Those who refuse state tests (especially WA): I'm feeling the trickle-down pressure

[BabyBre]

My frustrations over the Washington state test (the Measurement of Student Progress, formerly the Washington Assessment of Student Learning) are growing, and I want to refuse the test for dd10 this year because...

1. She took the 3rd grade MSP last spring. In early September, parents were allowed to apply to see their child's test booklets and promised a 45-day turn around from the day their application was received. Mine was filed promptly in the first week of September. After several e-mails and phone calls to both our state and local superintendents' offices, I finally got a phone call and I get a very supervised viewing next week.

2. During this viewing, I can take absolutely no notes - not written, recorded verbally, photographed - nothing. I understand the confidentiality of test items, but I just want to understand in what areas my child needs more help.

3. The fact that I'm having to fight for such limited feedback from this 3 or 4-day test they prepared dd for since 1st grade is additionally frustrating because it makes undeniably clear just how undiagnostic this test is meant to be. There is no benefit to the child in taking the test - teachers don't even get feedback on their own students.

4. However, each child who refuses to take the test receives a score of zero, which reflects negatively on the teacher and the school even though it's, of course, through no fault of theirs.

5. This is specifically designed to put teachers and principals in the middle, causing them to apply pressure to parents and students not to observe their right to refuse the test. I'm sick of seeing teachers being scapegoated!

6. Thus, I am left with the choice to either make my statement and spare my child, or willingly deliver, not just a withholding of the benefit of dd's high score, but an actual hit against a good, hardworking teacher. WTH?


A fellow frustrated parent told me about a loophole, and I'd like to hear from anyone in Washington state that knows about this. If I declare dd a legal homeschooler but enroll her part-time, her score (or lack thereof) won't be counted with our school's. This is actually a situation I've considered in the past, but the logistics of almost full-time attendence on an elementary schedule are tricky. She would attend part-time in every subject except math.

Anyone have any light to shed for me?

[askPauline]

I'm not in WA, but I googled a bit.

You might find this Yahoo group helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mothers_Against_WASL/messages

And you might find this document interesting:
http://www.wera-web.org/links/MSPHSPErefusalproceduremar10generic.pdf

In the end, you have to do what's right for your child and your family.

[FairProspects]

A fellow frustrated parent told me about a loophole, and I'd like to hear from anyone in Washington state that knows about this. If I declare dd a legal homeschooler but enroll her part-time, her score (or lack thereof) won't be counted with our school's. This is actually a situation I've considered in the past, but the logistics of almost full-time attendence on an elementary schedule are tricky. She would attend part-time in every subject except math.

Anyone have any light to shed for me?

This is true, and it is how the virtual academies operate. They allow up to a 99.5% enrollment to avoid having to take the MSP.

However, when you are dealing with a brick and mortar institution, the WA state homeschooling laws only require schools to allow you 3 hrs in building as a part-time student. So, to legally register her as a homeschooler and avoid the test, she can be in building 3 hrs per day or less, which may or may not be an option for you. Some schools may be open to longer attendance, but most are not, since they cannot claim the state funds for the student and are generally not willing to provide more than they legally required to for a student for whom they don't get funding to educate.

[BabyBre]

This is true, and it is how the virtual academies operate. They allow up to a 99.5% enrollment to avoid having to take the MSP.

However, when you are dealing with a brick and mortar institution, the WA state homeschooling laws only require schools to allow you 3 hrs in building as a part-time student. So, to legally register her as a homeschooler and avoid the test, she can be in building 3 hrs per day or less, which may or may not be an option for you. Some schools may be open to longer attendance, but most are not, since they cannot claim the state funds for the student and are generally not willing to provide more than they legally required to for a student for whom they don't get funding to educate.


Thanks! FairProspects, out of curiosity, how do you know so much about part-time attendance in Washington?

I have looked heavily into this before, and that wasn't quite my understanding of it. I thought I found that it's the principal or the district's discretion to allow the part-time enrollment at our particular school or not, but that whatever portion of attendance dd has, funding is received proportionately. So if she's a .9 enrollment, they receive 90% of her funding. I believe I have that in the RCWs.

