A math question for you all...

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'm really curious to learn what math strategies you're all pursuing with your high school students. What program are you using? Or did you go the tutorial route? Or the co-op route...or community college...or online course?

Let me know what's working.

SWB

[Grace is Sufficient]

Let me know what's working.
SWB

What has worked for us (because I am Algebra-phobic and math-inept!) is Videotext Interactive. As the name implies, it's a video/DVD course. The lessons are short - usually less than 15 minutes, but the instructors make things extremely clear. In fact, until this month when I missed the first four or five lessons in conic sections and got totally lost, I've been able to follow and understand everything. (If you really get lost on a lesson, there's even an 800 number to ask for help!.)

My husband, an aerospace engineer, has been very satisfied with the scope/sequence of it, so as far as I'm concerned, it passes the 'rigor' test. It is formatted somewhat differently, however. Instead of the more typical Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, Trig/Precalc progression, it has a 2 year Algebra course covering Alg. 1&2, followed by a 2 year Geometry course, covering Geometry, Trig. and Pre-calc.

It has been a huge blessing for our family.

[Beth in OH]

For dd's #1 and #2, I used Singapore PM and NEM up through the end of the freshman year, and then I switched to Foerster's Algebra and Trig for sophomore year. That is the end of my math comfort zone, so I farm them out for pre-calculus. Dd #1 took pre-calc (junior) and calc (senior) at the local ps. It has worked well--she has earned A's and has done fine on her college admissions math sections.

I'm currently looking for classroom options for dd #2. We will be living in a city next school year, so we will have a few more options. Our first choice is to find a classroom setting (public or private or co-op) where she can take high school level pre-calc followed by calc. Dd is good at math, but it's not her passion. Due to the pace, college level courses, even CC, will require more hours of work than she wants to invest at this point. We want dd to have the mental space to pursue other interests without the pressure of college math as a young student. Online courses would be our second choice.

[Veronica in VA]

Well, I'm not done yet so I can't say for sure it has worked, but here is what we are doing/have done.

For my mathy son, I used Lial's Algebra and Chalkdust Geometry. He didn't particularly like the Lial's, but I did. I didn't go beyond that with him as he went to ps.

For my non-mathy daughter, who has changed and now seems to love math(!!) I used Math Relief (Keyboard Enterprises) for Algebra I and now Algebra 2. She has really seemed to "get it" with this approach and looks forward to math. What amazes me is how she likes to wrestle with a problem and try to figure it out before watching the videotape. Next year we will probably use Chalkdust Geometry since I have it. My dd seems to hate watching videotapes though, so I may have to go another route. I was just thinking on that this morning.

So far I haven't used outside classes for math, but if dd wants to go beyond pre-calc, she will have to do that at cc. I do have a friend who has tutored my dc when needed.

Veronica

[Jane in NC]

As head proselytizer for the old Dolciani texts (not a family member who is in the royalty loop, but a believer, mind you), I will again argue the case for these books which were published in the '60's and '70's. They are solid in their development of the subject material. Many students who have parents participating in these boards use them independently (unless they have an enthusiastic mother peering over their shoulder who is compelled to point out something quite interesting in the material). The books introduce students to proofs. This is critical because many texts treat mathematics as algorithm after algorithm, without explaining the whys or connecting any dots along the way.

A student who works his way through Algebra I and Algebra II/Trig will see most of the material in a modern precalculus text. My son would not learn anything new if he were to enroll in a precalculus course at a CC next year. Instead he will use the Dolciani Modern Introductory Analysis book, an excellent foundation for an honors Calculus course or one geared to math majors. (I do not think that he will follow that path, but I believe in keeping all options open. This is a boy who loves physics.)

Disadvantage: solutions manuals and teacher's books for these old editions are hard to find, albeit not impossible.

Jane

[Kimber]

I am one of Jane In NC's converts. I plan to use these in a year or so. Can't say how it's worked yet, but I believe!

[Jane in NC]

I am one of Jane In NC's converts.

Can we get secret decoder rings or something??

[mcconnellboys]

I used VideoText for Algebra I and II. I would have continued with their geometry if my son had not gone back to private school, where he's taking geometry this year.

I had NEM all ready to go, but found quickly that I could not implement it, myself. I also had Saxon as a backup, just in case.... (Can we all see that Mom was *scared* about math?)

[Valerie(TX)]

for ds18, the probable future engineer --

1) 7th - Lial's Intro Alg
2) 8th & 9th - Larson et al for Geometry (Lial's Geometry was not yet out) We spread out a "year" of honors geometry due to intensive daily remedial work for dyslexia.
3) 10th Lial's Intermed Alg

first three years tutorial-style daily with me

4) 11th - BJU Homesat Precalc (a disaster: poor teacher; horrible textbook). We changed about halfway through the year to Thinkwell lectures combined with Lial's Precalc textbook. On his own, but had the BJU been good, it should not have mattered that I was no longer involved.

5) 12th - PreCalc at UTA

He tested directly into Calculus I at UTA, but we decided to have him do their PreCalc his senior year, to make sure he was thoroughly grounded/prepared. The first semester was rough with advanced algrebra beyond what he had had, made worse by really crummy, error-riddled, online software to input and grade the problems sets, costing him many hours of wasted time; the trig this semester is not as difficult.) Grades: B, A.

In our case, I felt that, aside from the year of Precalc at home that was such a frustration, all the Lial's books have worked very well. I am using it for dd15 who is not not the math-head that ds is, and she too is doing well with it. I will most likely outsource her senior year PreCalc to CC or to UTA, as she is anxious to move into more formal classroom situations.

I am starting Lial's BCM with ds13 (7th) who is benefitting from the review before he moves into Algebra. He is nowhere near ready for abstract thinking, so I'm using BCM for the next few months to solidify his concepts and placehold while his brain matures. Maybe by fall he'll be ready for a slow introduction to algebra.

[Michelle in MO]

Algebra, and for Geometry we've used Chalkdust. I've found it necessary to listen to the DVT's (for Lial's) and the DVD's (for Chalkdust) so I can help both older girls. That helps me tremendously, as my information on math is 25+ years old!

I may become one of Jane's converts to Dolciani's texts, as sometimes the word problems in Lial's are a bit too complex for some high school students.

If I could do it over, I'd try to find a tutor to come over daily, or at least three times a week, as early in the morning as possible for the tutor, and help them with math.

Our plan for next year includes community college for the oldest, and possibly the h.s. for the middle child. Since my husband developed heart problems in the fall, we both feel it's time for me to go back to school, and I'm not sure if I would do so well homeschooling and getting a master's degree. :(

[Cynde]

We used videotext for algebra. Both dc did well with it and we liked it. VT didn't have their geometry program published when we finished algebra, so we had to switch.

We then began using Chalkdust. We've used them for geometry, precalculus, and calculus. We love Chalkdust! Although we liked VT, if I had to do it all over, I would use Chalkdust for algebra too. Personally, I like VT's idea of doing Algebra I and II in sequence and then going on to geometry. I would have pursued this sequence with Chalkdust too.

I really like the Larson texts that CD uses and love Mr. Mosley's video lectures. Overall, they are longer than VT lectures which some people don't like. I've also heard some say they find the CD lectures boing. However, neither of our dc have ever complained about them, and IMHO, I think they're great. What I find is that both VT and CD stress the importance of learning concepts and not memorizing processes or shortcuts - a plus for both programs.

With CD, you can contact Mr. Mosley by email or phone for help. The response time has always been quick and extremely helpful. This has been a huge benefit for us!

One strategy I've used is having dc keep what I call a "formula notebook." We use a sprial bound 4 x 6 card book. For each lesson, the write done formulas or concepts in the book. They use this for quick reference instead of having to page through the text book. We don't memorize these - that just seems to come with continued practice. Dc use the book as a reference.

[Bev in B'ville]

My oldest, dd, has used Saxon for Pre-Algebra, Algebra I, and Algebra II, but has asked to use something different next year for Precalculus. After much perusing of books (Forester, Lial, Larson, Dolciani), she chose Larson's Precalculus with Limits: A Graphing Approach with the accompanying DVDs (which I bought from the publisher- not Chalkdust -much, much cheaper).

For Geometry, we started out with Jacob's. Dd did not like the explanations on the DVDs (askdrcallahan DVDs) and needed more in-depth explanations. Again, after much perusing she chose Teaching Textbooks for Geometry, which I was happy to let her do as she was still doing Algebra 2 with Saxon, which also covered some geometry. (She did Alg. 2 simultaneously with Geometry.) Just a side note, even though dd had the DIVE cds for Saxon's Algebra 2, she preferred the explanations given by TT's DVDs and watched those clips for her Saxon geometry problems. I have no idea what we'll do for Calclulus yet (online, CC, DVDs at home?)

Now for ds. He completed Saxon's Pre-Algebra (I know, it's called Algebra 1/2, just trying to keep is simple) and hated it. He's my visual person and needs a visual "pop" to keep his interest in a textbook. Saxon in black/white didn't do it for him. (Even though he likes math and is good at it, math became like pulling teeth in my house, he really didn't like Saxon). I went to Dolciani's Algebra Structure & Method, Book 1, which he is finishing up this year. I LOVE this book and would continue with Book 2 for Algebra 2, but I really want the DVDs to help teach the subject. He ended up choosing Lial's Intermediate Algebra, 10E with the DVTs for his Algebra 2 program (the choices were Lial's or Larson's). I'm hoping he'll be able to use Larson's Precalculus next year so I don't have to buy yet another math curriculum. He'll use his sister's TT for Geometry (yahoo!) concurrently with Algebra 2.

