Guns? In the library?

[Kelli in TN]

Last night the kids and I stopped at the library on our way to church. As we were going in I noticed a new sign in the window, banning guns on the premises. I thought "Hm, that's odd" but assumed that it was perhaps a new thing from the police dept or something like that. Tennessee allows for concealed weapons as long as the person has a permit.

Then I opened the paper this morning and there is an article on the front page about the sign.

According to the paper
(Librarian), who manages the library's north branch, said library officials decided to put up the signs after a frequent patron asked her if he could bring his gun inside.

The patron has a permit to carry a gun but left the gun in his car, she said.

"He said, 'Is this something I should not do later on?'" (Librarian) said.

(Librarian) said she contacted Jackson police about state law. Police advised her to post the signs.

"It's one of those weird things that came up," (Librarian) said. "I haven't noticed anybody carrying."

I don't know. I have mixed feelings. A person bent on violence is not going to stop and say "Hey, I can't do my shoot up in here, look at the sign, it is prohibited." and go home. If a crazy decided to shoot up the library the day I am there, I might be grateful if there were an armed sane person there that day too. On the other hand the whole idea of concealed weapons out and about where there are children sort of freaks me out. But I did not grow up around guns and they sort of freak me out in general.

What say you on this rainy, nasty Thursday morning?

[st_claire]

I think its a good idea. What if someone's gun falls out and a kid picks it up? I support people's right to have guns if they want to, but I also don't see why you would want to carry one around with you on a day to day basis. I think it puts you more at risk.

[StacyWithFourRugrats]

so I would be very happy to see the sign. As mentioned, what if the gun fell on the floor (most likely wouldn't happen, but still) and a kid got hold of it? What kind of impact would a gun have on children (it is a library and they are frequented by a lot of children)?

I personally am against guns, though many times I have thought it would be nice to learn how to shoot one. I would never want to own one though.

If we start living in fear of a gun-toting pyschpath around every corner (or in every library), everyone will end up carrying guns and that would be even scarier. A library should not be a place for guns really.

[Rhonda in TX]

We have a concealed carry law (with permit) here in Texas, too. Gee, I be that's a big surprise. :D

If someone has the permit, I'm not sure why a library should be off limits. Like you said, somebody with evil intentions is not going to pay attention to the sign. And, if someone has the permit, they should know how to carry the weapon in such a way as to not allow it to be seen and taken by anyone, child or adult.

That said, I think our library has the same rule. It doesn't keep me awake at night.

[Kelli in TN]

That said, I think our library has the same rule. It doesn't keep me awake at night.

It doesn't keep me awake at night either. It never occured to me that someone would expect to be allowed to carry a gun into a library. I never thought it about it one way or the other. It never occurred to me that the library would need to post a sign, I would just think people would automatically leave their gun at home when going to check out books!

[Kelli in TN]

I think its a good idea. What if someone's gun falls out and a kid picks it up? I support people's right to have guns if they want to, but I also don't see why you would want to carry one around with you on a day to day basis. I think it puts you more at risk.

I kind of thought that too. I thought of all sorts of scenarios where the gun just "goes off" or is dropped.

But I don't know if that is realistic or just the result of not growing up around guns and watching too much Barney Fife.

[Diana in OR]

It may be different in your state, but I'm pretty sure this is the case anywhere. If someone has a concealed carry permit, their right to carry is protected by the U.S. Constitution. The only exceptions I know of are Federal buildings and Airlines.

Other public buildings/agencies (including schools) may have a no-gun policy, but it goes against the Constitution and would likely not be upheld in court.

[Btw, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that, but that's the way it is here in OR.]

[Danestress]

For what it's worth.

The idea of a random shooting spree is so scary and in the rare event it happened, I'd be glad someone had a gun to stop it.

But the far more likely scenario, I believe, is that someone is committing a less violent crime, and a guy with a gun decides to be a "hero" and puts us all at risk. I don't want someone defending the Starbuck's tip jar with a weapon as I am in there drinking my latte. Let them have the dang tip jar! It's just too risky. Or the pair of sneakers. Let him steal the books or smack his wife or whatever - I don't want guns as the front line of defense, because I think they escalate crimes into tragedies. And I don't want the average person packing heat to "protect" patrons from crimes because most crimes I just assume happen and be done with, without the use of firearms. MOST crimes don't result in shootings, even when the perpetrator is armed.

[PiCO]

(First of all, please note that I fully support the library's right to ban guns if they so desire.)

People have to jump through a lot of hoops to get a concealed carry permit (at least here in Colorado.) It's not like a driver's license where pretty much anyone can apply and get one. You have to take safety courses and demonstrate that you know how to properly handle a gun.

I don't think someone's concealed gun is going to "fall out on the library floor" where a child will then be able to pick it up. But- I also think someone wanting to do a "shoot-em-up" type shooting spree is extremely unlikely to pick a library to shoot up, when there are shopping malls and such available.

