd prefers).

It's funny because even though my kids are young, they're so different. He'll work and work at something until he gets it. He doesn't mind the effort. She on the other hand, will read 10 hours a day if allowed, but she doesn't want to work too hard at anything. I try to challenge their weaknesses, not cater to them.

(I remember hearing James Earl Jones speaking about his stuttering problem. He's now famous for his speaking abilities. I believe in shoring up the weaknesses early on.)

Kimberly

[Karenciavo]

I try to give my right-brained, V/S son the tools he needs to succeed in our left-brained world. Organization is one of the things we are working on now and related to that is being able to write a clear, concise, logical essay. His whole way of thinking seems to be a jumble to me, but I am finding, a little here and a little there, that I can give him strategies to organize his thoughts and still feel comfortable (btw, The Lost Tools of Writing has been fabulous for this.)

[Greg and Kathy Reeves]

There is always a concern that if we cater to our child's strongest learning style that we are setting them up for frustration and potential failure.
The research discusses learning styles, and learning modalities. Modalities are auditory, kinesthetic, aural and tactile. The styles are combinations of abstract vs. concrete and random vs. sequential. From the reading I have done, I believe that learning styles have a great deal to do with our genetic makeup--with the caveat that environment can have a lot of influence. The same with modality--we are definitely born with a preference, but observation leads me to believe that it is still a continuum, and it is possible to increase one's comfort with a modality even though the preference doesn't change.

In the home school situation, we are very tempted to do what our child needs, so they learn the maximum--however, in the real world, whether work or acedemia, they won't be catered to, so it behooves us to prepare them for the arena where their preferences are not considered. I would concur that some work in our less favorite modality is necessary to help us to broaden our comfort zone and shouldn't be eliminated from the schedule because of preference. At the same time, I would encourage the student to take charge of his learning, and discover how to make the assignements work within his favored modality. Ie. if he doesn't like reading, then read it out loud, so he gets the aural approach, or act it out, or draw illustrations, etc. Kathy

[Lori D.]

Initial exposure through the learning style which is most intuitive for the child -- esp. if it is a subject they *really* struggle with anyways. But then we strive to supplement, reinforce -- and sometimes even initially expose -- with material that is "foreign" to the child's learning style so the child will learn how to cope in a world that is not going to spoon-feed them.


We have 2 very different children, ages 14 and 16, and this is our 8th year of homeschooling. Our older son is very math-minded and does not struggle with any school subjects; he can learn from pretty much any style but prefers auditory (hearing it). Our younger son is a very bright out-of-the-box-thinker; a "right-brained" visual-spatial-learner who struggles with writing, spelling and math.

Esp. in those early years, we really HAD to find material that would fit the younger child's learning style -- he literally could not "get it" if it was not a more global, hands-on and visual presentation of material. As his brain has matured, and as we have slowly exposed him to other learning styles, he has become much more flexible.


Based on our experience, I would say that learning style is much more critical for a child who has a very strong "bent" in a particular direction, esp. in that child's early years of learning, AND esp. if it is in a subject area that the child really struggles with. But I also would say it is very important to gently be exposing that child to more than one learning style. So, initially expose them to the material "in their native language", then expand their horizons by giving them more detail/supplement "in their foreign tongue". (lol)

In one way, we've been lucky having sons who learn in such polar opposite ways -- exposure to more than one learning style has happened naturally! : ) Just our experience! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Susie-Knits]

in the younger grades to teach thru their strengths, learning styles, preferences and to work on their weaknesses a bit at a time - not all at once. Oldest son was ready for the rigors of our homeschool high school years with no problem and is now a pretty well rounded student going into 11th grade. My youngest will be in 9th next year and he will be the acid test for this philosophy. But I foresee continuing to think about his learning style and continuing to work on his weaknesses. The diagnostic/prescriptive method of homeschooling is a foundational reason for our homeschooling in the first place.

But more importantly, I am seeing more clearly the reason to give the "student" the tools that HE needs to succeed given his strengths/weakness, learning style, personality etc...
Then he can handle any type of class or learning situation.

But in general, don't you think that some success and some struggle make us all a bit more ready for learning... college ... life?
Susie

[Nan in Mass]

