Opinions please: Role of fairy tales/fantasy in an excellent education...

[Jennefer@SSA]

I would love opinions on this. I came across 3 quotes recently that got me thinking about this question.

Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed. -G.K. Chesterton

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales. -Albert Einstein.

When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.
-Albert Einstein

I would love the Hive's feedback. Do you agree with these quotes or disagree and why!

[Audrey]

Absolutely I agree. Fairy tales inspire imagination which in turn fosters creativity. The inability to think creatively is the greatest hindrance to the development of true intellect.

[Peela]

Absolutely I agree. Fairy tales inspire imagination which in turn fosters creativity. The inability to think creatively is the greatest hindrance to the development of true intellect.

:iagree:
Anyway, a lot of stuff that is considered "fact " is only the prevailing opinions of the day. Even science. Better to teach them to think and to have creative imaginations and open minds.
I can't imagine life without fairy tales!
Of course, many adults use fantasy to escape, in a way that is probably beyond wholesome. That's different from children. Much can be taught through allegory and stories, particularly morals, and exposure to realities that can be hard to accept in real life. Knowing other children are going through things that children face every day- loneliness, anger, loss- helps the child learn to cope and know they are not completely alone,even if the other child is in a story.
My son has had a love of dragons for years- he doesn't believe they are real for a moment, but they represent things to him I can't even imagine, put into words, or conceive, but I know they are important to his development because they are very important to him. I am sure there is a developing "hero" element.
I am sure someone else can put it far more eloquently that I.

[Shasta Mom]

Those were wonderful quotes!

[OhElizabeth]

This is rather second-hand, but I had a friend in college who took a kiddie lit class and said the prof espoused the view that imaginative works meet a need in the child to imagine, to believe in things beyond what they see. It sets the stage for faith, imagination, all sorts of things. As for whether that leads to an excellent education, I can't say. Maybe I read too many of them as a kid, because I don't have an excellent education and am a little off in possibility/imagination land rather too often. Somehow fairy tales, movies, and romantic impossibilities blend a little too much for me. I ended up marrying someone who didn't read fairy tales but is much more practical. ;)

Actually, a question I've asked myself is whether I'll read this next dc fairy tales if it's a boy. It seemed perfectly logical to read my GIRL fairy tales, but I don't know about a boy. Maybe that messes up his sense of realism? Heroic fantasy and hard core fairy tales (Lang, etc. where the whole point is to rescue or find your true love, lol) are two different things.

[Donna]

and agree completely.:iagree:

[Einen]

I've been wondering about the practicality of fairy tales...great quotes...I will be watching this thread....

[Linda...inOwasso]

Hmmm... until I read your post, I honestly never considered a "childhood" without fairy tales. Fostering dreams in children is as important as teaching them any subject or skill. If I teach my children how to do great things without instilling the desire to do so, I will have failed them. Fairy tales are one tool for instilling desire.

[nmoira]

Fairy tales are one tool for instilling desire.Even more important in the shorter term, fairy and fantasy worlds allow children to work out some pretty nasty realizations about their own world in an environment removed from their immediate reality. in his book Lost Icons (http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Icons-Reflections-Cultural-Bereavement/dp/0819219487/), Archibishop Rowan Williams has a great essay that in part addresses the importance of children's fantasy within the larger context of the premature sexualization and [I can't quite remember his terminology here, so forgive me] consumerization of children.

[Carol in Cal.]

I also think that fairy tales represent a sort of collective wisdom that is almost tribal in nature. I think that they are good for pondering, and that they build cultural literacy as well as morals, problem solving, and a general feeling of excitement and joy.

[mo2]

Agree 100%. Love the quotes.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

But even in Lang there are so many good qualities in the stories. The hero is often the smaller, overlooked, humble young man who triumphs through perseverance, curiosity, kindness, loyalty and bravery. These are great qualities for future men.
Hmm, makes me think I need to drag out the Bookshelf for Boys and Girls tomorrow and do a little reading myself.

