Mothers of both boys and girls - please talk me down

[Doran]

I'm fuming here. Or I was a few minutes ago, anyway. I've actually calmed down quite a bit. But, I'm wondering how any of you tolerate and/or manage disrespectfulness from kids who are visiting your house, or from boys in general.

This story is too convoluted to give details (believe me, I attempted to type it out and ultimately decided it was useless to try), but the upshot is I have a six year old boy with me this afternoon - along with his two older brothers. Six year old wanted to stay home while the older kids went to the park, because his older brother had given him use of his PSP (Gameboy thingie) - a rare treat for the little guy. Little guy played peacefully for a time, but then he got to a place in the game where he was stuck. I didn't even really know that anything was wrong until I looked over and saw that he was sitting there pouting. When I asked, "Hey, are you okay?" I received no reply. Now obviously, he was mad/sad, but in my house, I expect my kids to answer me when I ask a question. So, I said as much. Little guy expressed, through gritted teeth that he was mad at the game.

My reply, "Gosh, I'm sorry. But, I already told you when you decided to stay here that I'm no help on those games because I don't know how to use them."

Little guy snaps, "Then why are you even talking to me!"

I did not hold my tongue. I was angry and it showed, but I did not yell. I looked at this boy and said, "That was rude. I don't tolerate rudeness in my house. You need to speak to me respectfully, or you can just go home."

I admit it, I have issues with this kid. I don't fully agree with how his parents parent him. I feel he is coddled and allowed to get away with murder, although his Aspie brother certainly sets a precedent for imposing anger on his surroundings. Ugh. I would be MORTIFIED if I knew my girls had acted out like that at someone else's house.

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:


Doran

[Lisawa]

You didn’t yell... and you were honest about rules in your house... I think what you did is fine.

Its hard when you are dealing with others children... they are so different than your own... and such a rude and angry response form someone so young... He needed it snuffed out of him...

Hopefully he will learn... but most important.... you did the right thing... Nothing wrong at all...

[CalicoKat]

I'm fuming here. Or I was a few minutes ago, anyway. I've actually calmed down quite a bit. But, I'm wondering how any of you tolerate and/or manage disrespectfulness from kids who are visiting your house, or from boys in general.

This story is too convoluted to give details (believe me, I attempted to type it out and ultimately decided it was useless to try), but the upshot is I have a six year old boy with me this afternoon - along with his two older brothers. Six year old wanted to stay home while the older kids went to the park, because his older brother had given him use of his PSP (Gameboy thingie) - a rare treat for the little guy. Little guy played peacefully for a time, but then he got to a place in the game where he was stuck. I didn't even really know that anything was wrong until I looked over and saw that he was sitting there pouting. When I asked, "Hey, are you okay?" I received no reply. Now obviously, he was mad/sad, but in my house, I expect my kids to answer me when I ask a question. So, I said as much. Little guy expressed, through gritted teeth that he was mad at the game.

My reply, "Gosh, I'm sorry. But, I already told you when you decided to stay here that I'm no help on those games because I don't know how to use them."

Little guy snaps, "Then why are you even talking to me!"

I did not hold my tongue. I was angry and it showed, but I did not yell. I looked at this boy and said, "That was rude. I don't tolerate rudeness in my house. You need to speak to me respectfully, or you can just go home."

I admit it, I have issues with this kid. I don't fully agree with how his parents parent him. I feel he is coddled and allowed to get away with murder, although his Aspie brother certainly sets a precedent for imposing anger on his surroundings. Ugh. I would be MORTIFIED if I knew my girls had acted out like that at someone else's house.

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:


Doran
a blunt answer gets a blunt reply.

You did great. Your response is a typical response for his behaviour that he should expect from anyone. I would be upset too if I showed concern then I got "bit."

It's really a "Do Unto Others" scenario.

[Mama Lynx]

I have all boys. While yes, they might respond like that, 1) I would want to know; 2) I would be mortified; and 3) said child would definitely be subjected to appropriate disciplinary action.

However, your response was perfect. My younger sons do get that way at time, and that is the same way I respond to them (followed by sending them to their rooms). You were not wrong to expect an answer in the first place. You were write to explain what you expected in terms of behavior, and to let him know that anything less would not be tolerated.

[Sue G in PA]

First of all, you handled it beautifully. You are entertaining him in your home...he should treat you w/ respect. I ask about him being an Aspie b/c I know that my 6yo Aspie has a difficult time "holding his tongue" so to speak. Aspie kids sometimes just don't realize that what they are saying is disrespectful or mean. It's hard to explain. But, for example, my ds6 is typically very respectful to people. Often, however, he will just say exactly what he is thinking...even if it sounds rude (simply b/c he just doesn't "get" that it is really rude, KWIM?). One day, we were at Chuck E. Cheese (a pizza joint for kids) and ran into a friend and her kids and her neighbor. My ds was playing a game and the neighbor told my ds he should pick up his tokens so they didn't get stolen. Ds ignored him. He said it again and ds looked up from his game and said, "Shut up!". To ds...this man was simply distracting him from his game and he wanted him to stop.

Anyway, you didn't ask for that novel. I'm sorry. You did handle this perfectly. It just sounded like something my Aspie kid would have said.

[kRenee]

You weren't wrong, but being the mother of a 'grouchy bear' type of boy, I would have expressed sympathy with his fustration but not reiterated that he chose to stay home when you had said you wouldn't be able to help him. My son gets so mad when I do that and therefore I've learned not to!

He shouldn't have answered you like that but I can understand how he was trying to deal with his fustration. He's 6 and has a long way to go in learning to deal with his innate anger.

[PariSarah]

I've been in the same situation you're in--almost the exact same. Lacking only the older brother who'd given him the pouting-inducing technology. Everything else is the same--rude visitor, not-my-style parenting, the whole ten or twelve yards.

You. did. fine. I would even go so far as to say you did the right thing, by him and by you. If you're lucky, like I was, it will set the tone for the rest of his visit with you, and he will love coming to his Aunt Doran's because her house is the place where he doesn't waste all his time being miserable. It's amazing how they really will choose to be miserable for hours instead of doing things the easy way and moving on with their day.

As to the not answering bit, that was one of our big issues. I had to insist on my Happy Guest answering me, politely, no matter what. "Happy Guest, I asked you a question." "I don't know." "Yes, you do. Answer me now." "Yeah." "Say 'Yes, ma'am' or 'Yes, Miss Sarah.'" "Yes." "Say 'Yes, ma'am' or 'Yes, Miss Sarah." "Yes ma'am." "Thank you. Now say it without the attitude."

And so on.

Fortunately a friend of mine was training her . . . German Shepherd? Great Dane? I don't know, some really big dog . . . at the time, and she was telling me about all she had to go through. Couldn't let him precede her through the door, because then he'd think he was the alpha dog. Couldn't let him do this, because then he wouldn't follow her instructions about that. I just had to put "Answering Me Politely" under the heading of "Things I Must Require Of Him No Matter What," along with "Coming When I Call Him," "Buckling His Seat Belt," and "Insisting That He Get On The Phone When His Mother Wants To Talk To Him."

[Mrs. H.]

Three boys here, ages 7, 5, and 4. They don't talk to me or dh that way, and I think your response was perfect. I would say the same thing to a child visiting in my home.

Forgot to add that I have girls, too. My 10 year old definitely doesn't speak to me this way, and the baby doesn't either.

[Snickerdoodle]

I didn't even really know that anything was wrong until I looked over and saw that he was sitting there pouting. When I asked, "Hey, are you okay?" I received no reply. Now obviously, he was mad/sad, but in my house, I expect my kids to answer me when I ask a question.

This is the part that confuses me a bit. I'm not trying to be confrontational, this is a genuine question. If the boy was pouting, and in an emotional moment, when you asked him your question and he did not immediately reply, why did you not give him a minute and then come back to it?

I mean, perhaps he was processing a moment of anger, frustration or what not. Do you think that if you gave him a minute of space he might have responded differently? Perhaps he didn't know exactly how he felt right that minute and moreover to explain it to a person who isn't his normal confidante was a bit overwhelming?

[abbeyej]

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls?
No.
(I typed more, but realize that "no" pretty much covered it.)

