I desperately need a pep-talk (dysgraphia)

[ondreeuh]

I am struggling with my son being unable to write - I mean he is still not able to spell basic words! He is turning 9 this summer and is finally reading pretty well. He's reading Pippi Longstocking right now :D. He makes silly mistakes (doesn't read the ending, guesses instead of sounding out, forgets syllabication rules) but these are becoming less frequent the more he practices and I don't have to help him much anymore.

Writing has not improved. We did AAS for a while and he could spell the CVC words but was not able to apply the other rules. He could recite the rules but never "looked them up" in his memory when actually trying to spell. After a break we started Sequential Spelling. This was interesting because he did learn some patterns but the words were SO challenging for him and he was so stressed and discouraged that I thought he would do better getting more of a foundation before doing SS again.

I pulled a list of the most commonly written words to see if that will make more immediate success. After working all week on a list of 8 words, he still misspelled the words "of" (he spelled it uov), "is" (es) and "that" (theut). He can read these words without issue, and he can remember short-term how to spell them, but obviously they didn't make it to long-term memory. He knows his phonograms but obviously isn't using them well.

If he totally guesses on spelling (as I encourage him to do when trying to write a sentence) then the words are all out of order, missing, wrong tense, etc. He is awful at narration and I have to help him rephrase everything. Sometimes he can answer a question in a complete sentence but only if he is rephrasing what I've said - he can't narrate a complete original sentence. We are nowhere near him being able to use a tape recorder or voice-recognition software. He understands everything though - comprehension is not the issue. The words just come out a mess.

I don't know where to go next. He can't write the most basic words, and can't keep words straight to write a sentence. This is getting pretty late to be a maturity issue. He was dx with dyslexia and really struggled to read but finally began reading last year and I suspect he needed the extra time to mature, but I don't know how much longer I can wait for writing. Even though handwriting practice has improved his ability to form letters, he still consistently makes tons of errors. I assume he has dysgraphia - but what does that really mean? I feel like nothing is working and nothing will ever work. Yes, I'm having a little pity party.

Please, tell me what has worked with you. What did you do when your child was not able to narrate well ? What did you use to teach your child to spell when they couldn't even spell the word IS? :confused:

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

Spelling typically lags reading. Is and of are actually pretty tough words, they both have their voiced pair sound (s/z and f/v.) Has he tried my phonics lessons? Watching them and reading my UPP for a while may help, I have several documents in UPP (http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/upp.html) and the phonics lessons teach the UPP.

If the UPP is too "marky" and confusing (give it a week or so first, though, it does take a while to get used to), you could try Leigh Print, having him read things in Leigh Print (http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/leighprint.html) may help him visually remember the spellings. The clearest scans are in the German/English link, "The new guide to modern conversation."

If he's good at math, he may also appreciate my charts for reading and spelling:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/phonogramsoundch.html

You could also try Spelling Rules and Spelling Dictation, it works on the most common 1,000 words and includes a companion dictation book that uses the words in sentences, you can get them from RR, they are cheap.

[ondreeuh]

He hasn't done your phonics lessons but he has done AAS and phonics-based spelling was just too imprecise with the complex series of rules to follow (if this AND this but NOT this, then use this spelling). The UPP and other fonts are way too visually frustrating for both of us.

I'm not even looking for a program so much as an approach. We have done writing the words five times a day while saying the word, reciting the spelling while hopping on a trampoline, tracing the words on sandpaper, quizzing throughout the day. He does have a few memorized from frequent use so I know it's possible. Maybe I will try using colored markers.

[JennW in SoCal]

My special needs kiddo had a different set of issues, but the approach I took with him might be a helpful example for you.

I didn't expect any writing from him at 9. He did copy work, and sometimes wrote for fun, but everything else was oral. His spelling was a nightmare, and although he could memorize the correct spelling for a list of words he couldn't apply it to his writing. I can't remember how old he was when we started Sequential Spelling, but it was the spelling program that worked best for him. He learned to type early on, and when he started e-mailing friends and his grandmother, he was very concerned about spelling correctly, and between spell check and my proof reading he finally got to be a decent speller.

