Reflecting on these posts about teaching literary elements -

[Pster]

I think from what I've read I shouldn't worry about covering that till 5th grade, right?

.......my dd is only 2nd going into 3rd so I figure we have some time.

That said - shouldn't there be some groundwork laid before 5th? So that those concepts aren't totally foreign?

I haven't seen much on a 3rd/4th grade level about literary elements.

They aren't discussed in either Writing Tales 1 or in FLL3 are they? (just thinking of new bks we'll be using in 3rd) Should I introduce these concepts in 3rd/4th gr or just wait?

~~more home school worries! want to make sure I don't skip over anything!!

[Pster]

and when I say introduce - I mean lightly - I'm not talking about a in depth study of it.... just to be familiar with them.

[8FillTheHeart]

I don't worry about it until even later, usually 8th grade. This yr is my youngest time around.....my 6th grader is doing LL from LOTR with my 8th grader.

Personally, I don't think if really matters one way or another. My POV is that I don't teach analytical writing until late middle school b/c it requires maturation in not only analyzing, but formulating independent ideas all combined with strong writing skills. Literary analysis doesn't take much time to conquer, so I dont' see any reason to belabor it. Sometimes some things simply come up in our conversations, but it isn't something I specifically intend to focus on or teach prior to middle school.

[Pster]

wow that late? hmmmm - hope I don't forget it till then! lol

thanks

[Karen in CO]

Just another way of talking about reading. It adds to their vocabulary and understanding. We talk about plot, character, setting as the first elements. We talk about what makes a story interesting and what a story is really about. Who is the main character? What was he trying to accomplish? What kind of person was he? What do you think happened after the story was over? Where was the story set? Was that important in the story?

I do lit. analysis with my older which is probably why it is easy to do it with the younger also. I think it adds to the story.

FIAR (http://www.fiarhq.com/)does a good job of gently introducing lit. analysis. It has lessons on character and setting. It gets the kids used to talking about stories in a more in depth way. It is a really gentle approach to literature in the early grades.

It is something that the kids will be required to do. To me, it makes sense to at least start learning about it yourself so that you can be comfortable doing it with your kids.

[OhElizabeth]

VP recommends using the How to Report on Books series in elementary, and it hits on literary elements in an age-appropriate way.

[Trivium Academy]

We're using How to Report on Books Grades 1-2 this year (OhElizabeth recommended it) and it covers main character, characteristics of the main character (descriptive words), setting, sequence of events. SOTW 2 did a sequence of events activity in the AG for the Marco Polo chapter. I would think the basics like that would be fine but I wouldn't get into the more complicated analysis until later. We're getting Teaching the Classics (it's on the way right now) so that I can learn better how to naturally talk about this stuff with my dd7 as we read.

We're already talking about the characters in the books we're reading, the setting and how that affects the story. We just finished The Door in the Wall as a read aloud and the main character was an excellent example of fortitude so I talked to dd7 about that and how his fortitude grew as the story progressed. We also talked about the settings within the story, what it would be like to sleep in a hollowed out log at night during the Middle Ages, etc.

I've read Deconstructing Penguins -which I HIGHLY recommend it has great suggestions for talking to younger children about the books you're reading. It has reading suggestions and book club examples for 2nd grade and up- the book club mentioned is a Parent/Child book club, very inspiring.

You might want to read "How to Read a Book" by Mortimer Alder or The Well-Educated Mind by SWB for yourself so you can get a feeling for questions that are better for older students.

Hth!

[Julie in MN]

We have learned many of the literary elements by using Writing Strands. I know everyone doesn't like it, but SWB does. It has very focused lessons on things like first person vs. third person, plot sequencing, characters with negative or positive outlooks on the story, setting description from different character's points of view, and so on.

Julie

[angela in ohio]

I'm always in favor of mom learning and then discussing these things casually, so that dc think they are interesting. But even like that, I don't do much on literary elements (metaphor, etc.) until 4th-5th grade.

[Pster]

yes,.... maybe the book report idea would be along the lines of what I'm thinking.... it would introduce the concepts to her which is what I was looking for. I probably should look for those bks that were mentioned for me - I need the refresher course! I'll go look at the library!

ty all!

[ArwenA]

We have been using Deconstructing Penguins here. DD9 and I have a mini book club where we read their recommended books and discuss them. We're almost at the end of their suggestions so I'm thinking about where to go from there. I'm thinking we'll keep up our "club" but I'll just have to find books myself.:)

[Debra in CO]

I really enjoyed Teaching the Classics, and I've tried to use that with my kids over the past couple years (they're in 5th, 3rd and 1st). It's pretty casual at this point, and mostly focused on character, plot and setting.

One of my favorite conversations was after a Shakespeare play with my oldest last year. I don't remember which it was, probably As You Like It. But we got into a conversation about the setting, and whether or not the story would work if it was set in the middle of a big city. What would work? What wouldn't? Why do you think Shakespeare chose to put them out in the forest?

I think it is nice to get the kids familiar with some of the terminology before we start getting terribly formal about it.

I keep thinking I need to get my hands on Deconstructing Penguins. Thanks for the reminder :)

Debra
Mom of five, ages 1-10

[Herding Cats in NC]

~~more home school worries! want to make sure I don't skip over anything!!