Tune in next year for the continuing saga that is math at my house.:001_smile:

[In The Great White North]

We used Foerster's Algebra I and Jacob's geometry in 9th grade (he supposedly had Algebra in 8th at school, but...), Foerster's Algebra II and Trig (older edition) in 10th. I'm planning calculus for next year.

He does is mostly on his own ,as he doesn't "like" mom teaching him unless he can't figure it out himself.

I anticipate next year being a bit harder on mom.

[Ruth in Canada]

Probably will go all the way through Foerster's calculus at home, then there will still be another year for some kind of university math class. DD likes to interact, so we're involved in helping.

We have now used Aleks for 2 1-month periods for review--I anticipate that we'll continue to do that.

[Linda in NM]

We're using Videotext Algebra with my 8th-grade ds...I've noticed that he has some problems with word problems (motion problems, for example), and I've augmented with additional worksheets that "build" examples for him so that he develops mastery of the concept (I make them up)...

[Linda in NM]

Oh, and we use Carmen Sandiego Math software for review, and because it's fun...

[Charon]

As head proselytizer for the old Dolciani texts (not a family member who is in the royalty loop, but a believer, mind you), I will again argue the case for these books which were published in the '60's and '70's. They are solid in their development of the subject material. Many students who have parents participating in these boards use them independently (unless they have an enthusiastic mother peering over their shoulder who is compelled to point out something quite interesting in the material). The books introduce students to proofs. This is critical because many texts treat mathematics as algorithm after algorithm, without explaining the whys or connecting any dots along the way.

A student who works his way through Algebra I and Algebra II/Trig will see most of the material in a modern precalculus text. My son would not learn anything new if he were to enroll in a precalculus course at a CC next year. Instead he will use the Dolciani Modern Introductory Analysis book, an excellent foundation for an honors Calculus course or one geared to math majors. (I do not think that he will follow that path, but I believe in keeping all options open. This is a boy who loves physics.)

Disadvantage: solutions manuals and teacher's books for these old editions are hard to find, albeit not impossible.

Jane


I'll also second Jane's post. However, I use Frank Allen instead of Dolciani and will end with a book by Allendoerfer and Oakley rather than the Dolciani, Beckenbach, Wooton, etc book. But, mine are even more scarce than hers, so even less recommendable to someone else since you probably cannot get your hands on the texts themselves, let alone such things as solutions manuals or teachers manuals.

I would also say that in my (albeit vastly minority) opinion, physics majors need it more than math majors. A math major gets to just live in a fairly contrived world of whatever the math department is doing. And, they will eventually get to the rigor. A physics major (and the physics department) is constrained by the needs of the physical problems they encounter. The world doesn't care if you don't have the math to handle this now or not -- it just is what it is. And furthermore, once they struggle through something enough to ostensibly "get it" (e.g. convincingly BS their way through it, say), they have very little incentive to go back and "do it right". So, there is no reason at all they will get the rigor eventually. And so, a mathematically rigorous understanding calculus, for instance, is something that they could really benefit from that most of them probably never get.

Nevertheless, I do realize that no body does it that way, so who am I to buck the system....

[Raders Fan]

I would gladly have used the Dolciani texts. They were the books my schools used when I was a high school freshman at one of the top ten public schools in California. I still have the algebra and geometry texts. But I was put off by the idea of having to track down the teacher’s/solution manual. While I can still solve most of the problems in the book, I can’t explain them well enough to teach my dc. I really need to have a complete solutions manual.

So we use Saxon with the DIVE CDs. In each lesson, the teacher explains all the new material and works the practice problems. My children follow along, working the same problems on their white boards. (It seems to be much less painful with a white board and colorful marker than with pencil and paper.) No matter how many times the dc ask the same question (push the play button for the lesson), the teacher still patiently and kindly explains the material! He’s a saint!

Having the dc use the DIVE saves me a lot of time. Up until about lesson 40 in the Algebra 2 book, ds15 was able to work through all the problems very well on his own. Since reaching lesson 40, he has needed to use the solutions manual every once in a while, but still continues to work through the material very well.

Ds #1 (now in college) worked through about lesson 85 of the Algebra 2 book. He scored a 32 on the ACT and 680 on the SAT (math sections only) with no test prep whatsoever. He loathed math and had no intention of ever going into a math or science field, so we called him done with those scores. The plan is to have ds15 continue with Saxon through calculus at home. If we find the local college to be good (we just moved across the country), and if gas prices fall enough to afford the commute, he may consider taking calculus at the college.

Jennifer

[Kendall]

So far NEM 1,2,3A then various failed attempts at Geometry and then Foersters AlgII/Trig. This child is now taking a break from Alg II to get the Geometry we really never finished. We are using Birkhoff's Basic Geometry(along with a 5 min daily Alg II review from the Foerster book). Then he will finish Alg II portion of Foerster's book and move to Foerster Trig/Precalc .

Child number 2 is doing NEM 1 and NEM 2 and Maybe part of NEM 3A(but skipping the geometry). Then he will do the Birkhoff Geometry, then the Foerster books.

If I could find an Allen or Dolciani with answers I would try those;I would like the proof in the Algebra though I wonder if the problems would be as challenging as NEM.

[yinne]

This year my dd has used Foerster for Algebra and next year she will use Jacobs for Geometry. I have been so pleased with the Foerster book. The explanations in the book are very clear. I had a dismal math education in high school and was apprenhensive about teaching this course, but she has done a fabulous job. She has about 3 weeks of work left and then she will be finished with the book.

Hoping that Geometry will be just as successful.

Yvonne in NE

[Charon]

So far NEM 1,2,3A then various failed attempts at Geometry and then Foersters AlgII/Trig. This child is now taking a break from Alg II to get the Geometry we really never finished. We are using Birkhoff's Basic Geometry(along with a 5 min daily Alg II review from the Foerster book). Then he will finish Alg II portion of Foerster's book and move to Foerster Trig/Precalc .

Child number 2 is doing NEM 1 and NEM 2 and Maybe part of NEM 3A(but skipping the geometry). Then he will do the Birkhoff Geometry, then the Foerster books.

If I could find an Allen or Dolciani with answers I would try those;I would like the proof in the Algebra though I wonder if the problems would be as challenging as NEM.


I kind of doubt it. It's not like I have gone through NEM with a fine toothed comb or anything, but I think what makes Allen challenging is more in the way of the axiomatic method you use all along the way. (But, I wouldn't characterize the problems as easy either.) So, there is some value-added in that regard to doing Singapore. In fact, I suspect that our kids will not do as well on the SAT being trained on Allen as opposed to NEM, for that matter.

[Punkinelly]

Ds17 is using TT Geometry and Lial Alg. Ds15 is using Basic College Math.

They like them and are doing well.

Mary

[Nissi]

Ds. has used Lial's BCM, Foerster's Algebra 1, and Number Theory from the Art of Problem Solving Company. In the fall we are thinking of using Geometry by Jurgensen or Chalkdust Geometry along with the Counting and Probability texts from Art of Problem Solving. We plan on Foerster's Algebra II and Trig. and Calculus for the future.

Nissi

[readwithem]

We've done BJU up through Alg 2 but are going with Scholars Online next year for precalc, they use Foresters.

[MIch elle]

with the DIVE cd. How about you? What's worked well for your dc?

[Mandy in TN]

DS #1 (currently 10th grade)- MUS Alg1, Geometry, Alg2

DS #1 does not like math and does not consider himself good at it. He started Kumon Math last month and will continue with this next year- his junior year. I am seriously considering adding Jacobs Mathematics: A Human Endeavor to build his confidence. His senior year he will go to the local community college at whatever level he qualifies.

DS #2 (currently 9th grade)- MUS Alg1, Geometry, Alg2

DS #2 does like math and does consider himself good at it. However, this ds is careless and does not test well. Next year he will also be doing Kumon Math and maybe Life of Fred. I would like to move him forward next year, but the main goal is proficiency. His junior year he will go to the local community college at whatever level he qualifies.

Mandy

[Lisa L. in MI]

Although currently the engineering son is using Jacobs geometry (3rd ed) between Saxon alg 1 and 2.

[Sharon in MD]

First, Thank you, Susan, for creating this place for us and your wonderful books! I'm on here pretty much daily, sometimes multiple times! (Some days too much I confess!)

We've used Jacobs for Al I and Geometry then switched to Foerster for Al II and then moved on to his Precalculus with Trig course. I really compared Foerster's Al I and Jacobs before going with Jacobs. They are extremely similar. Foerster goes a bit deeper in AL I than Jacobs, but I feel that Jacobs is a bit more approachable for the student, especially with his humor and old comics. Jacobs doesn't have a real solutions manual, but, even as math phobic as I was at that point (dismal high school math background), I didn't have any trouble figuring out where my son went wrong when he had a problem. The examples and explanations were very clear. I feel that both Jacobs and Foerster do an outstanding job of showing the WHYs of math.

I used the third ed. of Jacobs next for Geometry. In this case, the lack of a "solutions manual" is really a moot point because with the answer key for a proof naturally shows the whole proof. I also liked the fact that you could use geometers sketchpad if you had the time....personally, we never seem to manage to have the time to fit that kind of activity in.