[PariSarah]

This is the part that confuses me a bit. I'm not trying to be confrontational, this is a genuine question. If the boy was pouting, and in an emotional moment, when you asked him your question and he did not immediately reply, why did you not give him a minute and then come back to it?

I mean, perhaps he was processing a moment of anger, frustration or what not. Do you think that if you gave him a minute of space he might have responded differently? Perhaps he didn't know exactly how he felt right that minute and moreover to explain it to a person who isn't his normal confidante was a bit overwhelming?

But . . . I don't know. This seems to be overthinking it a bit.

When someone expresses concern for you, you answer. Maybe you don't "confide," maybe you decline to elaborate, maybe you just say, "I'm okay, thanks." (And if the person continues to press, then she's the one being rude, not you.) But you don't snarl. Answering with a snarl is rude. If you did that in your office, classroom, church, grocery store, whatever, you would owe the person at whom you snarled an apology.

Don't you think?

Sure, adolescence is the time when you learn codes of behavior, and one oughtn't hold a grudge against a kid for messing up a time or two. And, sure, sometimes your emotions are so overwhelming that you forget to do what you know is right. And so one oughtn't hold a child to standards that are too strict even for adults.

But one ought definitely give the kid a chance to learn how not to be rude.

[Pamela H in Texas]

>>>>>>>>>>Quote:
I didn't even really know that anything was wrong until I looked over and saw that he was sitting there pouting. When I asked, "Hey, are you okay?" I received no reply. Now obviously, he was mad/sad, but in my house, I expect my kids to answer me when I ask a question.<<<<<<<

This is the part that confuses me a bit. I'm not trying to be confrontational, this is a genuine question. If the boy was pouting, and in an emotional moment, when you asked him your question and he did not immediately reply, why did you not give him a minute and then come back to it?

Though I agree with the other posts that you did fine, simply telling him the rules in your home firmly, I do agree with the above. At 6yrs old, my son SO would not have answered you. Because kids are all different and it should be okay to process things in different ways, I would more likely have responded at THIS point with a "oh, you're not ready to talk? Okay, if you need me, I'll be dusting the livingroom."

6yos are just at such different developmental levels and they process things so differently. It takes time and training to get them to be respectful OVER involved in their own emotions.

Now this kid went ALL the way inappropriate when he responded to you ugly and I would have definitely put him in his place at that point, but just a consideration when dealing with other people's kids: I really try to be as laid back as possible within reason.

[Jan in SC]

I think he was out of line and rude. If he were my child there would be a discussion about respect and politeness.

However, I see you mentioned there were other issues. Did you really want him to go with the others? I think I would have taken 5 minutes to try and help him even if I didn't have a clue how to do it. (AFTER I set him straight about being respectful!)

I don't think I would get that upset about the whole thing. Yes, he was rude. He is 6. Six year olds make mistakes. You corrected it. I'm really surprised it upset you that much.

[j.griff]

ITA with Snickerdoodle. And *I* wouldn't have my children in another's home without me, for this very reason.
IME, others' expectations of DC in general are not always a good thing, when expecting them of child guests.
Some of you may require children to say "ma'am" or "sir" when speaking to you, but I don't require that of my children, and I would find it rude of another adult to require *my* child to address them in such a manner.

My oldest was 4yo, and she spent the night with FIL and step-MIL, while I attended an event with friends. DH was deployed, and DD and I just went "home" for the deployment. DD could have just stayed with my mom, but since time was short I thought that FIL and step-MIL might enjoy an opportunity to bond with dd. My mother fed her dinner, and took her to FIL's so that I could leave early. FIL and step-MIL forced my dd to eat a whole hot dog, without knowing that she'd already eaten dinner (they didn't ask, but mother HAD told them that she'd just had dinner, so I don't know WHY they didn't retain that info)- just because "Those are the rules in our house". :mad::angry::crying:


Needless to say, DD has never spent time in their home without my presence again.

[Snickerdoodle]

But . . . I don't know. This seems to be overthinking it a bit.

When someone expresses concern for you, you answer. Maybe you don't "confide," maybe you decline to elaborate, maybe you just say, "I'm okay, thanks." (And if the person continues to press, then she's the one being rude, not you.) But you don't snarl. Answering with a snarl is rude. If you did that in your office, classroom, church, grocery store, whatever, you would owe the person at whom you snarled an apology.

Don't you think?



Yes, I think the boy answered rudely. But I think not getting an immediate reply and then forcing the issue wasn't the best plan for getting a polite reply. It was *in my opinion* a set up for the rudeness. Not that it excuses his rude reply.

The boy is a guest, and no matter how much you don't like someone else's parenting, you mustn't take it out on their kids. If the boy didn't give an immediate reply, probably best to let it go in the heat of the moment. Later, when the mood is changed you can talk about how "in our house we do it this way."

If the boy and the host have an issue between them that puts the host in a position where she feels ill will towards him, then perhaps she should reconsider hosting him. I know I have feelings about one or two potential guests that preclude me from inviting them without their parents. Do you know what I mean?

[Antonia]

Think you answered your own question when you said his parents let him get away with murder. He's obviously allowed to be rude and disrespectful. You handled it very well. I have a boy and a girl. I don't think gender has much to do with it; I expect both of my kids to be polite and respectful, and they are.

[Doran]

I've been in the same situation you're in--almost the exact same. Lacking only the older brother who'd given him the pouting-inducing technology. Everything else is the same--rude visitor, not-my-style parenting, the whole ten or twelve yards.

You. did. fine. I would even go so far as to say you did the right thing, by him and by you. If you're lucky, like I was, it will set the tone for the rest of his visit with you, and he will love coming to his Aunt Doran's because her house is the place where he doesn't waste all his time being miserable.

[snip]...





I adore this child's mother. She is a very close friend, and for the most part, I completely respect the way she parents her children. EXCEPT FOR THIS PART!

Sue G. asked if maybe the six year old is also an Aspie, and I can't answer that. Could be. But, I know his parents have never, ever mentioned that as a possibility, and given that they are dealing with one, you'd think they'd see the signs if little brother was walking the same path. Whether he has learned his behavior from his Aspie brother is a whole different ball of wax. The middle brother has a much more agreeable personality, I can say that with conviction.

What I think is that in working so hard to model appropriate behavior for their kids, these parents (particularly Mom) has allowed herself to become something of a doormat when it comes to the way her children speak to her. She said to me once that she and her husband figure there is no point in them getting all worked up -- that it's best if one party exhibits maturity even while the other (kid) party is behaving rudely. Don't get me wrong, they do discipline their kids. But, I just don't see the in-the-moment kind of reacting that I would have. Instead, I see Mom saying things back to her boys in the "appropriate" tone.

Boy growls, "Where's my lunch???" Mom says in a pleasing tone, "Mom, is my lunch ready yet please?" There is instruction built into the rephrasing that Mom offers, but there is no firm, angry, reaction like mine -- "I'm sorry, that was very rude and you may not speak to me that way." Another example: Little guy joins in on a group board game already in session (game includes adults). Game is Luck of the Draw (if you happen to know it) which requires no artistic skill. Little guy climbs onto his mother's lap and says he wants to play. No problem. First round of play for him, he has a meltdown because he is unable to draw whatever it is that the card requires. All the participants explain that it doesn't matter, it's not about the drawing, just do your best and it will be great. Little guy continues to melt and scream. Basically it looks like a tantrum. Mom leaves the game to take little guy off where she can discipline/console him. My interpretation: Little guy just got Mom all to himself, which is what he most wanted.

Up until today, there has been no reason for little guy to be here with me without his mother. But, I've been around him, and his older brothers alongside their mother, at our house or theirs, a great deal. I've seen this little boy act out repeatedly in ways that I simply could. not. tolerate. And, I can't figure out why they allow it. I can't understand why they don't stop the child(ren) in his tracks, tell him firmly, to his face that he may not speak to them in that manner, and send him off to his room alone, immediately.

They aren't my kids. And, I am the first to admit that it's easiest to overlook our own flaws while picking them apart in others. Maybe someday I'll have the nerve to speak to my friend directly about this.