Perhaps I should check with WHO? Thanks so much for your reply.

[BabyBre]

I'm not in WA, but I googled a bit.

You might find this Yahoo group helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mothers_Against_WASL/messages

And you might find this document interesting:
http://www.wera-web.org/links/MSPHSPErefusalproceduremar10generic.pdf

In the end, you have to do what's right for your child and your family.


Thank you for taking the time to search that! I have seen that WERA document before, but I had forgotten about Mothers Against the WASL. This is the first time I've seriously considered refusing it.

Thanks so much!

[FairProspects]

Thanks! FairProspects, out of curiosity, how do you know so much about part-time attendance in Washington?

I have looked heavily into this before, and that wasn't quite my understanding of it. I thought I found that it's the principal or the district's discretion to allow the part-time enrollment at our particular school or not, but that whatever portion of attendance dd has, funding is received proportionately. So if she's a .9 enrollment, they receive 90% of her funding. I believe I have that in the RCWs.

Perhaps I should check with WHO? Thanks so much for your reply.

Hmm. Perhaps the WHO would be a good resource about the specific laws. My answers are just from my experience.

I had always wanted to do half-time attendance with my kids so I researched it heavily last year. My district is one that is aggressive about funding and I had wanted to split enrollment between the district and the virtual academy. The VA had problems with my district and they refused to share enrollment. The response from the VA was that it was due to funding distribution, but perhaps I misunderstood how it works?

Here is what I found from the laws:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=392-134-005

Part-time is defined as "less than a full-time equivalent" according to WAC 392-121.

Then here is the Full-time definition by hours:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=392-121-122

Full-time for grades 4-6 is 5 hours each day (not counting lunch, which who knows if they are legally required to allow this). So, according to law then, anything under 5 hours per day is part-time.

I guess my district must just be mean, because they have defined part-time as 3 hours per day and no more. I thought this was because they were operating at the most they had to legally, but maybe if I had the resources/desire this could be challenged? I don't know. I'm so mad at the district right now with their change of math programs that I don't want my kids to go even part-time anymore.

I hope your schools are more accommodating! Let me know how it turns out though, I would be curious for future reference to see exactly how much instructional time homeschoolers are legally entitled to at the brick and mortar schools.

[mommyof2greatkids]

I'm in WA and my children are in a parent partnership enrolled at 99% so we don't have to take the MSP but still take the MAP test for annual testing. The state is reworking the rules for all ALEs in WA and one of the new rules is that any student enrolled at 80% or greater would be required to take the MSP. We can still opt out but the program will receive a zero for those that don't take the test. I think we will be pressured to take the test, the program could lose funding etc. If the school had taught my kids math I would let the school receive their scores. TERC was part of the reason I took my kids out of the school in the first place.

[JenniferB]

If I declare dd a legal homeschooler but enroll her part-time, her score (or lack thereof) won't be counted with our school's.

This is what I was going to suggest. You are already schooling at home some, from what I read in your signature. Could you just pull her out after lunch or something? I think if you even just enroll her part-time and pick her up before the last "period" of school, like an hour before school really ends, she would be considered part-time, then you could ignore the LAME Washington State testing.

I really hate the MSP. The scores don't tell you anything, and there's no way to prepare, and there's no feedback on how to improve. It's worthless. I'm sorry for your situation. I empathize. :grouphug:

[BabyBre]

I really hate the MSP. The scores don't tell you anything, and there's no way to prepare, and there's no feedback on how to improve. It's worthless. I'm sorry for your situation. I empathize. :grouphug:


Thanks for that. That's just what's hitting home as I go through this process to view dd's test from last year. It's designed with absolutely no intention of providing feedback to the teacher, parent, or student, yet the stakes are so high and about to be made higher. I don't know the specifics but I've heard they're trying to use the state test to determine teacher performance and establish merit pay and, of course, let "problem teachers" go. So when my dc receive scores of zero because the state and federal governments have set up a system that's self-destructing and on principle I want no part in it, my innocent, hardworking teachers will pay a heavy price when their only crime was that they respected a parent's legal right.

