A question about French grammar textbooks/workbooks...

[Nan in Mass]

I have been rereading this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1328563#poststop as I try to decide what we are doing for Français and Histoire/Geographie next year. What a lot of nice information you gave me last year! Now that I have more confidence in our ability to use French textbooks, and now that I have my son writing in French, albeit very badly, I am reconsidering using some sort of grammar book. GRIN Go ahead and say I-told-you-so, everyone. I could see that you were probably right last year, but it seemed as though there were so many nitty-gritties to learn and my son was so far behind that at best it would be a drop in the bucket and at worst, he would be incapable of doing one. Instead, every week he did some copy work taken from the answers to his histoire/géographie. I now see from looking at various years of CNED that this probably wasn't true. Either that, or the work this last year has brought him to a point where I think he would benefit from one of those grammar books. The question is: which one?

Here is my question:

How much repetition is there from year to year in the grammar/spelling/conjugation parts of the CNED French?

Or any of the other textbooks recommended in that thread?

In other words, can we jump into the middle with 5e or do you think we need to back up to CP level or some other level?Will he miss bits if he jumps into 5e?

Are there any charts of what is covered typically at which level, ones that include what is reviewed (like the Singapore math chart)?

The other option is to take him through something like Ulitmate French Review. I'd like to keep him working in French, if possible, but I'm willing to spend a year doing something like that along-side the histoire if it would result in his coming back into the French system at something more approaching his grade level.

And, of course, there is the time issue. How do I fit histoire/géographie AND français AND French grammar into about 1 1/4 hours a day for about 120 school days (or possibly more if he travels less)?

The end goal here (other than to make what French he has more useful) is to have him be able to write well enough to pass some sort of standardized test in French so that colleges believe his transcript, do enough histoire/géographie to get a high school one credit in geography and at least one credit in Western Civilization, and read some literature in French. And not bore him to death.

Any advice?

I am so very glad that TWTM switched this board to a bilingual board and that there are so many French speakers here!

Gratefully,
Nan

[Laura Corin]

You might like to look at Skeleton French, from Galore Park. It's grammar and only grammar - one book covers maybe two years of high school French I would guess? There are 26 chapters, each of which introduces a grammar point, then there are about eight exercises for each chapter. The index (http://www.galorepark.co.uk/product/parents/90/skeleton-french.html) is on this page. It only covers the present, perfect, immediate future, future and imperfect tenses, however, so might be too basic for your needs.

Laura

[jld]

That book Laura posted about looks really good. Do you think your son would like it, Nan? I thought about what you said about starting with a CP book, and working his way up to seconde, but I have a feeling a 15 year old is not going to want to do that.

Your situation is unique. He has learned through immersion, but it may not be the typical (if there is such a thing, lol) immersion experience. I don't know what to advise. Laura's suggestion looks pretty good, I think.

Btw, I went back and reread that thread. Sheesh, I'm sorry I wrote 7eme. I really do know it's 5eme, lol!:o

And you're giving me an idea for another thread . . .

[Joan in Geneva]

Now that I have more confidence in our ability to use French textbooks, and now that I have my son writing in French, albeit very badly, I am reconsidering using some sort of grammar book.

Nan, you are doing really well. It has taken me years of looking at these French grammar books to get confidence and understanding...I used to just close them because it just wouldn't sink in...

Time and experience do a lot for the parental learning process...getting comfortable with a concept just takes time, like our children learning trig...you have to sleep on things for awhile...

I have to think about your grammar book questions, but am not sure I have an answer...just wanted to encourage you...

Joan

[matroyshka]

The other option is to take him through something like Ulitmate French Review.

If that's anything like the Ultimate Spanish Review book, I've heard very good things about that.

I'll also put in a plug for the Practice Makes Perfect Series. I'm supplementing with those in both Spanish and German. You can get a general Grammar review book, or pick an area you feel he needs work on - we've got the Pronouns and Prepositions book in Spanish, for example, and I got the Verb Tenses book in German when one of my dds needed a bit more work in the preterite.