This is linked to another question - do you make your child great at what they are good at and let them be lopsided, or do you spend your time working on the stuff they are bad at and wind up with a child who is adequate in everything and doesn't shine anywhere. Adequate, mediocre, words like that have bad connontations that I don't want, but I can't think of a better word. Not being adequate at some things is a terrible handicap. Anyway, I think you have to find the right balance. And I think it depends what it is. I will have lopsided children, because I've chosen to go that route, having some confidence that they can fill in gaps later if they choose to do so and knowing that sometimes things are easier to learn when one is older, but I try very hard to make sure mine are at least adequate at the things that will be a handicap not to be able to do as an adult. It all comes down to what the thing is. We could have put a looooootttttt of our time into spelling and wound up with children who still didn't spell very well. We chose to teach ways to compensate and hide the disability and spend the time learning to draw instead. I do this without worrying very much about it because bad spelling is an inherited trait in both my and my husband's families and people get along fine without it. Handwriting and literary analysis are the same way. On the other hand, writing isn't something anyone likes or wants to do or is good at, and yet I insist that my children learn to write and have spent a disproportionate amount of time working on it. Math, too, is something I'm not letting mine get away without knowing. I don't care if they get to calculus, but they have to have algebra and geometry down, and have a good ability to solve problems. There have been years when my older one spent 3 hours a day on this. History lands someplace in between. Nobody likes it but everyone has to have an adequate understanding of the basics. There is a valid reason for not liking it - too upsetting, and there is an easy work-around - unemotional textbooks done without a lot of "enrichment", one that won't have reprocussions as an adult. And some things we've done at the expense of others and in order to let our children follow their passions and get good at something. My older one sacrifices quite a lot of academics to traveling. He learns tons this way. It seemed like a bad idea to take a way in which he learns well and substitute a way of learning that he is bad at but is more academic. He will be lopsided, in a way, because of it. My younger one is engineering-inclined. (So is my oldest.) His education will definately be science/math heavy and literature/history light. Yes, it is nice if engineers are well-rounded, but they typically are very lopsided. They still are productive, happy members of society, and aren't particularly handicapped by not appreciating Jane Austen or being able to spell. So I guess I think the basic build of the person comes into it, too. I still think engineers should be able read and write, and that they should be exposed to enough literature that they can see what all the fuss is about, but I wouldn't pick an English curriculum with a long reading list for those children or expect a lot of emotional analysis out of them. I'd let them spend their time and energy getting better at things that they are more likely to enjoy and use. Which things are considered necessary and which more optional is going to depend on the experience of the parents, I guess. I like the division that TWTM makes between skills and content. That helps me to decide which things are flexible and which I need to be firm about. Content is more optional, skills aren't. I also take into consideration developmental windows. Music and foreign languages are easier to learn early. Some children can't write until they are older and you can save yourself a lot of work by just waiting a bit. I think everyone needs to find the balance that works for them.

Then there is thinking. I think everyone needs to learn to think, but that that can be learned through many different subjects. Logic, math, historical analysis, literary analysis, science, ... all these things teach thinking. You probably aren't going to have the time and energy to teach them all at the learn-to-think level. Since you have to choose, I think it makes sense to pick your thinking subject with the child's aptitudes in mind. It is frustrating when a parent's aptitude is mismatched with the child's. Sometimes the parent can teach with passion and confidence in their area, but not in the child's. Then what do you do? And then there are those extra bright children who need everything taught at the learn-to-think level. And the extra bright parents who can manage to do it.

The same goes with learning to work hard. Everyone needs to learn about the hard work and discipline needed to learn something properly, but probably most people don't have the energy to teach this throughout every subject. Mine are probably learning this in gymnastics. I hope. I think there needs to be at least one area where this is taught, though.

As I said - I don't know what the answer is. I've thought about this tons, as I continue to make my middle one struggle through NEM but let him quit spelling, do his literature aloud with his brother and me, and do part of his learning by traveling and listen to Teaching Comapany tapes in the car. How much of this is me being lazy? How much of this is me being wise? How much of this is me being accepting of who he is and how he is made? Will I regret letting him play so much? Will I regret letting him travel? If he is handicapped by his wiring, then of course some things are going to be harder for him and he will always have to work harder than other people. Will I regret not just accepting that and making him do the work now so he will fit in better as an adult? I don't know.

I hope someone else has more answers than me. I'd love some fresh insight on this. I feel like I've worried it to death.

-Nan

[Laurie4b]

I think it can very well become detrimental because life does not cater to our preferences. I would have had the same response as you did with your math student. Kids that do best as adults are kids that had difficulties as kids and overcame those difficulties. They do better than kids who had no difficulties as kids and then encounter them as adults. The bulk of kids who freak out at tough colleges are those that were all-stars in their smaller high school: easy good grades, popular, etc. The mom of one LD kid I know who made it into a top-tier school told his mom, "You'd think failing something was the end of the world!" (He'd had practice at it, LOL!) I think as homeschoolers, there is a lot that we protect our kids from with good reason. In GENERAL (not in every single case), I don't think that big-bad curriculum is one of those things I'm going to protect them from.