Since I'm prohibited from taking any notes whatsoever when I see the test, I'm going to try to take dd with me. I've been told I can have as long as I like to look at the test, so we'll just go over what she missed right then and there and I can check her understanding of the concepts (almost a year later). That's all I can think of that would make her taking the test worth the time and effort. If they refuse to allow that, it will be clear to me (and to them) that my high-scoring kids won't be taking another state test.

[EKS]

A fellow frustrated parent told me about a loophole, and I'd like to hear from anyone in Washington state that knows about this. If I declare dd a legal homeschooler but enroll her part-time, her score (or lack thereof) won't be counted with our school's. This is actually a situation I've considered in the past, but the logistics of almost full-time attendence on an elementary schedule are tricky. She would attend part-time in every subject except math.

Anyone have any light to shed for me?

At the moment, this is true: if you say you're homeschooling her for math, she doesn't have to take the MSP. I've heard that this might change next year and part time homeschoolers will have to take the sections of the test that are not being homeschooled.

[mommycheryl]

I'm not in WA, but NC has the EOG (end of grade) and my 3rd grader has to take it this year. I have no idea if there is a refuse to take it option. I"ll have to look into that. He missed EOQ (end of quarter) when he had the flu, not sure that would work out for me in May. :001_smile: I really worry about him because I just don't think he is going to that well on these exams.

Our EOG's are such a huge waste. I don't think anyone likes them. The teachers are a wreck, they are under huge pressures. No one like the amount of time the have to spend preparing. My son is already doing EOG prep question sheets for science. Last year in 6th, dd started EOG "boot camp" the first day back from spring break! All told, just with the standard "review crunch", tests, remediation and retaking the test, the kids have 6 weeks wrapped up in just the testing process. With all the budget cuts, I bet we could save a lot just getting rid of them!

As far as Part Time enrollment, is that something WA allows or is it district? I'd love to do that with dd next year.

[BabyBre]

As far as Part Time enrollment, is that something WA allows or is it district? I'd love to do that with dd next year.


Yes, all legal homeschoolers in Wa have the right to access public schools on a part-time basis. From what I hear, our homeschool laws are actually quite "generous" compared to many other states. A friend, a 10-year homeschooler, has just moved to Bend, Oregon and is finding that out the hard way.

[BabyBre]

Since I'm prohibited from taking any notes whatsoever when I see the test, I'm going to try to take dd with me. I've been told I can have as long as I like to look at the test, so we'll just go over what she missed right then and there and I can check her understanding of the concepts (almost a year later). That's all I can think of that would make her taking the test worth the time and effort. If they refuse to allow that, it will be clear to me (and to them) that my high-scoring kids won't be taking another state test.


Aparantly, only parents or legal guardians are allowed to view test booklets - not even teachers, and not students (although, obviously, students have already seen the booklet).

As I was explaining my dilema to my oldest ds who was trapped in the car with me after I got off the phone with dd's teacher talking about refusing this test, it became clear to me that my options are thus:

a) Stand by my principals and make my statement (however small) by opting out, thereby sparing my child the stress of preparing for and taking this pointless test.

Or, b) Compromise my principals and allow my child to be subjected to the stress of preparing for and taking a pointless test with no other benefit than an ego boost (because dd's a high scorer) to my teacher and principal.

I do love my teacher, but seriously - no contest.

An activist friend of mine who is far more in the know than I said she doesn't believe state test scores from specific classrooms are used to evaluate teacher performance (at present) at all. She feels pretty confident that's just a tool they use to guilt parents into taking the tests. Given what I know of our system, I wouldn't be surprised if that's true, and if it's teachers that are being played as pawns, too. :glare:

My appointment is tomorrow morning. I'll spend the evening doing some memory exercises.

[Spy Car]

Why so much stressing out over taking a test???

Bill

[WendyK]

Let me get this straight. They allow parents to refuse the state tests for their full time public schooled students? AND as a homeschooler you can be enrolled part time?

[BabyBre]

Why so much stressing out over taking a test???

Bill

That's the question of the decade! It's our state's response to NCLB. By 2014, 100% of the student body is required to meet proficiency to graduate (which I would argue is impossible to achieve through honest means). Last year our "proficent" rate was less than 40%, and a score of only 59% was required to pass the test. Those stats are in math, and our science stats are worse.

