I think I've finally figured out what I need in a history curricula!

[AmyCC]

We need something like Sonlight (great readers & read-aloud, daily schedule) with some kind of evaluative piece (tests, writing ideas, venn diagrams, etc.)

After posting a couple of weeks ago--thanks for all the input!--I narrowed down my history choices for my 7th grader to Sonlight and TOG.

I love the look of TOG, and I actually tried using it a couple of years ago. (Granted, it was the classic version.) But I know myself. The whole discussion piece of which TOG heavily relies will not happen in this house in any formal way. It's just not in my make up. (Sigh. I know that's lame.) I like discussion, but in an informal way. We read together and discuss as we have questions. TOG is overwhelming to me and the more I look into it again, the more I don't think it will be a good fit for us.

I'd really like to try Sonlight (just the history and Bible portion). The only thing it's missing is some sort of evaluation. Yes, I could make up my own, but I don't want to. I love that evaluation CD that you can order with TOG. It's not just a "write a paper about this" kind of evaluation, but much more creative and varied. I wish there was something like this for Sonlight.

So, here's what I've ruled out:

Sonlight (no evaluations of any kind)
TOG (relies too heavily on discussion, no daily schedule, too overwhelming for me, readers/read-aloud don't look nearly as good as Sonlight)
WinterPromise (I found the books dry in the upper levels, too project oriented)
Biblioplan (no evaluation piece)

Am I missing something? Is there some secret history curricula that you've all been hiding from me? Something I can use as is that's like Sonlight except...well...more?

[MIch elle]

You could use SL 6 & 7 with the SOTW tests. Also, SL 3/4 uses The Story of the USA which has questions at the end of each chapter and a final test at the end of each of the 4 worktexts.

[Heather in VA]

Have you thought about using History Odyssey and just adding more SL books? HO is much more "academic" than SL as far as outlining, writing assignments, literature analysis etc. but it doesn't include nearly as many books as SL so many people just add additional readings. I don't know what time periods you were thinking about. Level II is 5th - 8th grade with each guide becoming increasingly more work and analytical - so that by Level II Modern you are heading into high school.

Heather

[AmyCC]

I'm planning for fall. I'll have one 7th grade dd at home. I'm looking at using SL 7 (we've already covered the topics in SL 6.)

Yes, I've thought about using the SOTW tests, but I guess I'd like something with more variety.

[AmyCC]

I don't think HO is quite what I'm looking for. A little too "academic" for us. (Thanks for your input though!)

[Linda in NM]

Heh, heh, heh...have you looked at Trisms?

[elbac]

Linda beat me to it, but I was going to suggest TRISMS as well. It has a daily schedule. A lot of book options that you can easily customize. If you use IEW with it, that would cover the writing you mentioned. There are also quizzes and tests included. It's pretty much open book, and go!

[Melissa in CA]

Well, how about something more traditional? Like perhaps a Bob Jones or Abeka textbook? Both come with quizzes and tests, and both cane be done independently I think. All you would have to do is go through your SL catty and pick out some readers and read alouds. You could read the read-alouds at your own pace, and have your dd read the readers. They don't have to line up perfectly with what you are studying in history. Meaning that even with SL your readers are not coinciding week by week with what you are studying in history. Oftentimes you will be finished with a period of history, but still be reading a reader about that history weeks later, or sometimes weeks before. SL's schedule is not perfect in lining up the readers and history.

Between BJU and Abeka I personally like BJU. I have used both. BJU is more interesting. Abeka's history, for us, was boooooooring. You could also get the BJU History DVD option so your dd would have a teacher enriching her history studies, assigning work, quizzes, tests, etc. Leaving you, mom, with grading only. The BJU Grade 7 history is a world history which begins in the medieval towns of the 1100's progressing through the 20th century. I believe you can view a brief video of the dvd class online, as well as read through the first chapter in the student text.

Just a thought.

[AmyCC]

Nope, never have. I'll look into it. Thanks!

[AmyCC]

Actually that's not a bad idea. I've never even thought about using a traditional textbook. Yikes. Can I do that and still remain on this board? :0)

[Karenciavo]

Actually that's not a bad idea. I've never even thought about using a traditional textbook. Yikes. Can I do that and still remain on this board? :0)

Yes, but you'll have to turn in your keys to the executive wash room. ;)

[AmyCC]

LOL!

[Melissa in CA]

Actually that's not a bad idea. I've never even thought about using a traditional textbook. Yikes. Can I do that and still remain on this board? :0)

LOL! Sure ya can! In fact, many do and are quite happy with their choice. Traditional is usually easier on the parent, meaning less parent involvment needed. Some children thrive on traditional history texts, others find they prefer a different method. It's all in finding what works best for YOUR dd, and for YOUR situation and teaching style. Don't discount the validity of traditional history texts, MANY homeschoolers use them. Many.

TRISMS may be a good choice as well. Though it never appealed to me personally. In fact, to me, it looks more involved and more complicated than TOG. :confused: Perhaps it's the website and my lack of interest in figuring it out. ;)

[klg]

has anyone recommended Mystery of History to you? It's one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I'm not kidding. And my kids beg for more.

[Donna A.]

Have you considered My Father's World? I didn't see it mentioned on your list.

www.mfwbooks.com (http://www.mfwbooks.com)

Here's a current thread in which I just elaborated on some details of MFW:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20974

[AmyCC]

That's actually what we've been using for the last couple of years. We're using it along with readers and read-alouds from a list I created. It's just been okay. My girls (6th & 8th) don't feel like they're learning a whole lot. Maybe it's because we don't do many of the activities. We're just not an activity family.

I don't think it's been bad though. I like the tests, quizzes, and other evaluations used in the book.

[OnTheBrink]

has anyone recommended Mystery of History to you? It's one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I'm not kidding. And my kids beg for more.

*nodding in agreement*

MOH has been great for us.

[vmsurbat]

Well, how about something more traditional? Like perhaps a Bob Jones or Abeka textbook? Both come with quizzes and tests, and both cane be done independently I think. All you would have to do is go through your SL catty and pick out some readers and read alouds. You could read the read-alouds at your own pace, and have your dd read the readers. They don't have to line up perfectly with what you are studying in history. Meaning that even with SL your readers are not coinciding week by week with what you are studying in history. Oftentimes you will be finished with a period of history, but still be reading a reader about that history weeks later, or sometimes weeks before. SL's schedule is not perfect in lining up the readers and history.


I used MOH 2 last year, ending up our history studies at the beginning of Ren/Ref. I liked MOH 2 because it was a nice spine, varied worksheets, and left time for me to add in readers (I used Sonlight 6). This year I am using BJU World Studies course (which briefly reviews the Middle Ages, Ren/Ref--a good supplement to what we did last year) with Sonlight Readers for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.