I am so very glad that TWTM switched this board to a bilingual board and that there are so many French speakers here!


I'll second that! Even though Spanish is one of my languages, that was so limiting. I love hearing even about the languages I don't speak - and so much crosses over no matter what second/third language you're trying to teach.

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you, Joan. I appreciate your support so much.

[Nan in Mass]

You are right. It is definately not the normal immersion experience. Therein lies our problem. It is our current problem, too. I am going to try to find some sort of conversation partner for him next year, perhaps through skype. Or maybe he will find his own. The best would be if it were a young person who played warhammer LOL.
-Nan

[CleoQc]

If I were you, I would choose a grammar book meant for an English adult. It would go faster and at a rythm that would fit him, most likely.

[Nan in Mass]

Is there a scope and sequence for CNED? Something like the one on the Singapore site? Do you know if CNED covers most of the grammar every year or do they do a different bit each year? Much as the idea of an English French grammar books seems easy, I think we still will have to do the français and histoire/géographie as well because nothing seems to sink in unless he is really using it, and in that case, a scope and sequence would be useful.
-Nan

[CleoQc]

Nope. CNED doesn't have a scope and sequence. They follow the national curriculum and assume that's enough for everybody. Typical French ;-)

[Nan in Mass]

And I suppose that wading through the national curriculum is about like wading through our national or state standards - tedious and llllooooonnnngggg. Thank you. I spent a long time last night (when it was quiet LOL) looking at various levels of various subjects. I guess I'll just spend some more time doing that for the grammar.

[Joan in Geneva]

but the lady who knows most was away...so I looked at the books for learning French FL

Most are by CLE International

One set was Panorama, the other Le Nouveau Sans Frontieres...

Then they had a couple of Creme: Methode de Francais by Hachette and Tempo by Didier/Hatier...

I told them I was looking for a friend and they've let me bring them home for free to decide which is best...So I'll let you know after I've had time to look a bit...

Joan

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you so much!

[emubird]

Is the Ultimate French Review the one by Stillman?

Thanks
Emu

[emubird]

I have been rereading this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1328563#poststop as I try to decide what we are doing for Français and Histoire/Geographie next year.
Nan

So were you using something for these subjects this year? I'd be interested in hearing what you liked.

BTW -- at one point, someone suggested Les Malheurs de Sophie. I finally got a copy. I'm liking it a lot -- although I'm glad she's not my child.

Emu

[Nan in Mass]

The histoire/geographie was Hachette. I liked it. It was easy to use and the answer guide had full answers to all the questions. It was practically all pictures, which we liked. As history, it was too low a level for my son, but as French, it was perfect. It also was good for teaching him how to answer textbook questions, which he has a surprisingly hard time with, since we haven't done very many textbooks. He either states the obvious and discovers they wanted him to make inferences, or he states some of his own thoughts or tells what he knows from other places and discovers they wanted him to state the obvious.

We used Français 6e from Bordas. It was a challenge, French-wise, just about perfect (Good guess, Joan!). He had met most of the concepts in Writing Strands. I liked that it was divided into Espace Method sections where the lessons were taught and Lecture sections with reading passages for practice and application. That let us do all the Espace Method's in a section and then do a few of the readings more slowly than meant. If they had been all mixed together, it wouldn't have been as easy for me to tailor to our needs. It is a good think I had the answers for that because sometimes I didn't know what the questions were asking. It didn't have you read any whole books, unlike the CNED 6e (which I have now quickly looked at) but it seemed like it was a bit higher a level.