That pressure trickles down, of course, to districts, on to principals and teachers (with whole schools being shut down for not meeting Annual Yearly Progress), and inevitably onto the kids. However, passing the test is still not a requirement for graduation because the already low graduation rate would further plummet, yet the state and school districts lead every student and parent to believe it is. It's not, but the system punishes teachers and schools for low scores (although teachers aren't allowed to see the test and are never allowed feedback) or when parents exercise their right to opt-out (although they have to jump through hoops to get very minimal feedback). It's immoral.


Let me get this straight. They allow parents to refuse the state tests for their full time public schooled students? AND as a homeschooler you can be enrolled part time?

That's right. Because full-time students are supervised by a certified teacher, they can exempt themselves from state tests (but the school receives a score of 0, not just no score for those children). I believe homeschooled students are required to produce one approved test per year because they're not under the supervision of a certified teacher. (Washington state homeschoolers, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Homeschoolers pay just as much for public schools as everyone else via property taxes, and therefore receive equal access.

[WendyK]

Wow, that is really awesome. I don't think that is possible in NY.

[Spy Car]

That's the question of the decade! It's our state's response to NCLB. By 2014, 100% of the student body is required to meet proficiency to graduate (which I would argue is impossible to achieve through honest means). Last year our "proficent" rate was less than 40%, and a score of only 59% was required to pass the test. Those stats are in math, and our science stats are worse.

That pressure trickles down, of course, to districts, on to principals and teachers (with whole schools being shut down for not meeting Annual Yearly Progress), and inevitably onto the kids. However, passing the test is still not a requirement for graduation because the already low graduation rate would further plummet, yet the state and school districts lead every student and parent to believe it is. It's not, but the system punishes teachers and schools for low scores (although teachers aren't allowed to see the test and are never allowed feedback) or when parents exercise their right to opt-out (although they have to jump through hoops to get very minimal feedback). It's immoral.



Immoral? Schools have tested children from the dawn of time. They always have, and they always will. The current emphasis on testing (and teaching to the test) under NCLB may have swung a pendulum to one extreme, but the goals of raising school standards is a laudable one.

Every public school in the nation tests children to measure student, teacher and school performance. If you think that is "immoral" I can't imagine how you can stay in a public school, as that is a "normal expectation" in the schools.

Kids take tests in school. They are graded on tests. They take standardized tests. They will (or will not) get into colleges and universities in part based on their test taking skills. It is part of normal school life.

Bill

[BabyBre]

Wow, that is really awesome. I don't think that is possible in NY.

It is awesome. It was before my time as a homeschooler, but from what I hear, the fight for homeschool rights in Washington was a hardfought and valliant one.


Immoral? Schools have tested children from the dawn of time. They always have, and they always will. The current emphasis on testing (and teaching to the test) under NCLB may have swung a pendulum to one extreme, but the goals of raising school standards is a laudable one.

Every public school in the nation tests children to measure student, teacher and school performance. If you think that is "immoral" I can't imagine how you can stay in a public school, as that is a "normal expectation" in the schools.

Kids take tests in school. They are graded on tests. They take standardized tests. They will (or will not) get into colleges and universities in part based on their test taking skills. It is part of normal school life.

Bill


Please reread. I'm not sure how you concluded that I find testing immoral. It's the deception of children and parents and the punishing of teachers and schools who have little to no control over results that I find immoral. It's a bully system.

[Spy Car]

Please reread. I'm not sure how you concluded that I find testing immoral. It's the deception of children and parents and the punishing of teachers and schools who have little to no control over results that I find immoral. It's a bully system.

You are aware that the test result will in no way harm your child. But it appears to me that you are taking your concerns to an extreme. Administrators want tests so they can evaluate to the best of their ability student performance, teacher performance, and school performance. It is a "perfect" tool? No. But administrators can not be in every classroom and imperfect measures are all they have.

What would be the alternative? You don't test students?

The confidentially of the tests is to prevent very expensive to develop tests (which serve as a standard) from being compromised. That is pretty understandable. It really would not be reasonable to think they can make the tests and the answers available to all and think they could maintain the integrity of that test, yes?