[ELaurie]

these wonderful quotes:iagree:

[Plaid Dad]

I consider fairy tales, along with fables and nursery rhymes, a basic literary foundation on which everything else builds. I can't imagine not making them a major part of early learning (and beyond).

[Mama Lynx]

My one of my two regrets about my kids' education so far (the older two) is that I did not read them enough fairy tales. I plan to remedy that by assigning them a great deal of fairy tale reading in the next few years. I'll not make that mistake with my younger two.

I agree with all the quotes. I think they are extremely valuable.

[lighthouseacademy]

Absolutely. My oldest (a son) is VERY logical and would not tolerate me reading fairy tales to him because they weren't The Way Things Work or the like. He NEVER played pretend except for something he saw on TV grrrr. I felt very strongly that he needed fairytales. Once he could read, and liked to read to his sisters, I began checking out fairy tales from the library and strewing them so he would read them to his sisters. It worked! They have helped him to think more abstractly as well as to get into imagination more readily. It also has helped him think critically about things. He is also has found joy in reading stories and now looks forward to read aloud time.

Furthermore, much of literature will later allude to fairy tales. There are lessons to be learned and drawn on as well. Also, fairy tales provide a child the opportunity to project their concerns, fears, and emotions into a story rather than keeping them bottled inside. There are several books out there about that. The issue with scary stories is that if a child hears the story he will put in the pictures that are to the degree that he can handle... if he SEES the pictures or watches the pictures, they will be much scarier.

[Peek a Boo]

I agree that fantasy and fairy tales are important.

I don't necessarily think that the traditional ones are that important.

I also agree that at some point the dc need to be aware of the literary and cultural impact of traditional stories.

But i'm not one to do tradition for tradition's sake ;)

[5wolfcubs]

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales. -Albert Einstein.


When I saw your post title, I was going to put this quote for you! I see I didn't need too. :)
Often, when I finish a chapter book before we find the next one to read, I'll read a fairy tale or two from Lang's Red or Blue book (the only two we have). I always ask my girls, who have read both many times, if I will like the story. I don't want to be reading about grinding up bones and eating them, at least over lunch! :tongue_smilie:

[LNC]

Faerie Gold anthology by Kathryn Lindkoog (and study guide both published by P&R publishing) is outstanding. Wonderful reading material for 2nd -4th graders to read out loud to mom, and the comprehension guide is excellent also.

http://veritaspress.com/prodinfo.asp?number=460300

[Christine]

Ooooh! Can I "play devil's advocate"? (I mean, without being tarred and feathered?)

Wait, a sec. . .I have to put on my mother's attitude:

The problem with fairy tales:

The heroines are all too often beautiful, "good" and dumb.
The heroes all too frequently, handsome and rich.
The stories outcomes too frequently based on sheer dumb luck.
Magic is frequently the cause of the problem, and also the source of the solution. (Magic does not exist.)
Females, always need to be "rescued".
The use of creatures that did not exist.

Those are the ones that come to mind.

Hold those tomatoes!

I love fairy tales. . .My mother had serious issues with them (thank goodness for libraries), and those are the most oft used arguments I heard from her.

However, this whole thread has, thus far, been in agreement, so I thought I would pose her thoughts as argument.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Check out Not One Damsel in Distress (http://www.amazon.com/Not-One-Damsel-Distress-Folktales/dp/0152020470) My daughter loved it.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I recently did a talk on this. Here is an excerpt of my outline:

2) Why fairy tales are valuable:

a) Have stood the test of time

b) Larger than life

c) Provide children with rules for living; they’re grand examples of love and sorrow, courage and fortitude, being brave against the odds, living by one’s wits, and caring for the down-trodden.