I also do not think that learning style has as much real weight as it gets press. I find that it's most important that I understand the approach of a particular curriculum. If I understand it, I can teach it. If I can teach it, I can adapt it at any point at which it needs tweaking for a particular kid. I have two special needs dc (one of whom has pretty significant brain differences that should argue for "learning style" ), two that will probably be engineers, one creative guy, and one musician/good reader/writer. They have all done the same math and did fine, the same history, grammar, etc. I have rarely switched curriculum once I've found something that I like, and I haven't had a lot of bombs. (The one time I can think of is oldest ds did not get parts of speech through Rod and Staff; we did a year of Shurley and he got it, then we switched back. I don't think it had diddly squat to do with learning style. It had to do with format. )

[Nan in Mass]

I've had a few curriculums that my children could not learn from and I couldn't adapt enough to make work. Latin Primer is one. We would have had to spend way too much time reviewing to hang on to all those words, whereas when I switched to a read-based curriculum, mine remembered the vocab and could understand the grammar. Saxon math is another. It chopped things up so fine that one of mine couldn't put it together into a whole picture. We had to switch to Singapore. Those are learning style issues that I couldn't work around. I'm no expert, though.
-Nan

[Laurie4b]

To me, developing a child's strengths is a different question than catering to learning styles.

Nearly all adults land in some niche that is a match for their strengths. I think it's more important to develop strengths than to remediate weaknesses for all my kids, but especially my kids with LD's. Whether or not they make it in life will depend on whether they have a combination of strengths that will fit in some niche that is valued.

I do work very hard at remediation in some subjects and have a benchmark in mind that I think is necessary. Like you, Nan, they are all going to leave being able to read, write, and do algebra and geometry. Spelling can be compensated for. Handwriting can be compensated for. We do work-arounds for those subjects that just aren't going to be great.

I don't allow them to cut off a branch of knowledge in high school (as in "I hate math" so I won't plan to go beyond algebra and geom. Hate math? Tough. Doing things you dislike is part of adult maturity. Have a disability that will only let you go so far in math? We'll work together toward the competency at math that life requires, and meanwhile, let's enroll you in Toastmasters to continue to hone those great verbal skills.) Incidentally, I think that having a disability can be an asset for a child because it gives them lots of experience with doing things that you don't love and that are frustrating and with seeing that you can actually conquer things.

[LizzyBee]

I have a VSL dd who doesn't learn if information is presented in a format that doesn't work for her. It's not a matter of trying; she is a hard worker with plenty of determination and persistence. But when a kid has had 3 years of phonics and still cannot hear the separate sounds in words; when she pulls her hair and calls herself stupid -- well, something has to change. For this kid, a few strategic curriculum changes have made all the difference. I am so opposite of her that it just doesn't work for me to buy what I like and adapt it.

Sometimes I worry about how she's going to survive in college. But if she doesn't learn how to get her thoughts down on paper, if she doesn't know her math facts or how to do long division, there's no point worrying about college. For now, I am more concerned with her learning basic skills.

[Michelle in MO]

were younger that I tended to cater more to their preferences for certain materials and choices in curricula.

For example, my girls did not fare well with Saxon math (which we only used one year) so we switched the upper-level math curriculum to Lial's (Chalkdust now for Geometry). My middle daughter did well with Abeka's spelling (even though none of their spelling lists made sense phonetically at all, at least to me), but I think she was a "natural speller." My youngest, who has struggled with phonics, reading, and spelling, has done much better with Spelling Workout. (She's the kid that I wish I had tried something like Spell to Write and Read---she really needed some pretty intensive phonics work.)

So, I want to give them materials that help them succeed, build up their self-confidence, and in general give them something that helps them to feel like they can tackle and learn just about any subject.

On the other hand, at a certain point in time, this can become detrimental. I guess this is where it boils down to each individual parent learning to discern when that point comes in their child's life where they have to "buckle down" and be able to learn from the materials given them, however dissimilar to the child's learning style.

The same is true of papers. I've had my oldest two do three writing tutorials this past year through Cindy Marsch, and even though I still have to keep after them to do the work, at least I'm not the one having to set the deadline. The other day they worked for five hours on a little two to two-and-one-half page paper on Henry V! I couldn't believe how long it took them to get that done! I was determined, though, that they were going to learn to stick to a deadline. I told them, "Next year, if you go to such-and-such school, you'll be doing your papers in the evening, as homework." I think the difficulty with writing deadlines is a common problem among homeschoolers, and our family has probably been among the worst offenders. :rolleyes:

Obviously, at a certain point in time, they'll all be in college or some other learning environment where they won't have too much choice over materials. Maybe, as homeschooling parents, we can help them to use the high school years wisely, especially once they start taking classes at a community college, or perhaps an online course where the "pace" is different to one they're used to at home, to start "adapting" to the new rules and routines. For instance, if they are given a lousy science text at the community college, maybe we can help them learn to work with it, or point them in the right direction of searching out other resources that will help explain the materials better, or pointing them in the direction of the professor for further clarification, or encouraging them to form a study group over the material.

I'm not "there" yet, altogether---we're still trying to "nail down" the writing thing as far as sticking to deadlines---but these are just a few of my rambling thoughts along the way.

HTH!

[staceyneil]

What not to do:

My younger brother was dx with ADD in early high school. Despite my other brothers' and my objections, my parents decided to medicate him and cater to the "illness". He's the baby, and my guess is they took the easiest path. My mother READ ALOUD to him thoughout high school -including homework assignments- and got audiobooks for him.