A child (or parent) will not get the chance to look at SAT or ACT questions and answers either. That is the way standardized testing works.

Bill

[WendyK]

I'm not against testing, but I think it has gotten ridiculous. If it takes refusal and jumping up and down on the part of parents to change things I see nothing wrong with that.

Aren't children tested on the materials taught? How many tests do they need? How can we be sure that the standardized tests test what we want our kids to know (since they are taught to the test it better well be what we want them to know)? What is the point of a test that a child is just coached on taking all year long? Somehow being given a standardized test periodically (without months of preparation) was good enough before, and now it isn't?

AND the biggest one...Is it realistic to think everyone will pass a test? And if they do, then to me everything is being taught to the lowest common denominator. That is the only reasonable explanation.

Now that NCLB is not the buzz word here in NY and Race to the Top is the new fad of the day suddenly everyone realizes that WOW there are so many kids who are gifted and not being challenged. Unlike NCLB, where there were so many kids who needed special services. Now they are "racing" to create more challenge because that is what they are getting money for. They even upped what is a passing score on the tests RETROACTIVELY! So parents are now being told their kid is not doing well, even though they were told they were doing well after taking the same test. :confused:

It's dizzying.

[Spy Car]

I'm not against testing, but I think it has gotten ridiculous. If it takes refusal and jumping up and down on the part of parents to change things I see nothing wrong with that.


If you want to effectuate changes the key is to organize with other parents, teachers and principals. If you speak with teachers and principals (as I do frequently) you may find they are no more enamored of the excesses of NCLB that you may be.

There is strength in forming alliances and speaking as a group.

But individual parents refusing to take tests adds stress to teachers and principals who need more stress not a bit. It is drama queen behavior that is destructive to the school and is not the kind of thing that will win you any friends. If you think it will be good for your child to be known as "one of those" parents, I can assure you it is not the case.

Mature people can find better and more effective ways to change the system. Working positively for changes in a positive manner in alliance with others is so much more effective and helps build up the schools rather than being destructive behavior than further tears them down.

Bill

[mommyof2greatkids]

IMO the problem with the WA state test is what Breann stated earlier, to receive a proficient score students need to answer less than 60% of the questions correctly. And many kids still can't reach that standard.

When I was in school 60% was not proficient. How many parents receive their child's score and get the impression that everything is fine, my child is proficient?

[WendyK]

If you want to effectuate changes the key is to organize with other parents, teachers and principals. If you speak with teachers and principals (as I do frequently) you may find they are no more enamored of the excesses of NCLB that you may be.

There is strength in forming alliances and speaking as a group.

But individual parents refusing to take tests adds stress to teachers and principals who need more stress not a bit. It is drama queen behavior that is destructive to the school and is not the kind of thing that will win you any friends. If you think it will be good for your child to be known as "one of those" parents, I can assure you it is not the case.

Mature people can find better and more effective ways to change the system. Working positively for changes in a positive manner in alliance with others is so much more effective and helps build up the schools rather than being destructive behavior than further tears them down.

Bill

I don't disagree. I just find that the people I have met around here are either apathetic, or have bigger problems.

[WendyK]

IMO the problem with the WA state test is what Breann stated earlier, to receive a proficient score students need to answer less than 60% of the questions correctly. And many kids still can't reach that standard.

When I was in school 60% was not proficient. How many parents receive their child's score and get the impression that everything is fine, my child is proficient?

Not only that, how does this compare with how they are doing with their subjects in general outside of the testing? Are parents being told their child is doing well with subjects, but not the testing? Or is there a connection? Which is more important? Which is more informative? What explains a difference?

What am I doing on the afterschooling board? One of life's many questions. :lol:

[Rhonda in TX]

nm

[BabyBre]

You are aware that the test result will in no way harm your child. But it appears to me that you are taking your concerns to an extreme.


But individual parents refusing to take tests adds stress to teachers and principals who need more stress not a bit. It is drama queen behavior that is destructive to the school and is not the kind of thing that will win you any friends.

