Anybody here with GT older students?

[The Dragon Academy]

I am looking for someone to discuss science curric. with me.

Esp. Apologia and other junior high/high school programs.

[Gratia271]

:bigear:

[The Dragon Academy]

:bigear:

Thanks for the ear. Here is a message I wrote for another forum. Can you tell me what you think?

---

Okay, ladies, I need help and opinions.

DS likes science and does well with it. We are currently using Apologia Physical Science and I have purchased both Apologia Biology and Marine Biology (along with the corresponding lab kits from Nature's Workshop) for next year. The problem is (and it might not be a problem) DS is whipping through the books and the tests. He does not find them challenging.

I tend to agree with him, so I have been beefing up the tests and he is still scoring As.

I do not know enough about homeschool curric. to know if Apologia is on the easy side or if the ease with which DS is cruising along is due to his giftedness. Since we are still in junior high he will have completed three years of high school science in 3 semesters, scoring As in all three classes.

Are there more challenging science curric. out there?
What do you think of BJU for science? I have heard mixed reviews about BJU.
What about EPGY?

Any guidance you can provide is more than welcome. Also, if I am unclear with what I am asking please let me know I will attempt to clarify. I am in a hurry this morning and am trying to write this quickly.

[Rebecca VA]

The moms on the High School board are very knowledgeable about curricula. They may not use the words "Gifted and Talented" in their posts, but their children have turned out extremely well and are attending top colleges.

[EKS]

I have a soon to be 14yo who has been using high school level books for a few years. But we don't use Apologia.

[The Dragon Academy]

The moms on the High School board are very knowledgeable about curricula. They may not use the words "Gifted and Talented" in their posts, but their children have turned out extremely well and are attending top colleges.

I know and I have thought about posting over there and I read science threads when I see them come along. I just don't want people to say "Oh, look, DA is bragging about her kid." Especially because I have read threads where people say their high schoolers are struggling with Apologia.

Does that make sense?

[The Dragon Academy]

I have a soon to be 14yo who has been using high school level books for a few years. But we don't use Apologia.

What do you use for science?

[Rebecca VA]

I don't know a whole lot about Apologia (we use BJU for science), but one mom on these boards who has a freshman at MIT uses Apologia materials.

[Rebecca VA]

No, I don't think anyone would consider it bragging, especially if you don't over-emphasize his age. Most moms on these boards have students at varying levels, depending on their interests and abilities.

I'll be interested to hear the responses myself -- I'm curious about the Apologia Biology/Anatomy duo for AP Biology.

[The Dragon Academy]

No, I don't think anyone would consider it bragging, especially if you don't over-emphasize his age. Most moms on these boards have students at varying levels, depending on their interests and abilities.

I'll be interested to hear the responses myself -- I'm curious about the Apologia Biology/Anatomy duo for AP Biology.

Okay, I'll give it a go.

[EKS]

This year we are using Conceptual Chemistry combined with the Teaching Company Chemistry lectures. Conceptual Chemistry avoids math while the TC lectures are all about the quantitative aspect of chemistry. If I had it to do over again, I would use a more traditional high school text, as the quantitative piece strengthens my son's understanding of the material.

Last year we used the physics portion of Conceptual Physical Science-Explorations. After using it, I decided that it would have been better for him to have used Conceptual Physics instead because what we used was too watered down. That's why I switched to Conceptual Chemistry this year instead of using the chemistry part of Explorations (Explorations is written by the authors of Conceptual Physics and Conceptual Chemistry and is essentially a condensed simplified version of the two books). Ah well, live and learn I guess.

My son completed algebra I in 6th grade, so the math hasn't been an issue for either of these.

[The Dragon Academy]

This year we are using Conceptual Chemistry combined with the Teaching Company Chemistry lectures. Conceptual Chemistry avoids math while the TC lectures are all about the quantitative aspect of chemistry. If I had it to do over again, I would use a more traditional high school text, as the quantitative piece strengthens my son's understanding of the material.


My son completed algebra I in 6th grade, so the math hasn't been an issue for either of these.

Thanks for the info. I will look into Conceptual science books. DS is working through Chalkdust Elementary Algebra this term. We have to go slower with math as it is his least favorite and most challenging subject.

