Maybe HS to PS, New Math ??

[hmschooling]

PS here teaches New Math. DH is pushing to send our two older kids to PS. We are using Math Mammoth- 1st grader in MM1 and 4th grader in MM3 to fill some gaps. What are my kids and I in for if they enter PS 1st and 4th grades using New Math?
I live next door to the principal and one example he gave of their math that bugs me (other than no longer doing facts) is kids are given options to choose based on their math abilities. If a kid can only count to 10, then in the problem adding # crayons in one box and # crayons in another box equals # crayons all together...the kid can pick the numbers 3 and 5 or if they can count higher, they can pick 8 and 6. What?! :confused:

[regentrude]

If I needed one single reason to homeschool, the school doing "New Math" would be it.

[hmschooling]

If I needed one single reason to homeschool, the school doing "New Math" would be it.

That bad? Can you give me specifics? I need "evidence" to present to DH.

[regentrude]

That bad? Can you give me specifics? I need "evidence" to present to DH.
What specific curriculum is being used? As far as I understand, "new Math" is a trend, not a curriculum name. Examples may be "Everyday Math" at elementary and "Connected math" at middle school level..

Typical problems with these type of curricula:
- heavy reliance on calculator use, even in elementary school
(the teacher manual for Everyday Math says things like "teaching long division in class is a waste of time")
- does not teach traditional algorithms - kids are encouraged to find creative problem solving strategies (nothing wrong with that!), but the fastest method is not practiced to mastery
- watch out for ideas like "It is sufficient to understand the concept, it is then not necessary to practice the skill until it is mastered" and "the correct result does not matter"

A list of individual issues can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Mathematics (I just skimmed teh article, don't have time to verify everything)

When connected math was implemented in DD's classroom in 6th grade, the students were folding paper strips to "measure" fractions. That is an appropriate activity to visualize fractions for 2nd graders!
We had toyed with the idea of homeschooling - the math curriculum pushed us over the edge to do it. DH and I teach physics at university and are aware of the sad state of math skills of the students and the importance of a solid background in math - THIS was not the remedy.

[Renee in FL]

Does your school use "New Math"?

My dc's school use a Singapore based program.

[mich311e]

The principal's reply makes me go "huh?" Did he tell you the name of the curriculum? Is it TERC investigations or Everyday Mathematics? Those are two of the most common known "new math" curriculum, but I've heard of a few others.

This video shows some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

[Spy Car]

Everyday Math and TERC are not "New Math." They are what are call "Reform Math" programs, but these are distinct from 1960s era "New Math" (such as CSMP).

Bill

[Renee in FL]

The principal's reply makes me go "huh?" Did he tell you the name of the curriculum? Is it TERC investigations or Everyday Mathematics? Those are two of the most common known "new math" curriculum, but I've heard of a few others.

This video shows some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

I *think* the principal is talking about making up addition problems. When they first start learning the concept of addition, they get to make up their own problems using manipulatives and then drawing them on the page. Later they move onto actual pre-designed problems.

[Heigh Ho]

:iagree:

That's a pretty good sign that the staff noticed the students have difficulty with word problems and are effectively remedying that deficit. I wouldn't run..I'd ask what the rest of the curriculum consists of. And I'd ask that question to a person that actually knows math, which may not be the math specialist and is more likely to be an older teacher who has a degree in math and gifted and enjoys K-3.

[hmschooling]

I *think* the principal is talking about making up addition problems. When they first start learning the concept of addition, they get to make up their own problems using manipulatives and then drawing them on the page. Later they move onto actual pre-designed problems.

He said that it gives them two pre-determined pairs of numbers to choose from in a pre-designed word problem. He also said most of it is word problems like that and no memorizing the facts anymore. Hopefully they aren't JUST now learning the concept of addition in 1st grade...or is that normal? Hopefully 4th graders don't get to choose their numbers as well.

I plan to talk to him more....he's my neighbor but I rarely see him! His DD is same age/grade as my DD so I asked to see some of her homework and books. Hopefully I'll get to see it soon. We just moved here and don't know everyone well yet, but my DS7 has made friends with a boy on our street that we see everyday who is in the same grade as him...so I could likely see if he has some I could see as well.