I don't think we're understanding each other. We may have to agree to disagree that observing one's legal right makes one "extreme" or a "drama queen". :001_huh:


If you want to effectuate changes the key is to organize with other parents, teachers and principals. If you speak with teachers and principals (as I do frequently) you may find they are no more enamored of the excesses of NCLB that you may be.


Thanks for the advice. I am involved in organizing a movement and, you're right, that's exactly what I've found.

[JenniferB]

Thanks for that. That's just what's hitting home as I go through this process to view dd's test from last year. It's designed with absolutely no intention of providing feedback to the teacher, parent, or student, yet the stakes are so high and about to be made higher. I don't know the specifics but I've heard they're trying to use the state test to determine teacher performance and establish merit pay and, of course, let "problem teachers" go. So when my dc receive scores of zero because the state and federal governments have set up a system that's self-destructing and on principle I want no part in it, my innocent, hardworking teachers will pay a heavy price when their only crime was that they respected a parent's legal right.

Since I'm prohibited from taking any notes whatsoever when I see the test, I'm going to try to take dd with me. I've been told I can have as long as I like to look at the test, so we'll just go over what she missed right then and there and I can check her understanding of the concepts (almost a year later). That's all I can think of that would make her taking the test worth the time and effort. If they refuse to allow that, it will be clear to me (and to them) that my high-scoring kids won't be taking another state test.

I just wanted to be clear that it's not tests or standardized tests that I hate, but it's the MSP. We've taken the CAT/5 since 2nd grade. The results are thorough with all kinds of graphs and numbers and things that are helpful to the parent to bring the scores up, if necessary. The MSP gives next to no feedback.

WA state is excellent though in freedom to customize your child's education, which I am very thankful for, and which I tout to all my friends. Next year my oldest dd will be taking science, math, and orchestra at the middle school. We'll be doing history & literature/language arts at home. I'll be picking up dd before lunch so as to avoid the whole "lunch scene," "popularity contest," "nerd bashing," etc. that I remember from my school days. The middle school Principal basically said, "we're here to serve you." She has an excellent attitude, I am very thankful to her for that, and I told her so.

I hope you can find just the right balance for your family, and I hope you don't have to give the school a zero. That would be sad.

[BabyBre]

I just wanted to be clear that it's not tests or standardized tests that I hate, but it's the MSP. We've taken the CAT/5 since 2nd grade. The results are thorough with all kinds of graphs and numbers and things that are helpful to the parent to bring the scores up, if necessary. The MSP gives next to no feedback.

:iagree: Yep, that's it.



WA state is excellent though in freedom to customize your child's education, which I am very thankful for, and which I tout to all my friends.


:iagree: So true! If only more parents would be willing to do so (like my dh!). Options in Washington state include but are surely not limited to public school, private school, part-time public/private, part-time public/homeschool, those public school options in virtual form, gifted programs, a variety of parent partnerships, and all without charter or magnet schools. From what I've heard, we really are fortunate here as compared to other states.


The middle school Principal basically said, "we're here to serve you." She has an excellent attitude, I am very thankful to her for that, and I told her so.


That's surprising and awesome! Sounds like you're very fortunate there, too.

[BabyBre]

Just found this documentary. www.racetonowhere.com (http://www.racetonowhere.com)

Parts of this panel discussion featuring the producers are particularly relevant to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JwpcrL9XHM&feature=player_detailpage

[Spy Car]

Just found this documentary. www.racetonowhere.com (http://www.racetonowhere.com)

Parts of this panel discussion featuring the producers are particularly relevant to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JwpcrL9XHM&feature=player_detailpage

We had a screening of this documentary as an event sponsored by the parent's organization at our school. The Principal of the school came (as did a number of teachers) and there was a wonderful discussion afterwards. Rather than being "defensive" our Principal spoke to many of her shared concerns with the issues raised n the film and there was a tremendous dialogue.

We have followed up by scheduling an event with a "Homework Expert" who will be speaking to parents at the school and the Principal and Teachers are discussion the issues.

Relations between parents and school do not have to be adversarial. A lot more gets done in a positive environment.

Bill

[BabyBre]

We had a screening of this documentary as an event sponsored by the parent's organization at our school. The Principal of the school came (as did a number of teachers) and there was a wonderful discussion afterwards. Rather than being "defensive" our Principal spoke to many of her shared concerns with the issues raised n the film and there was a tremendous dialogue.