[Karin]

Dd is gifted but just plain enjoyed Conceptual Chemistry, particularly the lectures and the labs we did. It wasn't that it was really challenging for her, but she did learn some things she didn't know before. She's going to do the college level Conceptual Physics next year. Later on she'll do AP courses in these, or at least AP level. These might be better for someone working through elementary Algebra.

As for math, have you tried LoF on the side?

[Crimson Wife]

I've got my eye on PLATO (http://www.studyweb.com/Secondary-Solutions/Online-Learning/PLATO-Courses.aspx) science for 4th-6th grades. That's what CTY uses though it's much cheaper to go through HSBC.

[The Dragon Academy]

I've got my eye on PLATO (http://www.studyweb.com/Secondary-Solutions/Online-Learning/PLATO-Courses.aspx) science for 4th-6th grades. That's what CTY uses though it's much cheaper to go through HSBC.

Shame on you for leading me down another potential path. I will not go back and look again! I will not go back and look again!! I will not go back...........

[CleoQc]

Answered you on the high school board ;)

I used to frequent this one more, but switched to high school now. I wish I'd done that sooner. DS lost a lot of time in sciences, because I wasn't giving him free reign. I was slowing him down with languages instead. Now that he has Physical Sciences in his hand, he wakes up in the morning and starts working right away. He'll be done quickly I think.

[8FillTheHeart]

I second the Plato science suggestions. I think Apologia would drive bright kids nuts. (It does me and I'm not!)

My ds completed all 3 in one yr. He followed that with Kinetic Conceptual Physics. It has been perfect. If your child is advanced enough in math, I highly recommend it. It requires solid alg skills and basic trig understanding (sin, cos, tan).

[angela in ohio]

We use BJU, as my dc found Apologia to be too slow and not challenging. BJU works well for them. They like to use the TM, as there is even more information in those.

[KAR120C]

DS used the old editions of My Pals Are Here for elementary, and the old editions of Interactive for middle school (and having to admit we're an entire edition out of those makes me feel old! LOL), and we've been really enjoying Biology Matters this year. We're actually taking a rabbit trail and doing a second biology year with a marine biology focus, so we'll be off the standard track for a bit, but I intend to go on with Chemistry Matters or Physics Matters after that.

[The Dragon Academy]

Thank you for all of the responses. I am reading every one and looking into the programs you are mentioning.

[Nissi]

My oldest used Apologia Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Human Anatomy and Physiology in 7 -9th grades. He used Conceptual Physics for topics not covered in Apologia. Also supplemented with nonfiction titles from library and science camps in the summer. My younger one began General Science in 5th grade followed by Prentice Hall Physical Science Explorer in 6th grade (we got this used at a sale) and will continue with Apologia Bio. Highschool science will be AP courses.

[Gratia271]

Shame on you for leading me down another potential path. I will not go back and look again! I will not go back and look again!! I will not go back...........

I just thought the same thing! Now I have to check this out for my younger two.

[cshell]

If you use the Apologia Bio/ Advanced Apologia Bio...you could also use the DIVE Biology CD!

Dr. Shoremann who teaches the lectures.. has you use both of these books to produce an advanced Bio course. He think upon completion you could take the clep or AP Bio test!!
Check it out! :001_smile:

[The Dragon Academy]

If you use the Apologia Bio/ Advanced Apologia Bio...you could also use the DIVE Biology CD!

Dr. Shoremann who teaches the lectures.. has you use both of these books to produce an advanced Bio course. He think upon completion you could take the clep or AP Bio test!!
Check it out! :001_smile:

I looked at the DIVE Biology CDs and am going to purchase them for DS.

Thanks for the tip.

[Irene Lynn]

Our dd did enjoy Apologia, but she is not a super science kid. She also chose to do a year of Astronomy using Teaching Company videos. That course has 96 lectures with an enthusiastic Professor (I just saw him recently on a Nova show.) and recommends a text that he co-wrote. I also required some research papers to explore areas of interest sparked by the lectures.

There are many Teaching Company DVDs that can enhance whatever science program you choose.

[Nan in Mass]

Sinapore Interactive Science (liked)
Conceptual Physics (loved)
Conceptual Chemistry (sigh - would have been better if my chemistry were stronger - my son really enjoyed what we did in it, though, and hopefully it was enough to ground him for CC science)
Natural History/Technical subjects (probably two years of this, both loose and exploratory)
CC chemistry
CC physics

[radiobrain]

This is what I will use for Physics (along with Conceptual Physics) when we get there. www.explorationeducation.com

I plan on buying this next year... the Advanced Intermediate level.