I found myself *wanting* to use TOG with a BJU textbook spine (no way do I want to have to fuss with multiple "main texts" every few weeks--we live overseas and must purchase everything). With BJU, though, I discovered that it gives me what I wanted with TOG but in an easy-to-manage system. With BJU, the activity sheets and tests match *perfectly* with the text so no frustration in finding/not finding answers. Each chapter has 4-8 activities in the activities guide, including at least one "mapping" activity (geography! easy!). The TM always has little "extras" in the sidebar and along the bottom--some of it historical, some biblical insight, some tangential--and right on the page with which it corresponds (easier than world book entries!) My 7th grader really enjoys the little blurbs in the TM so she has taken to using it as her basic text. Thought questions/discussions are included if I want to use them and they aren't designed to take an hour! Little writing assignments are scattered here and there--again, to pick and choose from (I choose little of these; not because they are not good, but there is only so much time, and history is only *one* subject). Also, suggested (optional) projects are included (eg. Conduct an interview. Make a chart of xxx.)--some of these types of projects are included in the activities manual, some aren't. At the end of every chapter, the TM includes a "try this recipe" tie-in--my 7th grader has enjoyed this very much.

Each section has little section review questions, each chapter ends with an extensive review. Plenty of chances to check comprehension. (Note: on the HomeSat group, someone has typed all these questions into a file so *if you wanted* you could print out each chapter's SRQ and Chapter Review to require writing. I don't for my 7th grader, but for my 10th grader, I do--he needs the practice in writing complete sentences--he is language-challenged....) Additionally, the front of each unit in the textbook itself has a timeline of "Important Events and People" and the back of the TMs has 15-20 "other" timeline events (some serious: Black Plague dates, others fanciful: First use of fork in Europe). The kids maintain their timelines very easily.

I use/add in Sonlight 7 Readers and my own choice of biographies to take the place of the corresponding "History in Depth/Literature" portion of TOG which I liked. This has worked very well for us because I found that we had already read much of TOG's scheduled literature (which *can't* be substituted if you want to use TOG's literature worksheets/discussions). Plus, I can sub/add in my own "In Depth" history if I want (and I do as I like my children to read an even mix of biographies and historical fiction).

Thus, most days my children 1. read from the text, 2. read from a Sonlight Reader, 3. read a "In depth history" book (usually a biography or Landmark-type book). Sometime during the chapter they complete one mapping activity and one or two other activities. At the end of every chapter they do the chapter review, take a test (includes a small essay question or two), and update their timelines. (Not all on one day!) Because their reading is manageable, I am able to ask them at lunch "What did you study in history?" and they can give me all the high points from the books I assigned.

I've been pleased with the way this approach has been working and plan to continue with it through high school. Does this include *all* that TOG offers? No, and I don't want to suggest that it does. But, I found that once I deleted from TOG what *wasn't* important to me (crafts, extensive geography, multi-level learning, in-depth church history, intertwined world/us history, philosophy, literature strictly tied to history studies), other programs could meet my needs just as well (and even better).

I highly suggest poking around BJU's website and looking at all the samples. Also, Christian Books has a sample from the test booklet (I don't think the BJU website does). Again, it is a history *textbook*, but honestly, I've looked at Amazon reviews and samples of many of the TOG-assigned *history* books and many don't grab my interest at all (and are expensive to boot).

Some food for thought,

[AmyCC]

Wow! What an informative post! Thank you so much, Vicki. I've been mulling over BJU for science, but I hadn't considered them for history until this thread. What you're doing sounds like a perfect fit for us.

I'm curious, have you used HomeSat or dvds for BJU History? I wonder what benefit that would add?

Again, thanks so much for your post. I'm going to go explore the BJU website further.

[LadyAberlin]

I just wanted to add that I was homeschooled and we used BJU history and I absolutely loved their history textbooks.

[Chloe]

All American History by Bright Ideas Press looks wonderful.

http://www.brightideaspress.com/aah_info.htm

It looks like it has what you are looking for and includes a book list for added literature.

[AmyCC]

Thanks! That's good to know.

[AmyCC]

We're not to American history yet, but thanks! I'll keep this resource in mind for the future.

[Shelly in IL]

Is there a way to combine this study with a younger child?
Where would a child come in who just finished Renaissance and Reformation (with TOG, we would come in Year 2, section 3).
What religious background is BJU?

It sounds so good. And I am so scared/excited to do TOG, but I appreciate that history is only 1 subject and need'nt monopolize school. Thanks for the additional information.

[vmsurbat]

I'm curious, have you used HomeSat or dvds for BJU History? I wonder what benefit that would add?

Again, thanks so much for your post. I'm going to go explore the BJU website further.

Here are my thoughts. This past year we purchased (oops, I mean leased) for the first time an entire year (secondary level only) on DVDs. (As missionaries we get a pretty good deal). I went for a whole year because I wanted to try a sampling of the various types of classes. Going into it, based on the sample DVD clips, I thought I would really like the science and the history, be so-so on the English and the math. (We haven't even looked at the Bible or Spanish electives that we were able to get so I cannot comment on them--they came included at no additional cost).

My impressions (for the secondary level only--I've not looked at the elementary levels at all):

Science: very, very good. The experiments shown on DVD, the enthusiasm of the teachers, the required workload, the depth, all of it has been to my satisfaction. The Science class is a Linc-class (starting in 9th grade) so it is 45 minutes long and with that much time devoted to a DVD on a daily basis, the content and delivery has to be worth it. I think it is.

History: These classes are 30 minutes long and while they do bring in some enrichment and emphasize the important points, I found we do better with just the text. The history classes with good (ie. engaging) teachers tend to have a *lot* of assignments/projects and heavy workloads which leads to less time for reading. I found that I dropped the History DVD class because I would rather have my child read the text (which he had to do anyway) and use that 30 minutes to assign in-depth reading/biographies. With the particular class we had, the teacher assigned *all* the activity pages in the book, *all* the questions in the book, *all* the questions on the tests (even those labeled "optional"), plus two semester projects. The semester projects were worth doing (but I found them suggested in the TMs--so not something "Homesat" specific.) In the future, I am not planning to order any HomeSat History DVDs as I feel comfortable using the text in the manner I described earlier. (I am on the HomeSat list and plenty of people *really* like BJUs HomeSat history classes. My take is that they are the ones who either knew very little history before (so it is all new and exciting) and/or burnt out on doing a "living books" approach (and appreciate the sure and *measurable* coverage.)

English: At the secondary level, this is really two courses in one: Grammar/Writing and Literature. The DVD portion covers each course in one semester (one sem. for grammar, one sem. for literature). I did not use the Grammar/Writing portion at all so I cannot comment on that. I am using the Literature program and was very pleasantly surprised at the good job the teacher does of mixing in enrichment, thinking about the story, digging deeper (none of which I am good at). The lit. teacher also assigns writing projects/papers at a level I think appropriate (and includes a rubric for grading each one!!! I've really appreciated this feature). We have been a living books/whole book homeschooling family from the beginning, but I've found that for *teaching* purposes, anthologies and short stories work quite well. And with the one semester format of the literature class, we can plug along and then take a break with some whole book reading. Almost all reviews of BJU high school literature texts give a big thumbs up *if* you use the TMs to guide and lead discussions. Well, that is what the DVD teacher does and means that I don't have to. This has been my daughter's favorite subject this year. I plan to use the HomeSat DVD Literature classes all through highschool.