Doran

[WendyK]

Well I'm going to be the totally unpopular person here. He may have not been very polite, but perhaps his silence was more polite than what might have come out of his mouth without ample time to cool off and calm down. And then there are other factors. You aren't his mother, he may feel less comfortable just coming right out with it. I don't think this is the worst thing he could have done.

I too have "rules" in the house, but those rules aren't for guests (to a certain point obviously). I don't consider it my job to tell someone else's kid how to handle his anger. This is different, obviously, if you watch him frequently in a care giver capacity. But otherwise, unless he is saying Eff you or trashing your house or beating on your dog, I personally would have let it go.

And I don't mean this as harshly as it is all coming out. :)

[Quiver0f10]

I think your response was right on. I have 7 boys and none would dare speak to an adult that way and I wouldn't allow it, period.

Now, to each other is another thing LOL :D

[Doran]

...Did you really want him to go with the others? I think I would have taken 5 minutes to try and help him even if I didn't have a clue how to do it. (AFTER I set him straight about being respectful!)

I don't think I would get that upset about the whole thing. Yes, he was rude. He is 6. Six year olds make mistakes. You corrected it. I'm really surprised it upset you that much.


Yes. You are right, there are other issues, which are embedded in all the stuff that was too complicated to type out for my OP. I can't get into it all here because neither of us has the time :) (you can see my reply to PariSarah if you'd like to have a bit more background that has nothing to do with the specifics of today). But, to just clarify one bit here -- I didn't rub the kid's nose in it like it sounded in the OP. I said to him, in kindness which was paraphrased out of the original version of this story, something along the lines of, "Gee, I'm sorry you're stuck. Like I said, I'm no help at all because I just don't know anything about these games." Whence came his reply.

Yes, he's six. I walked away from our exchange by saying, "You know what, I'll give you some space. You don't have to talk to me right now, but you may not be rude to me." Within just a few minutes, things simmered right down. It does look as though I was really upset, but it wasn't as bad as all that. But, you're correct that there are larger issues going on in my head which undoubtedly affected the tone of my post.

Doran

[PariSarah]

It sounds like you're pretty sure that he has a behavior problem that his parents aren't addressing well. I'm convinced. I don't think you can do anything about it without being asked, but I think you're probably diagnosing the situation accurately.

It sounds like you're pretty sure that you did the right thing by telling him that he was being rude. I'm right there with ya.

What aren't you sure about?

Or is it just that you can't "wind down" from a confrontation like that quickly? (I'm with you on that, too! :D)

[Whisperlily]

I'm going to skip a little bit... I've glanced at the other replies but haven't really *read* them.

The original question, are boys really different than girls. I have two of each, and I'll say yes. They really are different.

Girls can elaborate, they can talk through what they're feeling. They have more complex communication skills, and are better able to verbally convey emotions. If you asked one of my girls what was wrong, she'd turn to you and have a conversation about what and why, and how she was feeling.

My boys wouldn't. They don't always automatically know how to express what they're feeling very effectively. It doesn't mean they should be disrespectful, but they do sometimes feel backed into a corner, and if something's wrong, they generally don't wanna talk about how they FEEL about it, they want to FIX it.

While he needs to learn how his words sound to other people, and how to handle situations like that, there's a good chance he hasn't mastered it yet. To him, if you're asking him what's wrong, you want to know how to fix it. I'll bet, in his little mind, he knew you couldn't help with the game, so his way of processing the frustration was to sit and think with a scowl/pout. When you asked what was wrong, he probably thought you were going to try and FIX the problem. That's just what guys do. If you're responding, you're trying to help.

Now, obviously, the child needs training on how to respond appropriately. But that DOES take more time and training with boys than with girls. He has to learn, but I can almost bet he can't handle that situation in any way you're used to if you don't have boys. They DO think on a totally different track.

I'm so GLAD I have both! I've got a friend with only girls and one with only boys. Neither understand each other's children, and each appreciates my children of the same sex in a better way than they do the opposite sex. Funny how that goes!

[Jill, OK]

...they don't speak to me that way, either. (Range of ages, too.)

I don't know that I'd have said the *exact* same thing to a kid at my house, but I'd likely have said *something*.

[Jan in SC]

I completely get it with long processing time. For some reason I can "go at it" with my family and not think twice about it but the minute I have some confrontational situation with a friend or (especially) a stranger I can't stop thinking and replaying it.

I sound very obsessive!

Complete side note & slight hijack!

It's also hard for me to interpret well what others are saying on the internet. I read and reread and then stew and think, then read again. I often see what comes across to me as bullying or a really emotional reaction that probably isn't.

Anyway... enough of my babbling...

Send those kids home and have a bubble bath!

[Oak Knoll Mom]

You weren't wrong, but being the mother of a 'grouchy bear' type of boy, I would have expressed sympathy with his fustration but not reiterated that he chose to stay home when you had said you wouldn't be able to help him. My son gets so mad when I do that and therefore I've learned not to!
:iagree: From what you said, it sounds like he didn't ask you for help with the game. He, of course, should not have responded so rudely to you, but I can see why. If I were the little boy I'd be thinking, "well, um, I didn't ask for your help." (Just my self-righteous, inner snot-nosed brat coming out. ;) )

[Doran]

I completely get it with long processing time. For some reason I can "go at it" with my family and not think twice about it but the minute I have some confrontational situation with a friend or (especially) a stranger I can't stop thinking and replaying it.

I sound very obsessive!

Complete side note & slight hijack!

It's also hard for me to interpret well what others are saying on the internet. I read and reread and then stew and think, then read again. I often see what comes across to me as bullying or a really emotional reaction that probably isn't.

Anyway... enough of my babbling...

Send those kids home and have a bubble bath!


The beasties are gone! :D


I have to explain the situation just a bit more, though, in my own defense. Yes, there is baggage, if we want to call it that. My better judgment told me not to have the little guy here today at all because I knew things like this might occur. I've seen it SO MUCH at their house, where I just have to hold my tongue because I am there with the boy's parent(s), so it's not my place. And, it's not just the little one. His oldest brother is very much culpable as well. Middle brother clicks well with my girls, but today, it turned into a package deal.

Some specifics: I had to be the one to inflict sadness on little guy last night when his brothers were allowed to stay the night here, but I had to tell him he could not stay, too. He was in tears, and I felt so bad, but I knew better than to have him here overnight.

Then, this morning, when his dad called and told me that little guy's plans for today were off and was it possible for me to have little guy over, I actually said "No" (with a simple explanation, of course). The plan at that point was to have the other boys go home much earlier than expected - at 11:00 a.m. - so that little guy could have his brothers at home for some company. But, when they heard that news, the kids (my two and the visiting boys) pleaded for more time. Promised that they'd make sure little guy was included. Promised that oldest brother would let little guy play a coveted game on his PSP, which would keep little guy occupied for hours. You know how THAT part of the story ended.:001_rolleyes:

I felt sympathy for the dad and the little boy. I had planned to have the two older boys for the day anyhow, so there was no expectation of a quiet day, or of getting much done. So, really, I thought, what was one more kid? It would make little guy so happy. And, it would give Dad a little break. So, I caved, and paid the price later. The incident I've described was only one of several. It's been quite the day. I'm headed out for a walk any minute now and will have a glass of wine when I return.

But, for the record in closing here, I'll tell you what I've decided. I figure I'll parent these boys the way I want to in MY house, just as I might my own children (who were six once, I'm pretty sure). Here, they will abide by MY rules. They'll either learn that not all parents are doormats. Or they'll figure out that they never want to hang out here again. Either of which is fine with me! :lol:


Doran

[Whisperlily]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/Shynie/5279759.jpg
(((Doran)))

[Texas T]

But, for the record in closing here, I'll tell you what I've decided. I figure I'll parent these boys the way I want to in MY house, just as I might my own children (who were six once, I'm pretty sure). Here, they will abide by MY rules. They'll either learn that not all parents are doormats. Or they'll figure out that they never want to hang out here again. Either of which is fine with me! :lol:


Doran
:iagree:
Doran, I read what you wrote, empathized, understood, etc. I think your last paragraph said it all right there. That's the way I do it here in my home, and I agree with you. I have, on numerous occasions, stated to children visiting our home that "You may be allowed to do that at your home, but these are the rules in our home." Honestly, from what I've seen, it brings a certain peace and structure. I let them know they are welcome but have to obey by my rules. The last time I said the above quote, though, had to do with certain vulgar talk I heard on my front porch followed by an older child abusing a younger child. That just won't fly here.