Any dialogue at all between our district and the public would be VERY refreshing. Our district reacts quite defensively to any talk perceived as criticism, and strongly controls discussion even in public forums. I surely wouldn't find a principal that would facilitate a screening against the desires of the district administration, and while I haven't seen the film, I'd bet it would be against their desires.

Can you summarize the film? The trailer featured issues with heavy emphasis on AP courses (in which our district partakes, much as described), but what other topics are covered?

Thanks.

[Spy Car]

Any dialogue at all between our district and the public would be VERY refreshing. Our district reacts quite defensively to any talk perceived as criticism, and strongly controls discussion even in public forums. I surely wouldn't find a principal that would facilitate a screening against the desires of the district administration, and while I haven't seen the film, I'd bet it would be against their desires.

Can you summarize the film? The trailer featured issues with heavy emphasis on AP courses (in which our district partakes, much as described), but what other topics are covered?

Thanks.

The main (but not sole) focus of the film is the high degree of stress children, parents, and even teachers are under with the amount of homework (even in elementary school, but particularly in high school) and the sheer number of AP classes needed for a student to get into a good university.

It also touches on teaching to the test, the impitus for students to cheat given the pressures, and a lack of "real learning" as opposed to cramming (soon to be forgotten) information to score well on a test. And asks parents, teachers, school administrators and others to re-think the amount of pressure and focus on test taking that is taking place in the schools. It is a pretty good film.

The idea for the film was prompted by a suicide of a beautiful young girl in the filmmaker's community after she got a bad mark on a math test.

I felt very proud of our Principal for attending the screening of a film that was highly critical of the public schools in the first place, and then answering questions and parental concerts with such candor following the screening. It was a great discussion, and we plan on having more opportunities for dialogue moving forward.

Issues like homework and workload are always tricky. Our Principal acknowledged that for every parent who felt there was "too much" she had others who would complain if there were less. That split was felt even in the audience questions after a tough film. Many were sympathetic with the film, but we had several parents (especially highly successful ones educated overseas) who feel our schools are far easier than they were used to and that in a world economy Americans better toughen-up. So feelings on these topics don't bring a unanimity of opinion.

Bill

[Nart]

I don't know the specifics about standardized testing in WA, but one positive aspect about standardized testing is that it allow parents and community members information about how well a certain school is performing. My kids are not even in school yet, but I made sure we moved into an area where the public schools have high test scores. The pressure to increase test scores is even more intense in lower performing schools because they become "Program Improvement" schools under No Child Left Behind Act, which can lead to sanctions from the federal government.

[msk]

6. Thus, I am left with the choice to either make my statement and spare my child, or willingly deliver, not just a withholding of the benefit of dd's high score, but an actual hit against a good, hardworking teacher. WTH?


From this information alone, I'd personally have my daughter take the test, even if you hate it. Skipping it really does not sound like a good way to make a statement; the higher-ups presumably have no way of knowing it was a statement on your part and not just a random absence on test day or something, right? And you'd be just one data point out of thousands to them. On the other hand, the harm to your teacher is real, and quite visible to her/him. Or at least, that's what it sounds like from what you've written.

Can't you just tell your daughter to do her best but not to worry about the test? I imagine she knows quite well you think the results are meaningless, so why would she be stressed about it? You can't spare her the review period unless you take her out of school for an extended time, so all you'd be sparing her is the actual test day. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I'm sure there are other factors in play here, but based on this description of the situation it sounds like skipping the test would hurt several people and help no one. You are already working against the test in other ways that could help many people and hurt none.

[WendyK]

Many were sympathetic with the film, but we had several parents (especially highly successful ones educated overseas) who feel our schools are far easier than they were used to and that in a world economy Americans better toughen-up. So feelings on these topics don't bring a unanimity of opinion.

Bill

This is interesting to me because my husband (from overseas) often says the same thing. That schools here are far easier. YET, they didn't have homework piled on as we often do here, and school days were much shorter. So I wonder what the difference is.

