Frustrated with ds and schoolwork...advice?

[yslek]

My ds (age 9) exhausts me. Every day.:ack2:

It seems like every day there is at least one lesson he gets stuck on. Usually it's math and latin. Today it was spelling.

He had a small list (maybe six spelling words) to put in alphabetical order. He has done this type of activity before with absolutely no problem. He did it almost right, but one word which started with "l" was at the bottom of the list, instead of after the other "l" word, which was in the correct place. Instead of fixing the mistake when it was pointed out to him, he insisted the list was correct. I told him that he could either fix it, or practice alphabetizing the rest of the week. (This is the last lesson in the workbook, and I was going to let him take the rest of the week off after finishing the lesson today. I made the same threat about an earlier syllabication exercise, which worked to snap him out of "not knowing" the difference between one and two syllable words.) It didn't work this time, so I printed out a list of words for him to alphabetize. He still hasn't done it. ("I don't know how to do alphabetical order!"...although he recited the ABCs for me, and I could see where he had started putting the list in the correct order, and then erased it.)

Usually it's not spelling, but every day there is at least one problem lesson, sometimes several. It's utterly exhausting. I start the day with a good attitude, but often I end up losing my cool and yelling at him after several hours of this kind of thing. (I'm working on the yelling thing, actually, but I still end up speaking to him in a less-than-kind voice.) Then I feel crummy (and so does he!)

I also have a ds 7 who I am hsing (occasional bad attitude, but generally works through his lessons in reasonable time), and a dd 4 and ds 2 who need way more attention than I am currently giving them. Ds 9 takes up almost my whole day, every day.

I do let him take breaks throughout the day, some of them long. And usually, if I perserve, he does get it, but at such a cost to my sanity and his well-being, not to mention the family in general. He does have some Aspergian qualities, and has always been difficult. New things are hard for him. There are some subjects which used to be torture, but now he does quite well on. For example, his history narrations haven't been a source of conflict in several months, and his narrations are really getting much better than the "bare minium" few sentences I'd been seeing before. But the areas where we have most of our problems are not new; not even the curriculum is new (except FLL3 for English, which he still claims to dislike...we are 33 lessons into it, though, and he does it without complaint now most of the time.)

For Latin (Latin's not so Tough, level 3) I've decided that after he finishes lesson 15 (one lesson away) he can be done, because I just don't have the energy to sustain the several-hour struggle that inevitably results when this is assigned, even when the assignment is pared down to just 1/4-1/2 a page. We'll try LFC in a year, I think; the boys really wanted to do Spanish, so we're taking a break soon to do The Easy Spanish.

Anyway, I'm just wondering...should I perservere with what I'm doing? Are there some kids that just aren't cut out for a classical education? Is there another approach (CM maybe?) that would work better?

I don't know if I've included everything I need to, but this is plenty long enough already! TIA for any words of advice/encouragement.

Kelsy (whose ds 9 is doing: FLL3, SWO C/D, SWOT book 3, Latin's Not So Tough 3, Hey, Andrew! 1, MUS gamma/delta...but have TT5 on the way, SOTW 2, NOEO physics 1)

[Old Dominion Heather]

Hmmm...

My kids are younger, but I will still throw my two cents in...

Could you have maybe just told him to draw an arrow to the correct place for the word? My ds will shut down if he thinks he has to redo something for a minor mistake. :svengo: It sounds like he just missed the word, rather than didn't know what to do with it. If he does truly know how to alphabetize, I am not sure I would make him continue doing it. It is not a skill that is used on a daily basis.

I am constantly having to decide whether or not his errors, dawdling, etc are a hill I am willing to die on. For example, ds8 is working above grade level in math. He does very well, but can't handle doing a whole lesson only to find at the end that he has missed a few (or more) and has to redo them. It would cause a meltdown every single day. I finally decided that I was punishing both of us for him getting upset over perceived failure. It wasn't something that he should get extra punishment for, ya' know? So we had a redo. He is free to get me to check his work every four problems. Stopping and correcting in smaller chunks has made him do a 180 with his math and I was thinking I would have to switch programs. :001_huh:

I realize that I am only speaking to the one curriculum issue, but I'm sure you will get good advice on dealing with the other issues as well.