It has a big lab teacher book, a cd-rom with the lessons and directions for the kids to put together the projects and the project kit. I will have to get 2 kits, but that's ok. It's about the same price as sending them both to a week of physics classes. I saw them at the convention, and I became sad that we are doing Biology this year. ;)

I don't think I would have bought it from the website, but in person it was pretty great.

[The Dragon Academy]

This is what I will use for Physics (along with Conceptual Physics) when we get there. www.explorationeducation.com (http://www.explorationeducation.com)

I don't think I would have bought it from the website, but in person it was pretty great.

It's listed as Physical Science, which is deceptive. I was tryingto figure out why you would use that with Conceptual Physics. Only after I clicked the Table of Contents did I realize it is a physics curric.

I will keep this in mind if I get to homeschool DS for the 2011-2012 school year. I have already purchased the Biology/Marine Bio. supplies so we are set for next year.

[radiobrain]

It's listed as Physical Science, which is deceptive. I was tryingto figure out why you would use that with Conceptual Physics. Only after I clicked the Table of Contents did I realize it is a physics curric.

I will keep this in mind if I get to homeschool DS for the 2011-2012 school year. I have already purchased the Biology/Marine Bio. supplies so we are set for next year.

I already own Conceptual Physics, it is in the basement somewhere... This just looked like awesome fun that would be hands off for me, hands on for them.

I already got my biology for next year too. ;) Have not purchased supplies though, so you are WAY ahead of me.

[asta]

Or you can just break completely out of the box.

Look at freshman college texts (there are science texts for both science majors and non-science majors, with the former being "easier"). Look at texts from other english speaking countries (Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Canada). Everyone except the US has basic, intermediate, and advanced versions of everything at high school level.

Check at iTunes U for online courses and look in used book stores for older versions of the required texts.

There are myriad lab programs in biology, chemistry and physics out there. They don't have to match up lesson for lesson. The AP site lists (more or less) what they expect a college prep kid to have. Any decent text will cover the info needed to complete enough labs to "count".

There really is no law that says we have to bow down to the horribleness that is Apologia or BJU.


a

[Gratia271]

So, are the Conceptual Science courses the best for high ability students?

[Gratia271]

:bigear:

[hoosiermom]

My dd did Apologia physical science in 7th and Apologia biology this year in 8th. She basically did physical science on her own w/ help from dh for labs. I was contemplating a switch this year for biology--however, we joined a co-op and they were using Apologia, so we went with it. Long story short--our co-op biology teacher left mid-year and I took over the class. Now I'M the one complaining about Apologia, and we are definitely switching to something else for chemistry. My plans are to use the Prentice-Hall chemistry text with Kolbe's syllabus and parent support materials along w/ the PH virtual labs and hands-on labs from Labpaq. In retrospect, I wish I had switched from Apologia earlier.

[Gratia271]

What did you dislike about the Apologia?

[The Dragon Academy]

What did you dislike about the Apologia?
:bigear:

[hoosiermom]

OK . . . you asked!:D

First of all, I do not think Apologia is rigorous enough, at least for us. It's not so much the content as the review questions/tests/labs. The end-of-chapter review is actually better than the tests. Each chapter averages about 30 pages, but there are only 22-26 points on each test. There might be 20 or more vocab words in a chapter, yet the test will only ask for 4-6. Dd has easily made A's in both physical science and biology as a 7th and 8th-grader, but it only takes her 5-10 minutes to take a test. One of the things that I've done this semester as the biology teacher in co-op is to write my own portion of the test.

The labs are another weak point. With the exception of the dissection labs, the labs are fairly simplistic. The labs don't really use the scientific method, and students aren't given much instruction in writing lab reports. Some of the labs from physical science are repeated in biology.

I fully understand that every text comes w/ built-in author bias. To be clear, we are not YE people. We knew going into the course that we would not always agree w/ the author. I guess you could say we agreed to disagree. Dd complained all thru physical science about the author's "tone." Wise parent that I am, I told her to ignore it and focus on the content. Now that I'm reading the biology text cover-to-cover, I understand what she means!