Math: We are using Geometry this year. It has been a reasonable fit for my son who needed to take a structured (ie. day-by-day assigned lessons) course. My big grip with HomeSat Math is that the classes are recordings of a teacher teaching in a studio but to live students scattered around the country. These students can "buzz" in and ask questions. This feature slows down the math class quite a bit. Also, the DVD teacher assigns the problems and as far as I can tell, follows the "standard" track. (BJU math texts offer 3 tracks: struggling, standard, challenging). I think my son could handle the more challenging track, but that is not an option with the DVD program. I prefer math DVDs to be only teaching oriented (aka Chalkdust, Math Relief, and others).

Well, this is probably more than you wanted to know, but I just finished slogging through my "what will we be using next year" wishes and gave some serious thought to these DVD classes. The verdict? This coming fall we will use only Science and Lit on HomeSat DVD, plus the BJU history texts (and activity books) on their own. Other publishers/sources for other subjects.

More food for thought,

[AmyCC]

I looked at the video samples for 7th grade science and 7th grade history on the BJU website.

The science dvds appeal to me the most. (I just wish that one subject didn't cost $399! That just seems outrageous for leasing the dvds.) The teacher has such enthusiasm, and I love the fact that they do some of the experiments and the student can watch.

Thanks for your input on the history dvds. It's good to know that it might be too much if we're also doing read-alouds and readers.

I've already got grammar covered, but that literature sure sounds good! Maybe I'll keep that in mind for 8th grade. I don't think I'll be able to afford more than one subject this year.

So, do you mind one more question? (I promise I'll stop after this! :001_smile:) Does your critique apply to the satellite option as well as the dvd option? Do the same teachers teach both? I'm wondering if the satellite option would be more feasible for us, but I'm not sure what the cons would be.

Thank you sooooo much, Vicki! You're helping me get clarity on BJU and which option might be a good fit for us.

[Carmen_and_Company]

What about Ambleside online? I know it'll cover more than history, but hopefully by fall the board will have exams completed through 8th grade. I see nothing wrong with using a textbook as a spine. We did during logic stage. It gave us a broad outline to find topics for indepth research. I find using a textbook no different than using STOW. We used A Message of Ancient Days in 6th grade & Across Centuries in 7th grade.
http://www.eduplace.com/ss/hmss/index.html

If you go to the teacher's section, they include tons of projects, including writing prompts, and literature organized by unit.

[Melissa in CA]

So, do you mind one more question? (I promise I'll stop after this! :001_smile:) Does your critique apply to the satellite option as well as the dvd option? Do the same teachers teach both? I'm wondering if the satellite option would be more feasible for us, but I'm not sure what the cons would be.



Not Vickie, but since I use the Satellite option I can address your question.

Most of the DVDs are the exact classes that are shown on the satellite. The only exception is when BJU updates a text. When they update a text, they also update the class and quite often, the teacher. The Satellite customers get to enjoy the new class before the DVD leasers. The DVD's are usually not updated to the new class until the following year. The other exception is the high school math and science classes (and foreign lang too I believe). These are taped live so the teacher's sometimes change each year. It is usually consistent, but if a teacher leaves or retires then there is a bit of a shuffle.

The Satellite is a great option for the large family as you get each and every class and each and every grade coming into your home via satellite for a flat price of $49.99 a month. You could not send one child to private school for that, let alone an entire family. You also would want to register for each class you are going to use for the year, registrations range from $10 a class to $40 for the high school LINC classes. With these registrations you will get a class schedule as well as many many other goodies, depending on the class and the teacher. My son's $40 Physics registration included over 900 pages of stuff, including all the tests and quizzes...definitely worth the money.

The Satellite option is not without it's troubles though. You must actually capture the classes on a recording device such as a VCR or a DVD recorder. BJU will transmit the classes to your home, but it is up to you on how you will record them and use them. I have a DVD recorder with a harddrive. The harddrive holds my classes for me and when I find the time I go in and transfer the classes to a DVD. It's quite simple, but there IS a learning curve and some find it tedious. I personally do not.

Also, with the Satellite option you have your own homemade DVD's that are yours to keep for future children, unlike the DVD option where you are only leasing them for the year.

That's all I can think to tell you at the moment, but feel free to ask questions should any arise. For more thorough answers you can join the HomeSat yahoo group...they are a fount of information! Oh, one thing I do know is that there is a sale right now on the satellite, through HomeWorks by precepts consultants (you can google them). You can get the entire satellite system for $50, plus 30% off all books and class registrations, along with free shipping.
There are several consultants that frequent the Homesat yahoo group as well.

HTH's!

[AmyCC]

Do you have to capture the classes on dvd or vcr? Can you just watch them when they air? Maybe I'm missing something here. (Or maybe you just put them on dvd/vcr so you can watch them are your convenience?

Thanks for all the info and for the heads-up on the sale. That's quite a savings!

[Maverick]

Have you looked at Veritas Press? I think it has everything you want. (I'm talking about the 2nd-6th grade series, not Omnibus)

[Melissa in CA]

:tongue_smilie:Do you have to capture the classes on dvd or vcr? Can you just watch them when they air? Maybe I'm missing something here. (Or maybe you just put them on dvd/vcr so you can watch them are your convenience?

Thanks for all the info and for the heads-up on the sale. That's quite a savings!

You can watch the high school LINC classes as they air. They are live daily classes. But the other classes are previosuly taped and sent to you in a 'blockfeed.' For example each week, on say Monday at 2:00 pm, BJU will air an entire weeks worth (5 days) of Science 5 classes for you to record. You, of course, would not want to watch an entire weeks worth of science in a day, :tongue_smilie: LOL, so you therefore must capture them on a DVD or VHS tape and watch them daily. Kind of like recording your favorite TV program each week. I hope that makes sense...I've got quite a headache tonight and am finding thinking difficult. :blink:

[vmsurbat]

[QUOTE=AmyCC;173674]I looked at the video samples for 7th grade science and 7th grade history on the BJU website.

The science dvds appeal to me the most. (I just wish that one subject didn't cost $399! That just seems outrageous for leasing the dvds.) The teacher has such enthusiasm, and I love the fact that they do some of the experiments and the student can watch.

So, do you mind one more question? (I promise I'll stop after this! :001_smile:) Does your critique apply to the satellite option as well as the dvd option? Do the same teachers teach both? I'm wondering if the satellite option would be more feasible for us, but I'm not sure what the cons would be.

Amy,

We can't use HomeSat at all (live overseas) so I know very little about the logistics of actually using it. Melissa gave some great info. I do know that HomeSat self-recording is the most cost-effective way of using the taped classes *IF* you are going to be using *several* classes. The second most cost-effective way is to subscribe to HomeSat (paying the monthly fee), your register for the classes you want (as Melissa said, this gives you special handouts tailored for the HomeSat course), purchasing the suggested books for a satellite user and then purchasing "replacement" DVDs from a provider DLA/DLN (I never remember the exact acronym).