He's in his mid-20s now and still can't sit down and read a book. He enjoys learning, and often checks Teaching Company audiotape lectures out of the library, but he can't pick up a book on a subject that interests him and get through it.

I really believe that if he hadn't been catered to, he would have had to figure out how to read and would be able to do so now. I think its a shame that this entire avenue of education and entertainment has been closed to him.

Not exactly an answer to your question, but sort of!

[True Blue]

Stacy, unless you yourself had ADD you'll never really know. I have a child with severe learning issues and ADD. I have a dh with the same. He doesn't read for pleasure. It takes a lot of concentration for my dh to read something yet he is very successful in his chosen career.

I applaud your mother. She made choices that I may have to make. Your brother is choosing Teachingcompany videos on his own in his 20's. He doesn't sound like an educational failure to me.

[Michelle in MO]

in cases like dyslexia and ADD, you're dealing with some very unique learning difficulties that require other educational methods than the norm.

I have a friend whose son is dyslexic, and she went to special training sessions to learn how to teach him how to read. She's homeschooled both her children, and she spent quite a bit of time over the past couple of years working quite a bit with the older son. He would get headaches just trying to concentrate on the words and figuring them out.

I have a very dear friend, my best friend in elementary school, whom I "rediscovered" thanks to the internet over a year ago. I didn't know this about her, but apparently she was an undiagnosed dyslexic for literally years through her K-12 years in our school district in Minnesota. I do remember she was in the "advanced group" in math during high school, but was an otherwise very unremarkable student. She floundered through community college and then college, and was also put on academic probation. Her youngest brother was diagnosed with dyslexia, and she decided to have herself tested. Voila! That was the problem. She then went through training herself to figure out how to work with her learning disability, and also requested from her college certain allowances that were given to other students with learning disabilities, i.e., fewer classes per semester and more time allotment on tests. She also discovered, at that time, books on tape and CD's, which changed her life dramatically. She went from being on academic probation to being a straight-A student.

She went on to get a master's degree in nursing, and then while taking chemistry class, discovered that chemistry "made sense" to her and switched to getting a master's degree in chemistry, followed up by her Ph.D. in chemistry from Georgia Tech. in either 2004-2005. Yes, it took her a while to do all this, but she had an undiagnosed problem and zero self-confidence because of the difficulties with reading. I don't think her dyslexia bothers her anymore, from what I can tell. She's now working on her second master's degree in international relations, and is trying to get funding for HTLV-1 research (which I think is a leukemia virus).

So, I say this to gently suggest that sometimes these problems are difficult to diagnose, and I would say that for people that struggle with geniune learning disabilities or other issues, the better part of wisdom is to try to meet that individual's needs with whatever curriculum or method works.

[pmegan]

I think that there's no going around that some people learn differently from other people. I guess I don't really see the value of sticking to something that's hard when you could get the same result by switching to an easier tactic. Particularly when children are young. Are you really going to stick with a math curriculum that your first grader finds tedious and confusing, just because maybe in college he won't like his textbook? First of all, I don't think they're the same. While some college textbooks are indeed dry and poorly-written, college students are expected to KNOW the material, and it doesn't so much matter how they LEARN it. Most work in college is done outside of class, with the lectures just meant to reinforce or introduce the reading and other assignments.

If you try to teach a child in a way that doesn't suit them, they will just learn that learning is hard and not worth the effort. You can see this easily by how often popular trends in teaching reading and math change. I know that WTM is gung-ho phonics, but I had awful experiences with phonics when I was in school. I just didn't "get" it. Finally, when I was in 2nd grade and still couldn't read and was about to be put in the special education class, my parents started to teach me sight-reading... and bam, by 3rd grade I was reading at a 7th grade reading level. But I completely recognize that many kids find sight-reading impossible to learn, and do much better with phonics. By being taught a method which I didn't "get", I was just learning that reading was impossible and tedious and something to dread... as soon as the concepts were presented in a different way I understood what was going on and became a voracious reader! I think that it's the same in all the "math wars" that are going in schools between so-called new math and more traditional methods: some kids learn best one way, some kids the other way, but everyone thinks that their way is the best.

By catering to a child's needs when they're young, you're teaching them how they can adapt other styles to suit themselves. What they will learn in college and in the "real world" is just an extension of what they learn in k-12. My opinion is to teach them the foundations of reading, writing, science, history, math, etc in whatever way works best: and when they are older and need to learn more advanced topics, they will be able to use the knowledge that they already have to navigate further learning.

Finally, I'd like to say that I take out some of those Teaching Company series from my library and I really enjoy them, but they can be tough going and are usually about pretty serious and dry topics. Any 20-something who listens to these for fun is NOT what I'd consider an "educational failure."