I have no problem w/ an author presenting both sides of an issue and then stating what side he/she is on. However, the Apologia test questions ask you to agree w/ the author on these controversial issues (not just evolution/creation, but others . . . global warming, for one) in order to get the "right" answer. I would much rather the student be asked to compare/contrast opposing viewpoints and then justify their support for either side. We've chosen to deal w/ this type of test question in this way: dd is allowed to respond "the author wants me to say . . . however, I believe . . . because . . . "

I know many who love Apologia, but I will definitely be switching to something else for chemistry. Honestly, I could ignore our differences of opinion on some topics if I felt the course was rigorous enough. While I don't think our 2 years of Apologia has been a complete waste of time, we need to make a change. Dd is a science-y kind of kid who contemplates a science career--she needs something more challenging.

[Gratia271]

My daughter is also very science-oriented and has breezed through Gen Sci and Physical Sci at a very young age. This concerns me, as I don't want to waste her time or our money. The problem for me is finding a rigorous curriculum. Any ideas? I got feedback on Conceptual Science that it is good but not math-oriented. What is out there? This is uncharted territory for me.

[melmichigan]

I would start by ordering all the catalogs from the big publishers, and reading throught the WTM, ignoring anything Apologia. Your eyes will be opened. ;)

Sorry, I could never do Apologia with my DC, my first DD vetoed it in 2nd grade. Different strokes for different folks and all that. :) My DD is advanced in math so math isn't a problem here either.

[fractalgal]

Sorry, I could never do Apologia with my DC, my first DD vetoed it in 2nd grade. Different strokes for different folks and all that. :)
:iagree: My husband vetoed Apologia here, too.

[Karin]

OK . . . you asked!:D

First of all, I do not think Apologia is rigorous enough, at least for us. It's not so much the content as the review questions/tests/labs. The end-of-chapter review is actually better than the tests.

. Dd is a science-y kind of kid who contemplates a science career--she needs something more challenging.


FIrst, thanks for such a detailed, clear explanation of what you didn't like about it. If you were to do it again, which Biology text would you use? Since the book I'd like to have doesn't exist, I'm open to suggestions. I've heard of Campbell, although we wouldn't agree with Campbell's take on evolution. I wonder, though, if in order to get answers right you'd have to agree with the theory of evolution? The labs are particularly important since dd wants to go into the sciences later, but she's not keen on Biology. She prefers Chemistry, but has to have Biology.

Since there is no book out there for Biology that is neutral, I'm looking for something fairly rigourous, with good questions but isn't too overbearing with the author's view of evolution/creation stance. So far, I've been thinking about Campbell's or Apologia, although I've seen Apologia and wasn't terribly impressed (but didn't sit down and really read it so I couldn't make an honest opinion.)

[cshell]

Hey everybody,

We are sooooo blessed to have the freedom to homeschool...& the freedom to chose what curriculum we want to use....& soooo many options to chose from!!!


There is no perfect curriculum:iagree:...as we all know...
so, my suggestion is to find the best choice that matches up with the majority of your views.
Use this choice as your spine for your course...& supplement with your second choice.

It is wonderful to use the opposing views on topics as a learning experience.
Our children will not live in a bubble after they leave our house.
So, our job is to impart out families worldview..into each topic we teach.
Once they leave our homes...they will get bombarded by many views...ones we agree with & those we do not.

We should use this short time we have to impart our views....& also teach them to think for themselves....

You can use Apologia...Campbell...BJU ... & supplement...supplement....supplement... & our "gifted" kiddos will get the science material...but, will they learn how to think beyond the narrations from a specific author's worldview...& ours for that matter...& make wise choices & conclusions....formulate their own wordview through which they see the world.
????:001_smile:
FYI....Summit Ministries has a wonderful world view course teaching HS students to identify 6 different worldviews & how they compare to a Biblical worlview.

[Crimson Wife]

I've heard of Campbell, although we wouldn't agree with Campbell's take on evolution. I wonder, though, if in order to get answers right you'd have to agree with the theory of evolution?

My high school AP Bio class used an earlier edition of the Campbell book. IIRC there was quite a bit of discussion about evolution. The student would need to understand the Darwinist position in order to receive credit on the tests. But it's up to the student whether or not to accept that POV. I personally believe that it's important for anyone who wants to go into scientific fields to be familiar with Darwin's theory. But knowing *ABOUT* something is not the same thing as agreeing with it.