d) Teach life lessons and moral values
“Like all great art, fairy tales both delight and instruct; their special genius is they do so in terms which speak directly to children. At the age when these stories are most meaningful to the child, his major problem is to bring order into the inner chaos of his mind so that he can understand himself better – a necessary preliminary for achieving some congruence between his perceptions and the external world.” (Bettelheim (1976), p. 53)

e) Illustrate cause and effect
“Experts tell us that many young criminals who have never been exposed to the cause-and-effect elements that abound in stories–particularly fairy tales–literally cannot imagine the consequences of their crimes. To correct this, some rehabilitation programs actually include reading stories aloud to young offenders.” (Fox (2001), p. 136)

f) Explore good and evil, taboos, and the supernatural

g) Characters can do things not permitted in real life

h) Children can express anger and frustration through experiences of the characters without fear of reprisal
“A child can learn more about the inner problems of man and about solutions to his/her own predicaments in any society, than he/she can from any other type of story within his/her comprehension” (Knell, 2007)

i) Help develop imagination

i) A book of fairy tales with few pictures can be great because the children have to work a little harder to imagine and create their own pictures.
“Einstein himself told the story of a woman who’d asked what she could do to make her son more intelligent.
‘Read him fairy stories,’ he said.
The woman, thinking he was being lighthearted, laughed and said: ‘And when I’ve read him fairy stories, then what should I do?’
Einstein replied: ‘Read him more fairy stories.’” (Fox (2001), p. 134)

j) Improve literacy

i) Complex plot structure

ii) Expand vocabulary

3) Are they too shocking or violent?
“When children are listening to these often horrifying fairy tales, they will become silent, fascinated, upset, appalled, aghast, and they may even cry. But if they feel deliciously safe with us while the story is being read–and indeed this is essential–the more often they will want to relive the drama. In frightening stories, it’s someone else’s drama, which is why frightening stories are so appealing. And in the end, the child is rescued by a life buoy of happiness when the good live happily ever after, and the bad come to a sticky end. Some adults are squeamish about this high level of emotion, but child psychologists say the whole point is to allow us to experience troubled realities that are different from our own, to empathize, and to make judgments.” (Fox (2001), p. 137-138)

“What distinguishes the fairy tale is that it speaks to the very heart and soul of the child. It admits to the child what so many parents and teachers spend hours trying to cover up or avoid. The fairy tale confirms what the child has been thinking all along – that it is a cold, cruel world out there and it’s waiting to eat him alive.” (Trelease (2001), p. 73)

“Most important of all, since the fairy tale guarantees a happy outcome, the child need not fear permitting the unconscious to come to the fore in line with the story’s content, because he knows that whatever he may find out, he’ll ‘live happily after’.” (Bettelheim (1976), p. 32)

a) Modern interpretations (e.g. Disney) have “sanitized” stories so they are not as effective – the child is not being allowed to live the full experience.

4) First and foremost, folk and fairy tales should be read for the sheer joy of the story

a) “Little Red Riding Hood was my first love. I felt that if I could have married Little Red Riding Hood, I should have known perfect bliss.” – Charles Dickens

References
Bettelheim, B. (1976). The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales. Random House, Inc. New York.
Fox, M. (2001). Reading Magic: Why Reading Aloud to Our Children Will Change Their Lives Forever. Harcourt, Inc. Orlando, FL.
Knell, S. (November, 2007). Spreading the Seeds of Folklore across the Curriculum. Retrieved January 4, 2008 from www.reading.org/downloads/regional_handouts/34th_plains_knell_spreading.pdf
Trelease, J. (2001). The Read-Aloud Handbook. Penguin Group (USA) Inc. New York.

[nmoira]

The heroines are all too often beautiful, "good" and dumb.This is true of some fairy tales, especially the more familiar ones. There are good collections of authentic strong female folktales available. Even the Lang coloured Fairy Books contain more spunky heroines than is the norm in older collections, because most tales were translated or adapted either by women, most often his wife.

The heroes all too frequently, handsome and rich.This is not the norm in folktales.