In this scenario, you don't have to ever record anything, you can order a whole year's worth of DVDs at a replacement cost, keep them *as long as you are still subscribed to HomeSat*. This option makes sense if you can't record and you want to use the class for upcoming students.

The easiest way is just to order the DVD subject kit. It is the most hassle-free and includes all materials (registration handouts, texts, tests, tms). I, too, am disappointed with the cost for a single class and the fact there is no discount for ordering multiple classes (only if you order an entire grade). But, it is no more expensive than most other private outsourcing (eg. academic co-op, online tutoring). I've resigned myself to the fact that home schooling high school is not cheap.

If you are still in "searching" mode, I suggest subscribing to the HomeSat loop and spending some time looking through the files. There is a large file called One-Stop guide which explains *many* aspects of using HomeSat as well as the classes themselves. There is also a file that explains the DLA/DLN option that I briefly outlined above. When I was first researching the option of using BJU DVDs, I spent a good bit of time there myself.

HTH,

[gardenschooler]

I used MOH 2 last year, ending up our history studies at the beginning of Ren/Ref. I liked MOH 2 because it was a nice spine, varied worksheets, and left time for me to add in readers (I used Sonlight 6). This year I am using BJU World Studies course (which briefly reviews the Middle Ages, Ren/Ref--a good supplement to what we did last year) with Sonlight Readers for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.

I found myself *wanting* to use TOG with a BJU textbook spine (no way do I want to have to fuss with multiple "main texts" every few weeks--we live overseas and must purchase everything). With BJU, though, I discovered that it gives me what I wanted with TOG but in an easy-to-manage system. With BJU, the activity sheets and tests match *perfectly* with the text so no frustration in finding/not finding answers. Each chapter has 4-8 activities in the activities guide, including at least one "mapping" activity (geography! easy!). The TM always has little "extras" in the sidebar and along the bottom--some of it historical, some biblical insight, some tangential--and right on the page with which it corresponds (easier than world book entries!) My 7th grader really enjoys the little blurbs in the TM so she has taken to using it as her basic text. Thought questions/discussions are included if I want to use them and they aren't designed to take an hour! Little writing assignments are scattered here and there--again, to pick and choose from (I choose little of these; not because they are not good, but there is only so much time, and history is only *one* subject). Also, suggested (optional) projects are included (eg. Conduct an interview. Make a chart of xxx.)--some of these types of projects are included in the activities manual, some aren't. At the end of every chapter, the TM includes a "try this recipe" tie-in--my 7th grader has enjoyed this very much.

Each section has little section review questions, each chapter ends with an extensive review. Plenty of chances to check comprehension. (Note: on the HomeSat group, someone has typed all these questions into a file so *if you wanted* you could print out each chapter's SRQ and Chapter Review to require writing. I don't for my 7th grader, but for my 10th grader, I do--he needs the practice in writing complete sentences--he is language-challenged....) Additionally, the front of each unit in the textbook itself has a timeline of "Important Events and People" and the back of the TMs has 15-20 "other" timeline events (some serious: Black Plague dates, others fanciful: First use of fork in Europe). The kids maintain their timelines very easily.

I use/add in Sonlight 7 Readers and my own choice of biographies to take the place of the corresponding "History in Depth/Literature" portion of TOG which I liked. This has worked very well for us because I found that we had already read much of TOG's scheduled literature (which *can't* be substituted if you want to use TOG's literature worksheets/discussions). Plus, I can sub/add in my own "In Depth" history if I want (and I do as I like my children to read an even mix of biographies and historical fiction).

Thus, most days my children 1. read from the text, 2. read from a Sonlight Reader, 3. read a "In depth history" book (usually a biography or Landmark-type book). Sometime during the chapter they complete one mapping activity and one or two other activities. At the end of every chapter they do the chapter review, take a test (includes a small essay question or two), and update their timelines. (Not all on one day!) Because their reading is manageable, I am able to ask them at lunch "What did you study in history?" and they can give me all the high points from the books I assigned.

I've been pleased with the way this approach has been working and plan to continue with it through high school. Does this include *all* that TOG offers? No, and I don't want to suggest that it does. But, I found that once I deleted from TOG what *wasn't* important to me (crafts, extensive geography, multi-level learning, in-depth church history, intertwined world/us history, philosophy, literature strictly tied to history studies), other programs could meet my needs just as well (and even better).

I highly suggest poking around BJU's website and looking at all the samples. Also, Christian Books has a sample from the test booklet (I don't think the BJU website does). Again, it is a history *textbook*, but honestly, I've looked at Amazon reviews and samples of many of the TOG-assigned *history* books and many don't grab my interest at all (and are expensive to boot).

Some food for thought,

I agree with your assessment of the BJU, but more than that, I think you've helped *me* gel some ideas that have been floating around in my head concerning history and how I like (and need) to go about it.

We did exactly the plan you described. :001_smile: I had two working at pretty close levels (6th/7th and 8th/9th), so over the course of two years, we did a 2 year, condensed, world history course.

In 2006-07, my 6th grader did BJU Ancients (6th grade) and almost all of the recommended reading floating around for ancients, and started on the Medieval lists.We expanded, and did things exactly as you described. My 8th grader used BJU World History as her spine.

In 2007-08, my 7th grader did World Studies, and my 9th grader finished up the World History.

We could come together for discussions (like you, I tend to be kind of spontaneous about those), chose some books that we'd all read and discuss, projects, and the like. I assigned plenty of extra projects, reports, and writing assignments to tie in with our library books.

I love having all the tests (with great essay questions), the activity manuals, the excellent map studies, and just the whole shebang all in one package, to be able to add to as I wanted. It's actually not even recommended that you do *all* of the student activity pages, but we did, because I have to feel like I'm getting the most out of it. :)

We would use the section review questions as written daily work (questions restated and expanded upon - ends up being a neat little summary of what they've studied), and it's easy to add a little extra requirements as far as writing is concerned for those. We would use the chapter reviews as more writing *and* then afterwards, as our wrap-up discussion, making sure everything was reviewed well before the test. It gave me a base to spring from, and I felt very secure that we were accomplishing everything.

We couldn't go quite as in-depth and stay on one topic as much as a 4-year cycle would allow, but I was concerned with finishing one good bout of world history before the older one went off to ps for 10th.

I do think it would be very possible to use BJU texts as spines for a 4 year cycle, rearranged to correspond with each year. For high school, I guess you'd just overlap the US History with the World History for the last two years.

You've got wheels turning in my brain...is it possible to use my comfy favorite textbooks *and* do it in a 4-year cycle, thereby allowing me to have the depth in coverage I really want?

[vmsurbat]

You've got wheels turning in my brain...is it possible to use my comfy favorite textbooks *and* do it in a 4-year cycle, thereby allowing me to have the depth in coverage I really want?

Just to keep the discussion going.....