[Peela]

What about teaching style? I am built a certain way and it works well for one child and the other stretches me to find other ways to teach.
But people are talking about learning difficulties, which seem extremely common nowadays. I have a child with learning difficulties, and what seems to work is simply lots of one on one attention along with increasing insistence on getting him to try and work it out for himself, encouragement, infinite patience!
I must admit I have researched learning styles and found no information that has helped me, really, with doing a classical type education, which requires reading and writing.Sure the kids would like to watch dvds all day but I cant fit them in and have then get their other work done.
Certain curricula works, others dont, so well. But that is partly MY learning styles coming into play as well, because I will try harder to make some work, or insist, because they seem good to me, they appeal to me. For example with Latin, strict parts to whole programs don't work for me, so i dont MAKE them work for me kids and yet I MAKE whole to parts programs(or more balanced ones) work for us.

[Michelle in MO]

I have found the same true with myself: I tend to work better with certain types of books/curricula than with others, and if it's one especially that I'm actively teaching to my kids (rather than one they're working through on their own) then it has to make sense to me, as well. I don't think this is being selfish---at least, I hope it's not! It's just that certain types of books, even the layout of some books, or perhaps lesson plans that seem way too complicated---all of the above just don't appeal to me. So, I find I'm able to utilize best what is workable for me, and I trust that, in the long run, this will benefit the kids, as well.

I think it works differently for the kids when they're working through a book on their own. Then they do get more "leeway" or "say-so" in the choice of books.

And, to reiterate what I said in my first post on this topic, I am trying to get my older two girls used to the idea that not every book, not every deadline, is going to be suitable to them or convenient for their schedule.

My next post states almost the opposite: I also firmly believe that with children that are really struggling with learning in a particular area, or have some type of learning or other disability, then the parent, IMO, should try to help the child overcome that particular disability, as much as possible. In the anecdote I shared, once my friend discovered she had dyslexia, she could start working on that issue. Then she discovered books on CD and essentially "re-learned" how to read. It was a shock to her to discover that she was actually extremely bright, but with the undiagnosed dyslexia, she grew up thinking she was not very bright at all. If you saw her PhD thesis, you'd be truly amazed.

It's funny---reading this thread I find myself agreeing with what many are saying, even though we're not exactly all saying the same thing! I'm not being ambivalent, either---I think there are fine "shades of truth" here that we're all getting at. Does this make sense?

[Karin]

The goal: to prepare children to succeed in the adult world.

The path: varies. If I thought forcing them to learn one way in everything from the get-go was important, I might have left them in ps. I think there needs to be a balance. Why should my bright vs dd feel frustrated and stupid because certain methods fail her? I cater the most in the earlier years. Middle school is more of a transition. High school is the time I really expect them to learn to take whichever method I choose and to be ready to handle methods beyond their particular learning style. I only have one on the cusp of high school, but I have already seen all my children learning and how as they get older they become better equipped to learn in ways other than that which is easiest.

That said, I don't plan on giving my history-loving vs dd the same intense science program in high school I'm planning for my eldest. My eldest also won't do as much history in high school as my younger one will. But they will both get a relatively rounded education. Same with ds, but he's still 7 and mainly focused on airplanes and working for Club Med.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm doubtful about this strategy because I have a son who is finishing 11th. I began 9th by announcing that now things would be different but fortunately, he talked me into continuing to do things the way we had been, which was definately catering - I explained everything and if he got something wrong, I didn't make a big deal about it, we just tried again after I'd reexplained. If I'd insisted on doing things in a more regular high school way, my son would have turned from a happy-go-lucky-but-willing-to-work-very-hard-to-please-me child into a bewildered child on the way to becoming an angry teenager. I would have lost him. Instead, I continued to "cater" and we waited. While we waited, he continued to learn. And lo and behold, he grew up and suddenly lots of those things that were so impossible for him to do earlier became possible. And when they became possible, he did them. He just needed more time. Even if he hadn't, even if he had stayed not very competent academically, keeping that sweetness was the reason we decided to homeschool him in the first place. He went from sweet child to sweet man without the angry teenage lost stage. We knew this was a possiblility with him, whereas, with the other two, it would have been harder to avoid because they were much more independent. Not that the middle one isn't independent; he's the one that his been bopping around the world without us. I don't know how to explain. I just think that for this child, "catering" while he grew up was the right thing to do. You know, now that I think about it, the thing that makes my children angriest the fastest is when their father or I ask them to do something that they really can't - not that they just think they can't, but really can't. Somehow, they know. And I know we've messed up because they get angry. Now that I've figure that out, maybe I can teach them to quietly tell us so instead of flaring. But then I would lose my guide to whether they really can't or they just think they can't. Tis a puzzlement. Hmm... I'll have to think about that one.

But anyway, as I said, I don't know... Even with my younger one, who definately has fewer academic handicaps than the older one, insisting that he conform to the curriculum rather than adapting the curriculum to him isn't usually a good idea. He, too, even at almost 14, is still a happy, cooperative homeschooler. He wants to learn. He doesn't want to waste his time, precious time that he could be spending on his own projects. As long as I adapt the curriculum so that he is learning, really learning, he will do as I ask.