[yslek]

Thanks, Old Dominion Heather. That was a helpful idea for the spelling. I think I'll do that, as handwriting is not his strong point (understatement!) and the thought of re-writing something could cause him to lock up. I guess we didn't talk about what to do to fix the alphabetizing problem, because he never did admit the problem exisited! But maybe that is why. (And I agree that in the grand scheme of things, alphabetizing is not a huge deal.)

Unfortunately, usually his "lock up" will occur at the beginning of a lesson. Sometimes it's something he doesn't quite remember (like how to start double-digit by double-digit multiplication) and instead of asking for help (which he knows and can verbalize he's supposed to do, but never does) he throws his book, or defaces it, or sits there sulking. I do try to get him to explain his problem, but usually all I get from him is "this is stupid and dumb and I hate it." Sometimes I sit down and lead him through the problem thing step-by-step. Sometimes I wonder if he is just "lazy" and waiting for me to get to that point so that he doesn't have to think so hard. (He's the kind of boy who willingly does something if he immediately knows the answer, but if something requires thinking/figuring out, he gives up without even trying.)

It takes time to sit next to him through every single lesson, though, and I still have the other dc. Sometimes I have evil thoughts of how easy it would be to hs the others if ds9 were at school. Then I feel terrible for thinking that. I love him, and would hate to "give up" on him, so to speak. Plus, of all the dc, he probably needs to be hsed to most. (Ps kids tend to bully him.)

Thanks again,
Kelsy

[Cindyg]

He had a small list (maybe six spelling words) to put in alphabetical order. He has done this type of activity before with absolutely no problem. He did it almost right, but one word which started with "l" was at the bottom of the list, instead of after the other "l" word, which was in the correct place. Instead of fixing the mistake when it was pointed out to him, he insisted the list was correct.

I have a suggestion for that specific problem: When my son has a list to alphabetize that is difficult for him, I write the words out on small sticky notes and have him put them in order. That way if he gets to the end and finds he forgot one, it is easy to shift everything over and slip it in.

If my son were in the situation you described, the balking would be over having to re-write the list. The sticky-note system eliminates that problem. (You could even have your son write his own sticky notes if you don't want him to miss out on writing the words.)

Anyway, I'm just wondering...should I perservere with what I'm doing?

No, something's wrong.

Are there some kids that just aren't cut out for a classical education? Is there another approach (CM maybe?) that would work better?

No, I don't think this is an issue related to classical education. I mean, you can switch methods if you think it would suit the two of you better. But the issues you mention are not related to method or curriculum.

I'm not going to give you further advice -- not because I'm being snippy, but simply because I don't know. It's complicated, and I'm not there. But I did want to share that alphabetizing tip with you.

Best of luck to you.

[Old Dominion Heather]

(He's the kind of boy who willingly does something if he immediately knows the answer, but if something requires thinking/figuring out, he gives up without even trying.)

It takes time to sit next to him through every single lesson, though, and I still have the other dc.

Well... I don't know it it will help or not, but could you maybe get a white board, one of the little ones, not the giant ones and let him work on that for a bit, just for novelty factor? Maybe to get his enthusiasm back again? Then have him work through through his toughest five problems like that? With the knowledge that you are available for him for that period of time, but after that, you will be with the younger guys.

The transition when I started teaching my younger son was a hard one for the oldest ds. He was used to having all the attention, too, though not to the extent that your oldest son is acting out. I think maybe some consequences would be appropriate there, for example, tying his attitude to his tv time. That worked for my oldest when he would sulk. I would give him a perfectly reasonable amount of time to complete a subject, such an hour for math. (He is working in Saxon 76 and does 16 problems out of the problem set, just to give you an idea of how much work I am asking him to do.) After the hour is up, the time comes off his tv, or video time, or he must complete the rest after dinner instead of play time. Usually reminding him of the time limit is enough to get him to pick up the pace and he has only have to lose tv or whatever maybe 3-4 times.

It sounds as if he is truly trying to run your school time, so I think some consequences and some discussion of what happens in the classroom if your don't complete your work might be appropriate.

[klmama]

You may want to let Latin go, but be careful. My ds is much the same way, and a few times I let too many things go when I couldn't handle it. I've found that once I let something go, it's very hard to get back into it again later. We've managed to do it, but it's hard, hard, hard, and the resentment level (on his part) can be pretty high. You already know what that can do to the family.