Two of my children have finished their homeschooling career and gone off to college. Three are still at home, jr. high and up. Even with all this "experience", every year is different, the mix of interests and abilities is different, so I spend time thinking each year through....

I think you *could* use BJU's two highschool texts and come up with a four-year cycle. I couldn't do it *unless* I had thoroughly gone through the texts and lined everything up in a way that made sense to me. I had (a few years ago) TOG 2 classic and it scheduled both world and US BJU history texts, but I found it *very cumbersome* to be switching between the textbooks on a daily basis each week. (ie. 10 pages from World, 15 pages from US in one week). If I wanted to take full advantage of the BJU activities and tests, I think I would tackle one chapter or even unit at a time. The TMs are actually very good about referring to past and future events across cultures to make a point, so I wouldn't worry about synchronizing every event/person to the last detail.

I haven't chosen to go that route, though, because the first two years (or so) would be strictly from the World History text, and the last two years would combine both, but be heavier on the US history text. The last century of US history includes quite a bit of World History topics; it is really only the from Columbus to the Civil War that US history focuses so centeredly on US soil and many "all inclusive" (American-based) programs still focus the majority of attention on US events as they are foundational events to the rest of US history.

Also, I do think it is worthwhile for our students to study economics and government and once I thought I had to add *that* in as well, it really crowds the last 2 years of the 4-yr history cycle (since both topics fit better with those history years (some World History, much US history, some economic study, some government--all being integrated at the same time. Yikes!). (That is why people gladly pay TOG to do it!)

In our homeschool, I've waited to go deeper into modern history until a certain maturity has been reached (this doesn't mean we've never touched the 20th century, just that we haven't really tackled a lot of the heavy issues). Thus, I decided that each of my seniors (when they get to be seniors) will study economics and government as their "history" course that year. It is the ideal time for including much modern (world) literature which I think requires a degree of maturity. For their sophomore/junior year, they will study US history (BJU-based) for two years. I want to include lots of American Literature (combo of BJU Am. Lit DVD and whole books). And again, because in the 20th century, the US has been a world power, we will naturally be covering many world events as well and we may dip into some world lit as well. For their freshman year, they will be finishing up world history. We've studied the ancients and the Middle Ages and they are well familiar with the big names/events/issues. We've read young adult versions of all the classics. I am willing to wait for college/life for my children to tackle "the originals."

This missive is not meant to discourage you, but to let you see how the wheels turned in my head!

Best wishes,

[AmyCC]

Thanks, Vicki. I'll check out the loop. I appreciate all your help! -Amy

[AmyCC]

Got it! Thanks. This thread has been so helpful! I think I'll check out the HomeSat loop too. -Amy

[Melissa in CA]

I want to include lots of American Literature (combo of BJU Am. Lit DVD and whole books).


I don't know if you've actually used the Am. Lit DVD's yet, but I wanted to say how fantastic I found them. Very interesting! We did the class as a year long course instead of a semester, stopping here and there to read actual whole books from some of the authors (The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick, Huck Finn, etc.) It was a great course!

I had planned to use the Brit Lit for my 17 yo this year, doing the same set up, but he wanted a lighter lit due to wanting to graduate early and therefore taking on a heavier course load (BJU's Physics & Precalculus, Biology, SL's Core 300...) so we used a Lightning Lit course. A good choice, but not nearly as interesting or informative as BJU's DVD Lit. :D

[gardenschooler]

I think you *could* use BJU's two highschool texts and come up with a four-year cycle. I couldn't do it *unless* I had thoroughly gone through the texts and lined everything up in a way that made sense to me. I had (a few years ago) TOG 2 classic and it scheduled both world and US BJU history texts, but I found it *very cumbersome* to be switching between the textbooks on a daily basis each week. (ie. 10 pages from World, 15 pages from US in one week). If I wanted to take full advantage of the BJU activities and tests, I think I would tackle one chapter or even unit at a time. The TMs are actually very good about referring to past and future events across cultures to make a point, so I wouldn't worry about synchronizing every event/person to the last detail.

It actually would be much harder to align BJU as a spine w/TOG than with the slightly different divisions of the eras outlined in WTM. Doing it the TOG way, Years 2 & 3 end up way too heavy. Using the WTM divisions, it works out a bit better. One could even divvy up the US Gov't into 3 years (doing just Unit 1 the first year, Year 2).

Of course the coverage of each time period, especially the ancients, is nothing compared to what TOG does. I was just saying one could use BJU as a spine for all of the main reading, questions, map work, and tests, and then branch off into real books, etc. It worked pretty well for us, but we didn't include US history in our quick, 2 year world history survey. Adding US history in would make it a lot heavier in Years 3 & 4.

But TOG is soooo beautiful. BJU would probably be easier to just pick up and do, but TOG includes so much more, and you're right about it all being lined up for you (the US & World history).

(That is why people gladly pay TOG to do it!)

And I am interested in at least touching on some of the Great Books in high school. But I waver back and forth between being afraid of TOG and wanting to run back to something familiar, to being struck with the realization that TOG is IT - it's what I've always wanted.

If implemented as it is really meant to be, TOG looks like it would be divine. Perfect. Trying to do WTM w/ a textbook spine would still mean I'd be piecing all the other parts together, especially the literature, philosophy, and even government. I just have to overcome some of my anxiety about TOG and the picking and choosing (NOT my strong suit, at all!)

I read the post linked by Janice in NJ about how she wished she hadn't spent so much time searching out the perfect curriculum, instead realized that it's self-education that's the real key. I've been pondering this for weeks now, and I know that some of my TOG fears are that I'm just not going to be willing or able to commit the time and energy. But I've pulled out my WEM and am really dwelling on this idea of self-education as the key vs. looking for something already put together for me. And I'm at least aware of the fact that as I frantically search out and compare TOG, WTM, SL, Omnibus - oh, there are more - of what I'm doing. It's those blasted trees that get in my way. :)

Thanks for keeping the conversation going on this. Every little bit I can talk this through helps me get a little closer to seeing the big picture.

[vmsurbat]

But TOG is soooo beautiful. BJU would probably be easier to just pick up and do, but TOG includes so much more, and you're right about it all being lined up for you (the US & World history).

And I am interested in at least touching on some of the Great Books in high school. But I waver back and forth between being afraid of TOG and wanting to run back to something familiar, to being struck with the realization that TOG is IT - it's what I've always wanted.

If implemented as it is really meant to be, TOG looks like it would be divine. Perfect. Trying to do WTM w/ a textbook spine would still mean I'd be piecing all the other parts together, especially the literature, philosophy, and even government. I just have to overcome some of my anxiety about TOG and the picking and choosing (NOT my strong suit, at all!)

I read the post linked by Janice in NJ about how she wished she hadn't spent so much time searching out the perfect curriculum, instead realized that it's self-education that's the real key. I've been pondering this for weeks now, and I know that some of my TOG fears are that I'm just not going to be willing or able to commit the time and energy. But I've pulled out my WEM and am really dwelling on this idea of self-education as the key vs. looking for something already put together for me. And I'm at least aware of the fact that as I frantically search out and compare TOG, WTM, SL, Omnibus - oh, there are more - of what I'm doing. It's those blasted trees that get in my way. :)

Thanks for keeping the conversation going on this. Every little bit I can talk this through helps me get a little closer to seeing the big picture.