Now, if a shopping mall had a "no guns allowed" sign- I'm not sure I would support that. Someone planning to commit a crime would be more likely to go to the mall where law-abiding citizens would not be able to defend themselves. (I'm not talking about someone stealing the tip jar at starbucks, I'm talking about a shooting spree.) I'm sure glad that security guard at the church in Colorado Springs was armed, but I am more comfortable with citizens with concealed carry permits at malls than I would be with "Mall Security" being armed. I've worked in a mall.

[CookieMonster]

I don't know. I have mixed feelings. A person bent on violence is not going to stop and say "Hey, I can't do my shoot up in here, look at the sign, it is prohibited." and go home. If a crazy decided to shoot up the library the day I am there, I might be grateful if there were an armed sane person there that day too. On the other hand the whole idea of concealed weapons out and about where there are children sort of freaks me out. But I did not grow up around guns and they sort of freak me out in general.

:iagree:

I have to add, though, that the more gun-toting people I meet, the more comfortable I am with the idea.

[Martha]

I think the librarian is in the wrong.
Most notably it's not their library - it's a public domain.

2nd as noted previously this doesn't stop nuts from comming in with guns and I'd rather have a permit carrying relatively sane gun carrier allowed than not to keep the fight against the nuts a fighting chane at winning.

Experienced gun carriers do not "drop their gun" and if they did, they'd certainly notice it before a kid picked it up, and if they didn't the safety would/should be on anyways to prevent instant accidents. I'll wager the odds of the above failing to prevent accidently public tragedy is lower than the odds of a nut with a gun causing tragedy in a public setting.

Lastly, I think an unattended gun left in the vehicle because it can't be brought in is far more likely to be stolen and then used for murderous purposed than for a certified permit holding gun carrier who has it on his possession is going to snap and use it to kill people.

so there's my opinion.
and I don't even own a gun
yet.:D

[dangermom]

Now, if a shopping mall had a "no guns allowed" sign- I'm not sure I would support that. Someone planning to commit a crime would be more likely to go to the mall where law-abiding citizens would not be able to defend themselves. (I'm not talking about someone stealing the tip jar at starbucks, I'm talking about a shooting spree.) Just as a side note: public libraries are public places that don't cost anything, and that means that libraries deal with a relatively high percentage of people with various types of mental problems. It is an unfortunate fact that librarians, who tend to be quiet, have to be able to deal with aggressive patrons who do turn nasty every once in a while. I've never heard of anyone going on a shooting spree in a library--but it would not surprise me at all.

Responsible gun carriers don't let their guns fall out, and they keep the safety locks on. While I'm not thrilled with the idea of people having guns in the library, the fact is that the sane, responsible people with guns should outnumber the criminals with guns. My husband carries for that reason, though of course he hopes that he will never use it. I don't really like any of it, but that's reality and I respect his convictions.

[wagnfun]

(First of all, please note that I fully support the library's right to ban guns if they so desire.)

People have to jump through a lot of hoops to get a concealed carry permit (at least here in Colorado.) It's not like a driver's license where pretty much anyone can apply and get one. You have to take safety courses and demonstrate that you know how to properly handle a gun.

I don't think someone's concealed gun is going to "fall out on the library floor" where a child will then be able to pick it up. But- I also think someone wanting to do a "shoot-em-up" type shooting spree is extremely unlikely to pick a library to shoot up, when there are shopping malls and such available.

Now, if a shopping mall had a "no guns allowed" sign- I'm not sure I would support that. Someone planning to commit a crime would be more likely to go to the mall where law-abiding citizens would not be able to defend themselves. (I'm not talking about someone stealing the tip jar at starbucks, I'm talking about a shooting spree.) I'm sure glad that security guard at the church in Colorado Springs was armed, but I am more comfortable with citizens with concealed carry permits at malls than I would be with "Mall Security" being armed. I've worked in a mall.

:iagree: In California you have to take a few tests & classes and even then it is not a for sure thing to get a permit. Although I'd bet cash or cookies that you'd never guess it if you met me IRL, I have a permit to carry. When testing for my permit I was very surprised at the people in the class with me. There were professionals, grandmas and young married couples. I bet many would be shocked to find your cashier at the local grocery store or that man at the gas pump by yours also carries. I was raised by a gun toting grandfather and married into a active in the NRA family. My children are all trained to understand gun safety and practice shooting for fun (no reason to flame me please, we follow all laws & safely rules for kids w/guns). There are certain laws such as you can not carry in court, in a post office or a law trying to get past now- within 1000 feet of a school. I'm not suprised to hear they are not allowed in a library.

[Krista in LA]

I think its a good idea. What if someone's gun falls out and a kid picks it up? I support people's right to have guns if they want to, but I also don't see why you would want to carry one around with you on a day to day basis. I think it puts you more at risk.