I started having him write narrations at age 12 -- on the computer. I know -- pretty late, but within a year he went from tortured efforts at getting a line or two down to writing a full page. He turned to writing up short research reports and progressed easily to essays when he started high school.

9 is still young. Your older child may have been writing at 9, but give your ds a more time to get some of those other bits and pieces put into place. Have him do copy work, do some dictation, but save the narrations until those mechanics are under his belt. Do everything else orally -- have him summarize what he has read, ask leading questions and be interested in his opinions, ask him why he thinks the way he does. In this way he is learning the skills for writing -- the mechanics through copywork and dictation, the thought process in conversations. It will come together, but perhaps not as quickly as you might expect.

[KarenAnne]

When you have a child like this (as I do also) you need to first put aside all expectations that he will or should be writing at a certain level by a certain age. Put away ALL of them for the moment. My daughter, like JennW's son, was barely able to spell a three-letter word at age nine. We did almost everything orally and through hands-on activities and projects, including much of her math -- she couldn't write numbers without reversing the individual digits or the order of a pair of digits, couldn't line them up to add or subtract. Math was mental math, manipulatives, picture books, games, origami and tangrams, etc. until 5th or 6th grade, when we STARTED adding written work.

So I heartily agree with JennW's advice to scale back down on the written work, do most things orally, work on being able to tell a story and summarize verbally, while just working slowly on spelling (which, by the way, you can also do orally some of the time). We used Spelling Power, but to be very honest, I think no spelling program on its own is a magic bullet. You are laying groundwork, but the actual "work," such as it is, is going on neurologically, as connections between dysgraphic kids' eyes, hands, and brains just take a really long time to link up properly and mature. For Jenn's son, my daughter, and the kids of a number of other people whose stories I have read, this happened around the ages of twelve and thirteen. You can continue laying the groundwork before then, but your child's brain is on its own timetable and you just can't make that wiring connect before then. One of the hardest things I had to do as a homeschooling parent was to accept that, sit back, and wait -- while still working on all the other things mentioned.

My daughter, surprisingly, loved to write, so she messed around a lot on her own (bad spelling, illegible, etc.). I never touched it unless she asked me to, and then I would only provide spellings if asked, and talk mostly about the content. If your son doesn't do this kind of thing at all on his own, Peggy Kaye's Games For Writing has some fun ways to incorporate writing into your day without it being stressful or formal or "school." Meanwhile I gave her as many opportunities as possible to strengthen her hand muscles, which were quite weak when she was younger: we used all kinds of crafts kits, pipe cleaners, tape, string, beads, clay, Legos, tweezers, anything and everything I could think of.

It is so hard not to panic or at least stress out when you look at a nine-year-old with this level of dysfunction. But it does all come together eventually. At fourteen my child now writes two and three page essays with ease -- although she is not and probably is not ever going to be a champion speller and will need to rely heavily on proofreading and spellcheck programs on computers. But it's legible, it's mostly spelled correctly, and she still likes to write.

[Leeanne]

It is so hard not to panic or at least stress out when you look at a nine-year-old with this level of dysfunction. But it does all come together eventually. At fourteen my child now writes two and three page essays with ease -- although she is not and probably is not ever going to be a champion speller and will need to rely heavily on proofreading and spellcheck programs on computers. But it's legible, it's mostly spelled correctly, and she still likes to write.

Yes, I agree with what Karenanne said. My ds is almost 15 and probably looked a lot like your ds at age 9. I still remember when my ds took the readiness exam for kindergarten and spelled his name with a single triangle-looking thing. He had no line orientation, no spelling skills and was not able to communicate a coherent thought on paper for many years. Just as Karenanne said, it started coming together at some point in the teen years. He still has spelling errors, expressive writing delays and punctuation issues, but his writing has come along way from the triangle. The thing I work with him the most on is making sure that he takes his time when he writes. It is a task that he does not enjoy and will tend to hurry through and not worry about his mistakes. If he knows that I am going to make him rewrite, he usually does a better job the first time. Also, I make him look up words in a dictionary or ask for help in spelling so that he is not writing phonetically. Not much help here, but I certainly understand your situation.