This is fun! Iron does sharpen iron! I thoroughly agree with Janice in NJ that it is *much* easier to teach when you (the teacher) already know (to some degree) the material. It has been much more fun teaching my 3 youngers than my 2 olders--just because I've already been through things, settled my philosophy (somewhat), have a better, clearer vision of not only where I *want* to go, but what I can actually *manage.*

As I pare down the multitude of choices for curricula at the high school level that I am interested in, it helps to realize that they are all worthwhile--it is not a matter of making a "bad" choice vs. a "good" choice. Rather, I try to focus on the more doable vs. less doable, shoring up my weaknesses, maximizing my strengths (all the while keeping my children in mind!)

I sit down with pen and paper and make a list of the pros and cons for *me* of the programs that have caught my eye. One woman's pro (eg., Unit study) may be another woman's con. And what works well at the elementary level may change at the secondary level.

I start with what I am good at (talking about history/lit-type subjects now): adding in enrichment/living books, making schedules, helping the kids work through assignments/paragraphs/projects (not coming up with the ideas myself, though), talking some about what they've learned. I am not good at *leading* deep discussions nor juggling lots of books at once (ala Ambleside and, I think, TOG) or managing lots of loose paper. (We use very few ring-binders at our house--instead, one hardback notebook with no loose pages for all writing subjects except math and science. No separate ones for history/comp/spelling--we go for the simplicity approach). I personally don't click with unit studies at all (when too much is centered around one topic, it seems artificial to me, and I realize this is completely subjective and not a critique of anyone else's choices.). I've also found that I do better with "less" full programs than "too" full programs--not because we are slackers (I trust) but because it allows me to add in and enrich the children's studies without overwhelming them.

So when I sit down and *really* think about using wonderful programs like TOG and Ambleside and BJU and Hewitt (all excellent guides/curricula), I try to find the cracks/flaws that will hinder me and determine how well I will be able to overcome them. And I try to determine what *particularly* appeals to me (not merely a general sense of "This is great stuff.") in each program. When I do all this, it helps me tremendously to clarify just how helpful each program will ultimately be. And while I do try to stretch myself a little each year, adding in/working on areas to improve in (like more literary discussion--my preferred style is just to read and meditate on my own and therefore, that is what I tend to expect from my kids), I realize that a major change in style/approach is likely to lead to disaster--I am what I am. (A little analogy here: just because I can appreciate/admire certain curricula and approaches (LCC, Omnibus, Sonlight, Ambleside, etc.) , it doesn't mean that it is for me. Just like I can go into other people's home and really appreciate/admire their home decor but not want it for myself, no matter how beautiful/perfect it is in the abstract...)

I can't answer for you how well TOG will meet your needs; I will encourage you to continue with the "educating" self, though. I am going to be ordering Hewitt Homeschooling's new World Lit (Lightning Lit course) for *myself* as world literature is something I've never studied. I want to both expand my horizons and be prepared to expand my children's.... Also, it is on my wish list to order Teaching Company's Understanding Great Music so that I can grow in my appreciate and knowledge of classical music--I've been waiting to make a "music appreciation course" for my kids but then realized that I am the one that really wants to learn this stuff.... No need to make a course out of it...

More food for thought this weekend :001_smile:,

[AmyCC]

Thanks for processing "out loud". This is helping me evaluate how I come to conclusions about curriculum decisions myself. Bless you!

[gardenschooler]

I'm going to go out in the garden and ponder this while I work (that's when I do my best thinking - not when I'm sitting here, surrounded by it all).

What am I good at? What do I need in a program, and what can I provide myself? How much freedom do I want? How much guidance? What can I use to best self-educate? Just what is it about TOG that is so appealing to me?

(I know that one - it's the discussions), but is that the one and only way to achieve great discussions? What else could help me apply that? The whole Socratic questioning - which wasn't even in my vocabulary until this year - what else can I use to really learn how to do that well? Someone posted a link to a video about a teacher using this method to teach kids binary numbers (he only asked questions), and that was a very good illustration, but I need more. I need the dummies' guide.

I want everything to *breathe*. I want to stop and study the art, the philosophers, ALL of the literature, the poetry, and just the times - even the everyday people. (I think I need a 10-year cycle!) I don't want to have to start from scratch. I want something to give me a base to leap from, but it needs to cover A LOT. But it can't be confining.

I'll be mulling all of these thoughts from you over in my head. Hopefully, I'll come back in with some dirt under my nails and clear thinking in my head!

I'd love to light a fire in my dd13 like you've got going on, with your study of World Lit and music. You WANT to learn more! How can we transfer that over to our kids? Modeling it? Sharing it? Finding it? Letting them have a little extra time to stop and delve in, when we reach a topic or a person that really speaks to them?

I don't know exactly how to ignite that, but I'd really like to. I remember being so miffed in high school that I couldn't just stop and learn about the Renaissance artists for months on end, after we'd studied the Renaissance in World History class. I didn't want to move forward, I wanted to stop and drink it all up! I felt like we'd barely touched on it, and hey! this is something I actually want to know! But I did it anyway - just on my own time, in the library at lunch and after school. It's that feeling I want to ignite. There's got to be a way to do that, at least a little.


Rather, I try to focus on the more doable vs. less doable, shoring up my weaknesses, maximizing my strengths (all the while keeping my children in mind!)

I sit down with pen and paper and make a list of the pros and cons for *me* of the programs that have caught my eye.


I try to find the cracks/flaws that will hinder me and determine how well I will be able to overcome them.

And I try to determine what *particularly* appeals to me

When I do all this, it helps me tremendously to clarify just how helpful each program will ultimately be. And while I do try to stretch myself a little each year, adding in/working on areas to improve in, I realize that a major change in style/approach is likely to lead to disaster.

I will encourage you to continue with the "educating" self.

[gardenschooler]

Now I feel like a thread killer. Anyone else want to talk out loud? I'm still trying to figure out what I'm good at. :confused: It might take me a few days.

[Bambam]

The history period you are wanting probably won't be exactly the right 'grade' level, but you could check it out. There are no exams posted on their website, but various yahoogroup exist for various years. Some groups contain sample exams.

If you don't find the perfect fit, why not use Sonlight and make up your own exams? Surely there would be a market for such an item! I know several Sonlight mamas who want exams!

[vmsurbat]

I'm going to go out in the garden and ponder this while I work (that's when I do my best thinking - not when I'm sitting here, surrounded by it all).

What am I good at? What do I need in a program, and what can I provide myself? How much freedom do I want? How much guidance? What can I use to best self-educate? Just what is it about TOG that is so appealing to me?

