Why would one use other grammar programs if they plan to use AG for middle?

[one l michele]

From what I've seen on the AG site, the author feels 6th is sufficient for starting grammar and JAG simply introduces the same concepts in the first 10 lessons of AG just in an easier reading level. So why use JAG and other programs before instead of waiting until 6th and using AG? Wouldn't using multiple programs with different approaches possibly confuse dc?

[Deece in MN]

Well, my opinion is that people are under the impression they have to introduce formal grammar in the younger years. Whether it is out of fear their child will miss out on something or because that is what ps does or because the homeschool mom that does it all has her young children diagramming sentences ( :) ), the bottom line is that I think we have been misled into thinking formal grammar is necessary in grade school.

I agree with AG that formal grammar is not needed before 6th-7th grade or so. Anything a child needs to know before that time can be covered in a natural, gentle way. In the course of everyday reading, writing and conversation children will learn what nouns and verbs are and how to use basic punctuation.

If you wait until the child is older (around 12-14) to start formal grammar, they will pick it up much easier and faster and you only have to cover it once.

I know not everyone will agree with my viewpoint. If one so feels that formal grammar in the younger years is necessary, then by all means go for it. The above is just my opinion.

[Linda...inOwasso]

I'm planning on using AG myself and I've wondered about the JAG. Does anyone know if JAG is the EXACT same first 10 lessons of AG? If so, I would prefer just to buy AG and wait a year rather than buy JAG only to repeat the same thing at the beginning of AG.

Hope someone with experience can clarify. Thanks!

[Lisawa]

JAG and AG have different lessons.... its just the same in concept. *Ü* My 6th grader is flying through JAG and will be in AG next year... my 15 year old is working through AG and will finsih next year instead of the 3 year route....

HTH~

[Trivium Academy]

From what I've seen on the AG site, the author feels 6th is sufficient for starting grammar and JAG simply introduces the same concepts in the first 10 lessons of AG just in an easier reading level. So why use JAG and other programs before instead of waiting until 6th and using AG? Wouldn't using multiple programs with different approaches possibly confuse dc?

My answer to this in regards to our homeschool is that I'm not worried about the grammar aspect of using another program before Analytical Grammar. I am concerned about my children being able to formulate correct sentences from the start, knowing the difference between written and oral structures, to be knowledgeable about punctuation, usage and mechanics as much as they need at their age/grade level.

I emailed Robin and Erin of AG and they assured me that JAG and AG with High School reinforcement would be more than enough grammar for a K-12 student and upon completion of these programs will have stellar grammar skills which will allow the student to be more than ready for college level work.

I wasn't going to use anything else but if I'm going to expect my child to write, they need to know how and a little bit of the why.

That's just my thoughts,
:) Jessica

[Heather in VA]

I'm not sure if your question is do they need JAG or do they need anything before JAG/AG. The answer to both is no. The authors will tell you they created JAG because of the requests from homeschooling parents for something before 6th grade - not because they felt it was required. There is definately no need for something before JAG or even before AG.

That said, you should be teaching composition in such a way that the student can compose proper sentences, know standard punctuation etc. This is rarely done most effectively with a grammar program. Most choose to do this through copywork, dictation, or other composition program. So assuming you are taking care of those things, you're fine to wait until JAG or even until AG.

Heather

[Trivium Academy]

That's true Heather so I guess it's more about being worried about gaps. I've taught using copywork but we haven't started a composition program yet, still in 2nd here. I will have to consider at the time whether JAG will be right for us when we reach that point. Thank you for posting, it gave me pause.

[8FillTheHeart]

I guess it boils down to what the purpose is for teaching grammar. I don't teach my younger kids grammar so that they can diagram or parse. I teach them grammar in context of writing in order to improve writing skills.

I wouldn't want to wait until 6th grade to have discussions about active verbs vs passive verbs, adding adj/advs, etc. Perhaps I approach writing in an unusual way, but I have no idea how you really teach one without teaching the other. :) My young kids have no problems learning grammar quickly. I'm not sure why I wouldn't.

[Darcy from LWM3B]

I guess it boils down to what the purpose is for teaching grammar. I don't teach my younger kids grammar so that they can diagram or parse. I teach them grammar in context of writing in order to improve writing skills.

I wouldn't want to wait until 6th grade to have discussions about active verbs vs passive verbs, adding adj/advs, etc. Perhaps I approach writing in an unusual way, but I have no idea how you really teach one without teaching the other. :) My young kids have no problems learning grammar quickly. I'm not sure why I wouldn't.
Karen,

What do you use in in lower grammar for grammar?

TIA!

[Deece in MN]

I guess it boils down to what the purpose is for teaching grammar. I don't teach my younger kids grammar so that they can diagram or parse. I teach them grammar in context of writing in order to improve writing skills.