[Renee in FL]

He said that it gives them two pre-determined pairs of numbers to choose from in a pre-designed word problem. He also said most of it is word problems like that and no memorizing the facts anymore. Hopefully they aren't JUST now learning the concept of addition in 1st grade...or is that normal? Hopefully 4th graders don't get to choose their numbers as well.

I plan to talk to him more....he's my neighbor but I rarely see him! His DD is same age/grade as my DD so I asked to see some of her homework and books. Hopefully I'll get to see it soon. We just moved here and don't know everyone well yet, but my DS7 has made friends with a boy on our street that we see everyday who is in the same grade as him...so I could likely see if he has some I could see as well.

Some kids are just learning to add in 1st grade. K is usually for exposure and 1st goes over the same material faster and more in depth.

It is almost all word problems, but the three teachers I am exposed to also expect memorization of the facts.

I would ask some more questions. It could be that "fake" math that everyone talks about or it may be fine, just different.

[hmschooling]

It's TERC...:glare:

And they started today. But, we are only part way through Math Mammoth 3 with my 4th grader and the math assessor was super pleased with my DD's number sense, ability to break apart numbers, and very impressed with her conceptual understanding and application to new concepts. Said she felt fine putting her in 4th grade, even though it's mid-year. Math Mammoth THREE, for my FOURTH grader, and she is fine going into MIDDLE of FOURTH GRADE. Yay for Asian math!!

[Heigh Ho]

Ah, now you can answer the orignal question of 'what are my kids in for'. In general, it's a real good idea to keep afterschooling math when the school uses a reform curriculum; or to keep an eye on what was accomplished and then do the rest over the summer.

[hmschooling]

Now that they are in and so tired when they get home, and both have homework, how in the world can I after school them in math?! We got home about 3:45, then there's some free time, little ones to care for, homework, baths, dinner, daddy/family time and they are ready for bed by 7:30 from pure exhaustion. We have Math Mammoth for both but don't have the time. Plus I have to continue our phonics with DS7. :confused:

[Caroline]

One thing I do is send the math work with my kids to school. They always have a Singapore Math book in their backpacks. The teachers have no problem with my kids pulling it out to work on when they finish up their required work. (So far it hasn't been an issue K-10th here.)

I know a lot of people do some math in the mornings before school. We leave at 7, so that doesn't happen here. Mine are home by 2:30, though, so they have plenty of time after school. DH works from home, so specific daddy time is not really needed. (Although, could Daddy-time be used to do some math?)

[hmschooling]

One thing I do is send the math work with my kids to school. They always have a Singapore Math book in their backpacks. The teachers have no problem with my kids pulling it out to work on when they finish up their required work. (So far it hasn't been an issue K-10th here.)

I know a lot of people do some math in the mornings before school. We leave at 7, so that doesn't happen here. Mine are home by 2:30, though, so they have plenty of time after school. DH works from home, so specific daddy time is not really needed. (Although, could Daddy-time be used to do some math?)

We are out the door at 7:30ish here...so before school won't happen here either! They get out at 3:00 but it takes a while to pick up at both schools and get home-- I leave early to wait in line for the first pick up to get home sooner-- 2:30 we're out the door to pick up, bell rings at 3, home by 3:45. I live 5 minutes from the school...crazy! They'll get home at the same time if they ride the bus. Anyway, I can't imagine making Daddy-time math time! He's been in school for years and just graduated so they are getting time with him for the first time in so long. He already helps with homework anyway.

Any other ideas? DD wants to do Visual Latin and a independent Bible study, but we have yet to find time to fit those in...much less math. I'm stressin' here! Seriously would rather just keep them home and do all the work in the AM...not an evening schooler at all...too much to do with 4 littles at home and supper to cook and bedtime routines! Perhaps we'll just do weekend math sessions, plus every other day in the summer. Not sure how far we'll get, but it's better than nothing.

[BabyBre]

Pm me to comiserate about TERC Investigations when you're ready. ;)

It's truely a serious problem that's partly responsible for bringing the US down in international rankings.

You must watch this excellent video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

I also highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1610480457/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

And the author's blog: http://betrayed-whyeducationisfailing.blogspot.com/

All the research is out there, along with the evidence that school districts are choosing to ignore it and why.