Let me just say that if someone is legally carrying a concealed weapon, it is secured and not going to just fall out. The people I know who have CCW permit take safety very seriously, that's why they have a permit. I don't even see how it's possible for my gun to just fall out. And, carrying does not put me more at risk as long as I use my training.

[Krista in LA]

It may be different in your state, but I'm pretty sure this is the case anywhere. If someone has a concealed carry permit, their right to carry is protected by the U.S. Constitution. The only exceptions I know of are Federal buildings and Airlines.

Other public buildings/agencies (including schools) may have a no-gun policy, but it goes against the Constitution and would likely not be upheld in court.


It's a felony to carry a gun into a school (unless you are law enforcement). I'm pretty sure that's a federal thing and not just my state.

[Krista in LA]

But the far more likely scenario, I believe, is that someone is committing a less violent crime, and a guy with a gun decides to be a "hero" and puts us all at risk. I don't want someone defending the Starbuck's tip jar with a weapon as I am in there drinking my latte. Let them have the dang tip jar! It's just too risky. Or the pair of sneakers. Let him steal the books or smack his wife or whatever - I don't want guns as the front line of defense, because I think they escalate crimes into tragedies. And I don't want the average person packing heat to "protect" patrons from crimes because most crimes I just assume happen and be done with, without the use of firearms. MOST crimes don't result in shootings, even when the perpetrator is armed.

In Louisiana, we are required to take a class before we can get a permit and I know it's like that in many other states too. In the classes they teach when one is allowed to use a gun and under no circumstances should it be used to protect property. A gun is only to be used when you are fearing for your life. They even advised us not to use it when it looks obvious that someone else's life is in danger because you never know the exact circumstance. Of course someone shooting in a mall would be a scenario when you might use it, but you would never pull it out until you were actually in a position to take a shot.

[awanama]

I wanted to post this link because it relates so well to the topic. It is about a Pizza Hut driver that carried a gun even though it was against Pizza Hut's policy. It saved his life. We personally know this man because he is a customer of my husbands. He is a single father and has been working for Pizza Hut for many years.

http://www.kcci.com/news/15730808/detail.html
http://www.kcci.com/news/15773640/detail.html

[pixelroper]

I think the librarian is in the wrong.
Most notably it's not their library - it's a public domain.

2nd as noted previously this doesn't stop nuts from comming in with guns and I'd rather have a permit carrying relatively sane gun carrier allowed than not to keep the fight against the nuts a fighting chane at winning.

Experienced gun carriers do not "drop their gun" and if they did, they'd certainly notice it before a kid picked it up, and if they didn't the safety would/should be on anyways to prevent instant accidents. I'll wager the odds of the above failing to prevent accidently public tragedy is lower than the odds of a nut with a gun causing tragedy in a public setting.

Lastly, I think an unattended gun left in the vehicle because it can't be brought in is far more likely to be stolen and then used for murderous purposed than for a certified permit holding gun carrier who has it on his possession is going to snap and use it to kill people.

so there's my opinion.
and I don't even own a gun
yet.:D

:iagree: those people intent on breaking the law, break the law. That is the problem. A sign won't stop them. Further more, a sign shouldn't stop someone who is legally carrying a concealed weapon and understand their local laws. It is concealed--how is anyone going to know?? I'd rather see a sign banning cell phones from the library:D

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

Both my husband and I have concealed weapons permits. My dh carries more often than I do. You wouldn't know we carry (that's why is called CONCEALED). JHMO, but I think it would be better for criminals to assume that you are armed.
A sign that forbids law-abiding citizens to carry, is a sign to the criminal element that they have free reign. I avoid any malls that forbid cw permit holders to carry. I don't feel safe in them.

[Danestress]

but you would never pull it out until you were actually in a position to take a shot.

It's great they say that in class. But I don't really trust what people will do under pressure, because I have seen people do really stupid things when they were scared, and I don't think X number of class hours will necessary change that. So for me personally, since we were asked our opinions, I personally feel safer without people being able to take a class and carry a weapon into places like libraries. I realize that the law isn't going to be based on what I want though.

[Peek a Boo]

a couple sides to this:

yes, there have been shootings in libraries. google is great, lol.

yes, there have been instances of guns being discharged due to negligence by the carrier:
http://www.ohiovalleypolitics.com/2007/12/12/the-dangers-of-concealed-carry-permits/

The comments in the link above supporting carrying pretty much sum up my view on carrying.

I tend to agree w/ Nick's Mama- Z'sMT [[were you armed when we met up? ;P]] about my first thoughts when i see those signs. Hm. ok. so only people willing to ignore the sign will be carrying weapons in here. I hope it's the good guys who are ignoring the sign-- not the bad ones.

But I don't carry --too many hoops to jump thru for me. :)

[Cadam]

It's not the guy with a permit I am worried about kwim? Wether the library posts signs or not makes no difference. If he has a permit he can take it where he likes.