I appreciate both my sons' input. I'm a rotten teacher. The only way we get anywhere is by me letting the children do half the steering.

Jane, I'm guessing that you, too, do that sort of catering. Catering doesn't mean you don't insist that they show their work in math or try to spell things properly in their final draft, but rather that you pick curriculum that you think they can learn and grow from, and if one isn't available, adapting one. At least, that's what I think.

: )
-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

My son was so confused. I needed something that would help me undo all that confusion and Singapore, with its pictures and bar diagrams and number juggling was very comfortable for me. Later, I realized that it was also rather good at teaching the very things I was trying to teach, but that wasn't until later. Our Latin program works well for us partly because it was written by my Greek prof. I can teach it because it is comfortable and familiar. And the explanations work fairly well for my children. My children and I aren't terribly mismatched, luckily. The parents working with this handicap have all my respect.
-Nan

[Jane in NC]

Jane, I'm guessing that you, too, do that sort of catering. Catering doesn't mean you don't insist that they show their work in math or try to spell things properly in their final draft, but rather that you pick curriculum that you think they can learn and grow from, and if one isn't available, adapting one. At least, that's what I think.

: )
-Nan

This discussion has been very interesting for me to read as we wrap up another school year (although, at this point, one wonders if it will ever end!) One of the things that I noted this year was that my son was capable of writing a full blown analysis of something that interests him, but found himself incapable of putting pen to paper if the subject was not to his liking. We talked about this issue before. When presented with a list of comprehension questions for a chapter in Spielvogel, he would do half of them and then argue why the remaining are meaningless or incorrect.

Most recently this happened with The Prince. I had typed up ten questions to consider as he read. Machiavelli has much to say on virtue, yet the author's comments did not seem to resonate with my son who felt that he had no need to comment on virtue--although he would answer the questions on Italian and church history of the time, comment on the use of immoral means to achieve moral ends, etc. He was not excused from the questions that he felt were irrelevant. We talked over some, in other cases I provided some page numbers of passages for his consideration. Eventually he finished the assignment.

I have been guilty in the past of letting him argue his way out of the assignment. I think this is one reason some parents like online instruction!

There is more room for argument in the subjects in which I am less confident: writing in general and French. Interestingly, my son always plods forward in Latin without a fuss. This could be due to using Oxford texts for a while now, so he is accustomed to the drill. Or it could be that the whole to parts approach has served him well. He loves reading Latin.

One of the things that college freshmen complain about loudly is rigidity of certain teachers who insist that footnotes be written a certain way or lab reports follow a certain format, period. A new problem that has entered the arena is the advent of the online or hybrid course (half classroom instruction, half online) which often requires students enter information a certain way. I am tutoring an adult taking an online calculus course. It took him longer to figure out how to enter his epsilon/delta limit proofs in the virtual blackboard that he is using that it did to do the proofs. Apparently the system times out and data is lost. It really makes me appreciate chalk boards and pencils.

I do agree that maturity does enter into the equation. My son completed the Dolciani Algebra I book in 8th not without the occasional struggle. Same for geometry. Yet the Algebra II portion of this year's math was, for the most part, very straight forward. My son's mind seemed able to make abstract leaps which he could not have done previously. (The trig struggle is in part due to the difficulty of the text I selected. I could have made this much easier for him, but I feel that the Dolciani/Beckenbach Trig texts treats the subject with a greater depth than I have seen in any precalculus book.)

Anyway, my son is ready for someone other than Dear Old Mumsy dictating how things should be done, read, analyzed. I just hope that he is prepared.

Jane (who worries too much)

[Michelle in MO]

One of the things that I noted this year was that my son was capable of writing a full blown analysis of something that interests him, but found himself incapable of putting pen to paper if the subject was not to his liking. We talked about this issue before. When presented with a list of comprehension questions for a chapter in Spielvogel, he would do half of them and then argue why the remaining are meaningless or incorrect.

Anyway, my son is ready for someone other than Dear Old Mumsy dictating how things should be done, read, analyzed. I just hope that he is prepared.

Jane (who worries too much)

She will waste precious time arguing (not to say your son is arguing with you) over why she has to do something a certain way or why she shouldn't have to do something a certain way----than she would if she would just buckle down and do the work!

She was extremely upset over her geometry the other day when I made her write down two proofs that were each a full paragraph long. We're in Chapter 10---circles---and she'll often give me the right answer (i.e., an inscribed equilateral triangle with angle measures of 60 degrees), but for the wrong reason (i.e., the measure of the angle should be half the measure of the intercepted arc). I'm probably mangling the problem a little bit, but the point is---right answer/wrong reason isn't going to work! Yet, she'll argue about this type of situation ad infinitum and ad nauseam.