Then we switched over to AL II with Trig by Foerster. I actually had an email conversation with Paul Foerster before deciding how to proceed. He recommended that I only use the AL II portion of this text for a one year AL II course. He felt that the fact that this older text did not teach a student how to effectively use modern graphing calculators was a real disadvantage for students hoping to take the AP Calculus tests. He recommended using his Precalculus with Trigonometry text for that. We are most of the way through this text now and will finish it up in late May or the first week of June. It really does require the student to learn how to use that grapher, which I think is a really good thing. It has been challenging at times because the text does assume you have a teacher who already knows how to use it, but we have managed to find helps online to perform the more challenging functions. (And one time called a friend who is taking AP statistics to see if he could help....he did). I also like the on-line Keymath dynamic presentations that you can use to illustrate concepts....they are a pretty nice asset.

Because this year has really shown me that I'm at the end of myself for math, we will be farming out Calculus next year....at least that is our hope. DS will have to take the placement test at the CC and if he passes, he will take Calculus there in the fall. I'd be shocked, given our prep, if he did not place into their Calculus. If he doesn't make it in, we'll probably switch to Chalkdust, because I'm afraid we'll need more support than I can provide on my own. If we don't go with Chalkdust, I'll probably hire a tutor and use Foerster.

I hope this is helpful. Thanks again!

[Susan in IL]

We started hsing in the middle - 7th grade. Ds didn't know his math facts and was counting on his fingers. He is now finishing his sophomore year in college.

7th - Saxon Alg. 1/2
8th - Jacob's Algebra
9th - Jacob's Geometry
10th - Foerster's Alg. II/Trig (all but 2 chapters)
11th - Pre-Calc at the local high school
12th - AP Calc at the local high school
College - One semester of calculus is required but his 4 on the AP exam met the requirement.

Hope this helps.

[Julie in CA]

It's too soon for me to declare what we're doing a success yet, but...
Thinkwell is what we're using for our 3 high school-aged sons.
Here are the features I like about it:
*Video lessons by a teacher we think is a "hoot". The kids watch more closely because the professor is often very funny.
*The problem sets are done via the Internet and the kids receive immediate feedback about how to do the problem if they've missed it.
*If the kids score low on the exercises, you can click the button and get another problem set with all new problems. You can pretty much do the lesson (with new problems each time) as many times as you need to, and take as much time/practice as you need to succeed.
*There are printable notes for most (if not all) lessons. My kids find it helpful to print the notes and refer to them as needed. They are very concise, and really provide just what you need to remember.
*The checklist feature makes it easy for me to tell at a glance how far my kids have progressed through the course.
*I don't have to think about testing, because it's included.
*The courses are (I think) marketed more to colleges, and seem to be very rigorous, though I'm really not a great judge about that.
*I don't have to worry about the series not being released/ready when we need them, because Thinkwell is already established beyond what my dc will probably need before just going on to math at the community college.
~Julie~

[Brindee]

We tried Saxon last year, but it didn't go over well at all! This year we're using TT Pre-Algebra for dd10, and TT Algebra 1 for ds14. They like the dvd presentations and actually are enjoying math, compared to the huge distaste last year!

[Gwen in VA]

We use:

Pre-Algebra: An Accelerated Course (Dolciani)
Algebra 1 (Dolciani, Swanson, & Graham)
Geometry (Jurgensen, Brown, and Jurgensen)
Advanced Mathematics (Brown)

Calculus 1 at William & Mary
Calculus 2 at William & Mary

The texts we use for math seem to do a great job preparing the kids for the calculus classes. Both have gotten compliments on how well prepared they are for calculus.

The kids mostly self-teach the math. They come to me with any questions. I correct the assignments and I go over the work that needs redoing with them.

My kids joke that calculus 2 is a graduation requirement for our homeschool. We have two more kids to go, but I think that all will have calculus 2, and one will probably do multi-variable calculus as well.

[Kelli in TN]

I am using Teaching Textbooks along with Aleks. My method could best be described as the "get'er done" method of high school math.

If one of the younger kids ends up being mathy I will have no choice but to hire a tutor. Or I could send them to a tutorial, even though I would rather gouge my eyes out then have my life dictated by someone else's scheduling. But that is probably more information than you wanted.

Before TT we employed private math tutors for our middle school and high school age children. Can you say "Honey, I think we need to take out a second mortgage for this?"

[JennW in SoCal]

My strategy has been to do whatever it takes to get a passing score on the California High School Exit Exam, because he has to pass it in order to get a diploma from the charter school in which he is enrolled. Algebra II is not in his future.

What worked for Algebra:

MUS because of the uncluttered workbook pages. Until it came to graphing equations, where for some inexplicable reason MUS has multiple problems on one grid.

Lots of cheap workbooks found at Barnes and Noble:
Algebra Success in 20 minutes a day
Princeton Review workbook on the CA High School Exit Exam
Algebra for Dummies

A math tutor who is also a homeschool mom has been a lifesaver.

And, I wholeheartedly agree with the user friendliness of wipe-off boards with colorful dry-erase markers! Different steps in problems can be in different colors, and it makes the work just a little more fun.

This year, he is really enjoying Jacob's Geometry, because there aren't all those algebra problems that require lots attention to detail.

[Kareni]

We began homeschooling when my daughter was in 7th grade. That year we used a mishmash of library resources for Pre-Algebra. (I'd chose Lial's BCM now if doing it again with monetary resources!)

In 8th grade, she used Lial's Beginning Algebra under my direction.

In 9th grade, she started the year at a resource center using Jacobs' Geometry, 3rd edition. We pulled her out midyear as she was not learning as much as we would have liked. (Disorganized teacher.) My husband (who tutors math) then oversaw the rest of the year. She chose Jacobs' 2nd edition as the text having found the 3rd edition to be more distracting.

In 10th grade, she did Lial's Intermediate Algebra (under my husband's supervision).

This year, she placed into College Algebra at the community college and followed that with Trig. Both classes used Sullivan's Pre-Calculus.

She also used Chalkdust's SAT Math review DVDs before taking the SAT last month. She found them useful.

Next year, her senior year, will probably be Calculus (for non-Science majors) or Discrete Math at the community college. The decider will probably be what fits best into her schedule.

It's been interesting to see the various paths that others have chosen. It's great (though it can be daunting too) that there are so many good options available for our children!

Thanks for providing these boards, Ms. Bauer! I enjoy them very much.

Regards,
Kareni

[Maverick]

Well, Susan, I am the opposite of you so my strategy might not work for you. ;) I am a math teacher by training and inclination so teaching my kids math is my favorite thing. I use plain ol' math texts like Foerster and Jacobs for Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II and Trig. My kids may do Calculus at the community college just because they want to do dual enrollment their last year or two of high school. I hire a tutor for writing. :001_smile:

[percytruffle]

Starting in 7th grade: Saxon Algebra 1/2 through the first half of Saxon Advanced Math, with the DIVE DVD's for Algebra II and Advanced Math. Then, I ship them off to the cc to continue.

We have found the Chalkdust Math SAT prep DVD's very useful.

[Quiver0f10]

19 yo did some saxon then finished with Teaching Texbooks and had to take remedial math her freshman year of college.

18 yo did saxon through Alg 2, then pre-cal at a charter school for 11th, but I can't remember what publisher is was. Then he took calc/trig at the community college his senior year and recieved an A. He enters college in the fall as a freshman and is majoring in engineering.

16 yo has used Teaching Textbooks so far and is taking college algebra next year as a senior at the comunnity college.

15 yo is using Saxon, which he likes and we plan to stick with for him.

For the remaining children we plan to use BJU all the way through. These plans can change, of course :D

[Karenciavo]

We are using Chalkdust Algebra I this year. The DVDs are a great help.

[Eliana]

My eldest did Saxon through Algebra II at home and precalc at a really first rate community college (where she'll do three terms of calculus and then stop).

We were going to go through Calculus here at home with Saxon, but since she'll be doing calculus based physics at the college, it made sense for her to stagger that with the three calc courses... and she didn't want to leap into it with Calculus, she wanted to get her feet wet first and see how they did things there... and get used to doing things in a more compressed time frame.


One of the most fascinating things about hsing long-term is seeing which of my firm plans end up happening and which evolve into something else!

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

We're a Dolciani family as well for the reasons Jane laid out, but I find the newer texts just build on the older ones. I own both, and in direct comparison believe that while the older ones were 'from the horse's mouth' or Dolciani's direct words, the newer ones are laid out the same and add more challenging material (C level problems rather than just A and B level). The drawback is, others have gotten a hold of the books and in trying to make them more modern and update the language, they've muddied up her elegant language a bit. Still, the newer texts won out for me because Teacher's guides and Solutions Manuals are readily available.

We supplement with ALEKS for review and breaks in routine. We use Thinkwell lectures (but not the problem sets) to clarify rough spots. They are available on HotMath for only $20 a year.

Good luck!

Barb

[CynthiaOK]

I have one finishing this year and I liked what we did with him. I will continue this plan with the 2nd son, but my 3rd son may be different. We've used NEM 1-4 as well as Primary Math continuing with Lial's & ChalkDust.