[Laurie4b]

BTDT.

Here's what I worked out for my two kids with dyslexia. Using the list of most frequent words, I applied a teaching method that is used by a $$$$$ private school for LD's around here. (Some of my graduate training was with the director of that school as a prof.)

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195244#poststop

If your ds has trouble with actually forming the letters (ie if it takes concentration to do that, too), then teach him to keyboard asap. That really helped my ds.

[ondreeuh]

BTDT.

Here's what I worked out for my two kids with dyslexia. Using the list of most frequent words, I applied a teaching method that is used by a $$$$$ private school for LD's around here. (Some of my graduate training was with the director of that school as a prof.)

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195244#poststop

If your ds has trouble with actually forming the letters (ie if it takes concentration to do that, too), then teach him to keyboard asap. That really helped my ds.

Can I kiss you? Would that be improper?

Thank you so much. This is exactly what I need.

[ondreeuh]

I am so glad to hear that there is hope. We do love Penny Kaye's Writing Games and actually did the game where you roll a dice and have to write that number of words for a joint story. We will keep going slow and steady.

Last night was especially hard because I was bummed about his spelling, and then we went to cub scouts. A sweet little kindergartener wrote her mom a whole story in a notebook (wow!) and one of the dads there was saying he wasn't allowing his son to play baseball this year because he didn't do well on his homework. He said that he had to read three novels each quarter, and he took too long to do his spelling which included writing a sentence containing two adjectives for each spelling word. His son is in 3rd grade like mine. I did tell him that that assignment was asking a LOT for a 3rd grade boy and I wasn't surprised he struggled. The dad thinks his kid is just not trying hard enough so is not letting him do any extracurriculars. How sad is that? Anyway it just hit me how my son is SO far behind every other kid I know. I used to feel that way about reading but he is doing so well there. I just need to ignore what the other kids are doing and focus on my son's progress.

[KarenAnne]

IAnyway it just hit me how my son is SO far behind every other kid I know. I used to feel that way about reading but he is doing so well there. I just need to ignore what the other kids are doing and focus on my son's progress.

Yes, this is SO HARD to do consistently, but it is vitally important.

[chiguirre]

We're right there with you, too, right down to the cub scout angst. I have started having ds write the answers to two comprehension questions each day. I sit with him and talk him through the spelling and mechanics issues (and the b and d thing--still!) I have noticed that he's getting better about starting with a capital and slowing starting to think about the sounds in the words before he starts writing them. It's slow, but I do think it will come. He attends a weekly tutoring session for autistic kids and his teacher tells me he's coming along nicely and will be able to read and write at an adult level eventually. She has a lot of experience, so I do give her opinion some weight.

[Laurie4b]

Can I kiss you? Would that be improper?

Thank you so much. This is exactly what I need.

A cheek kiss would be okay!

The overteaching does work. And once those 300 words are nailed to the brain, that's 65% of written language. It makes a big difference.

Feel free to pm me if you have specific questions.

[siloam]

Writing has not improved. We did AAS for a while and he could spell the CVC words but was not able to apply the other rules. He could recite the rules but never "looked them up" in his memory when actually trying to spell.

This is a problem with the child's attitude, and until they decide they care you are limited in what you can do. I say this as a visual dyslexic, with low visual memory (can't picture words in my mind) who doesn't spell well. My spelling didn't improve till I cared, really cared. Not just, "I wish I could spell." But was willing to get off my hind end and figure out how to spell, to apply what I knew.

I would personally get him typing and have him type as much as possible. It is amazing how when you spell check the same word for the about 100th time it dawns on you that if you just stopped and paid attention to how it was spelled you could quit having to check it. :D

What do I do with my kids?

I work with sand letter cards and writing in sand to work on how to form letters without needed the small motor control.

I allow them to use my "special" gel pens for doing copywork as long as they promise to work on making it neat.