So, I feel with her, no matter which route we go for school next year, she will be the one to go either to the private school we're looking at or else possibly the community college.

It does seem like many of us give our kids a lot of leeway, especially in the early years. And, truthfully, probably high school teachers have to do the same thing as far as their expectations. If the general "standard" or level of where the kids are at, academically, is not where it should be, the teacher often has to go down to that level and attempt to "bring them up," if at all possible.

Anyway, this is a great discussion!

[Jane in NC]

Yet, she'll argue about this type of situation ad infinitum and ad nauseam.



Adolescent psychology must enter into this, yes?

[Nan in Mass]

Unfortunately, you didn't use the same part of speech I did so I can't copy you GRIN.
"When presented with a list of comprehension questions for a chapter in Spielvogel, he would do half of them and then argue why the remaining are meaningless or incorrect."
This sounds so familiar...
I think you have to ask yourself, though, if you give in because you don't want to argue, or give in because your son is right. I hardly ever give in if I still think I'm right, although occasionally I'll compromise a bit if I think there is no chance that he is going to see it my way for the forseeable future and it is something he feels strongly about. But both my sons are pretty bright, and we, as a family, are rather different from everybody else; often what would normally be ok isn't for us. We tend to alter everything we use, from fastfowarding through bits of movies to make them more fun to watch to adding windows to a wall to homeschooling and consulting so we can sail and travel more. Mine will do what I tell them to if I insist. They'll even do it instantly, with no insisting, if we're on a boat. But I know that part of teaching them to flex systems to suit them is doing a lot of explaining about what is flexible and what isn't. And if the goal is to teach them to teach themselves, then do we have a right to complain if they try to make some of the choices along the way? Especially if they can explain why this is the right decision for them and you can see why they might be right? It isn't as though there will be a magic point at which we will pass control over their education totally from us to them; this needs to be a gradual process. I think, anyway. I guess in some families it works this way, but it doesn't in mine and I suspect it doesn't in yours, either. Not that we don't respect teachers and try to let them teach in their own way. I spend lots of time saying about outside teachers, "They are the teacher. They have a plan. If you accept them as your teacher, you have to follow their plan and do it their way. There are probably reasons that you can't see." And I spend a lot of time telling my children, "I can't open your head and see just the little part you didn't understand and give you only that. I have to give the whole explanation and you have to take out that one bit. And then you have to let me finish in case I'm leading somewhere you can't foresee. If you are a student, you have to be patient." Sigh. You are right. Some subjects I really can teach. In those, the child has to be patient and let me do the teaching. In others, we figure the material out together. Those are the ones where I'm willing to do lots of listening and flexing. I think that is a good thing. I guess that if you have a child who doesn't learn easily, like my older one, then you are placed in the position of figuring out things together and you need to do more listening and flexing. What a meandering post. I always tend to talk in circles, even when it is something I've thought about a lot, like this. Sorry. I'll be good now and go do my impossible-looking day. And speaking of giving in, I'm feeling weak this morning and just totally caved and told my youngest that yes, he could listen in on his older brother's math instead of doing his own today because the end of NEM3 sounds so much more interesting than NEM1. That's how he wound up doing great books with us. Sigh. Todays already totally messed up, though, with packing and getting traveler's checks and things noterized and all.
-Nan

[staceyneil]

Nan- I did not know you also sailed! Are you going sailing on the trip you just alluded to?

Everyone- I am sorry my post about my ADD brother caused such strong reactions. I probably should not have said anything at all because I'm unwilling to share the entire story, which is that we're currently embroiled in a major family crisis around him, he is not doing well at all. I really don't want to get into it, but just want to say: yes, he takes out Teaching Company lectures from the library sometimes, but also he was kicked out of a good college and is heavily involved with extremely serious drugs. He is certainly not an educational success. And many of the things that have happened lately seem -to me- to be pretty directly tied to the way he was "catered to" in high school. Just my 2 cents. As I said, I probably should not have brought it up as I'm unwilling to go into ALL the details. Sorry about that.

[elegantlion]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. As the parent of a wiggly, opinionated, auditory learning, vocal 10 year-old, I struggle with this question. I have no doubt that he would suffer in a traditional classroom, my dh has the same style and hated school. However, I also want this child to be able to sit through a college level course when the time comes.

We also tend to alter life to conform to our family. I do make allowance for his learning style at this point, but the concessions are always peppered with "we still need to learn how to do it the proper way."

I'm saving all of these comments to pull out in the future. Thank you. :D

[Tammyla]

Great Discussion.

My opinion (fwiw) is that with older students there is only so much time, and that time needs to be spent well. If using another curriculum that will meet the standards will free up stress and time, I'm all for it. BUT it still has to meet my standards and satisfy the necessary requirements for high school and college prep.

Children with LD's or younger children often benefit from teaching to their strengths while working on those weaknesses.

[Michelle in MO]

Nan- I did not know you also sailed! Are you going sailing on the trip you just alluded to?