The stories outcomes too frequently based on sheer dumb luck.So does life. :) This bugs my husband too because his reading is more literal and he has problems seeing these stories terms of wish fulfillment (rather like Roald Dahl). I think it's reassuring to children to think that long odds can occasionally be overcome. Gives them something to hope for. Some I like better than others. I've never been a fan of the "Fool of the World and His Flying Ship" type stories.

Magic is frequently the cause of the problem, and also the source of the solution. (Magic does not exist.)Some people feel the same way about gods. :) Have you read Five Children and It, or a similar wish fulfillment gone wrong type story? Magic is a way that people's wishes can come true. Magic is also a representation of underlying power (power over another, the power of emotions) and fear of that power.

Females, always need to be "rescued".Not always, especially when you move from Fairy (the accepted fairy canon) and move to folktales.

The use of creatures that did not exist.I'm not sure why this would be a concern for some people.

[momto2Cs]

I couldn't imagine a childhood without fairy tales.

[Einen]

Do you guys know about www.storynory.com (http://www.storynory.com)? A very talented lady has read aloud several fairy tales and made them available for free download. We get a serious dose of fairytale in the car because of her.

[Mrs Mungo]

I consider fairy tales, along with fables and nursery rhymes, a basic literary foundation on which everything else builds. I can't imagine not making them a major part of early learning (and beyond).

:iagree: with Drew and the many other people who have shared their feelings. No time for an extended post, must to finish my chores!

[pmegan]

So many people have said exactly what I agree with, and have said it better! I particularly agree that:

- They teach in ways that you might not expect. They teach morals, pluck, intelligence.

- They are a great outlet for imagination. The underdog winning is a common theme, and since kids are usually the underdog they can identify and it gives them hope that someday they will be able to triumph over adversity too!

- Later books, movies, plays, art, and conversations will reference fairy tales. Knowing a variety of folk tales from a variety of different backgrounds is part of a comprehensive knowledge. It's like learning about other religions, even if you don't believe in them.

As for what Christine said, this is true of the fairy tales that get turned into Disney movies... but it is not the norm in most folk tales. Most folk tales are about the plucky baker's boy or milk maid who makes good.

And I want to second storynory! I download all the podcasts, and they're very good. We just listened to "Lazy Jack" today and it's not a folk tale I've heard before, but it was VERY funny. There was no magic and no hero... just some funny imagery.

[Jennefer@SSA]

I had never really pondered the why of fairy tales, I just knew I wanted my children to be exposed to them. In my research I was surprised to find out there was even a debate on the issue.

Thanks for sharing your ideas and opinions...and great resources! I learned to much!

[St. Theophan Academy]

Another great book I think - if you are hesitant or want guidance in judging fairy tales (ie why what Disney puts out does not really qualify as good fairy tales :) A Landscape with Dragons - a great discussion from a Christian viewpoint about why fairy tales are good, and the importance of discriminating between tales, and some good criteria for judging tales.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think fairy tales and fantasy are tremendously important for children who have almost no control over their impulse towards imaginative play. First, they are part of the basis of a child's literary experience along with nursery rhymes. Second, in a world where children are glued to TV and video game fantasy lands (which never require them to imagine) fairy tales are the perfect antidote. They help them create their own fantasy lands. Deep at heart most children know they are not real, that there are no dragons, no magic but the difference is that they can suspend disbelief and hope. I think that it is that basis that allows adults to hope and dream as well.

Besides, as one example, if you didn't know fairy tales how would Shrek be funny? :)

[Eliana]

I think fantasy (including folk and fairy tales) has a important role to play in an excellent education - and other posters have shared a number of fabulous arguments for including them (including Drew's which I want to agree with explicitly that they are a a core part of a literary education).

However, I am opposed to adult-introduced fantasy in the very early years. Very strongly opposed. It is my opinion, based on experience, observation, anecdote, and Dr Montessori's studies and writings, that very young children's needs are best met by stories, images, etc which reflect the "real world", the one they can see and touch and explore... the one they are trying to figure out.