We finished through Alg. 2 (Alg. 1, geometry, Alg. 2) by the end of 10th grade. This allowed us to enroll concurrently at our local university (branch of state school) for College Algebra, then Trig, then Calculus 1. So, by graduation from high school my sons have completed through Calc. 1 at the college level. And the bonus is that I didn't have to teach it (although I could have because I've had through Calc. 2 in college) and could focus on other subjects.

[Janice in NJ]

I will probably have them transition to Community College for calculus - but I plan to be looking over their shoulder even then to make sure that they learn how to "function" ;) in a math class. Learning how to learn in a math/science class requires a different set of skills than a humanities class.

As a result, we have had to tweak our acceleration a bit. They were all scheduled to reach calculus before 12th grade. I've changed that.

It seems to me that a co-op would be a difficult way to handle math. Most kids need solid math instruction every day. Every, every day. :001_smile: At least mine do. Our sessions remind me of the spiral review that you find in the TE of the Rod & Staff Grammar books. We start out with a bit of review of yesterday's lesson and a bit of review of something that they learned last week and/or last month/year. And then we launch into the new lesson. I teach the concept and follow by guided practice - they watch me do a problem, we do a problem together, and then I watch them do one. Then they do a couple on their own while I bounce over to the piano to turn on the metronome for the little brother who is racing downhill with his scales. I come back and check the math work. Then we move on to a tougher concept together. Rinse. This can last for a VERY fast-paced 30-40 minutes. Then they go off to work on their own. I check their work during the next session.

I really find that this is the best way for my kids to learn math. We have used Thinkwell before though. I really like Ed Burger, and he really helped us during those times when I just needed to use my teacher/student face-time on something other than math.

So what if you can't teach upper level math? I would suggest a video tutor, but you would have to MONITOR the process and teach them how to learn from a teacher. A student has to practice working the problems themselves - otherwise they are not going to learn. Ed Burger makes everything look easy. No problem, right? Until they try to work the problems on their own at the end of the lesson and find out that they can't really remember what to do. After Ed teaches a concept he does a few practice problems which naturally become more and more difficult as the lesson proceeds. I had to TRAIN my kids to pause the DVD and try the problem on their own - BEFORE Ed shows them the solution. (They needed to be REQUIRED to do this or they wouldn't do it. Mom's a crank. DEAL! :nopity:) AFTER they are finished or stuck, they resumed the DVD. Now Ed's solution means something. :001_smile: The process helped them learn. They will have the foundation that they need to do the next practice problem that Ed offers.

I think Chalkdust recommends a similar method. The child is encouraged to INTERACT with the DVD instruction, not just watch it in a couch-potato kind of way.

Even then, a video can't replace a person. I think that every student should occasionally have access to a tutor in order to ask questions or have their thinking evaluated. Once every two weeks would be fine if the student isn't having trouble with the material. Once a month would be better than nothing.

It honestly reminds me of humanities instruction. So many programs indicate that they are self-teaching. Yes, a student can certainly read the Cliff-Notes on Paradise Lost and then read the poem and write an essay. But I suspect that the student will enjoy the whole process a lot more if a PERSON discusses the book with them, connects it to other books that they have read, and then READS their essay and provides feedback. :D

I think that most students would find more beauty in mathematics if it was a shared experience - even if the bulk of the work is done on their own.

Peace,
Janice in NJ

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[Chris in VA]

Ds18 is not mathy, and neither am I. What finally worked for us was to have Dad take over math. He can speed up or (mostly!) slow down whenever ds needs him to.
We tried Jacobs Algebra, but stopped around the Spring and did Algebra in 20 Minutes. Then we tried TT for Geometry, but there were way too many proofs. This year, we are using a book I picked up at a garage sale called Intermediate Algebra, for Algebra 2, and, as I said, Dad's teaching it.
Next year? We are trying to graduate Ds in one semester, so I'm thinking of having him just work thru a fairly simple trig book this summer and into next fall with Dad.

[Jen S in Va]

With our eldest, who is now studying engineering, we started out with Horizons math in the elementary grades, then went, for brief period of time, to Saxon, but quickly changed to BJUP 6th grade math, skipped the 7th and went directly into the pre-algebra book in 6th grade. Part way through Alg 1 I found out I was pregnant, and we started using BJ LINC classes with him since I knew I wouldn't be able to hang with him in math once he got to geometry in 8th grade. We finished the rotation of BJ LINC classes available in 10th grade with pre-calculus. In 11th he took AP B/C calculus through The Potter's School--really stretched him--excellent prep for his college calculus classes which he is sailing through. Even though he had taken AP calc and could have taken the AP exam, he passed (his decision) on this as he wanted to take calc at the school he is attending because they are tough on their calc students--allowing no calculator use during exams/quizzes. For 12th grade he did what we called an independent study of calculus working his way through the Saxon calculus text using the DIVE cds. At the same time he worked through an applied calculus book using Excel. I don't have the book handy--I think he took it to school with him--so I can't give the title. For this student the LINC classes were a great fit. Not so with my current 10th grade dd.

She went through much the same progression as her brother--just a year behind. We skipped Saxon with her. Once she hit Alg 1 with the LINC classes, it was like she hit a stone wall. We've since switched to Teaching Textbooks for Alg 1, and she is almost finished the TT Alg 2 text and doing very well. I think we'll stay on that course for her.

My first two have really driven home how different each kid is. My 5yo is just about finished with the 4 workbooks of Singapore Earlybird K. He'll be doing 1A/B in the fall.

[CleoQc]

Where does one get the new Dolciani books? I have to start investigating this, for my mathy and future engineer boy.
Thankfully, both parents here are engineers, so algebra doesn't scare us at all.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Where does one get the new Dolciani books? I have to start investigating this, for my mathy and future engineer boy.
Thankfully, both parents here are engineers, so algebra doesn't scare us at all.

Here are the ISBNS: http://www.mcdougallittell.com/store/ProductCatalogController?cmd=Browse&subcmd=LoadDetail&ID=1005500000030772&frontOrBack=F&division=M01&sortProductsBy=SEQ_TITLE&sortEntriesBy=SEQ_NAME

But try half.com, Abebooks or Follett first. You can usually pick them up at a good price. Better still, get a newer edition and a copy of the 1960's or 70's edition for like 3-5 bucks and decide for yourself which sticks with you.

Barb

[CleoQc]

How friendly is this for younger students?
My son is dying to start algebra, and he's finishing the local curriculum for grade 6, but he's only 10yo. To make matters worse, English is his second language, and he's studied math mainly in French so far.
He's done MUS pre-algebra in less than 2 months (and only because I slowed him down!) He devoured it!
I'm not satisfied with MUS though, my son is capable of much more, and will need a solid math background. (I'm not dissing MUS - it's perfect for my daughter)
How difficult is the language and how dense is the text?

[kpupg]

Let me know what's working.

Mostly I have just a plan for high school right now. DS is doing geometry using both NEM and Life of Fred. We use LOF as the spine and splice in the appropriate NEM chapters. This has worked really well for us. For 9th grade, we'll continue the same approach for Algebra II, and for Trig/Pre-Calc in 10th grade. Once he's 16 and ready for Calculus, it will be off to the local (2nd tier) university so someone other than mommy can herd him through it. Worst case, I will teach him Calculus, but I really think he'll benefit from being accountable to someone else :)

Karen

[Laurel-in-CA]

One non-mathy mom + 1 artistic dd = math frustration!

My oldest has done Singapore/MUS in elementary, Lial's BCM, Dolciani (taught by a mathy friend) for Alg. 1 (and got a 19% on the ALEKS assessment, which she brought up to 75% over a summer's hard work), and now Jacobs Geometry. I hoped Jacobs would be a fit, but she's really struggled with it. The plan for next year is Chalkdust Alg. II for her - and Dad's help as needed. And then business math, as she hopes to become a freelance artist/illustrator. BTW, we had a "classic edition" of the Dolciani and I called the publisher and they were able to give me an ISBN for the solutions manual, tho' they no longer sold it, and I found a new copy online. Hope this tip helps someone!!

My son is now (8th) in Lial's Beginning Alg. and doing well mostly self-teaching. His dad "drops in" on the book occasionally to check his work, remind him to write stuff out neatly, etc. We'll probably finish this over the summer and then move on to Chalkdust Geometry.

My 2nd dd (5th) lost most of a year adapting to ADHD meds and we're continuing in Singapore for her, plus Life of Fred for review of what she *should* have gotten last year. Math is a real struggle for her, too, but we perservere.

For my soon-to-be-five-yo, I am getting a range of early math products & see what she likes best!

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Eldest ds is using Thinkwell calculus w/Dr. Burger. He just said today it's the favorite homeschool course he's ever done. He loves it. Prior to this year he's used Saxon. He's an engineering mind who really wants to know the why of everything and Saxon didn't answer that for him. But he can do the math. :) He'll be taking the calc bc exam next year--started Thinkwell in Feb. and will finish it over 9 months, with time left over to go deeper, do lots of prep work, etc. So we'll see how he does!

Younger ds is using Saxon quite happily. Pluggin' and chuggin'. I'm not so happy about that, but pretty scared about venturing out of the math box. However, as dd gets into high school I'll have to. I don't think Saxon will work for her at all. So I'm reading this whole thread with interest.

Julie, I'd really like to hear more about your Thinkwell. What courses are you using? I'd been wondering about using some of the lower levels, but thought MaryM had given some mixed reviews. Further comments?