(I know that one - it's the discussions), but is that the one and only way to achieve great discussions? What else could help me apply that? The whole Socratic questioning - which wasn't even in my vocabulary until this year - what else can I use to really learn how to do that well? Someone posted a link to a video about a teacher using this method to teach kids binary numbers (he only asked questions), and that was a very good illustration, but I need more. I need the dummies' guide.

I want everything to *breathe*. I want to stop and study the art, the philosophers, ALL of the literature, the poetry, and just the times - even the everyday people. (I think I need a 10-year cycle!) I don't want to have to start from scratch. I want something to give me a base to leap from, but it needs to cover A LOT. But it can't be confining.

I'll be mulling all of these thoughts from you over in my head. Hopefully, I'll come back in with some dirt under my nails and clear thinking in my head!

I'd love to light a fire in my dd13 like you've got going on, with your study of World Lit and music. You WANT to learn more! How can we transfer that over to our kids? Modeling it? Sharing it? Finding it? Letting them have a little extra time to stop and delve in, when we reach a topic or a person that really speaks to them?

I don't know exactly how to ignite that, but I'd really like to. I remember being so miffed in high school that I couldn't just stop and learn about the Renaissance artists for months on end, after we'd studied the Renaissance in World History class. I didn't want to move forward, I wanted to stop and drink it all up! I felt like we'd barely touched on it, and hey! this is something I actually want to know! But I did it anyway - just on my own time, in the library at lunch and after school. It's that feeling I want to ignite. There's got to be a way to do that, at least a little.

Gardenschooler,

How was your time in the garden? Sounds lovely. I wish we had a garden--we are surrounded by lots of brown dirt, rocks, and construction rubble--we moved into an unfinished house and the outside is *not* a priority... I don't have a green thumb at all, but right now I am *trying* to get a few herbs going with a bit of help from my husband. A friend gave me a small windowsill cactus--something green that needs very little care--one month and still alive! :-)

I don't have any great ideas on how to "light the fire" in our children. I think there is a big discrepancy in the kind of education we as adults want to see happen vs. what our children want. I well-remember a quote (but not the author's name) : "Education in wasted on the youth." A bit of truth there; as adults we have so much that we would like to learn but not the time we had in our youth. How many of us bemoan the missed prof's office hours and calls to drop by and discuss things? And I also ponder Hirsch's (the cultural literacy advocate, author of "What your Nth Grader should know") insight that children in a so-called typical school might not know much history or math, but they *are* knowledgeable about what interests them. It is not that there is *no* learning taking place, but rather a questioning of the value of what they are learning.

I do think our own passions rub off on our children (at least some) to some extent. And the reverse works as well--their interests enrich my life. (I'm particularly thinking of my son's interest in astronomy--something I would not pursue on my own). I have never been able to implement Ambleside Online (too many jumbling of books), but I very much appreciate the inclusion of a breadth of learning--the making of connections across a broad spectrum of learning and interests.

This year, for the first time, I've found a way to implement some of that in our little homeschool. On the children's weekly assignment sheets (done in a grid format), one row (representing one class/day) is designated as "Period Studies." This has nothing to do with historical eras, but is a marked-out block to incorporate those "learning" experiences that aren't ever going to be a "subject" in their own right.

For example, right now, one period/week is devoted to reading wildlife observations from enthusiastic naturalists (not scientists). I have a book which is a compilation of well-written narratives by noted naturalists (eg. Seton, Durrell) and is ideally suited to reading one chapter (a complete story) one day/week. This week, my son read about the antics of a wolverine. Since I know nothing about wolverines, I asked him about it, and got a very succinct reply, plus was shown a picture from the encyclopedia. I commented on how much it looked like a badger, and with a little more digging, we found out that they *are* related and belong to the weasel family. A pleasant little discovery. (This doesn't happen every week; but it only happened this week because I helped make the opportunity for it to happen...)

Another period each week is devoted to art media (drawing or something else).

A third period (actually two days in a row) is devoted to introducing new genres/books just for the purpose of making a wide acquaintance with the world--those books that aren't for lit class, history class, in-depth history. Perhaps a bio of a scientist (one of my children was inspired to become a neurosurgeon after reading Gifted Hands (Ben Carson); she has since chosen something more suited for her!), or a travel memoir (history/geography/biography all in one!), or a new genre like science fiction. The book is read over a period of weeks and then replaced with something new and fresh.

I want to have one period a week devoted to art/music appreciation but that hasn't happened yet. I have books lying around, but the children never seem to just pick them up to read and browse. I think they are good books, but perhaps one already needs to have an enthusiasm for the subject before finding the books engaging. That is one reason I'm looking forward to learning more myself--maybe then I can be a source of inspiring enthusiasm....

One thing I really like about our "Period Studies" is that when the children finish with one book, I can replace it with a similar or different kind of book--giving us lots of chances to broaden our horizons. For example, I have The Fallacy Detective on the shelf here, and it seems ideally suited to a once a week period class (so maybe when they finish with the naturalist book, I'll replace it with this). I've found that doing a little each week really does build up over the months and we are covering/exposing ourselves to things that don't quite fit our basic subjects without having to "crowd" their current studies or have a whole new "subject" on that one topic.

Where have your ponderings and musings led you?

[gardenschooler]

Sorry to leave you hanging! I had a lot to think over and digest. I also had a pretty hard time trying to pinpoint exactly what I'm really good at! But I did sort of narrow down a little bit where I'm trying to go.

I think if I had to sum up how I go about doing things, it's structure with a little extra freedom built-in. But the main structure has to be there to begin with. I have to have a plan - a set one, not anything that has the words 'we'll see how it goes' in it.

But, I don't like everything planned out for me. I like to do the extras - the 'enrichment' part of things. That's the area that I really enjoy tailoring to each particular child. I feel like I have the freedom to do that if I know all of the other basics are covered.

These two reasons are why we did thrive using a textbook not only as a spine, really, but as a base. When you've got all of your mapwork, comprehension questions, a few critical thinking questions/essay topics, tests, charts, timelines - well, that just frees me up so much more to be able to really expend my energy on the extras - the biographies, the library books, the activities, and trying to tie as much in as possible to 'bring it to life'.

And that's all worked out fine and dandy so far, except I've always felt something more was lacking. It's the really knowing it that was not there - sure, we could read until our heart's content, even discuss it, but if the discussion can't go any further than what I know....then what? What if we get to the point where I don't even know what to discuss? Well, we're there.

And while I could have used a bit more help even in the last few years, now it's just....mandatory. I'm really unable to take my kids to a much higher level, unless I also learn it. This isn't just what I can flip off the top of my head, or find an answer for, or read along with - there's some kind of deeper understanding that I simply don't have.

So that's the problem. Not only do I not know the answers, I don't even know what the questions are supposed to be!

In looking ahead at next fall and beginning high school w/dd13, I came to a few conclusions. Not only do I want to be sure I do this right and put my all into it so that I can truly give my dd a high school education that she will really learn from and be challenged by, I want to find what that elusive 'something more' is that I've been sensing, but not quite able to grasp.

