Whole to Parts?

[In The Great White North]

I'm trying to plan next year, so I was reading through TWTM again when I came upon a warning AGAINST "whole to parts" Latin instruction. What SWB said about not making the child guess that the genitive plurals end in -arum made a lot of sense to me.

But,

Lately, there have been a lot of positive comments about Lingua Latina, Cambridge and other "whole to parts" Latin programs on the boards.

What gives? Is it just a matter of learning styles? Age of student? Talent for languages? The amount of time one has to read LL chapters over and over?

We had been doing Henle (parts to whole). which ds(16) hated. For the last few weeks, we've done LL (whole to parts), which he says he likes better. I have the feeling he likes it better because, so far, it's review. He doesn't seem to be learning anything and has even forgotten (or just decided not to use) the case endings he had already learned in Henle.

Frankly, I don't think I could learn a thing from LL without looking up the "parts" on my own. To me it seems like Suzuki, which I could never do either. This is the same ds that spent 3rd through 6th grades in Suzuki Book 1. Is that a hint that we should stick to parts to whole? Or am I the only one who thinks there's a connection?

[Patty Joanna]

I struggled with this, as well. I was a strict "parts-to-whole" person until I realized that to my son this looked completely RANDOM because he is one who needs to know where he is going with something to make the steps in the middle. Without the map that includes the destination, he is very hard to motivate. However, I found that I can do enough "whole-to-parts" pretty quickly and then dig in on the "parts-to-whole" again, sort of alternating back and forth.

I think with Latin, it is especially helpful to get a lot of vocabulary done quickly so that is not a hangup. Sort of like knowing the multiplication tables cold before you start algebra.

I hope this helps.

[LizzyBee]

It is sometimes a learning style issue. I have one child in particular who has to see the big picture before the details make sense to her. OTOH, I'm a person who has to have a certain number of details before I can begin to see the big picture. And I often completely miss the big picture because I'm too busy looking at the details. :confused:

[Sue in St Pete]

First, I think parts-to-whole is easier for a Latin ignorant parent to teach. I think the strength is in the grammar.

I think whole-to-parts is difficult for a Latin ignorant parent to teach. I think the strength is in the reading/translating.

FWIW, I used Matin Latin (parts-to-whole) with ds in 4th-5th. Ds, in 6th, is now using Oxford Latin (whole-to-parts) with a very capable Latin tutor. I'm glad that he got the grounding in the parts-to-whole, because the grammar coverage in Oxford Latin is illogical to me.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

I'm quite whole-to-parts myself. I got a food processor for my birthday and it has been sitting there for a month. Directions stymie me. Finally today, I plugged it in and chopped a carrot. I had a bunch of minced stuff and one big chunk when I was done, so I'm obviously missing some crucial information, but now that I have the general idea of how it's supposed to work, I can tackle the instructions manual and fill in the blanks. It was that way for my daughters and Latin. After many false starts with parts to whole programs, it was Cambridge for my older and Oxford for my younger that helped them to take off. Intuitively is how they learn best. They were the ones who learned to read by reading and picking up phonics on the fly. New vocabulary was best absorbed by reading. My third daughter has always asked what unfamiliar words meant as she was reading. I used to think she was doing it for attention because none of my children so far had done that. Turns out, she's a parts to whole learner. She will probably do better with Henle or something similar.

Barb

[LisaNY]

I don't think whole-to-parts methods are a matter of making the child guess his way through the grammar. Whole-to-parts methods use a *contextual* approach to teach the grammar. The student is exposed to the grammar within the context of a running storyline, and not in isolated, often unrelated sentences as seen in parts-to-whole texts. After being exposed to the grammar in context, the student then gets an explanation of the grammar.

What many parts-to-whole proponents object to is the fact that the student is not taught full paradigms and forms right away. Whole-to-parts methods only cover the grammar currently being used in the story. Parts-to-whole methods give the full paradigms up front, regardless of whether or not all forms are being used.

Being a whole-to-parts learner myself, I had a very difficult time with the standard grammar/translation texts. I need context in order to understand the grammar. I am able to absorb much more if I can see the grammar being used in a meaningful way via a running storyline.

I think a combination of both methods is very helpful, since you get the best of both worlds. If you do a search for Henle/Lingua Latina, you will see lots of discussions on this.

[Jackie in AR]

I think a combination of both methods is very helpful, since you get the best of both worlds.

This is the approach we're taking. My boys have been working in Henle, and they'll begin a Lingua Latina online class this fall. I don't know if they'll continue Henle after they begin Lingua Latina; we'll have to see how it all works out.

[Beth in SW WA]

This is the approach we're taking. My boys have been working in Henle, and they'll begin a Lingua Latina online class this fall. I don't know if they'll continue Henle after they begin Lingua Latina; we'll have to see how it all works out.

Jackie,
Who are your kiddos taking Lingua Latina w/ online? Thanks!

[Jackie in AR]

Jackie,
Who are your kiddos taking Lingua Latina w/ online? Thanks!

Lone Pine Classical School (www.lonepineclassical.org), which was recommended by Plaid Dad.

Potter's School also has online classes for Lingua Latina.

[Nan in Mass]

I think a lot of the "whole to parts" curriculums discussed here approach Latin BOTH whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole. LL doesn't not teach grammar. I think SWB was thinking of some early experiments with Latin teaching in which the grammar wasn't taught at all; the student was just supposed to figure it out for himself. My Greek prof in college talked about this. He said that classics profs had figured out that this didn't work very well, that a certain amount of translating from Latin to English and explanation about grammar had to happen for the student to really learn it, that you couldn't just have the student read Latin and naturally form their own person grammar much like toddlers do. Immersion style language learning works, but you have to be immersed for it to work; one class a day in a school setting isn't enough time and exposure. So, now the "whole to parts" curriculums mostly seem to be curriculums that approach Latin from both directions. They just usually do it from whole to parts first in the reading, then parts to whole later in the grammar explanation part and excersizes to practise the grammar. My children need to see the grammar being used in context to understand it, so we use a reading-based program. Lisa did a good job of explaining how they work. Linga Latina still has excersizes that have you practise adding the right endings on words, and has explanations of the grammar. So does Cambridge. So does Ecce Romani.
HTH
-Nan

[In The Great White North]

It never occurred to me that "whole to parts" and "parts to whole" would be learning styles when I was trying to figure out if he was a visual learner, audio learner, etc. Is there a website/questionnaire to help determine this because I'm getting conflicting signals from ds?

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, it is a learning style issue. And it took me forever to figure it out. I just knew that some things worked and some didn't, and it was the things that were very applied and taught things all at once that worked. Someone told me that I have it backwards and that it is the detail oriented people who need the curriculum that present things as a big picture because they can't put it together for themselves. I don't know. I'm not particularly worried about what sort of learners my children are. I just care about what sort of curriculum/way I need to teach them so they can learn and remember GRIN. Hopefully someone will know of a place for you to go for more info and you won't have to figure it out by trial and error the way I did.
-ever backwards Nan