[Antonia]

My 15yo dd is currently finishing up Teaching Textbooks algebra 1. She will then take the math placement test at our local cc and will hopefully place into college algebra. If so, the rest of math will be at cc. If not, we will do TT algebra 2 at home before trying the placement test again.

[Laurie4b]

We are happy with the Chalkdust program. It uses broadly accepted texts, there is a solution manual available for each course, the DVD instruction is clear, and best of all, Mr. Mosely is very accessible via email if you get stuck. I feel like I bought a math teacher.

I got through teaching Algebra I with my kids, but the fact is that I just don't remember enough higher math to really teach well. Mr. Mosely does teach well. There are no bells and whistles. He is at a chalkboard giving a lecture just like he would be giving in a high school classroom. My kids (one not mathy and the other bound for engineering school if my guess is right) have both done well with Chalkdust. Mr. Mosely will explain stuff via phone that you don't "get" if there is a problem. He will even help the teacher with lesson planning. (Non-math ds would have taken forever to do all the problems. Mr. Mosely provided me with a syllabus that covered what was necessary and sufficient only.)

[Nan in Mass]

Older son:
K-4 in public school with Chicago, a disaster
5 Saxon, but Saxon chopped it up into such little pieces that although he got most of the problems right, he was totally unable to apply his math, scary
6-8 Singapore Primary math 3-6, which "fixed" him so he could think mathematically and apply his math, despite consistently getting half the problems wrong
9 Singapore NEM1 with a pause after chapter 4 to do Keys to Algebra 1-3 because it was "hard remember all those little rules" (as my son put it), still getting half the problems wrong
10 NEM2 Halfway through he placed into pre-calc on the community college placement exams
11 NEM3 This was easier than NEM2. He's been getting 3/4 of the problems right and we managed fine without the solutions guide (which we really needed for the first 2 and don't exist for 3 and 4).
12 Just signed him up for CC pre-calc, since I'm not grading and colleges probably want to see proof that he can do math.

NEM is "interesting". It presents all the algebra very fast at the beginning of the each book, and then you spend the rest of the book practising it with geometry. It does contain some proofs, but not formal ones. It is difficult to make the transition from PM6 to NEM1 if the child hasn't been showing his work in PM. There were some great posts recently about this, if you are interested. NEM1 has a chapter that is helpful for making this transition, provided you recognize it for what it is and use it that way. (I didn't with the first child, although I did eventually make him show his work.) This problem probably doesn't exist in Singapore, where the teachers know what the work is supposed to look like all at each stage. It is important that children be made to think about the problem like the bubble children in PM, and then show their work just like the examples in NEM. Despite these problems, I really like NEM. It teaches how to think.

-Nan

[Karin]

We've made it through Algebra 1. What we love are 2 books. The Dolciani Jane loves so dearly and Gelfand's Algebra that Charon used to recommend on the old boards under his former board name. That said, I would say that Gelfand's lends itself to kids who enjoy the theory part of Algebra.

We did try Jacob's, but dd and I found it boring and Lial's. Honestly, she liked Lial's Introductory Algebra and did fairly well with it. However, IMO, texts that address the theory and thinking behind math tend to lend themselves better to classical education. What I would not recommend in light of Classical Education is Teaching Textbooks.

As for elementary school, my eldest did fine with Saxon, but I found it boring, and my younger two are using Primary Mathematics (aka Singapore Math). We do tweak this, particularly in light of some of Myrtles suggestions, and I'm about to order a new book out that addresses teaching this.

[Karin]

Where does one get the new Dolciani books? I have to start investigating this, for my mathy and future engineer boy.
Thankfully, both parents here are engineers, so algebra doesn't scare us at all.

We bought one used through Amazon. It's hard to say how it would work for your ds at first. Based on the experience of a friend of mine, who learned math first in French from his grandparents, you may wish to give him a transition to get used to doing math in English if you choose this route. He was younger than your ds, but because he was thinking math in French, he didn't always understand the teacher at first despite being bilingual. Once he was able to think math in English, too, he did well.

[pianoplayer]

because my husband was a college math major who is very comfortable with teaching all of our children's high school math, including advanced math concepts. Otherwise, I am quite sure I would be looking 'round for help!

So . . . we do other subjects during the day, and hubby does math at night with the kids individually. It makes for a busy evening for him, but his help in this area is invaluable!

[Nikita]

My 13yo is currently using NSM1 (Singapore) which was his choice after doing Singapore's PM. We do go over the lessons together, and I'm not sure it will be workable all through high school since there's no solutions manual. (I'm not math-phobic, but high school math was a long time ago!) If it's not working, then either we'll hire a tutor to work with him, still using NSM, or switch to Jacob's/Foerster.

I try to expose him to broader math topics through other literature, because he's a big picture kind of kid and while I did very well studying traditional high school math, I discovered a real love for it by reading about other types of math as an adult.

Nikita

[Hoggirl]

We used Saxon through 7/6 and then switched to Chalkdust for Pre-Algebra last year. We are finishing up Algebra I this year, and I have Chalkdust Geometry on the shelf for next year. I cannot overemphasize the terrific level of customer service with this program. Professor Mosely usually responds to e-mails within a couple of hours! We have not had a lot of questions to ask (that will change next year with Geometry ~ I hated it and, as such, have practically no recollection of it AT ALL), but when we do, he has replied quickly and thoroughly. My ds is on the younger and so somewhat accelerated. However, this program has still worked remarkably well for him. The teaching of Professor Mosely on the DVDs is outstanding. I plan to carry on through all the courses available.

[Mama Lynx]

We're not at high school yet, but here are our plans:

My husband excels in math. After I take the kids through Right Start and Singapore 1-6, he takes over. He will tutor them from pre-algebra through calculus, or whatever.

Right now our plan is to use an older (1965) Dolciani algebra text, and to include Euclid with geometry.

[Moira in MA]

For my eldest I've used Jacobs for Algebra I and Geometry, then switched to Foerster for Algebra II and (next year) Precalculus and Trig and presumably Calculus the year after. We switched because Jacobs recommends Foersters texts to follow his.

We have always done math at home, but I took Math at University before becoming a Computer Science Major so there is no math phobia here and outsourcing hasn't been necessary.

My youngest is following the same path. However, since I liked Foerster so much for Algebra II, I took a look at his Algebra I. I decided it was too much, too soon. I also looked at Dolciani but felt it didn't cover the material as interestingly as Jacobs (sorry, Jane in NC).

I really think there are many good ways to cover the material. Once you have found a way that fits, I really think it is consistency that is important. And math, like any other language, needs to be tackled daily for success.

HTH, but can I ask the reason for the question?

[Mommyfaithe]

I'm really curious to learn what math strategies you're all pursuing with your high school students. What program are you using? Or did you go the tutorial route? Or the co-op route...or community college...or online course?

Let me know what's working.

SWB

For my Oldest dd...a Graphic Design Major (Grad next month w/ BA and a 3.8 GPA!) I used Saxon all the way through. She hated it...I hated it...she passed all her college math...done.

DD # 2 same story

Oldest DS We used Saxon through Algebra 1...He caved. We switched to Teaching Textbooks Algebra 2 and he loved it...it took way too long to finish, but he is almost done. I am afraid I've ruined him for life...but I have been know to exagerate....sigh. He is using Life of Fred Geometry and I will probably use Chalkdust SAT Prep Math CD's over the summer and the fall in prep for his SAT.

DS# 2 used Saxon up until Pre- Alg. (1/2) He would literally cry when he saw the book!!! I switched him to Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1 in 7th grade and he is finishing up Algebra 2 (with his older brother...sigh...) this spring.
For the fall I signed him up for Veritas press Scholar's Online Geometry class which used Jacobs. If this works out we will continue with their progression which is Foersters Alg. 2 and then Pre- Calc/ Trig
If it doesn't then I will probably find another Online source for math (or go the CC route.) This son is very science oriented...my older children are all artsy/ jockish....IOW not really math people

For my younger children, I have found BJU math...and we love it! Just the right blend of spiral and mastery...lots of manipulatives work, but not too much...colorful, but not distracting, drill, but not drill and kill...Did I say I love it?? My kids do too!!
I have used grades 1-4 and will continue through until the 8th grade book, where we will then use an online tutorial. I still have a few years before we have to decide for her.

I am not a math-ish Mom...and I go through my yearly rant...cry for help..... I just do not have the time to pursue a higher level of math education for myself right now. I am homeschooling 5 kids, operating my husbands business from home and I like to sleep once in a while....So, even though I would like to know EVERYTHING, I have recognized my limitations and will let the experts teach the math courses. I only wish the better Math books had DVD's with them and full solution manuals.

Oh, as an aside, I have found lots of math lectures on You Tube too

Oh...give me a good book to teach...or a paper to edit....or a painting to stare at....


Good Luck
~~Faithe

[langfam]

For years we had used Saxon exclusively...since K.

DS#1 continues to use Saxon and is now almost finished with Advanced Math. I taught him through Saxon Alg II, but went to the DIVE CD for Adv. Math. We were not happy with it. Sometimes explanations were not clear or Dr. Shorman skipped sections and didn't teach the same examples in the book. Switched over to www.teachingtape.com (http://www.teachingtape.com) The teacher, Paige Singleton, is a certified HS math teacher and really excellent. Her teaching is very clear and concise. Her presentation is neat and easy to follow. She teaches the exact examples in the text. I highly recommend her for Saxon users.
This DS is my mathy one and applies math in his "fun" projects, whatever they might be...computer programming, 3D computer modeling, etc. He probably would have done just as well with any math program

DD used Saxon till Adv. Math 1 (half of book) but I began to notice that although she scored well (96 final score), she had trouble solving problems outside the Saxon text. She had memorized the processes, but had little problem solving ability. This week she completed TT Geometry and made the comment recently that this course has helped her with the geometry questions on the SAT practice tests.