[BabyBre]

This is interesting to me because my husband (from overseas) often says the same thing. That schools here are far easier. YET, they didn't have homework piled on as we often do here, and school days were much shorter. So I wonder what the difference is.

One difference is content. (See any Everyday Math vs. Singapore Math study, website, or thread on this forum.) You can study fuzzy math every night for 3 hours after school, and what you come out knowing is still fuzzy math.

[BabyBre]

Update from OP: State testing is upon us and, after much back and forth, I finally decided to allow dd to take the test. I think someone here said something to the effect that not allowing it benefits me emotionally but (by design of the system) hurts my teacher; allowing it requires me to swallow my pride (and principles) and does help my teacher who I am truly thankful for.

I think it's an unjust system and I wholeheartedly disagree with the pressure put on teachers that trickles down to the kids, the way this test shapes curricula, the way normal instruction is put on hold for weeks to prepare for this test, and now the way they're threatening teachers' jobs based on their students performance on this test (which is already in the tanks)...I could go on and on.

My teacher's reaction to my decision to let dd test was saddening for me. She thanked me profusely, over and over, as if I had just given her some incredible gift. How hard is it to be a teacher within this system? Our school board just voted to increase class sizes and remove the "weight" from special ed kids for next year, too. My heart goes out to them.

Thanks for all the input.

[talexand]

I actually do consider my kids' test scores a gift to the school. I know I am not always the easiest parent and they do a lot for us and are extremely flexible with our part time homeschooling. My kids have very high scores. I get no feedback on the test other than the number they receive when they are done. Its not useful to me. I consider the scores purely for the school's benefit. I even come in on test days and sit with the wiggliest children in the class and help them focus on the test and do well.

As far as my kids, since they score very high the test is not measuring what they know anyway. I do use it as a lesson on how to eliminate careless mistakes and maximize their score.

[LisaTheresa]

You are aware that the test result will in no way harm your child. But it appears to me that you are taking your concerns to an extreme. Administrators want tests so they can evaluate to the best of their ability student performance, teacher performance, and school performance. It is a "perfect" tool? No. But administrators can not be in every classroom and imperfect measures are all they have.

What would be the alternative? You don't test students?

The confidentially of the tests is to prevent very expensive to develop tests (which serve as a standard) from being compromised. That is pretty understandable. It really would not be reasonable to think they can make the tests and the answers available to all and think they could maintain the integrity of that test, yes?

A child (or parent) will not get the chance to look at SAT or ACT questions and answers either. That is the way standardized testing works.

Bill

Interestingly, here in Virginia we have the SOL (Standards of Learning) test. Prior year tests are available online as well as many practice tests. http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/sol/released_tests/released_tests_mathematics.shtml

Lisa

[Caroline]

Interestingly, here in Virginia we have the SOL (Standards of Learning) test. Prior year tests are available online as well as many practice tests. http://www.doe.virginia.gov/testing/sol/released_tests/released_tests_mathematics.shtml

Lisa

Not all of the tests are released. On that website the latest released is 2008. They probably cycle questions out every couple of years.

[LisaTheresa]

Not all of the tests are released. On that website the latest released is 2008. They probably cycle questions out every couple of years.

Yes, I'm sure they cycle questions out every couple of years, but since the testing is on similar material, how different do you really think they are? I don't know. Anyway, I would imagine these released tests give a pretty good idea of what to expect, but maybe I'm wrong. The schools want the kids to pass them and do everything in their power to make study materials available.

On the other hand, we use the IOWA, and I can't find any old test releases anywhere. After I read a Marva Collins book, I looked because she mentioned how she used old tests to help her students prepare for the current year testing.

I just thought it was interesting that VA releases their SOL tests at all.

Lisa

[Caroline]

The purpose of the ITBS and the state curriculum tests are very different. College Board releases AP free response questions every year and multiple choice questions about once every five years. AP tests, like the state curriculum tests, test a certain set of standards. The content for these tests is a known body of knowledge. You should be able to predict what is on the test. And if you can pass the test, you know what you were supposed to be taught that year and can move on to the next year.

The ITBS is used in a totally different way. It is not a pass/fail test. Comparing the two types of tests is is impossible.

[LisaTheresa]

.