Also, I believe (based on the same list as above) that it is best to allow a child's own imaginative and fantasy worlds to develop before introducing outside images and stories - and I have passionate opinions about fantasy movies and children under around 6 or so.

The actual ages have varied widely (my eldest had no use for or interest in fantasy until she was 8 or 9, ds was about 4.5...), but the progression has been so clear in each of my children (and in the children my mother has observed in her Montessori classrooms). ...so we introduce fantasy as we see that our kids are ready to get the most out of it. The interest seems to peak... each of the kids so far has gone through a stage of devouring folk and fairy tales - for a while there it is the main focus of their reading - and then the interest fades a bit and each of them seems to find the level of fantasy s/he likes best in his/her reading.

I don't give the more explicitly gory ones to my younger kids.

We don't do Disney at all. Ever.

I do like to give them a myths, legends, folk tales, etc from a wide range of countries and cultures - we own hundreds of books in this category.

I like to choose versions which are intrinsically enjoyable and valuable - and which are aesthetically pleasing, having a rich use of language, and are tightly written. (There's a lot of junky stuff out there, imho, and when there are so many well-done versions out there, we want to choose the best.)

As kids move beyond the folk and fairy tale stage, there are many really fabulous fantasy books out there - rich, imaginative, well written, and very worth reading. I think they are an extremely valuable part of our children's lives.

[Eliana]

Ooooh! Can I "play devil's advocate"? (I mean, without being tarred and feathered?)

Wait, a sec. . .I have to put on my mother's attitude:

The problem with fairy tales:

The heroines are all too often beautiful, "good" and dumb.
The heroes all too frequently, handsome and rich.
The stories outcomes too frequently based on sheer dumb luck.
Magic is frequently the cause of the problem, and also the source of the solution. (Magic does not exist.)
Females, always need to be "rescued".
The use of creatures that did not exist.

Those are the ones that come to mind.

Hold those tomatoes!

I love fairy tales. . .My mother had serious issues with them (thank goodness for libraries), and those are the most oft used arguments I heard from her.

However, this whole thread has, thus far, been in agreement, so I thought I would pose her thoughts as argument.

My mother has always hated fairy tales too - but she provided us with as many as we wanted when I was growing up... we just had to read them to ourselves! She had none of the issues you listed, she just didn't *like* them... she dislikes nursery rhymes too...

I think your mother's first two objections must have been based on a very limited group of stories, b/c they do not match my experience with folk and fairy tales at all (think of all those poor woodcutter's sons! Or the plucky heroines who saved the day (and often the hero) in one imaginative way or another.)

The stories outcomes too frequently based on sheer dumb luck.

So many stories give luck (or fate, or chance, or destiny) a major role in the plot... it's the quality of the story telling that determines whether this knocks us out of the story or draws us in.

Magic is frequently the cause of the problem, and also the source of the solution. (Magic does not exist.) and The use of creatures that did not exist.

This is an interesting objection. [Side note: In that first sentence you can substitute technology and have another interesting discussion (for sci-fi you can include the X does not exist as well....).] I think the very fact that fantasy is set in world/setting not our own, frees both the reader and the storyteller to explore character and situation in ways and on levels it would be difficult or impossible to do in a realistic setting. I think one can learn different things about 'the human condition' in a fantastical setting... and I think some of the deeper truths about life and love and people and relationships can only really be understood through allegory or indirect exploration. ... which is why so many religious traditions use allegories.

I don't use fantasy to teach anything to my kids... but I think I view their extensive reading, in a variety of genres, the way I do their work with manipulatives... they are absorbing understandings on a subconscious and/or semi-conscious level. I don't interfere with that, or try to control the message they get from it, but I can see the impact of all that groundwork when we do start dealing with topics directly and explicitly.