Interestingly, both DS#1 and DD when they took the PSAT last Oct. (and had only completed half the Saxon Adv. Math book at the time), did comparatively poorer on the geometry questions than the algebra questions.

A comment by the math coordinator on forum of Kolbe Academy piqued my interest: that students in their school using the Saxon program might score over 700 (SAT) in all the sections except the math scores dipped into the 500s.

I think for me, I continued to use Saxon because it is easy me to teach and implement. Also, easy for DC to score well on their tests, so I never questioned the program.

It was when my husband's school piloted Saxon for the county that red flags went up for me. He taught 5/4 that year to his 4th graders. Scores for the CRCT were 98 percentile for computation, but 54 percentile for problem solving. The county decided against Saxon.

Testing my own DC, it became clear to me that some could not problem solve well. My mathy kids could, but my non-mathy ones had relied on memorized processes to get the answers, so were never challenged to find new and different ways to problem solve.

I'm not saying that Saxon can never work. I'm only saying that it didn't serve some of my DC well.

DD & DS#1 have been using Chalkdust's SAT Math review. I have been so impressed with Dana Mosely that DD will do his Precalculus course and DS#1 will do his Calculus 1 course next year. DC will take the SAT May 3 so we'll see how they do.....

DS#2 not mathy at all. Hated Saxon Alg 1/2. He's doing Jacob's Elem. Alg this year slowly and not very well. I think he'll benefit from redoing Alg 1, but I haven't decide what. I'm reluctant to use Chalkdust for him because of the college textbook.

DS#3 my gifted one uses Saxon 7/6 supplemented with Singapore. He'll use Lial's BCM next year.

DS#4 uses Horizons with Singapore.

HTHs...this is our experience.

[gardenschooler]

We've had great success with Lial's Introductory Algebra, so we're planning on continuing with it for Intermediate Algebra & Precalculus. I can actually self-teach/refresh myself using the Lial's texts, so that's a big plus for me in not having to spend the money on a video-based program (plus, I can get everything I need for Lial's used for about $20-30, total). Next year, we'll do Jacobs' Geometry before continuing with the Lial's.
For calculus, we'll go with a class. :) I know my limits.

[Katia]

Teaching Textbooks for high school here.

18yo senior this year:
9th - Saxon Algebra I (didn't finish - didn't understand)
10th - Teaching Textbooks Algebra 2
11th - Teaching Textbooks Geometry
12th - Life of Fred Advanced Algebra
Life of Fred Geometry

She didn't have to do the Life of Fred in 12th grade. She wasn't going to do any math, but we found these books and she LOVES them and feels she is finally understanding math.

15yo 10th grader this year:
8th - Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1
9th - Teaching Textbooks Algebra 2
10th - Teaching Textbooks Geometry
Life of Fred Advanced Algebra
Plans for:
11th - Teaching Textbooks Trig/PreCalc (because she likes TT)
Life of Fred Geometry
12th - Life of Fred Trigonometry
Life of Fred Calculus (if she has time)

We are having great success with Teaching Textbooks. Good ACT scores, good PSAT scores (not great, but better than we had ever hoped for), and younger dd is scoring terrific on ITED.

Nice thing is "I" don't have to teach at all; the courses are self-teaching. Wish I had found Life of Fred first. We would have skipped Teaching Textbooks altogether.

[Rebecca in VA]

My son, who is now 17, used VideoText for Algebra I and Algebra II. He tested directly into Pre-Calculus at his classical Christian school in 10th grade. My husband, who has a degree in electrical engineering and is a nuclear-trained engineer for the Navy, thought highly of this program.

I tried to have my daughter, who is 11 and who finished Rod & Staff Math 8 last fall, use VideoText Module A (Prealgebra). However, she was skittish about starting Algebra, and I haven't had time to sit down and work with her this year, so she's going back over 7th grade material using a different program (just for review purposes; we were more than satisfied with what she learned in R&S).

[WTMCassandra]

I'm not quite there yet, but I'm planning to do Professor B Algebra 1 and 2. Inbetween I plan to do Videotext Interactive Geometry. I'm not sure what to do for trig.

[melissaL]

we are using Saxon and are happy with it. we are 1/2 way through algebra 1 with my 14 year old.
MelissaL

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Thanks to all of you. This is fascinating!

SWB

[Jean in Wisc]

For the child that thinks math makes sense, I love the Lial's math series. We used Basic College Mathematics (overview of math from long division through pre-algebra), Introductory Algebra, and Intermediate Algebra. The paper back books have a better format than the hard back books (practice problems in the sidebar).

I used Jacob's geometry with my oldest child. She did O.K. with it, but thought it hard to use after the logical setup of Lial's books. If I could do it over, we'd stay with Lial's for geometry, but since I had a copy of Jacob's Geometry on hand, we chose to use that.

For the child who sees all math as a foreign language, Lial's books have worked well only if I sit with the child each day and do the lessons with him (BCM and Intro). Since we are running out of time (he will be 21 before he sees pre-calc at this rate), we moved to Teaching Textbooks for Geometry this year. It is not a program I would give a mathy kid...but it is wonderful for the child who struggles!

[ksva]

We've done mostly Saxon through the years. I call it 'the best of the worst'. But I've seen the same things others have said - the inability to do problems outside the Saxon books, etc. So we're totally revamping our math curr. 19yod and 17yod are halfway through NEM1 and Frank Allen's Alg. 1 books. I'm really surprised at how quickly they 'get' this stuff and how easy it is for them. I'm thinking it's because they've finished several logic books (Intro, Intermediate, TL1 and TL2 and Isaac Watts book and I don't know what else) and because they're older. I took alg in 8th grade, made straight A's, and didn't have a clue what was going on. Used to go home every night and get my father to help me do my homework (he was a terrible teacher).

I also continue to drill them from the R & S books, because they do such downright practical and fun stuff that I don't see anywhere else. Stuff I never got from ANY math program (went through Calculus in college). And the books are so orderly and concise. Something I love in a math book. We also do a little from a book called "Arithmetic Refresher" by Klaf every day.

15yod is a few lessons shy of finishing Saxon 87 and then she'll be doing same as her sisters - following Charon's general plan.

I'm even thinking of having older ds's do some of the books dd's will be doing. They're finishing up Saxon's Adv. Math and doing Calculus and Physics with their dad.

It's a mess. But I'm hoping that Charon's plan will do for math (and logic) what you (SWB) have done for the hist and lang. arts area.

Thanks Susan.

KathyP

[ksva]

Copy them. That's what I finally had to do for several of them. I get them via interlibrary loan and sit and copy them. We own a decent copier so I do this at home. Tedious, but worth it.

[Cheryl B in VA]

DS is finishing 10th grade and this is what he has done and is planning to do:

Algebra 1 in 6th grade using Videotext

Algebra 2 in 8th grade using Teaching Textbooks (we skipped a year on many subjects and unschooled because he was so far ahead)

Geometry at the public school. Interesting note: He had to take the SOLs for Algebra 1 & 2. He passed BUT there were a few math topics on the test that were not covered yet in TT. These topics are taught eventually in TT but later than our public school teaches them.

Son came back home this year and we tried doing precalculus using the Chalkdust textbook and Dr. Burger's lectures (Thinkwell) through Hotmath. It didn't work. DS needs to do the higher level math in a classroom setting with a teacher that knows how to do it. (My highest math was Trig/Math Analysis and I got Cs and Ds.)

For next year son is requesting to take his math class at the local public school. Homeschoolers can take up to two classes at the PS. This is not my first choice - I gave him many options. His choices were:
public school, community college, homeschool class of precalc (meets twice a week), online class, Teaching Textbooks.

Second DS starts Algebra 1 next year. I have not yet settled on what will be the right curriculum for him.

[Sandy in Indy]

DS has done TT Alg 1 and 2, Chalkdust Geometry (which he thoroughly disliked) and is currently working on TT Pre-calc. I think we will use Ask Dr. Callahan's Calculus course. (Mom here is NOT math-inclined and we just don't have the $$ for tutors or college courses. Unlike other enlightened states, IN really doesn't have a community college system--Ivy Tech would be the closest thing. And there's no tuition break for high school students.)

DS has taken the SAT once and got a respectable score. He's studying for a second sitting, using Chalkdust SAT Math Review (again).

[HS mom]

My daughter is good with math; picks up concepts and integrates them quickly. In fact, I'd encourage her in a math field- the bump in that road is that she doesn't much enjoy it. She loves writing, history, biology, music, and dance. So when we reached high school level, we went with Math U See rather than the NEM (Singapore Math) we started with. I enjoyed Singapore; she did too. It's clearly written and teaches and explains concepts better than anything else I've seen. The problems are interesting. But there is a lot of math involved. It's overkill for my daughter. She's learned it, it's cemented in her mind- she wants to move on. Math U See fit her style and goals perfectly. It's a good and thorough program if she decides to pursue a field in science. She doesn't have to spend long parts of her day on math problems, but can put her energy and time into the subjects and interests she wants to explore.