Whatever you do, don't quit homeschooling entirely. I've been homeschooling against the effects of TERC for four years using Saxon at home. If you plan on using Saxon, I can let you know what I've found about how the two curricula line up.

[msk]

Is TERC Investigations the same thing as Scott Foresman Addison Wesley Investigations? That's what my local district uses, but my daughter hasn't started K yet and I've had a hard time figuring out whether they're the same program or just related in some way.

[AmyinMD]

Is TERC Investigations the same thing as Scott Foresman Addison Wesley Investigations? That's what my local district uses, but my daughter hasn't started K yet and I've had a hard time figuring out whether they're the same program or just related in some way.


That isn't TERC. Our district uses TERC for K-5 but I've heard rumors they are going to discontinue it next year. I'm not sure what they are planning to switch to. There is a petition with over 1000 parent signatures asking that they switch programs so lots of parents are unhappy with it.

[BabyBre]

Is TERC Investigations the same thing as Scott Foresman Addison Wesley Investigations? That's what my local district uses, but my daughter hasn't started K yet and I've had a hard time figuring out whether they're the same program or just related in some way.


The full title is Investigations in Number, Data, and Space and it's published by Pearson, however, any title that includes the word "investigations" is likely a red flag for a reform math program. Words like investigation, constructivism, discovery, student-centered, etc. typically refer to a primarily hands-on, conceptual approach, less focused on teacher direction. In itself, that may be one way to cement concepts, but the flaw in most of these programs is that they take far too long to shift to the more efficient and independent methods that we learned in the past, or they don't make the shift at all and simply go straight to calculators.

[Heigh Ho]

We are out the door at 7:30ish here...so before school won't happen here either! They get out at 3:00 but it takes a while to pick up at both schools and get home-- I leave early to wait in line for the first pick up to get home sooner-- 2:30 we're out the door to pick up, bell rings at 3, home by 3:45. I live 5 minutes from the school...crazy! They'll get home at the same time if they ride the bus. Anyway, I can't imagine making Daddy-time math time! He's been in school for years and just graduated so they are getting time with him for the first time in so long. He already helps with homework anyway.

Any other ideas? DD wants to do Visual Latin and a independent Bible study, but we have yet to find time to fit those in...much less math. I'm stressin' here! Seriously would rather just keep them home and do all the work in the AM...not an evening schooler at all...too much to do with 4 littles at home and supper to cook and bedtime routines! Perhaps we'll just do weekend math sessions, plus every other day in the summer. Not sure how far we'll get, but it's better than nothing.

Another idea would be to have them ride the bus. You could then use the hour and fifteen minutes you were using for pickup to do supper prep, which would also double as practice in math for the 4 yr old (setting table is 1:1 correspondence and counting practice, food prep can involve measuring and time and listening comprehension) and free you up to help the older children with afterschooling. In our house, at this age we just used the hw time slot to afterschool anything requiring paper...if they had a lot of hw, we skipped and used the weekend and the many days off during the school year. We use the family time to play games that involved mental math..card games, board games, darts etc.

With a 4th grader, you'd be wise to make sure that anything the school didn't do was covered at home over the summer...so often the schools flub 4-6 fractions, decimals, geo, and problem solving. We found we could easily do a Singapore Math book over the 8 weeks of summer and that was enough to stay at the top of the grade in acheivement terms.

[hmschooling]

We're settling into more of a routine and fitting in our Math Mammoth for DD9. They are riding the bus home in the afternoons and I'm taking them in the mornings. They still get home at 3:30, and they are the only kids inside doing homework instead of out playing, but oh well. ;) well, there may be one more family whose kids are not out immediately after school. They also have more than one to work with (4 as well I believe). I just can't let them go out immediately or we are stuck trying to do homework at night and get NO time together. This has made a HUGE difference in our afternoons and evenings. Homework, chores, play outside, baths while I do dinner, eat and clean up, family time, short devotional, and bed. Routine has made all the difference. ....now if only DS7 didn't have so much homework each day I could fit in some of our stuff for him as well.

[BabyBre]

Yay! Glad to hear it's working out for you. We also can't play until homework's done right after school. If dc sit down to a little bit of homework every day at the kitchen counter after they get home, while I empty out their backpacks and lunch boxes, it's relatively painless.