Teresa

[Rhonda in TX]

First of all, you handled it beautifully. You are entertaining him in your home...he should treat you w/ respect. I ask about him being an Aspie b/c I know that my 6yo Aspie has a difficult time "holding his tongue" so to speak. Aspie kids sometimes just don't realize that what they are saying is disrespectful or mean. It's hard to explain. But, for example, my ds6 is typically very respectful to people. Often, however, he will just say exactly what he is thinking...even if it sounds rude (simply b/c he just doesn't "get" that it is really rude, KWIM?). One day, we were at Chuck E. Cheese (a pizza joint for kids) and ran into a friend and her kids and her neighbor. My ds was playing a game and the neighbor told my ds he should pick up his tokens so they didn't get stolen. Ds ignored him. He said it again and ds looked up from his game and said, "Shut up!". To ds...this man was simply distracting him from his game and he wanted him to stop.

Anyway, you didn't ask for that novel. I'm sorry. You did handle this perfectly. It just sounded like something my Aspie kid would have said.

I wondered the same thing. This is exactly how my Aspie would respond. Mortifying, but true. And you handled it exactly right.

[Ellie]

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:

This is not a gender issue. This is a child-rearing issue. Children of both genders will behave rudely if they are not taught properly, and even then, the best of them will sometimes slip.

I think you handled it properly; I'm a little puzzled as to why you think that this is a boy issue, but that's a separate issue :-)

[Rhonda in TX]

The beasties are gone! :D



Please don't refer to children as "beasties". As the parent of a child who can be more difficult than you can imagine, this offends me greatly. I'm sure other people have criticized my son and my parenting. But to call them beasties, well, that's just... I have no words.

I recommend you don't ever have these children at your house again. You will be doing them and yourself a favor.

[Joanne]

Doran,

Over the years, I've had some kids that for whatever reason "bug" me. Their percieved flaws for whatever reason bug me more than the flaws of other kids. We don't *click* and they drain me. It's difficult. It sounds like this child is like that for you. It's ok, it is what it is. But since you know that, and your instincts told you "no", I encourage you to listen to those instincts.

I admit it, I have issues with this kid. I don't fully agree with how his parents parent him.

Technically, it sounds like the problem you have is with how the parents parent his particular personality? More specifically, you think he's indulged and that it exacerbates the most irritating aspects of his personality?

In the situation you describe, I think I would have simply left the child alone with his feelings. Unhappy feelings are acceptable here. Inappropriate expression of mad/unhappy is not. I think insinuating that he essentially caused his own unhappiness set up the rude response on his end. It was rude, but it was also understandable. When you confronted the look on his face, he wasn't doing anything wrong. You then said something to make him feel *worse* and that wasn't productive.

I'm sorry that you don't click with this kid. I've had to let clients go before (very few, but one is a lot!) over a mis-match like this.

{{hugs}} I hope I was respectful and gentle in what I was trying to say. I respect you and your posts very much.

[BizyPenguin]

That kiddo was rude and you did absolutely nothing wrong replying the way you did. I would have said the same thing. I would go a step further, though, and mention the incident to his parents. I've been around disrepectful girls too, so I don't think it's a gender thing.

[Danestress]

Doran,

Over the years, I've had some kids that for whatever reason "bug" me. Their percieved flaws for whatever reason bug me more than the flaws of other kids. We don't *click* and they drain me. It's difficult. It sounds like this child is like that for you. It's ok, it is what it is. But since you know that, and your instincts told you "no", I encourage you to listen to those instincts.



Technically, it sounds like the problem you have is with how the parents parent his particular personality? More specifically, you think he's indulged and that it exacerbates the most irritating aspects of his personality?

In the situation you describe, I think I would have simply left the child alone with his feelings. Unhappy feelings are acceptable here. Inappropriate expression of mad/unhappy is not. I think insinuating that he essentially caused his own unhappiness set up the rude response on his end. It was rude, but it was also understandable. When you confronted the look on his face, he wasn't doing anything wrong. You then said something to make him feel *worse* and that wasn't productive.

I'm sorry that you don't click with this kid. I've had to let clients go before (very few, but one is a lot!) over a mis-match like this.

{{hugs}} I hope I was respectful and gentle in what I was trying to say. I respect you and your posts very much.

I agree. I think it was rude of a six year old not to answer you. And then his further response was totally unacceptable.

But I personally wouldn't have pushed him in the first place. Yes, he should have answered. But probably the reason he didn't was that he anticipated you saying exactly what you did say when he finally told you what he was upset about. Which doesn't make his rudeness okay.

[abbeyej]

Please don't refer to children as "beasties".


I know this is sensitive for you... I took it -- and hope Doran meant it -- as a somewhat affectionate if rather exhausted term... I know I refer to my own children as "monsters" and "hellions" occasionally, but in the same tone that I call them "monkey" and "sweetie" and "cuteling", etc.

Perhaps I'm being overly generous, and I know Doran is wrung out from the day... But from the little I know of her on the board, I didn't assume it was meant so very cruelly...

[Doran]

Please don't refer to children as "beasties". As the parent of a child who can be more difficult than you can imagine, this offends me greatly. I'm sure other people have criticized my son and my parenting. But to call them beasties, well, that's just... I have no words.

I recommend you don't ever have these children at your house again. You will be doing them and yourself a favor.

I'm truly sorry if I was offensive. But, I have been known to call my own children "beasties" (said, generally, with a distinct Jack Sparrow accent). Given the limitations of this medium we're communicating through, which does not show emotion, you could not possibly understand the heart behind my use of that term. If you could see just how far my tongue was embedded into my cheek (and you did, I hope, note the big green smiley I added within my post), and if you could see how I act around these kids - have acted, will act - perhaps you would be able to find the humor there rather than a criticism that was not intended. Again, my apologies.

Doran

[abbeyej]

I'm a little puzzled as to why you think that this is a boy issue, but that's a separate issue :-)

Yes, I agree.

[Doran]

I'm a little puzzled as to why you think that this is a boy issue, but that's a separate issue :-)

I think Whisperlily did a great job of helping me understand the gender aspect. She pretty much nailed it, imo, and helped me see how I might have handled the situation differently. I thanked her privately, but forgot to actually post that in direct response.

Doran

[abbeyej]

I think Whisperlily did a great job of helping me understand the gender aspect. She pretty much nailed it, imo, and helped me see how I might have handled the situation differently. I thanked her privately, but forgot to actually post that in direct response.

Doran

I found Whisperlily's perspective interesting, but it didn't ring true for my own children.

[Doran]

{{hugs}} I hope I was respectful and gentle in what I was trying to say. I respect you and your posts very much.


I appreciate your comments, Joanne. There is a silver lining here. Having failed to listen to my "better judgment" this time around, I will now have absolute certainty that I need to avoid having that trio of boys here again, and maybe particularly the littlest. Until today, I had nothing concrete to go on, save my experiences with these children in their own home. So, now I can decline a request to have them all come to play without any guilt whatsoever. :001_smile:

That said, I am one of a limited selection of parents who has ever been entrusted with the care of these boys at all, at least here in our town. As mentioned before, their mother and I are very good friends and, as such, I am someone she might call in the event of an emergency need for child care. If that situation arises, I will certainly step in because I don't think my behavior towards this boy was so terrible, really. He and I both got over ourselves without so much as a blip in our days. I just chose to process my feelings here to find out what I could about different points of view. (I sure got them.) But you can rest assured, when there is wiggle room to be had on the subject of another visit, I'll be wiggling my lips into a very clearly spoken, "NO!"

Doran

[Doran]

I found Whisperlily's perspective interesting, but it didn't ring true for my own children.