[CLHCO]

We did a couple years of Singapore, quite a few of Saxon, supplemented with other popular things at the time, then settled on Math U See.

I put off that one for a long time due to the cost but now I think I'd have saved in the long run. My daughters have always struggled in math. It finally clicked with Math U See and we will stick with it.

I personally like Singapore for my style of teaching/learning. Saxon seemed like it would work better for them due to the repetition, which they needed. However, I now think Math U See is worth every penny for a child who really struggles in math, though I don't look at it as superior overall.

My goal is to prepare them for taking college Algebra at our local community college. I haven't figured out yet what level of Math U See they'll need to be ready for that. If I can get them college credit for it I'll then probably let them drop math, other than a consumer math program, depending on their future goals and needs.

[langfam]

The reason why DS#2 hated Saxon Alg.1/2 was that he couldn't work with the incremental method, namely the unsystematic way of jumping from topic to topic. This DC could not see how one concept connected to the other. It was like a big puzzle that he couldn't put together.

Alg 1/2 came to a crashing halt around the lessons in the 50s when percent, ratio and proportion were introduced. At this point, I had to stop and teach those topics separately, so he could see the whole picture. Only then could we move on.

Another thing this DC had trouble with was the large complex computations in certain problems. I think it was questions that covered perimeter/area/volume. He would get so caught up in computations (no calculator allowed for Alg. 1/2) that he would lose sight of the concept he was supposed to be learning.

He did learn signed numbers very well from this text though.

Again, I want to say that this is just my perspective for this child.

[ksva]

We are also reading aloud history of math books (from our encyclopedias, Smith, Cajori, etc.). We spend about 15 min on it at some point during our group math time. We'll insert a primary source at the point at which it comes in the math hist. bk. They summarize and insert it into their math notebooks. We'll also do bio's when we can find good ones. They do this in all their other subjects, why should math be any different.

They were reading the math hist. books by themselves, but getting bogged down in the detailed math which is inserted every so often. So we are now reading it together and stopping more often.

We also have plenty of other math books around to cross-reference a topic, find extra problems, etc. I figure we've spent so many years emphasizing lang. arts type things (grammar, writing, history, etc.), maybe it's time to do the same for math. WTM it.

Finally going home (after a disastrous computer day).

Thanks again Susan,
Kathy P

[djkapp]

I'm new to this board so I probably don't have much new insight, but here is our experience so far. We are in the early stages of high school (9th, 10th). So far I've tried Teaching Textbooks for AlgebraI and Algebra II-- definitely not satisfied with them as an option for college-bound, math-bright students. Currently my two older daughters are using Jacob's Geometry. I like it very much and find that it is quite challenging but also approachable enough that they can understand the lessons.
My 8th grade daughter has tried several algebra programs, but we have ended up going back to Saxon for her. She simply needs the extra drill and continual reinforcement and review that the Saxon approach provides. Next year, I'm planning to move to the Lial's algebra books -- Introductory for my son, Intermediate for my 10th grader, and college algebra w/trig for my oldest. We'll see!

[Charon]

We are also reading aloud history of math books (from our encyclopedias, Smith, Cajori, etc.). We spend about 15 min on it at some point during our group math time. We'll insert a primary source at the point at which it comes in the math hist. bk. They summarize and insert it into their math notebooks. We'll also do bio's when we can find good ones. They do this in all their other subjects, why should math be any different.

They were reading the math hist. books by themselves, but getting bogged down in the detailed math which is inserted every so often. So we are now reading it together and stopping more often.

We also have plenty of other math books around to cross-reference a topic, find extra problems, etc. I figure we've spent so many years emphasizing lang. arts type things (grammar, writing, history, etc.), maybe it's time to do the same for math. WTM it.

Finally going home (after a disastrous computer day).

Thanks again Susan,
Kathy P


Incidentally, this would not be the first time someone has said that math should include a little more math history. I had no idea who Cajori was until Myrtle turned me on to him. That is a miscarriage of justice! ;oP Cajori is a good read when it comes to math education and math in general -- it is both relevant and important to this very day. I wish I had time to read more of that guy. Math isn't supposed to be some cult like it is these days. It is supposed to be transparent. And, I think the lack of history is one key ingredient that enables the mystics to obfuscate what math is and has always consistently been for longer than even the classics have existed. Most highly trained mathematicians are woefully ignorant of even the last 50 years of math education or even mathematics! Even people out of Princeton or MIT often just know the current state of mathematics. Professors at Princeton or MIT just know how it all happened during their career as a mathematician. In philosophy, by contrast, the History of Ideas is just as prominent as the Problems of Philosophy.

We all, especially mathematicians, need to stop taking this for granted. There is more to math than just the next big theorem. But a million dollars (http://www.claymath.org/millennium/) for anything from P vs NP to real progress on Navier Stokes Equations is a hard thing to resist. Unfortunately, no one is there to tie Odysseus to the mast....

[Kareni]

For calculus, we'll go with a class. :) I know my limits.

This made me chuckle! Math humor (intentional or not).

Regards,
Kareni

[gardenschooler]

This made me chuckle! Math humor (intentional or not).

Regards,
Kareni

ROFLOL. It wasn't intentional, but I get it now. Hey, I do know calculus! :lol:

[Beth in SW WA]

We are happy with the Chalkdust program. It uses broadly accepted texts, there is a solution manual available for each course, the DVD instruction is clear, and best of all, Mr. Mosely is very accessible via email if you get stuck. I feel like I bought a math teacher.

CD is our plan also. Prof. Mosely is wonderful. DS 12 is doing fantastic w/ PreAlg. Starting Alg 1 this summer. Expensive program -- but -- you can buy the program used on the board here. I just bought Alg 1 for $200 (retail $356). It is worth every penny for this non-mathy mom :)

[nestof3]

My 18 year old used Saxon from 5th through 10th. He finished Saxon with Algebra II/Trig. He was able to use just the book until Alg II. I thought it would be best to use the Dive CD, and it was perfect! He did really well.

Because he learned most of geometry through Saxon, I let that count toward his Geometry. He also completed the Teaching Company's Geometry course which deals with proofs. I administered our state's end of the year Geometry test as well.

For 12th grade, he took Business Math using:
Math160(Twelfth grade) Business Math (Landmark’s Freedom Baptist Curriculum)
We thought it would be better for him to take this course since he was considering being self-employed, and even if he does not pursue that route, he is most definitely not science or math-minded. He is a lover of history.

[Karin]

We are also reading aloud history of math books (from our encyclopedias, Smith, Cajori, etc.).
Thanks again Susan,
Kathy P

I've been planning to weave the history of math and science into next year's curriculum for some time. Could you give me some titles? Cajori would be fairly easy to research, but could you give me the full name of Smith? Or titles would be great.

[Jane in NC]

I've been planning to weave the history of math and science into next year's curriculum for some time. Could you give me some titles? Cajori would be fairly easy to research, but could you give me the full name of Smith? Or titles would be great.

When I studied History of Mathematics as an undergraduate, I used a number of books including Carl Boyer's History of Mathematics. Bell's Men of Mathematics is usually easy to find and is easier to read, but I am not sure if it is completely accurate.


Here (http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/textbooks.html) is a much longer list of titles.

Jane

[Karin]

When I studied History of Mathematics as an undergraduate, I used a number of books including Carl Boyer's History of Mathematics. Bell's Men of Mathematics is usually easy to find and is easier to read, but I am not sure if it is completely accurate.


Here (http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/textbooks.html) is a much longer list of titles.

Jane

Thanks--I think;)! There are just so many titles there I'm momentarily overwhelmed! But I noticed some history of science ones. I just found Cajori in our library networks, so I'll look for the Boyer one, and perhaps some more. One of my favourite university courses was called The History of Science.

Edited to add--I just put a hold on the Boyer.

[oakmom]

Has anyone used the Living Math Plans from www.livingmath.net These look interesting.

[Rebecca in TN]

Math-U-See was what worked best for my daughter. We used Intermediate through Alg. 2. She struggles in math. MUS offered a slower pace and uncluttered pages (as another poster wrote).

[Mom to Many]

We're using Jacob's now for Algebra and Geometry. We may go the dual-enrollment route for higher maths -- not sure yet with this student.

[HollyinNNV]

We have used Chalkdust Pre-Algebra and Algebra I for middle school. The plan is to continue on with Chalkdust Geometry, Algebra II, SAT prep and Trig. I'm not sure we'll get to Calculus-maybe 1/2 a year.

Holly

[transientChris]

For my son, who went on to college with a humanities major_

Algebra- EPGY
Geometry- Jacobs
Alg2/Trig- Foersters then Dolciani
Pre-Calc- Saxon Advanced Math latter half
We did all of the teaching ourselves, I did most, bit some of the trig was taught by my husband. He later did Calculus in college.

DD, 14
Pre-Algebra- Saxon Algebra 1/2
Algebra- Jacobs
Geometry- partly Jacobs, partly ALEKS
will continue with Chalkdust

Since my dh and I both have math oriented degrees (DH is PhD physicist), we don't need tutors but we will use Chalkdust for time related reasons.

[Amy in NH]

We used Miquon for K-2. After we finished that program we started Singapore with a review using set 3, then working through sets 4-6.