I wouldn't want to wait until 6th grade to have discussions about active verbs vs passive verbs, adding adj/advs, etc. Perhaps I approach writing in an unusual way, but I have no idea how you really teach one without teaching the other. :) My young kids have no problems learning grammar quickly. I'm not sure why I wouldn't.

I agree with what you are saying. I think it depends on what is meant by "formal grammar". What you are talking about can be discussed with grade school children without using a formal curriculum. I also don't think the concepts need to be discussed with formal terms.

Children will naturally know when something doesn't sound right. You can discuss with them why one word or form of a word works and one does not without getting technical or having the child complete pages of worksheets.

In grade school, I think these concepts should be taught within context.
What I was trying to say with my comments is that if one feels the need for formal grammar with a curriculum, it is best saved for upper middle school/high school. It will be easier for the older student because they have naturally been doing lots of grammar all along.

Again, JMHO.

[Chris in CA]

ITA, Hi Heather! Have you moved?

[Heather in VA]

No - we couldn't sell our house so we pulled it off the market and had to let the house we were building in North Carolina go.

So we're here in VA until the housing market improves.

Thanks for asking!! How are you guys?

Heather

[jeri]

you are also getting a good dose of grammar already! My 5th grader has done LfC A and LfC B, and is now halfway through LBO. We just added Latin Prep. She amazes me with her knowledge of grammar! I actually have the entire series of R&S English up to 6th, and we only occasionally check something out. So, I have since reconsidered my original ideas on grammar and am now going to just have her do AG.

jeri

[frogpond1]

prepositions and definitions and verbs etc. I don't think my grammar children need to fully understand them, but they have the time and ability to memorize then, and it makes 6th grade a whole lot easier. That in turn makes Latin a lot easier.

[8FillTheHeart]

Hi Darcy,

I don't use anything with my kids now except for me directly teaching them from copywork and their writing. With my older kids (when I wasn't confident in my own grammar abilities ;) ) I used Voyages in English. Voyages gave me a solid grammar understanding, but learning grammar in exercises like that really didn't teach my kids equally well. My kids that have been taught grammar in the context of writing have a much better understanding of grammar and are better writers.

Looking at my kids and performance educationally.....when I know the material and I teach it vs using a textbook to teach, there is no comparison in the outcomes. I am becoming more and more convinced that the teacher is vastly more important than the materials.

[Kathy in MD]

Instead of telling your dc what is wrong with a sentence's structure, tell them to diagram it. It saves a lot of discusion about whether a sentence is a run on or fragment or......

[8FillTheHeart]

Instead of telling your dc what is wrong with a sentence's structure, tell them to diagram it. It saves a lot of discusion about whether a sentence is a run on or fragment or......

My older kids do diagram. I don't think it is necessary with younger kids. Most of their writing isn't that complicated anyway. ;)

[Kathy in MD]

[

[Ginger]

Well I would like to only do grammar once...but here are some thoughts I have been pondering.

I can easily tell you what a noun, verb, adj., adv, prep. etc.is. I've worked with those since 1st grade. But throw at me direct objects, participles and others that I don't even know enough about deeper grammar to name...I'll look at you with a blank face. I'm sure at one point I learned them...I do vaguely remember learning them...I think in 6th grade or so. But they're one of those things I just learned cause I had to then forgot about them. But the basics of grammar--the things I learned over and over again since first grade....I've got those down pat.

So I'm afraid if I wait until middle school to do grammar, while my children may pick it up easier, I worry that it won't have the sticking power that it would if we do it all along. That being said--my 4th grade dd, with whom I have done grammar with since kindergarten STILL cannot pick the noun/subject verb/predicate, adj, adv etc out of a sentence without me reviewing it with her before a lesson. Which is why I am ready to shelve a grammar program and solely do latin next year. I don't know if that will help--but the above are just my thoughts while deciding if I should stop English Grammar.

[one l michele]

nt

[Trivium Academy]

Yes, this thread got the wheels turning and justified what I had already decided upon. It's good to question yourself from time to time but in the end we each have to do what we feel is best. Thank you Michele for starting this thread and everyone who contributed to it! I learn so much from you.

[jg_puppy]

Hi Darcy,
Looking at my kids and performance educationally.....when I know the material and I teach it vs using a textbook to teach, there is no comparison in the outcomes. I am becoming more and more convinced that the teacher is vastly more important than the materials.

I am finding this to be the case as well. The more that I know about a subject the less I rely on a program and work at a comfortable pace for my kids. The outcome is that that kids seem to learn more. The problem is that I don't know enough about grammar to know what I should be pointing out in copywork and writing. I really should fine a program that would work for me so that I learn the material and would feel more comfortable with the concepts of grammar and writing.
Jan