...at this point in my life, I won't ever have to learn how to parent boys. So, the question in my OP was really more for enrichment. :D I'll add Whisperlily's thoughts, and yours, to my cache of knowledge when it comes to being with boys and they will, perchance, help me understand differences in behavior from what I experience with my girls. Even if it just illuminates one moment of confusion or frustration, causing me to pause and think, "Oh, wait, maybe this is a boy thing (even if it's really not)," then I'll feel that I've learned something valuable today.

Doran

[Joanne]

If that situation arises, I will certainly step in because I don't think my behavior towards this boy was so terrible, really. He and I both got over ourselves without so much as a blip in our days. I just chose to process my feelings here to find out what I could about different points of view.

Ah. OK. That puts the event and posting in proper persepctive. And I don't think your behavior towards him is terrible at all, let alone "so". :-)

[Colleen]

I'm late to the game, but as one who can't resisting tossing in a couple pennies, I have to say I'm surprised at how you handled this. I certainly understand the frustration with frustrating children, but imo, you made an issue out of nothing. So the kid was sitting there pouting; who cares? His lack of initial reply would elicit an eye roll on my part, but honestly, I don't connect with the demand that he abide by your rules and answer.

I'm all for imposing house rules on guests ~ to an extent. There are some things every child who comes over here should know and respect. Other things? Not such a biggie. After all, we're more slack with adult guests, aren't we? I expect my guys to say thank you if I pass the potatoes, but if an adult fails to do so, I'm not going to point out, "In this house we say thank you when...." We just move on, right? Which is what I would've done when this little boy didn't reply. Of course it's preferable when children (and adults) answer when spoken to. My guys would have ~ and btw, I don't see this as a gender issue. But if some kid who's over for a few hours doesn't respond, whatever.

You said in a follow up:

I'll tell you what I've decided. I figure I'll parent these boys the way I want to in MY house, just as I might my own children (who were six once, I'm pretty sure). Here, they will abide by MY rules. They'll either learn that not all parents are doormats. Or they'll figure out that they never want to hang out here again. Either of which is fine with me!

Well. Okay. But truth be told, you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder about these kids and my knee-jerk reaction from the moment I started reading your initial post is that you should just opt out of having them over again.

[Karenciavo]

Are boys that much different than girls?

Boys are great, sometimes the parenting they get is not. I don't excuse bad behavior for any reason. I don't care if you're "all boy", hormonal girl, teenager, or a grumpy old man, I will call you on rudeness. I *try* not to get angry about it, but I will get in your face, in a nice way, tell you to look at me (O.K., usually I only have to do this with 5 or 6 year olds), and calmly set some boundaries. Nothing wrong with boundaries. That boy, in addition to apologizing to me and giving me a hug, would lose the PSP for the duration.

Hang in there Doran. :001_smile:

P.S.: O.K., now that I've read the whole thread after I posted I see the boys are gone, soooo, never mind.

[Colleen]

I never thought, hard-nosed parent/adult that I am, would be in the minority on something like this! But I just don't get it. A young child who isn't generally taught good manners is sitting there pouting. He doesn't answer when asked if he's okay. He's then told he has to answer. He does that, through gritted teeth. (Read: He's young. He's emotional. He's likely trying his darndest to "stuff" his anger because he knows he shouldn't explode.) He's then reminded that the only adult present can be of no help to him. So finally, he goes off.

I honestly think this kid's buttons were pushed. Should he have answered in the first place? Yes, ideally ~ but when you allow a poorly behaved child into your home you can assume "ideal" will not be the reality. Should he have spoken to Doran as he did? Definitely not! He should have been told, "Hey, settle down. It's not okay to talk to me like that. I realize now why you didn't want to talk so I'll just leave you to pout." Said with a smile. Further punishment would be out of line, imo.

[LNC]

Siblings of children on the spectrum do not need to be coddled, but they should have all of the kindness and compassion in the world. He may never have a chance to play that gameboy bc of his brother's obsession with it for all we know.

I don't think you were mean, but I know my younger children go through a lot from having disabled siblings! They don't feel sorry for themselves and aren't aware they are suffering, but they are somewhat nonetheless.

[Natalieclare]

How's that wine tasting?:D

Sometimes my favorite part of having kids over to my house is when I close the door behind them. Then I gather my kids to me, hug them tight, and sigh, "I love my family." We're just so comfortable with each other. There is a piece of me that hates trying to navigate other children's emotional mine fields. Is that terrible and anti-social or what????

Anyway, I'm sure the little incident seems much bigger for the sole reason that you actually put it into words. Just like the above paragrah doens't really characterize me and my interactions with my friends' kids and my kids' friends--it's just a little something that lurks on occasion beneath the surface.

Bathtub full yet? :leaving:

[Karenciavo]

I agree that his buttons were pushed, I would have gone over to see if he was O.K. if I really wanted to know if he was. I wouldn't have lit the fuse with an "in my house we answer" response, but I'm not going to shrug off disrespectful responses either. I think people of all ages can handle loving conversations about poor behavior, that's what I'm advocating. Redirecting the child away from the object causing anger is not a punishment, it is a useful way of getting him to move on. I can see now I wasn't very clear when I wrote "lose the PSP for the duration."

[chiguirre]

Boy growls, "Where's my lunch???" Mom says in a pleasing tone, "Mom, is my lunch ready yet please?" There is instruction built into the rephrasing that Mom offers, but there is no firm, angry, reaction like mine -- "I'm sorry, that was very rude and you may not speak to me that way." Another example: Little guy joins in on a group board game already in session (game includes adults). Game is Luck of the Draw (if you happen to know it) which requires no artistic skill. Little guy climbs onto his mother's lap and says he wants to play. No problem. First round of play for him, he has a meltdown because he is unable to draw whatever it is that the card requires. All the participants explain that it doesn't matter, it's not about the drawing, just do your best and it will be great. Little guy continues to melt and scream. Basically it looks like a tantrum. Mom leaves the game to take little guy off where she can discipline/console him. My interpretation: Little guy just got Mom all to himself, which is what he most wanted.



IMHO, this mother is following standard operating procedure for dealing with spectrum kids. If you respond angrily to every socially inappropriate thing these kids do, they'll shut down and not listen (and hopefully learn to model) the polite phrasing of their request. It takes mountains of patience to hold your tongue when your kids are disrespectful to you, but you HAVE to choose your battles. And its not 2 or 3 issues at a time, it can be 20 things you're working on improving and you have to prioritize or you'll just sink under the weight of it all. If you're lucky, not all 20 of those things will be public issues that your adult friends will know about.

Even if this 6yo is not dx on the spectrum, siblings of ASD kids are far more likely to have behavior problems than kids who don't have a spectrum disorder in the family. Autism is hard on every member of a family, not just the parents and the affected kid(s).

Doran, you have no obligation to babysit this child. At all! He's a handful and it's a lot to ask of someone to watch a kid with behavioral issues. I only leave my kids with people who I know can handle the behavioral issues and I make sure I'm paying my babysitters well. I'd chalk this up to experience, and limit my playdates with this family to times when a parent can be there.

[j.griff]

This reply sounds much more reasonable, IMO, than your previous reply. I find the idea of you getting in mine or my dc's face because you are offended by our behavior offensive in and of itself. Based on that line alone, I would never want my DC to be in your presence with out me. :) And many here seem to have very high expectations of young guests, that don't "jive" with me. I really wouldn't want many of you caring for my DC. No offense.

ETA: Not that my DC are ill behaved. Household rules are just so personal, and while I can agree with basic rules- nitpicking about manners is over the top.

[Rhonda in TX]

I'm truly sorry if I was offensive. But, I have been known to call my own children "beasties" (said, generally, with a distinct Jack Sparrow accent). Given the limitations of this medium we're communicating through, which does not show emotion, you could not possibly understand the heart behind my use of that term. If you could see just how far my tongue was embedded into my cheek (and you did, I hope, note the big green smiley I added within my post), and if you could see how I act around these kids - have acted, will act - perhaps you would be able to find the humor there rather than a criticism that was not intended. Again, my apologies.

Doran

Apology accepted. I apologize as well. I definitely know that people say things here that are misconstrued. I let my own personal feelings about this dictate my reaction, rather than see it for what it was - a humorous release of frustration after what was (I'm sure) a long day.

No hard feelings here.