My oldest is learning to use a fountain pen because dysgraphics often press too hard, and you can't do that with a fountain pen. You have to hold it right and keep the pressure on the light side for it to work right. She also sees it as a treat.

For my 8yo, the one who can't spell I took her through LiPS because she couldn't hear the difference between /i/ and /e/ and she couldn't hear both sounds in blends. Now she is doing Seeing Stars, which I add to AAS, because she doesn't naturally see words in her mind and it helps develop that ability to build a visual memory of words.

Mostly you just have to keep running the race...

Heather

[ElizabethB]

I hope that works for you!

Spelling Plus (http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Spelling+Plus%3A+1000+Words+Toward+Spelling+Suc/014528/1271219990-1744054) has those 1,000 words in nice lists arranged by pattern/rule and its accompanying Spelling Dictation (http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Spelling+Dictation+Resource+Book/004554/1271219990-1744054) book has the words in sentences. I recommend them to many of my struggling students.

[TAKlinda]

To help your son when writing paragraphs, give him a formula which will act like a tool. Ask your son to give you some facts about the topic he is working on. Then give him this very simple formula: an introductory sentence, 3 to 5 fact-based sentences, and a concluding sentence that refers back to the introductory sentence. Essays are just a series of these paragraphs strung together with the final sentence in the essay referring back to the first sentence in the essay.

To help with writing a sentence to answer a question, have your son use the question to form his answer.
eg., What is the lifespan of a seal?
The lifespan of a seal is....

Spelling is a difficult thing to teach because there are so many exceptions to spelling rules. When working on spelling lists try to put words into groups, for example, 'ight' words: light, right, tight. When they are practicing the words, give them a fill-in sheet with just the letters within the word they are struggling with to be filled in, for example, ‘light’ = li_ _ t. This will make it more enjoyable and will also highlight the actual part of the word they are misspelling.

Dot patterns will help if there are any letter or number reversal problems.

It does get better, don't get discouraged.
Linda.

[Renee in FL]

My 12yo was at about that level at age 9. At the beginning of this school year, he tested at a 2.5 grade level in spelling (from SWR.) Between working with the phonograms, spell check for his written work, and a keyboarding course (where he typed words over and over and over) he is now at a 4.9 spelling level! I think he will eventually get to a point where he can spell/write well enough to get by.

My 9yo can't read more than CVC words and he spells at about that level, too (except he can't seem to get /e/ and /i/ straight.) Your ds is way beyond him!

[wapiti]

As far as handwriting goes, I second the recommendation for typing. DD9 recently started learning to type and she is loving it. It was the recommendation of the psychologist who tested dd.

I saw this link here at WTM the other day, and then when she got home from school she informed me that she had been using the same site in her technology class at school to learn typing!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/

Anyway she's been working away at it ever since, on my computer of course :tongue_smilie:. I'm starting to think the kids will need their own computer sooner than I thought (she's our oldest). For Latin, she had been translating orally (time consuming for me!). I'm anxious to have her do it in writing, er, typing :)

[HeatherM2]

:grouphug: My dyslexic son was much like your son at age 9. I can remember those feelings.

What worked well for us was copywork. I picked an easy reader that was below his grade level and he copied sentences from that everyday. It took time but his spelling did improve.

Other then copywork I didn't expect him to write anything on his own until about the middle of 5th grade when I started having him write narrations. We used Fifty Famous Stories Retold for written narrations because the stories were interesting and short. As hard as it was for me I didn't correct his written narrations. I just wanted him to get comfortable writing.

I think we started Sequential Spelling around the 6th grade and it has made a huge difference. I do remember it was a little overwhelming for him at first so we only did half the words each day until his confidence grew.

Now that my son is 14 and likes to communicate with friends and family on facebook etc. it is more important to him to spell correctly and that has made a difference as well. :D

Hang in there! It does get better.

[ondreeuh]

Thank you!