-Nan

[plimsoll]

I didn't really learn French until I started teaching myself from an old, out of print book I found on my parents' bookshelves: Chardenal. Here are free versions from Google books:

Chardenal Complete (first and second courses):
http://books.google.com/books?id=5TsBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=chardenal&source=bl&ots=k0mA15RaiO&sig=331VHOAQDwg7qmjhoe7YHeM3YtU&hl=en&ei=Fcj0S8SiDsL58AaFuYWBCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

French Exercises for Advanced Pupils:
http://books.google.com/books?id=990MAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=french+exercises+for+advanced+pupils&source=bl&ots=HHbmpnqgPk&sig=U3LqaM7bpuE2ABImatd4drwuJbI&hl=en&ei=Ysr0S5n4IcL68AbRk6XYCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are also answer keys available:

For the complete course:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CqgBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Key+to+Chardenal's+First+and+Second+French+Cour ses&source=bl&ots=s8wgqMT0T_&sig=UjrcxkbfSndvATUidGvilsaYWIk&hl=en&ei=88v0S_GmJ8L-8Abr1szECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

For advanced pupils:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TsUDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Key+to+Chardenal's+English+and+French+Exercises +for+Advanced+Pupils&source=bl&ots=esDB1BO1ZZ&sig=Otww6NzFEvGYhNgAjh6Qd2dijag&hl=en&ei=j8v0S_bdNMP98Abav5DvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

These books are also available in new printings (same old 1920 or so text, new pages and bindings) at Amazon - just search for "Chardenal".

[Joan in Geneva]

Most are by CLE International

One set was Panorama, the other Le Nouveau Sans Frontieres...

Then they had a couple of Creme: Methode de Francais by Hachette and Tempo by Didier/Hatier...

I told them I was looking for a friend and they've let me bring them home for free to decide which is best...So I'll let you know after I've had time to look a bit...

Nan, these books seem to be the type that requires a teacher (unlike some of the other programs mentioned for US high school work)....

They are very busy (colors, sometimes odd typesettings to "appeal" to teens). I don't think I would have them as the mainstay of your program as they are not that methodical (well maybe the teacher is supposed to bring that element)...you could use them on the side as a reference or distraction...(of them I liked the Creme series better than the others but did not really evaluate it for S & S - it didn't seem as distracting)

You might want to look at the Grammaire Progressive (http://www.amazon.com/Grammaire-Progressive-Du-Francais-Exercises/dp/209033858X) books by CLE that Moira was mentioning...They are popular here for adult classes for French as SL. Plain black and white, methodical....There are several books - Communication, Vocab, Literature, Orthographe and Pronunciation....You can get answer books and there are, I think, three levels...

What style do you and your son like?

But all this is said with the caveat that I have not seen any of these other programs that people are mentioning which could be better...

Joan

[emubird]

Thanks for all the resources everyone has posted!

I finally figured out how to search for a particular publisher at our library (it's a convoluted process involving searching interlibrary loan so as to get info on our library that doesn't provide the info to us directly). It turns out they have a lot of books put out by Hachette, I just couldn't find them before. They do not have the textbooks, but just getting access to the other books is good.

[Joan in Geneva]

You might want to look at the Grammaire Progressive (http://www.amazon.com/Grammaire-Progressive-Du-Francais-Exercises/dp/209033858X) books by CLE that Moira was mentioning...They are popular here for adult classes for French as SL. Plain black and white, methodical....There are several books - Communication, Vocab, Literature, Orthographe and Pronunciation....You can get answer books and there are, I think, three levels...

Nan, I was just at the International School Kermesse and got to talk with a French as a foreign language teacher about all the above books. She said that all those Panorama etc ones are a waste and that the only useful series are the Grammaire Progressive books right above. (She is teaching in a private school, not at the International School). She said that the first books I found have almost no explanation for the grammar etc so the student is lost. It was my assessment too, but it is good to hear from someone much more experienced.

She also said that the "debutant" level is a waste because the material is repeated in the "intermediaire" level....so you should just go into the "intermediaire"...I think the link is to the "debutante"

Joan

[Moira in MA]

thanks for the info

~Moira

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you very much, Joan, for going to all that effort. That is very helpful.
: )
Nan