Oldest ds finished them quickly, so we supplemented with Key To Fractions and Decimals sets in between Singapore sets. We started him in Jacob's Algebra at the beginning of this year (7th grade), but he got stuck when we got to Rate Problems. We decided to scrap Jacob's and back up, and he started Algebra over again in December using a Dolciani book that I picked up used on Amazon based on a suggestion here. He has been much more successful with the Dolciani, which is written the way I learned Algebra. (Did I mention that I love Algebra?)

When he finishes Algebra I, we are planning to use Jacob's Geometry with Dr. Callahan's DVD. I am hoping that will work. If it doesn't, I'm going to have to do a bit of scrambling again. We can't afford an expensive program like Chalkdust, so we'll see!

I forgot to add that ds13 has also read & enjoyed Mathematicians are People Too, volumes 1 & 2.

DS10 is a lazy child who doesn't want to learn anything. We have come to an understanding this year, and he is currently working through Life of Fred Fractions. He could be doing a lot more, but chooses not to. :(

[Carolyn in Ohio]

Chalkdust for Pre-Algebra and Algebra, Teaching company DVD's plus extra workbooks for geometry. I plan to go back to Chalkdust for Algebra II and on. I figured I remembered enough geometry to try a cheaper route this year.

If we get as far as Calculus, the community college.

Carolyn

[Sylvia in CA]

Our plan is


Teaching Textbooks through Pre-Calc
comm college for 11th and 12th grade

My dd did Trig, Pre-Calc, Calc 1 and 2 at cc for her 11th and 12th grade.

Community college route has really worked for us.

Sylvia

[Jenny in Florida]

My daughter, who has graduated and is off to college this year, did most of her high school math through the Florida Virtual School. It seems to have served her well. She's not a math-y type, but still did quite well in College Algebra this fall.

My son, who is now 10, is also doing math online. He is a math-y type, and I am not, so it is difficult for us to work on that subject together. He has already finished Florida Virtual School's middle school math sequence and is now working (slowly) through the University of California College Prep open access algebra class. Currently, the plan is for him to finish that next academic year, then go back to FLVS for geometry.

[Heather in VA]

I'm really curious to learn what math strategies you're all pursuing with your high school students. What program are you using? Or did you go the tutorial route? Or the co-op route...or community college...or online course?

Let me know what's working.

SWB

Absolutely I recommend VideoText. It's excellent and works well with mathy people and non-mathy people alike. I'm a math major myself but my oldest who is currently using this program wants to be a history major. But she's doing very well, understanding the material and feeling more and more confident about her math abilities. Being able to do that without sacrificing the quality of the program is a rare thing.

Heather

[Sharon in SC]

Currently using Saxon Alg 1 with plans to stick with it through Calculus using the DIVE CDs as needed. Dh and I both like Math so teaching this subject at home, so far, has not been a problem. :-)

[attachedto4]

My son will continue with MUS for highschool. He is not a mathy person and he does very well with it. My dh is very solid in math, so he does the lessons with ds. I'm not worried about any perceived shortcomings with MUS for highschool, since my dh can easily fill all that in himself.

[SallyMac]

My ds is now a junior.

9th - He used Dolciani Algebra I at the boys prep school. This was a good, solid text, but not a perfect fit for ds. However, he should have been doing Alg II or Geometry for 9th, but he didnt do well on the math section of the entrance exam. He was not alone, however, as a high percentage of boys who had already gotten As in their 8th grade Alg I class also did poorly on the math section and were made to take it over again in 9th.

10th - On the recommendations of a local homeschool mom, ds used Teaching Textbooks Geometry. At the time I was post-op/recovering from major surgery for a cancerous tumor, so TT was ideal. Ds loved it, and I am not a math person, so I appreciated the support. He did lots of proofs (and enjoyed it), and I felt he had a good preparation for this after two years of Singapore Math. He finds the geometry problems in Lial Intermediate Algebra easy, so I know it was effective.

11th - Lial Intermediate Algebra which is working for us. DS always understands the concepts thanks to the great explanations. He seems to be retaining it as there are so many problems to work. It was a great choice, and if I had to do it over again, I would have done Lial Intro Algebra.

12th - next year he will probably be taking trigonometry at the public school, but I dont know what book they use and am afraid to find out. He will be a full time student there (for the experience and the diploma). It is a small school, but I cant imagine why they do not offer pre-calculus. I was already disappointed that he didnt make it to calculus by senior year. Now I am further disappointed that he will be taking trig for his senior year math.

[LunaLee]

Definately co-op/cc for anything past pre-algebra. That's about as far as my math cells will take me.

[Laura R (FL)]

I'm a little behind, but wanted to post because we're doing something a bit different.

I used Chalkdust Pre-Algebra for 7th grade, finished Chalkdust and did the end of TT Pre-Alg for 8th grade, and then we're using Florida Virtual School for Alg I. I didn't see anyone else posting an on-line source for hs math, so I thought I'd add my little ol' $.02! :D

[Cathy]

Miquon math lab sheets for kidlets--so they learn how to "go figure." :)
100's sheets for skip counting and pre-multiplication.
Triangle Flashcards.

Saxon 54, 65, 76, 87, 1/2, Algebra 1, 2, and Advanced Math--as per Dr. Arthur Robinson's method--self-taught. There truly IS enough in the books to help kids learn the concepts! :D

Our 22 yo taught herself through calculus. I bought the DIVE CDs "just in case" she needed it. She looked at 1-2 lessons of Adv. Math. The calculus DIVE is still sealed. She basically figured it out--she learned how to use Table of Contents, index, previous lessons--how to study.

DS, 14, is doing Algebra 2. DD isn't too far behind.

Cathy

[Blue Hen]

As head proselytizer for the old Dolciani texts (not a family member who is in the royalty loop, but a believer, mind you), I will again argue the case for these books which were published in the '60's and '70's. They are solid in their development of the subject material. Many students who have parents participating in these boards use them independently (unless they have an enthusiastic mother peering over their shoulder who is compelled to point out something quite interesting in the material). The books introduce students to proofs. This is critical because many texts treat mathematics as algorithm after algorithm, without explaining the whys or connecting any dots along the way.

A student who works his way through Algebra I and Algebra II/Trig will see most of the material in a modern precalculus text. ......

Disadvantage: solutions manuals and teacher's books for these old editions are hard to find, albeit not impossible.

Jane

Hey Jane, I thought I was the head proselytizer for the old Dolciani texts! :lol: And while I don't have the solution manuals and teacher books, going through and doing all the problems before my DS is just helping me keep a Well Educated Mind in math. Plus I find doing math problems much more fun than sitting down with a novel.

I'm with Jane on using these old Dolciani texts, and in fact, I did a double-back-flip when I found my old high school text at a used book sale for 25-cents. Well, not really on finding the exact book I used, but the same edition as the one I had used.

I've taken one most of the way through so far and we started off with NEM 1-3, AND Dociani Alg 1 and Alg 2 w/ trig texts. This year he went through Foerster's Pre-Calc and it has been all review; a rather easy year in math for him. Next year he will go through Foerster's Calculus book and take either the AB or BC AP Calculus test.

[Patty Joanna]

I don't know the materials as well as I should, because we are going the DH Tutorial Route. DH is MathMan, and a much better teacher than I. DS is using MUS Algebra right now, grade 7. The plan, with whatever materials, is Algebra and Euclidean Geometry grades 8-9. Algebra II grade 10. Euclidean Geometry II Grade 11. Trig and possibly calculus in Grade 12. He is very focused on strong foundation as opposed to quick progression, so if calculus drops off, so be it. He has had conversations with many math professors and combining this with his own experience, he believes that solid understanding, at the gut level, of functions is much more important than having HS-level Calculus.

That's my 2cents contribution, which is being overly generous given what I really have to offer.

[teachmom3]

:)

The two older kids used UCSMP from Transition Math (pre-algebra)
into Statistics, Functions and Trigonometry with the eldest (who had health problems and so didn't get as far as he should have), and
almost all the way through Precalculus (UCSMP's Precalculus gets through precalculus plus about half of what is in Chalkdust's Calculus) with Child #2.The oldest currently tutors math while in college, and Child #2 scored high enough on the SAT to get a full-ride academic scholarship to the University of California. So, although UCSMP sometimes gets ragged on, it worked well enough here.

That being said, I didn't think UCSMP would be a good fit for my youngest after algebra. Therefore, he's done UCSMP Transition Math and Algebra, but is currently in Jacob's 2nd edition Geometry. I'm currently in the midst of obsessing whether to use Foerster, Chalkdust (Larson), or Lial with him for Algebra 2. I've worked several lessons in Forester and Larson, and so far like Larson a little better. (I'm referring to the texts alone, without the videos.) I'm waiting for Lial to arrive so that I can try it.

My two older ones were largely self-taught, coming to me only when they got stuck. In contrast, I've had to spend more time teaching Child #3. I'll probably be okay through algebra 2, but since my calculus days were almost 3-1/2 decades ago, I'll probably be spending this spring and summer trying to (re-)teach myself trig and calculus.

Actually, I'm kind of looking forward to it. . . .maybe a little.

[Sharon in SC]

Cathy,
Would you mind sharing how your 22yo did with standardized testing having used Saxon? My older is self teaching herself just as you've described your dd did and I'd love to hear how that served your dd in the long run. Please forgive me and feel free to ignore this request if you feel I've overstepped the proverbial boundary! Many thanks! Sharon