As for correcting every mistake, well, for math I think it can be a good idea at times (but not always), and for spelling, too, but for alphabetizing I think I'd just point it out the error and move on. That "I can't do it perfectly the first time so I'm going to freak out and ruin everyone's day" thing gets pretty exhausting. If I had to do it all over, I'd let more mistakes go and keep moving forward, rather than insist on 100% correct work before moving on. For this type of kid it breeds frustration and a sense of failure and hopelessness because they aren't perfect, and it only gets worse as puberty issues hit.

I'd just ask him for his best work, and if he thinks it's his best, fine. Take it and move on. Your whole family's well-being is as important as his education, and his education doesn't have to be "by the book."

[Joanne]

Usually it's not spelling, but every day there is at least one problem lesson, sometimes several. It's utterly exhausting. I start the day with a good attitude, but often I end up losing my cool and yelling at him after several hours of this kind of thing. (I'm working on the yelling thing, actually, but I still end up speaking to him in a less-than-kind voice.) Then I feel crummy (and so does he!)

I also have a ds 7 who I am hsing (occasional bad attitude, but generally works through his lessons in reasonable time), and a dd 4 and ds 2 who need way more attention than I am currently giving them. Ds 9 takes up almost my whole day, every day.

I do let him take breaks throughout the day, some of them long. And usually, if I perserve, he does get it, but at such a cost to my sanity and his well-being, not to mention the family in general. He does have some Aspergian qualities, and has always been difficult. New things are hard for him. There are some subjects which used to be torture, but now he does quite well on. For example, his history narrations haven't been a source of conflict in several months, and his narrations are really getting much better than the "bare minium" few sentences I'd been seeing before. But the areas where we have most of our problems are not new; not even the curriculum is new (except FLL3 for English, which he still claims to dislike...we are 33 lessons into it, though, and he does it without complaint now most of the time.)

Is he your oldest?

Honestly, having been through "9" now 3 times with my own and countless with others, I think it's common to have high and unfair expectations of the first pass through each age. I think the combination of his personality and your expectations/buttons is creating a draining environment.

In reading your whole post, it sounds like he is:

1) Learning
2) Progressing
3) Maturing

I'd remind yourself of that. Lighten up. It will help both of you. Instead of focusing on what you can do academically with him, focus on connecting playfully with him to restore the dynamic of your relationship. This will help him feel/act better and will help you be less likely to yell. Tousle his hair, play verbal games, develop rituals of fun. Intentionally hug, touch, interact with him far more unsolicited than over discipline issues.

He sounds fairly typical 9 year old boy.

Sometimes for my kids, I put their less than perfect work in a folder and we occassionally have "clean up" days where they fix the mistakes they've made over the last few weeks. This way, they are not already out of the focus it takes to write, alphabetize, etc. It really is quickly counter productive to make a child do more formal school of the type they hate/struggle with.

[WTMindy]

I have a little different take because I have a 9yob also who loves to push buttons. With my ds is has nothing to do with wether he knows the material. It is all about trying to exert his independence and be stubborn. For example, if it happens during piano practice, I'll say, "Play a C." He looks at the keys and slips his finger to a D just to be stubborn and he pretends he doesn't know where a C is. This scene plays itself out a couple times a week when he is in a mood.

I have learned not to get riled up about it. I just say things like, "I see you are choosing not to do this right now. You can do this with Daddy tonight." (This is *not* fun for him!) or every once in a while I take the opposite approach and say, "I bet you could figure it out if I gave you a piece of candy." (He does.)
I let him know that if he really does have questions I am more than willing to help him, but I will not help him if he is pretending to not know how to do soemthing. I can usually tell which is which.

The key is to not let it turn into a power struggle. Let him know the consequences of making his choice and then calmly follow through. Now, if he really doesn't know how to do something, then do it together a few times, maybe you do the writing for him until he knows how to do it. But, if your ds is like mine it is more of a heart issue.

I don't make threats. "If you don't do this, then you will have more." I try to phrase it like, "It's OK if you don't know this yet. Don't feel bad, we can practice this all week if you want so that you can really learn it well." I have found that my ds does better with this kind of talk.

We also spend a lot of time when he is "not" in one of his moods about how he should handle those "playing dumb" situations and how he needs to be open to instruction and correction.

I feel you pain, though!! :-) Isn't 9 fun?!