I hear you! I'm always worried that I'll miss that one piece of vital information and my dc's future will be ruined because of that. How silly is that? Logically I know that it makes no sense, but, there it is. And honestly, this is one area I worry about a bit because there aren't always concrete answers. As opposed to, say, math, where you're either right or wrong. How do I know if I'm doing it right? And enough?

We are about halfway through WT1, and while we love it, I would not say that it introduces literary elements. Its focus it more on the mechanics of writing (which is what I expected and wanted). I'll second (or third? or fourth?) the book Deconstructing Penguins. It actually shows how they work through books in their book club, which can give you some ideas. It would give you a good idea of how to do a gentle intro to literary analysis. But, if you come up with better ideas, be sure to post!

[Pster]

great thanks!

[Ali in OR]

I just finished Deconstructing Penguins and I have 2 more sessions to watch of Teaching the Classics. Both of these are excellent resources and I highly recommend them. I particularly like the structure of Teaching the Classics (fits my math brain). He uses a chart that provides a systematic way to talk about setting, plot, conflict, etc. I liked Deconstructing Penguins' method of analyzing who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist. I've learned a lot from both programs and I would like to use these techniques with my dd soon--if not this spring than certainly next year in 3rd grade. I can see just doing maybe 3 books per semester that we would analyze and talk about together. Nothing written at this point. I think she would like it a lot.

[Janice in NJ]

Sometimes I see the see-saw this way. On the left side is all of the things that I KNOW we should be doing and the understanding and knowledge that I realistically shouldn't add one more thing to my kids' plate! Piled on that side are all of the words of advice from solid BTDT folk (like the bees on this board) who also tell me that things like literary analysis can wait until they are older.
It's a BIG, tall, confidence-boosting pile.

However on the other side of the see-saw is the future. My kids' future. And that big "thing" called LITERARY ANALYSIS. If I ignore it, my pile on the left sits solidly and confidently on the ground. No problem! But on those days when I'm having a bad day - and my kids are having a bad day - I take a quick glance into the darkness of what is on that right side of the see-saw and suddenly it looms up to gargantuan size. I start feeling really stupid. How are we ever going to get there. This kid can't remember to zip his pants!
I panic.

I start posting.
I resolve (usually on a Friday :)) to re-work things and right the ship. Maybe my seven year old should be reading the NY Times Editorial page - outlining the arguments and discussing the fallacies.
Maybe my ten year old should be comparing Hester from the Scarlet Letter to Jane Eyre - in a twenty-page paper that should be worthy of 1st prize in some genius competition.
Or maybe I should just teach the boy to remember to zip his pants. Maybe that's all I can hope for. :D

And then I usually find THE way to balance the see-saw -without ignoring the monster on the right. Let's face it. That wasn't really working. Ignoring the fact that I'm not really sure WHAT LA is - much less how to teach it, wasn't really a plan. It didn't really bring peace. It just made me feel anxious.

What did it? Self education. :p There are some terrific resources out there - many have been mentioned here - that make it so easy to pick up the clue phone on this one.

If you don't care about it yet, then don't worry about it.

But if you feel like it is time to tackle this, then just do it!
Knock that sucker OUT OF THE PARK, MOMMA!!!!!!!!!

If you're anything like me, you'll learn SO MUCH! And remember - you don't need a program to TEACH it to a seven year old. YOU just need to learn it yourself. However - the cool thing is this: the things that your child IS doing - the books that they ARE reading - the picture books that you read aloud to them will start talking to you! Big time! You will find so many ways to casually bring these things up in conversation. Or not.

But either way, you'll have those skills in your pack when it comes time to teach it.

And you can walk away from that see-saw.
You don't need it any more.

Rock on, momma!

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[8FillTheHeart]

Maybe my seven year old should be reading the NY Times Editorial page - outlining the arguments and discussing the fallacies.
Maybe my ten year old should be comparing Hester from the Scarlet Letter to Jane Eyre - in a twenty-page paper that should be worthy of 1st prize in some genius competition.
Or maybe I should just teach the boy to remember to zip his pants.

LOL!!! Janice, you are hilarious. :)

Yep....don't sweat the small stuff. I much prefer to simply talk about literature informally when they are younger. We have great conversations and my kids still manage to achieve critical thinking. ;)

[Janice in NJ]

Just tellin' it like it is... and trying not to get whacked under the chin by all of those ever-tilting boards.
I forgot to ask, how is the house selling thing going? I hope all is well!

[prairiegirl]

My oldest is in Gr. 3. I use Teaching the Classics for me. While we are doing our read aloud, we casually talk about setting, plot, character, etc. I will do this lightly for a few more years. I will start on a more formal level in Gr. 7. For now my goal is just to make my dd familiar with these elements and what makes up a story.

I keep hearing about Deconstructing Penguins but never new what it was about. From reading this thread, I am thinking that I will have to make a concerted effort to find it.


Julia
mom of 3 (8,7,5)

[angela in ohio]

I keep hearing about Deconstructing Penguins but never new what it was about. From reading this thread, I am thinking that I will have to make a concerted effort to find it.

I reviewed it here (http://www.wallsofbooks.com/2007/12/chopped-penguin.html) at my blog... it really is an excellent book! :)