[Karenciavo]

This reply sounds much more reasonable, IMO, than your previous reply. I find the idea of you getting in mine or my dc's face because you are offended by our behavior offensive in and of itself. Based on that line alone, I would never want my DC to be in your presence with out me. :) And many here seem to have very high expectations of young guests, that don't "jive" with me. I really wouldn't want many of you caring for my DC. No offense.

ETA: Not that my DC are ill behaved. Household rules are just so personal, and while I can agree with basic rules- nitpicking about manners is over the top.

I did say in a nice way :) You know, crouch down, gently say, "Hey bud, look at me." I thought not allowing disrespectful behavior was pretty universal, but you're right, if you would expect me to shrug off rudeness I'm not the babysitter for you.

[Whisperlily]

I think people of all ages can handle loving conversations about poor behavior, that's what I'm advocating.

I love this sentence. :) Slide this into any conversation about behavior issues, and it fits.

Having a loving conversation, (and the wisdom to have the right words) as our natural default response when a pet-peeve behavior arises...

Well, that's just something that's harder than it sounds. ;) I'm glad we can come here and ask about the hows/why and seek perspectives and advice to add to our toolbox of wisdom.

[j.griff]

I don't think there IS a "nice way" to get "in someone's face". That is disrespecting personal body boundaries by a mile, IMO.

[Karenciavo]

I don't think there IS a "nice way" to get "in someone's face". That is disrespecting personal body boundaries by a mile, IMO.

How about if I say get on the same level, looking at each other eye to eye, not a casual conversation from across the room, but a heart to heart because really that's what I mean. I don't mean nose to nose, thrusting my index finger into someone's chest in anger.

My last response was a little snarky and I apologize.

Karen

[j.griff]

My last response was a little snarky and I apologize.

Apology accepted, :D

How about if I say get on the same level, looking at each other eye to eye, not a casual conversation from across the room, but a heart to heart because really that's what I mean. I don't mean nose to nose, thrusting my index finger into someone's chest in anger.
That sounds much more reasonable that what you stated in your (I believe it was your) first reply.

[Cadam]

My gut reaction is that by not screaming in the first place he was controlling himself. At least in our house this is a typical male response to frustration. Knowing they can't say something nice, they say nothing. You required him to speak - thus thwarting his coping mechanism.

If you knew him better you would have recognized the signs and probably left him alone in the first place. Problem solved.

Yes he should have been polite but he is only 6yo, he has an aspie brother who is not setting a good example for how to behave (because he can't) and so I think he probably did his best. You handled it fine but if he gets that look on his face again I would let it be and allow him to cope in his own way.

just my two pennies

[lovemyboys]

I have 7 boys and none would dare speak to an adult that way and I wouldn't allow it, period.


Some dc wouldn't dare speak with that kind of rudeness to an adult. They see appropriate interactions modelled in the home between older sibs/parents and the way parents speak to each other and outside the home.

We had a boy Z on our coach-pitch baseball team who was in a hitting slump, swinging like he was holding a golf club and striking out alot. Z was mad one day and told the coach's son that *if your dad would stop pitching dog crap to me, I could hit the ball.*

At the next game, the coach's wife told Z's mom what Z had said to her son about the dad/coach. Z's mom was a bit embarrassed but howled with laughter. She apologized that he'd said it, but thought it was really funny.

It was amazing. I don't think most of the other kids on that team would ever say such a thing, heck they're only 6 or 7, most of them wouldn't even think it.

Doran, you did fine, like so many here have said. As the mom of ds who are older than 6, I think you do have to nip that kind of rude reaction and response in the bud firmly and quickly. Sometimes you help rephrase and redirect, but you can't let that stuff slide or the rudeness, taking for granted, impolite behavior just escalates. And then it goes outside the house to other people and becomes a general way of treating people. IMNSHO (!) you did him a favor, even if it was just a small moment. Otherwise, the world is full of rude little Zs running around.:tongue_smilie:

[j.griff]

Why is it acceptable for an adult to press a small child to answer a question, but it's rude if the small child who hasn't let learned self-control and is VERY upset on "foreign turf" to explode in anger at being pressed? Would you conisder a child pressing another child to "answer me" "answer me" to be rude?
"rudeness" is a matter of personal opinion, and I expect more civil behavior from adults than small children. IMO, pressing a struggling child for an answer just because that's what YOU want (and you happen to be an adult, and happen to be somewhat "in charge" of that small child) and what YOU expect from your own children is- is rude.
If an adult has such a lack of sympathy and self control (can't see what's going on, because you're seeing the situation through your own personal filter) to prevent them from pressing a small child for an answer to such a "useless" question, WHY and HOW do you expect a small child to so more restraint and give the forced answer in a pleasant tone with pleasant words?
When adults are incapable of setting a good example by walking away, or just by saying something like "I'd like to hear...", IMO, they have no right or reason to expect more of a very young child.
That's just MY take in the situation. I think a mountain was made of a molehill, I think an adult was "picking at" a child in a stressful situation, and I think that should be avoided in the future. :)

ETA: I don't think that what I said above is exactly the same scenario that played out in the OP. I was just trying to make a point, in response to so many posts about how un-acceptable a child's "rude" behavior is, and how we should not tolerate such behavior from other people's children in our homes, etc.
I do believe this child was "cornered", and repsonded with agression at feeling cornered. I still expect adults to model loving, caring, gentle correction of such children, as opposed to "nipping it in the bud". I think that many families have different ideas of what is "rude", and what is "acceptable"- and that we should not expect other people (children or adults) to follow the same "rules" that we do.

[Doran]

...We just move on, right? Which is what I would've done when this little boy didn't reply. Of course it's preferable when children (and adults) answer when spoken to. My guys would have ~ and btw, I don't see this as a gender issue. But if some kid who's over for a few hours doesn't respond, whatever.
...you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder about these kids and my knee-jerk reaction from the moment I started reading your initial post is that you should just opt out of having them over again.

I could have a chip on my shoulder. I'll take that on and admit that my reaction to this specific incident was colored by many other past experiences. And, as said above (not sure you saw that post), I will have much greater conviction about not having the three boys here again in the future. In and of itself, that feels difficult given that I know how hard it is for a mother to have someone say..."I'll take the kid who doesn't ruffle my feathers. Those other two, you'll have to find other situations for them." But, I'll do that, in more tactful terms, because I will have learned from today's episodeS, that it's not the right choice.

The other side to this story lies in all the ways I've witnessed the rude behavior, and the ways I dealt with it just today.

Examples (forgive me if these are redundant...I can't remember everything I've posted at this point).

1. Last night, when youngest wasn't allowed to spend the night, he burst into tears, and somewhere in the ensuing meltdown, he proceeded to call me stupid. His dad was there and said nothing in particular about that, so I said, "You know, we don't use the word STUPID in our house, and that hurts my feelings."

2. Minutes after little guy arrives today, his big brother (Aspie) reneges on his promise to let little guy use his PSP game. So words fly, and I go immediately to intervene. The two are hot, and I'm trying to talk some sense into them. I start with the oldest and tell him how wrong it is to go back on his promise. When he won't budge I tell them that it's very simple for me to just send them home NOW (their dad had only just gone across the street at that point to the library). Oldest acquiesces. Youngest then toss-throws his brother's PSP on the floor. It was pure spite. I had to be the one to make both boys apologize. Great start to our day.

3. Today, after Dad arrived and little guy was departing, I asked boy to leave by a different exit. His father backed me up and asked his son to leave by a different exit. Boy proceeds to exit out the door I had specifically asked him not to use.


So, as much as I may have backed the boy into a corner, I stand by my statement that he is allowed to get away with a considerable amount of rude behavior. I admit to being "on my guard" so to speak. I may have provoked the situation I chose to post about by expecting him to answer me. But, the bigger picture - of which these examples are just tip of the iceberg - supports my belief that I was not in error to try to correct his behavior. What I really did wrong was to not listen to my inner voice when it told me to avoid this situation in the first place. As I've already stated, I'll do my very best to not do that again.