As an analogy, I believe that any serious student of economics needs to understand the Marxist position. But being able to explain Marx's beliefs about economics does not mean the student in any way has to agree with them.

[asta]

Since there is no book out there for Biology that is neutral, I'm looking for something fairly rigourous, with good questions but isn't too overbearing with the author's view of evolution/creation stance. So far, I've been thinking about Campbell's or Apologia, although I've seen Apologia and wasn't terribly impressed (but didn't sit down and really read it so I couldn't make an honest opinion.)

It's BIOLOGY. Stuff has to come from somewhere. It either started with a big bang in space and then moved along to get where it is today, or it started with a big bang by a and got how it is today. There is no "neutral" if you want your kid to learn biology, chemistry, geology, physics - anything.

If you, as I said before, break out of the "and this was made for the homeschool market" box, you'll find a WEALTH of materials that are much broader in scope, and which focus not on the "and where did we all come from" argument so much as the "and this is a cell, how does it work, and what happens from there" approach. Rigorous science doesn't focus on the hang ups of HS boards, it focuses on learning the mechanics of the [I]known.

There is a GREAT bio book called "Exploring the Way Life Works - The Science of Biology" by Mahon Hoagland and Bert Dodson by Jones and Bartlett publishers. ISBN # 0-7637-1688-X (softcover). There is a "popular press" version (not what I'm talking about) and this one, which is designed for college freshmen, non-science majors. It is engaging, colorful, and has answers in the back. It can be supplemented with any lab program you want (we used Digital Frog). The only bad thing I would say is that it is not microbiology, but ecological biology, so if you want your kid to take the SAT II-M exam (vs the SAT II-E exam), it is not the text for you.


a

[Karin]

My high school AP Bio class used an earlier edition of the Campbell book. IIRC there was quite a bit of discussion about evolution. The student would need to understand the Darwinist position in order to receive credit on the tests. But it's up to the student whether or not to accept that POV. I personally believe that it's important for anyone who wants to go into scientific fields to be familiar with Darwin's theory. But knowing *ABOUT* something is not the same thing as agreeing with it.

As an analogy, I believe that any serious student of economics needs to understand the Marxist position. But being able to explain Marx's beliefs about economics does not mean the student in any way has to agree with them.

:iagree: My dc are going to study the three main camps of ID, creationism & evolution, just as I hope that they will be familiar with Marx. But since Darwin's theory as he wrote it is no longer the evoltionatly theory that is held today (there is neo-Darwinism, which is one form of the theory of evolution out there, though) it will be modern takes on evolution.

It's BIOLOGY. Stuff has to come from somewhere. It either started with a big bang in space and then moved along to get where it is today, or it started with a big bang by a and got how it is today. There is no "neutral" if you want your kid to learn biology, chemistry, geology, physics - anything.

Stuff has to come from somewhere, of course, but I still think that you could handle the origins of life as a distinct part of it, but that discussion has been had many times in other threads :D, but I'm in a distinctly small minority. My point, which I didn't make clear, was more that any book is going to have you have to incorporate the stance of the book ( evolution, creationism or ID either religious ID or nonreligious ID) into your answers.

If you, as I said before, break out of the "and this was made for the homeschool market" box, you'll find a WEALTH of materials that are much broader in scope, and which focus not on the "and where did we all come from" argument so much as the "and this is a cell, how does it work, and what happens from there" approach. Rigorous science doesn't focus on the hang ups of HS boards, it focuses on learning the mechanics of the [I]known.

There is a GREAT bio book called "Exploring the Way Life Works - The Science of Biology" by Mahon Hoagland and Bert Dodson by Jones and Bartlett publishers. ISBN # 0-7637-1688-X (softcover). There is a "popular press" version (not what I'm talking about) and this one, which is designed for college freshmen, non-science majors. It is engaging, colorful, and has answers in the back. It can be supplemented with any lab program you want (we used Digital Frog). The only bad thing I would say is that it is not microbiology, but ecological biology, so if you want your kid to take the SAT II-M exam (vs the SAT II-E exam), it is not the text for you.

a

Thanks. I think she'll need microbiology because she's interested in DNA research, but this might be something my dd would be able to use if I end up having to buy two. I've been leaning to one of the more advanced Campbell's texts, possibly supplemented by a Christian one, but I think she'll end up doing only one text.