For those who do ESL with the kids

[CleoQc]

My kids are pretty fluent in English. French is our first language. French needs a lot of grammar, so they've got that covered.
I'm wondering how much formal English courses I should have them do?
They're going through a Sonlight core, so English reading is covered. They have outside activities that cover oral English (immersion). They do write in English for some of their courses at home. But I never deal with English grammar.

I've noticed recently that my DD makes the dreaded it's/its mistake. She has problems with the 's' at the end of third person singular verbs. I could do nothing and she would eventually get it (I think)

My son is more fluent (he's also older by 3 years). Does he need any English formal courses by then?

[CleoQc]

I should add that my DS will eventually need to pass AP English. Five years down the road, I think.

[cathmom]

it's/its is easy to correct. Can you replace it with "it is" and have it make sense? Then it is "it's".

It might be enough just to correct errors they continually make. Grammar is not a big deal in American schools. I never studied any actual grammar after 8th grade. Is it on the AP exam?

[CleoQc]

it's/its is easy to correct. Can you replace it with "it is" and have it make sense? Then it is "it's".

I know that, she knows that too. She just keeps forgetting about it...

[cathmom]

I know that, she knows that too. She just keeps forgetting about it...

many native English speakers do too!

[Ester Maria]

Sort of, but as we live in the anglophone environment, it's a lot easier to simply study English at a native level, encourage reading in English and include anglophone materials for other areas of the curriculum, whether as supplements or as core materials.

I would really recommend doing a formal study of the English grammar, which you mentioned you did not cover. It helped to clear up on a lot of things, including some of the typical mistakes in spelling (its/it's; their/they're/their, etc.). Other than that, I would simply have them read in English and continue with some form of "English studies", if you don't homeschool them bilingually throughout the entire curriculum. That, combined with regular practice of spoken English and with some media exposure, should do it. You do seem to use a lot of anglophone materials, though, I don't think you should worry about their English level, since they seem to be using materials aimed at native kids. Just make sure they read good literature in English, you can create literature courses based on those that native kids their age take (but with lesser works, obviously, if it's ESL).

[Nan in Mass]

Cleo, what about specialized vocabulary for various subjects, like history and science? Can they pick that up fast enough to keep up if they go to an English speaking college? Examples might be girdling and snag (natural history), or common and skid (history). These words have one meaning in regular English and another in science or history. I'm sure you are more aware of how many of these don't overlap in French and English (due to Latin or something) than I am, but it might be something to consider. I'm not sure teaching a whole year of a subject in English is the right way to go about fixing the problem, but they might want to consider taking a lightish load the first semester so they can spend the necessary time looking up the specialized vocabulary. Or maybe they will go to a francophone college and not have to worry about it.
Just a thought.
Nan

[cathmom]

Girdling and snag? Skid in a history connotation? Never heard of them and I am a well-educated native English speaker LOL!

[CleoQc]

Cleo, what about specialized vocabulary for various subjects, like history and science? Nan

Well, most of the subjects that are important to them are done in English to start with. So I'm not worried about that aspect. I just don't know what to expect on a SAT or AP exam, as far as English is concerned. They both write fairly well, and at an appropriate age level, even though it's their second language.

I'm just without a clue as to what they should be learning that would be English specific (well, for my daughter, not yet, this is mainly for my son, reaching high school soon...)

[Nan in Mass]

Are you a city person? Where we live (more rural), many children know about girdling trees, know to watch for snags in the water and would therefore have no trouble knowing that snags are standing dead trees without much in the way of branches, know that a wagon without wheels is a skid, and know that many towns have a common in the middle of them. Now that I've put them in context, you might recognize some of them, too. Out of curiousity, I asked my 15yo and he knew them once I put them in context - girdle a tree, drag a skid, watch out for snags, town common. He had trouble with them out of context. I know I knew them at that age because we lived in a town with a common, there was a skid in the basement of my uncle's camp, we were told to be careful not to girdle trees if we tied ropes to them, and we were put in the front of the rowboat to watch for snags. I guess it depends where you live. I pulled all four of the words from a natural history book I am reading today.
-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Can you get some prep books and have a look at the questions? I never took the English AP, but I remember the English SAT needing a good vocabulary. My spelling was absolutely miserable, and I did fine, so I don't think you have to worry about that. I probably did know not to fall into some of the typical English grammar traps, like lay/lie, I wish I were, Jerry and me went to the store, etc. I remember thinking that the SAT was designed to determine how well educated one's parents were, but that was at a time when grammar wasn't taught in public schools.
-Nan

[cathmom]

I think those are all New England words! I did recognize town common, I may have read before that a wagon without wheels is called a skid, but I still never heard of the other two. I am not a city person. I grew up in southern NJ.

[Nan in Mass]

I bet you are right. I am definately a New Englander GRIN. And the book I was reading was about New England forests. And the author obviously lived in New England. You don't have town commons?
-Nan

[jld]

Nan, is that what we in the Midwest might call a town square?

[Nan in Mass]

Maybe. Is it an open area with a church at one end and big houses around it, big trees in it, that used to be used as common grazing ground? Or at least is modelled after that idea?

[jld]

Yeah, I think that's it.

[CleoQc]

I knew about town commons, snags and skids, btw ;-)

[Nan in Mass]

Maybe they are northern words then? What about girdling a tree? (just curious GRIN)

[CleoQc]

Maybe they are northern words then? What about girdling a tree? (just curious GRIN)

Isn't it when you put a rope around a tree, and the bark grows over the rope?

[cathmom]

Yeah, what is girdling a tree?????? :lol:

[Nan in Mass]

It is when you take the bark off in a strip all the way around a tree. It is a way to kill a tree. Sometimes it gets done accidentally, but people do it intentionally, too, as a way to season wood. Some sorts of bugs girdle trees, and deer and pocipines and beavers do it all the time to young ones. You can use the word girdle just to mean putting something around something else, too, but that wouldn't be the scientific term. Used in reference to trees, it definately carries a sense of doom.
-Nan

[cathmom]

I guess we don't murder trees in NJ! (just kidding) :D

[Nan in Mass]

Maybe I'll move to NJ. It is not a happy thing. Sigh.