[myfunnybunch]

Words of advice:
Pick one problem to work on....one subject that's a stickler or one habit that's causing problems. Work on that. Your son is old enough to be a part of the process-- sit down with him at a time when you're not butting heads and say, "What's up? I want to help. How can we solve this?" Even if he hasn't got a single useful practical idea, he'll know that you want to work with him. During work time, try to ask before he starts to melt: "What's up? How can I help?"

With my two dawdlers, I started saying, "I can see that you're frustrated. Let's set this aside and come back to it when you're done with xyz." Sometimes that solves the problem right there, just as it does when I get a brain freeze and need some time to unlock. If the child is sulking or not paying attention, I give him/her a time limit, and then we move on-- and that child has to finish the work later on his or her own time. I try my best to be matter-of-fact rather than punitive. It is a natural consequence of not using your time wisely.

I have a child who gets stuck sometimes, asking me to solve a problem he has demonstrated the ability to solve. We make a list together of "solving strategies" or ways to find answers. I refer him to the list rather than telling him the answer. Win-win...I'm not frustrated by his insistence that I tell him the answer, and he feels helped and feels the sense of accomplishment from figuring it out on his own.

Words of encouragement:
I admire your willingness to look at this problem and find ways to make things work better for both of you. Really, the first step is saying to yourself, "This isn't working. What now?" Be patient with yourself and him-- when I get to that point I feel lost for a little while, then ideas start coming to mind, little ones and big ones. You'll find things that work for both of you. You might need a big change. Or you might not hit a big "Aha!" moment that solves everything, but you'll find ways to fill in the gaps and support your child. Either way, things will come together until the day you think back and say to your self, "I remember when we used to battle our way through the morning. That hasn't happened for a long time." :-)

:grouphug:

Cat

[nmoira]

Unfortunately, usually his "lock up" will occur at the beginning of a lesson. Sometimes it's something he doesn't quite remember (like how to start double-digit by double-digit multiplication) and instead of asking for help (which he knows and can verbalize he's supposed to do, but never does) he throws his book, or defaces it, or sits there sulking. I do try to get him to explain his problem, but usually all I get from him is "this is stupid and dumb and I hate it." Sometimes I sit down and lead him through the problem thing step-by-step. Sometimes I wonder if he is just "lazy" and waiting for me to get to that point so that he doesn't have to think so hard. (He's the kind of boy who willingly does something if he immediately knows the answer, but if something requires thinking/figuring out, he gives up without even trying.)I would suggest you do some reading about perfectionism so you can decide to what extent this exacerbate the situation.

Here's the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_%28psychology%29). Hoagies Gifted (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org) also has some great material. The book Mindset by Carol Dweck has helped me immensely with my perfectionist (any myself too).

[Hoggirl]

My ds suffers from perfectionism, and would get completely frustrated if he didn't understand something the VERY first time. It is definitely an age of drawing away from mom and more toward dad, I think. They want independence, but it is scary, too.

Here is my $0.02. You may already be doing this, so take it with a grain of salt. If he is tending to "lock up" at the beginning of a lesson, maybe spending 10 minutes reviewing before you start would help. Kids are soooo perceptive. I am sure he senses your frustration. I am saying this gently...maybe he doesn't like to ask, b/c he knows it will frustrate you and he wants to please you? Okay, and this is extremely s*xist, but he is just a "little" man, and NONE of them EVER like to ask for help! No offense to any gentlemen on the board! I would start out by going over a couple of subjects that you expect him to work on independently. Kind of "get him going" before you turn him loose. Let's say it's math. Look over the problems and what he is expected to learn. If there is review, look over that, and say..."Oh, honey. Here are some of those that you were having a hard time remembering how to approach. Remember, when you see this kind of problem the steps are...." My child went through a phase when he was younger where he would often miss adding long columns of double-digit numbers. When I would see one of those on his assignment, I would have him circle it, and say, "You know, these are always tricky for you, so spend a little more time here. I know you can do it." I just think spending some time on the front end, offering some guidance and some encouragement might help. Sometimes I get so caught up in just checking off boxes that I forget the big picture, kwim?

Also, my other piece of FREE advice (worth what you pay for it!) is to teach him to type over the summer. I cannot tell you how much this helped in our home school. My ds hated writing assignments b/c there were neatness issues and then the ever-burdensome editing. These difficulties are eliminated by typing. He has no qualms about editing now at all, b/c it is so easy.

Hang in there. I just know that 9 was hard for us, too.