Doran

[j.griff]

Doran, I really think you are overreacting to these situations, honestly. You hurt the boys feelings by specifically telling him he couldn't spend the night. He was hurt, and he thought you were being stupid. :D
Don't take it personally, and may I ask if he was in your home when he said this? (Curious, because you used the words, "in our home..."). You may not agree with the use of such language, but MANY many families use such words and don't see them as being "rude", or maybe not "uncalled for".

Youngest was angry at brother for making a promise and then taking it back. He is probably resentful that oldest has such a game, and holds it over his head I'm sure. Yes, he was being spiteful, but a little understanding of the situation would go a looooong way. You don't agree with his behavior- but he's just a child.
You don't agree with his parents parenting, and I think you'd be better off just letting them know that up front, so they can prepare their child for future disappointments in not being invited to your home when his brother/s is/are.

Again, making a mountain out of a mole hill. Child was probably uspet with you, and just wanted to have SOME control over the situation by choosing which door he left. Not a big deal in the general scheme of things, until someone makes it a big deal.

I think you should just tell the mom that you don't get along with him, and just can't have him in your home again.

I usually find your posts to be level headed, and I agree that the boy's behavior was rude. I just find your response to his behavior to be a bit "much". Hugs, I know you were probably cranky with the situation in general, and then those "triggers" were thrown on top of it all. If you could/would just set a VERY clear boundary with his parents, you won't have to deal with it again. Your personalities are NOT compatible.

[Doran]

Doran, I really think you are overreacting to these situations, honestly. You hurt the boys feelings by specifically telling him he couldn't spend the night. He was hurt, and he thought you were being stupid. ...[snip]...
I usually find your posts to be level headed, and I agree that the boy's behavior was rude. I just find your response to his behavior to be a bit "much". Hugs, I know you were probably cranky with the situation in general, and then those "triggers" were thrown on top of it all. If you could/would just set a VERY clear boundary with his parents, you won't have to deal with it again. Your personalities are NOT compatible.



I have PMed you. But, to answer specifically here -- yes, he was in my home when he made that remark. :001_smile:


Doran

[Whisperlily]

Doran's going to be more :ack2: about explaining the event over and over through the responses here than the she was with whole episode with the 6 year old!

:leaving:

[j.griff]

LOL. I'm sorry Doran, I wuv ya, and you know it. ;)

[gardenschooler]

Well, I'll have to go back and finish reading the replies later. It looks like you got a bushelful of advice. :)

I know absolutely nothing about boys, but I've seen a snarling girl or two (or ten dozen!). Whether they're boy or girl, they're still human, are they not?

In a word, inexcusable. I don't care what, when, where, how or why. I don't care if mom lets them do it. I don't care if he has behavioral issues.

Kids *know* to be on their better behavior around people other than Mom & Dad. That's why we get such cheery smiles from our own all the time! (NOT!).

He may have reacted, he may have been in that electronic daze that overtakes them and, like a drug, nothing else is as important at that second. It still doesn't matter. You do not - ever- turn to an adult that is hosting you in her home and snap, "So why are you even talking to me?"

Period. And he knows that, and you know that, and I would be more than happy to tell his mom and let her beat the, I mean, talk to him about it. Maybe she'll see that her method just ain't doing the trick.

This is just a cruddy week. It's almost surreal, all these instances of snarling.

I had a teenage girl say something to me last night that left me speechless.

I feel for you. It feels like being spat upon, doesn't it? Hopefully he won't do it again. And if he does, hopefully it will turn into something he can learn from and realize that is NOT OKAY. He needs to know this. Heck, everyone needs to know this! Why don't we?

[gardenschooler]

Later, when the mood is changed you can talk about how "in our house we do it this way."

Though I agree with the other posts that you did fine, simply telling him the rules in your home firmly, I do agree with the above.

Ladies, I am really not trying to be confrontational about this. I understand different rules on saying "Yes, Ma'am, " and things like that, but isn't answering someone when they speak to you (especially an adult) sort of universal decent behavior? Not someone's different house rules?

I agree that it is probably to be expected by a 6 yr. old (or any age, for that matter), to his parents, siblings, etc., if he were in an aggravated state. I would be very surprised to hear a child say something like this to someone else, though.

How can this be a house rule?

[j.griff]

How about 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'? :)

And FWIW, AIUI now- Doran asked boy what's wrong, boy didn't reply. Doran prompted him to reply, he replied civilly (somewhat), Doran made a statement attempting to comfort him, that just really set him off (I don't think she had any idea that would be the result of her statement) and he replied rudely.
I had a mixed up understanding of events in my previous replies- but I still wouldn't find it "rude" of him to not reply-in and of itself. I'd just shrug and say something like,"Okay, if you want to talk to me you know where I am". BUT- I am an introvert- so I GET that (not wanting to answer someone). Sometimes, you're just thinking stuff through in your head, working out WHAT To say or whether you Should say anything- and that comes across to others as a non-response. A 6 year old not replying is NOT a big deal, IMO.

[gardenschooler]

How about 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'? :)

A 6 year old not replying is NOT a big deal, IMO.

I agree with this. My answer was more to the 'why are you talking to me' comment. But I know nothing about boys, nothing. No brothers, no sons. But the not answering - I've seen that a lot, even from kids other than my own. I wouldn't have been overly upset at that, it was the comment afterwards - even though I think it's universal to answer someone when they speak to you, I agree that kids need a reminder on that often. I was just taken aback at the 'why are you talking to me?' snarl afterwards. That's where it changed from what I've seen to something I really can't imagine. I would have had the same reaction as Doran, and with everything else - well, it would be more than I could take.

I used to think my girls were full of sass at home around that age. They'd pout and whine and argue with me. I was always shocked to get such *glowing* reports back on their behavior everywhere they went. So it led me to believe kids are kinda afraid to act out towards other adults.

But what do I know? I probably scared the beans out of 'em before they went. (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take me for a babysitter, Jenn! LOL). I know one thing - girls, my girls, anyway - cared what people thought of them. Not for any good reason, they just would have been mortified to have to be corrected by someone else. Weird, huh? Here they have the most insensitive mom on the planet, and if someone else says, "We don't do that," to them, they crumble. Who can figure these kids out? :tongue_smilie:

I also don't have any experience with aspies, or siblings of. So I don't know the dynamics that can factor in. But I've learned a lot in this thread, which may be of some use to me someday, if a situation ever occurs - I might be able to understand the behavior issues a little better and not just lump everyone into the same category of needing to exercise self-control. So this has been a very helpful thread, not only to Doran.

[earthmother]

I have a major issue with game boys and Psp's and such because it makes children anti-social. I see it in all of my friend's children and my own from time to time. We fought the whole technology issue for years and now we allow it for very limited times. BUT!!! I truly believe we are doing a disservice to our children by allowing them to be plugged in as much as we do. Because they are always on the computer or witha game in hand, these children can't deal with real life issues, hold a proper conversation, and frankly they are just boring. I get bored and annoyed talking to a kid that is a tech head. they don't know how to play!! And, my husband who teaches middle school (and has for 20 years) talks about how horrid the social skills have become over the years because all they do is text message.

I think you did the right thing!!! These kids need to be taught by someone that their behavior is not appropriate. A child should never snap back at an adult. Way to go!!

sorry to be on a soap box, but give our society a few more years including the moms and dads who can't get off their cell phones and we'll see how great we are as a human race.

And while I'm at it, I went to visit a friend with a new baby. There were 4 adults there and not one of them looked up at me from their Wii game to say hello. the new mom proceeded to hand off the baby to me (which I gladly held her) and play with the other 3 adults all the while ignoring me.
UGH

[Pamela H in Texas]

I agree that it is probably to be expected by a 6 yr. old (or any age, for that matter), to his parents, siblings, etc., if he were in an aggravated state. I would be very surprised to hear a child say something like this to someone else, though.

Whoa....There is a MAJOR misunderstanding :)

The post I was replying to was saying that the OP pushed the issue with the child unnecessarily. Oh how many times I've been trying to process something and just wish someone would offer, "if you need to talk" and then just LEAVE ME ALONE. And my son, at 6, SO would not have been able to answer her, so I understand from that point of view also. So my comment was about when she insisted on an answer from an obviously upset child.

I also didn't like the OPs reply when the child DID answer.