Everyone- I am sorry my post about my ADD brother caused such strong reactions. I probably should not have said anything at all because I'm unwilling to share the entire story, which is that we're currently embroiled in a major family crisis around him, he is not doing well at all. I really don't want to get into it, but just want to say: yes, he takes out Teaching Company lectures from the library sometimes, but also he was kicked out of a good college and is heavily involved with extremely serious drugs. He is certainly not an educational success. And many of the things that have happened lately seem -to me- to be pretty directly tied to the way he was "catered to" in high school. Just my 2 cents. As I said, I probably should not have brought it up as I'm unwilling to go into ALL the details. Sorry about that.

you do know more about the entire situation and the full picture than we do, who are only getting a "glimpse" from the outside. It sounds like your family has had other factors come into play in the situation. I don't think you meant to be harsh.

I guess I was just making the point that, in general, a child with a learning disability may and probably will need special attention and a different approach than most of us would ever need.

I know that my youngest probably does not have a learning disability, but she does seem to struggle with reading. Only now is she really starting to "get it" and latch onto reading books, and I remember when I was teaching her to read, we would go over and over phonics rules, and then she would keep mispronouncing certain words repeatedly, even though we had reviewed the rule repeatedly. It was hard for me to understand why she wasn't getting it, but then my other two were very natural readers, so I probably didn't have to work as hard with them.

I hope your brother gets back on track---the Teaching Company lectures may be an educational "lifeline" for him right now. Remember my elementary school friend---on academic probation, but now has a PhD in chemistry. So, don't let go of your hope! (Not that he has to get a PhD to be a success, but just to encourage you that he can get back on track!)

:)

[Karin]

She will waste precious time arguing (not to say your son is arguing with you) over why she has to do something a certain way or why she shouldn't have to do something a certain way----than she would if she would just buckle down and do the work!


Anyway, this is a great discussion!

Sounds like my dd. From the age of 3. Argue, argue, argue. This is the main reason I catered--to choose my battles. Just doing math is against her convictions, which is surprising since she's good at it. So while I may have chosen math programs to suit her learning style, just having her do the math and show her work is a major battle that will help prepare her for the real world. And that's just math.

However, our ps hs really isn't strong academically, and we cannot afford private school. She has improved in her work ethics in some areas, and I'm hoping that post-puberty we'll see major, rapid improvement in her attitude. Not that we're not working on that now, of course, but I think what's going on does tire her out and make her more emotional.

Even in our stricter high school years, she will have some choice, just as she would in ps--electives, etc. In real life people do have choices, so I hardly think I need to turn into a martinet to teach her to suck it up--I say this because if I'm not careful, I can be way too rigid, and there's a balance.

[Nan in Mass]

You know, I think so much depends on the individual child. My oldest and youngest both push hard and need to be firmly guided. My middle one, who is actually a much, much stronger person than the other two, crumples and shuts down. This has as much to do with why I do things the way I do as anything else, I think.
-Nan

[Jan P.]

It is frustrating when a parent's aptitude is mismatched with the child's. Sometimes the parent can teach with passion and confidence in their area, but not in the child's. Then what do you do? -Nan

I struggle with this on a daily basis with my children. I have tried hard to bring enthusiasm into my teaching, but I have one child who is so negative about whatever I am trying to present to her. I think part of it is hormones (puberty), but I'm not sure. O.K. for those who want to know, it's math. No matter what I say, my dd sits there with her arms crossed and a sullen look on her face when I go over math with her. She says that she absolutely hates it. I can understand somewhat why she hates it because I have made her redo exercises that she did not understand. She's the type that wants to get the lesson done even if Mom doesn't get to it with her. When she does this then she has a high probability of not understanding a concept, and then the lesson has to be redone. I'm now sitting with her everyday to make sure she understands the lesson before she does it. Her math is improving, but her attitude stinks! It is so difficult to remain cheerful when your dc is very negative!!

Boy, I hope she changes before we hit the high school years!

Jan

[Nan in Mass]

Is it bad catering or good catering when you could teach something with passion and depth, but it isn't something your children are passionate about, so you just do the basics in a get-it-done-as-painlessy-as-possible way? Are you caving because you don't like conflict or tailoring the education to the child's interests or sensibly conserving your energy and picking your battles?

Jan, it sounds like you've found a working compromise. It is exhausting teaching under circumstances like that, though, and the anger and frustration just builds and it gets harder and harder as a teacher not to over-react suddenly. Ask me how I know SIGH. I think you're doing the right thing, though. We've had spells like this in various subjects. If they hadn't been non-negotiable subjects like math or writing, I'd have dropped them for a year or so and then tried again later with a different book. In our case, once the child has gotten used to the routine and the new level of expectationse, and begun to understand the material well enough so it isn't such a struggle, the resentment has worn off and we've been able to continue in our usual fairly cheerful way. I hope your bad spot is temporary, too. It is very hard work while it lasts, though.
-Nan