I met with a teacher who works with struggling students today and she gave me some good tips in regard to getting started with four-square writing - just making a web and filling in examples and then (later) details. She reassured me that I am on a path that does lead to writing and to relax about it. She also encouraged me to separate spelling and writing, which is what you said too, and so I will work harder to do that. I definitely don't want to make it anymore stressful for him.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

OK I have not read any of the posts, but this might help you. I did this when my ds could not learn his letters. It was told to me by a speech therapist, but you never know.

Get sandpaper (not the really grittty stuff, but a softer kind) and your carpet. When he is studying his words (do 1 or 2 a day at first as to not overwhelm him) and have him say the correct spelling out loud,(so he hears the word) then write the word correctly on the sand paper with his pointer finger (of his dominant hand;you tell him letter by letter at first if thats what it takes) then write it in the carpet with his dominent finger. The different textures help to cement correct spelling into his brain. Try it and see if it helps!

[MerryAtHope]

Hi Andrea,

I'm glad you got some help "with skin on!" I just wanted to say that at 8/almost 9, my son wasn't doing any writing that wasn't copywork. I remember that year my goal was to see if I could get him to copy a short paragraph. I was nowhere near thinking he could write one on his own--even a sentence was asking a lot. The graphic organizers are a good idea to help him just get some ideas down, or tell them to you--whichever works. Definitely I didn't even look at spelling in his writing, which didn't really start until 5th grade, and then it was a gradual practice (starting with him recopying what I scribed). He didn't want to learn to type then, but prefers it now in 7th grade. When he did start writing, I told him I didn't have to read it--he could read it to me. That took the pressure off for him, he didn't have to worry about any mechanics then.

I just posted in another post that he turned down my offer to scribe for him on part of his science test today (I usually scribe so he doesn't have to write out definitions), is voluntarily trying to take more detailed notes for science, and has written several longer pieces this year. I never would have thought in 3rd or 4th grade that we'd make it this far this soon. You don't know what the future will bring, but I just wanted to say to keep on keeping on. You're on the right path, and you'll see progress over time (and have to ignore some of those comparison stories!) (((Hugs))) Merry :-)

[jeanlee411]

To help your son when writing paragraphs, give him a formula which will act like a tool. Ask your son to give you some facts about the topic he is working on. Then give him this very simple formula: an introductory sentence, 3 to 5 fact-based sentences, and a concluding sentence that refers back to the introductory sentence. Essays are just a series of these paragraphs strung together with the final sentence in the essay referring back to the first sentence in the essay.

To help with writing a sentence to answer a question, have your son use the question to form his answer.
eg., What is the lifespan of a seal?
The lifespan of a seal is....

Spelling is a difficult thing to teach because there are so many exceptions to spelling rules. When working on spelling lists try to put words into groups, for example, 'ight' words: light, right, tight. When they are practicing the words, give them a fill-in sheet with just the letters within the word they are struggling with to be filled in, for example, ‘light’ = li_ _ t. This will make it more enjoyable and will also highlight the actual part of the word they are misspelling.

Dot patterns will help if there are any letter or number reversal problems.

It does get better, don't get discouraged.
Linda.
My 12yo was at about that level at age 9. At the beginning of this school year, he tested at a 2.5 grade level in spelling (from SWR.) Between working with the phonograms, spell check for his written work, and a keyboarding course (where he typed words over and over and over) he is now at a 4.9 spelling level! I think he will eventually get to a point where he can spell/write well enough to get by.

[Ottakee]

I am going to suggest something different. Check out Apples and Pears Spelling from http://www.prometheantrust.org/soundfoundationsbooks.htm. This is a program from England designed for kids with dyslexia and other special learning needs.

It is unique such that there are NO rules to memorize, NO word lists to study (and then forget the next week), etc. It is completely scripted so anyone that can read at about a 4th grade level can "teach" the program. It includes tracing letters and sounds, filling in the blanks, copy work, dictations, etc. It builds slowly as it goes but keeps reviewing what has been covered so it is not forgotten.

This is the only thing that got my girls spelling.

[nikkinic]

My son has had some success with using All about Spelling. It's a phonics/rule based program based on the orton gilligham method. I've kind of accepted that he's never going to be a super speller, but he has improved since we started using this program.