HOWEVER, and PLEASE understand this. There is absolutely no excuse (outside moderate to severe disability which doesn't seem to be the case) for what the child said next. I most certainly would have put him in his place in a heartbeat. And if it were MY child, I would most certainly want to know because you are right-- This isn't about a house rule. This is about a child who needs discipline to help him learn to behave acceptably in such situations.

I hope that clarifies my position. I most certainly wasn't suggesting that it was EVER okay for a child to be outright ugly to anyone. I don't put up with a child expressing himself inappropriately. He can do it appropriately or he can leave (or in the case of my own kids, deal with our discipline). I did mean that he should be given the opportunity to process his feelings quietly. Being sad, mad, etc should be perfectly okay, even for someone else's kid. It isn't my job to make them happy all the time.

[lovemyboys]

I was just trying to make a point, in response to so many posts about how un-acceptable a child's "rude" behavior is, and how we should not tolerate such behavior from other people's children in our homes, etc.

ETA: I don't think that what I said above is exactly the same scenario that played out in the OP.
I still expect adults to model loving, caring, gentle correction of such children, as opposed to "nipping it in the bud". I think that many families have different ideas of what is "rude", and what is "acceptable"- and that we should not expect other people (children or adults) to follow the same "rules" that we do.

Wow.
I realize that you chose to respond to my post with a response aimed at many of the posts here.

I'm confused at some of your points here as a response to what I wrote. Just for the record, my house is a neighborhood hangout, because I do treat all my guests with love and acceptance. We have several friends with aspie who my children know and love and play well with. It's part of our life.

My point, with a very specific example, to the OP was that she was right to correct a child's repeated rude behavior to her. Not just the little gameboy moment, but repeatedly. This little guy has a family that is dealing with asperger's in their older son and parenting challenges. He's been allowed to get away with some fairly belligerent behavior. I stand by my response that Doran was ok to try to correct the rude responses she was getting. We're not talking about the lack of a "ma'am" here, and while I might not have challenged the little guy, I didn't get the feeling that Doran was down in his face shaking a finger at him. She just let him know he needed to speak respectfully. I think most families have some basic "house rules" like no name calling. And he'd been saying rude things to her whether his parents are there or not.

In one of the earlier posts, you said that you never allow your dc in other's homes without you. But mine often do go to play with others, with and without me, so I try to work with them. Are they perfectly well behaved? Of course not! But I know and trust that the other parents will treat them kindly and correct them if needed.

The example I gave in my first post was a child whose parents haven't bothered to "nip it in the bud" because they think his outspoken rudeness is cute and precocious.

That was my point for Doran, fwiw. And this is my clarification, fwiw, for the part of my original post that moved you to respond. Sorry if my choice of terms or something else bugged you, I didn't mean to offend. :001_smile:

[Colleen]

Ladies, I am really not trying to be confrontational about this. I understand different rules on saying "Yes, Ma'am, " and things like that, but isn't answering someone when they speak to you (especially an adult) sort of universal decent behavior? Not someone's different house rules?

In a nutshell, yes. It is universal decent behavior. Or should be. But the question is, can we force others to abide by what we consider universally decent behavior? If so, how do we do that? Can we ~ should we ~ try to elicit compliance by announcing, "XYZ is our house rule" or "XYZ is universally-accepted decent behavior"? Perhaps, if the situation lends itself to that opportunity. And if we're able to do so without getting worked up.

[Colleen]

I stand by my statement that he is allowed to get away with a considerable amount of rude behavior.

I never implied otherwise. Yes, it sounds like he's not parented well. You knew that beforehand and were/are justifiably uncomfortable with that.

What I really did wrong was to not listen to my inner voice when it told me to avoid this situation in the first place. As I've already stated, I'll do my very best to not do that again.

I understand that. I believe the best option is to not watch any of these boys because of their behavioral issues and your feelings about those issues.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In a nutshell, yes. It is universal decent behavior. Or should be. But the question is, can we force others to abide by what we consider universally decent behavior? If so, how do we do that? Can we ~ should we ~ try to elicit compliance by announcing, "XYZ is our house rule" or "XYZ is universally-accepted decent behavior"? Perhaps, if the situation lends itself to that opportunity. And if we're able to do so without getting worked up.

Right. And really, kids are still learning. It is amazing to me how many people get angry at young children for not having learned yet (whether due to age, circumstance, poor parenting, etc). Well, and even more amazing how adults get angry at young children for not having learned something when they, in the same episode even, have shown they also aren't perfect.

Again, I'm not saying be permissive, not even with someone else's kid in your home. I tend to run a very tight ship period and my experience is that kids adjust just fine. I just think we have to be a bit more mindful.

[Liz CA]

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:


Doran

a license to be rude! I would rain down seriously on my son if he behaved this way with someone else. If he did this at home, there would be consequences. Frustration with gadgets used to result in the gadget being taken away for some time until peace and internal balance was restored (not just hours, but days or weeks) and we would talk about self-control. Had a few of those conversations over the years, fewer now.

[Momto4kids]

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:


Doran


Doran, I have 3 boys, almost 9, almost 5, and almost 4. No way are they allowed to talk to anyone like that. Not their father, not their mother, not their brother, not their cousins, not the nasty kid next door....NO ONE. No you were not wonrg. Obviously since you have had issues with this boy before it sounds like the way his parents, parent.

[j.griff]

No offense, and no hard feelings here. Your post just happened to be the last one I was reading at the time, when I typed that reply in response to all the posts I'd read that had little snippets (or whole posts) that "bothered" me.
What *I* "heard" when I read your last bit Sometimes you help rephrase and redirect, but you can't let that stuff slide or the rudeness, taking for granted, impolite behavior just escalates. And then it goes outside the house to other people and becomes a general way of treating people. IMNSHO (!) you did him a favor, even if it was just a small moment. Otherwise, the world is full of rude little Zs running around. was:
You're doing the world a favor by going around vanquishing impolite behavior- that those who speak out against any perceived infraction of etiquette deserve a big pat on the back; and that those who have different values, different ideas of etiquette, etc. are a blight to be "conquered". And that is not solely based on your reply alone, but by the "tone" that *I* perceived while reading this entire thread- indeed that is very likely NOT the message you were attempting to send.
I've been tired, I've been cranky, and I've been so offended by intolerance, that I am intolerant of anything *I* perceive as intolerance.

[Laurel T.]

I have read every post of this thread with great anticipation. I have nothing to add about this particular situation, but I am dealing with a precious son that has "difficulty processing his emotions" and it sometimes comes out as what some would term rude or unacceptable behaviour. It is interesting to see how different people react. I have learned alot from the discussion.

With my particular son, I think that I am in the "process" of helping him to make better and more mature choices each day. I do not think a "nip it in the bud" approach would ever work with him. So yes there will be moments when another adult would access my situation and say I am not firm enough or I am lax, but they might not see the hours and hours of time that is spent day to day trying to help him develop in character.

So it is always hard for me to hear someone say that a parent is not doing enough or not doing it right when it comes to training their children, because in general I think most of us are just doing the best that we can.

Just wanted to let everyone know that I have gleaned alot from both sides of this discussion.

Laurel T.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Laurel,

You have a good point. Regarding my son, I always felt like "I only have the same 16-21 years everyone else has," yet I understood that I had to start with where he was and that we had to work much harder to make every step of progress. And though I'm very strict and run a tight ship (and am a "nip it in the bud" type naturally), I had to make sure I was being reasonable also. Though in some ways, those very qualities HELPED me parent, they were also a part of me I had to keep in check in order to help this child. Parenting him made me grow more than any child does in 13 years!

But you're right. There were times when people just didn't understand. And other times they just didn't agree. And yet I have a wonderful 13yo boy (how many people put wonderful, teen age, and boy in the same sentence?) :) My efforts were worth it. We still have plenty to tweak, of course (who doesn't?). But I just wanted to encourage you that it does pay off :)

[Doran]

I've been tired, I've been cranky, and I've been so offended by intolerance, that I am intolerant of anything *I* perceive as intolerance.


Whether you intended it to be or not, this was funny!! Reminds me of that cross stitch my mother has hanging in her bathroom that says,

Lord, grant me patience. BUT HURRY!


Thanks for your input. :)

Doran