This 'something more' is not just learning all the facts and reading some good books and "Oh, isn't that interesting?", it's really, truly *getting it*. Or at least a little bit. Getting how it all fits together. I want to see some REAL connections, not just the little bits I've seen so far.

I think what I'm trying to say is, I'm finally at the Rhetoric level! And that's an amazing thing (it only took me 39 years, and over a decade of homeschooling!)

I need a lot of help getting where I want to go. Exactly what pieces I'll use to get there isn't really as important anymore. I think I just figured out that I can actually learn things on my own - even the really hard things. It is harder now, because now I'm going into unchartered territory.

Even though I did 9th grade w/dd#1, I always relied on my handy TM's. If the answers/discussions weren't in there, we'd look it up, sure, but we'd be just as likely to move on after finding the quickest answer that would partially satisfy us. I just wasn't willing or ready. I was concerned with getting that dd prepared to go off to high school, and I did that. But some things got swept aside in doing that, and above all, we had a schedule to adhere to. There just wasn't a whole lot of time to go deeper. (In my defense, it was an emotionally trying year AND we had some major medical issues, so I was doing well to even be able to keep going!).

But everything is different now. With only two kids at home, I've discovered how much *time* I really have. I have tons. I don't have a whole lot of money, and that might make things a little more difficult, but since I've homeschooled this far on sheer willpower, a library card, and just a little money, there's got to be a way I can keep going with that AND go to the next level.

Continuing in another post - I feel talkative tonight!

[gardenschooler]

Back to the money thing....

This is my real stumbling block with committing to something like TOG. I'd be more than happy to take something and adapt it, leave a little, change a little here and there, add a little of this, but not at that price. It's not really so much of a *choice*, either. I just don't have that kind of money, and have never spent that kind of money on anything for our school. I have a great library, and I borrow and trade quite a bit. For me to spend the couple or three hundred dollars TOG would require, well, something else would have to give (but what? math? No! Literature? Latin? Already use the library and internet for those). So it's a really hard decision for me. It has to just be the cat's meow, because if I get it, we'd have to do without something big.

This is why we've never done IEW writing. I just can't. It sounds like heaven, but if you just don't have it, then what? I could be more diligent in cruising the sale boards, looking out for these things, but boy, do they get snatched up quickly!

I think that the way TOG ties things all in together would be very helpful to me, but the main thing that is lacking when I do my 'homemade unit studies' is that there's no one to direct the discussion! Who is going to do that? Me, the clueless? :D So instead we just read and talk and say, "Hmm, what do you think of that?" and rely on SparkNotes and textbooks and whatever else we can dig up.

If I'd had the confidence to really follow WTM to the letter (which I'd do in spurts), maybe I'd have the whole system down by now. We did most of the logic stage recommendations, but not all, and what we did do, we probably did in a very un-classical way. We kept notebooks (but messy ones, with little rhyme or reason) and made outlines and read about famous people, but when it came to things like analyzing primary sources, we relied on the textbook (and it had a decent selection, I thought). We didn't really go through and ask the questions on our own (as described in WTM), we simply followed the worksheet, which was sort of close to covering those questions, but the main point I'm trying to make is - we didn't learn how to do it on our own. So we can't really apply it to another primary source - we'd be looking around for our worksheet, for our little checklist.

One part of WTM is really sticking out to me right now. It's on p. 269 of the revised version, p. 273 of the old one.

I have a ".....cluttered, disorderly mind" (this was a quote from classical schoolmaster David Hicks).

One good thing that I've learned is that I should have just trusted the process back then, instead of thinking, "Oh, I can do this better! Our notebooks don't need nine whole categories! What overkill!" So we just did a little of it here and there, and called it good. And it was - good, that is. But it wasn't great.

I don't have a whole lot of regret, because for one thing, the book was sitting right there in front of me. I made a choice. Sometimes I would do more than other times, but because I reached burn out somewhere in there early on (maybe 5 years ago? When oldest was around 5th/6th grade), I started to see that I needed a bit of a crutch or we simply weren't going to be homeschooling anymore, period. Not really a crutch (as I really do think textbooks can be a good base, if used properly and not overly-relied upon), but just something to take the pressure off. And it worked, for that time. It's what I needed.

If I use any kind of 'textbook base' now, though, I wouldn't neglect the part about learning the WTM methods as well - frequently and thoroughly. And maybe if I was doing everything explicitly as described in the book, I would find the whole idea of tests and questions redundant. But maybe not. I do still think it can be a good thing, but I see how I got too comfortable in a checklist mentality, and neglected to really force us to *organize the material*. Sometimes I'd get creative and come up with a really good idea for a timeline or a project, or a report that included lots of research and 'layering' of history around a specific point in time, but those were a little too few and far between.

Ok, I have *even more* wheels spinning now, so I'd better go see where they're going!

This is VERY helpful to me, to be able to talk out loud like this. I'm figuring some things out that I just never could understand before. Thanks for indulging me.




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How was your time in the garden? Sounds lovely. I wish we had a garden--we are surrounded by lots of brown dirt, rocks, and construction rubble--we moved into an unfinished house and the outside is *not* a priority... I don't have a green thumb at all, but right now I am *trying* to get a few herbs going with a bit of help from my husband. A friend gave me a small windowsill cactus--something green that needs very little care--one month and still alive! :-)


My time in the garden is really the only time that I can think clearly, so it was good. Something about pulling weeds and turning over soil slows me down enough to be able to soak up everything I've been reading, talking about, and thinking.

Construction rubble, oh dear. You can't garden in construction rubble! If you're able to in the fall, think about planting a tree somewhere out of the way of the rubble. Nothing's more gratifying than seeing a tree you planted a decade or two ago. I planted a Tulip Magnolia at the house we lived in when my older girls were just babies. It's the one permanent piece of evidence I have that I *did* something! :D

I don't have any great ideas on how to "light the fire" in our children. I think there is a big discrepancy in the kind of education we as adults want to see happen vs. what our children want. They *are* knowledgeable about what interests them. It is not that there is *no* learning taking place, but rather a questioning of the value of what they are learning.

You're right, they are knowledgeable about what interests them. I think it is very possible to make history one of those things. Now, to figure out *how*.

I very much appreciate the inclusion of a breadth of learning--the making of connections across a broad spectrum of learning and interests.

I think that's one of the keys. When they can see that something is applicable across so many different divisions of time and circumstances, something that will really enrich their life long-term, they're more interested. My dd is very interested right now in learning several different languages. I'm not up to that, but I will try to provide opportunities for her. I've tackled Latin with her,and we'll continue that, and she'll start Spanish next year. She also wants to learn Italian, and I can handle that at some point - maybe after she's made some headway with the Spanish. And German - but now we're getting in too deep. I'll just have to try to keep that fire going, even though I don't really see how learning 3-4 languages is really possible. But we do need to pay attention when they express an interest in something, and try to help them.

Your 'Period Studies' sound very interesting. I'll ponder that, too. There are so many little, unrelated and 'don't fit neatly in a subject' things that I want to do. Great ideas, keep 'em coming!