Rising Costs and Government Help

[Tanya in KS]

Here is the situation:

We just added on to our home. Of course, it increased our mortgage. (We started this all last year and just got things wrapped up before gas and everything else started skyrocketing.) We own a trailer camper. We have 7 children in the home, 4 are under the age of 5. My husband works LONG hours in agriculture at a local cooperative as a fert manager. My husband is NOT willing to move (with the market in our area our home would never sell) and he is NOT willing to sell the camper. Two of our sons have medical needs which means travel 2 hours to a doctor. Gas, Gas, Gas.... We are working on paying off credit debt (yes, the cards and closed and cut up and GONE)

So to my question.... with the price of milk, eggs and everything else rising at the local, rural grocery store. Our budget is so tight due to the above things I have mentioned. We are determined to stick to our debt payoff plan BUT I almost have nothing left for groceries and clothing. Dear hubby, does not understand because he does not pay the bills. I am considering putting the younger children on WIC, just to help with the grocery bill. I struggle with this choice due to the fact that we have some luxuries (big house, camper) and I really feel like the program is for those who need it. If we could get rid of the camper then, we would be okay BUT like I said - hubby will NOT NOT sell the camper. It is his freedom when he can get away from his job.

Sorry for rambling...just wanting to get out of this pit

Tanya

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Here is the situation:

We just added on to our home. Of course, it increased our mortgage. (We started this all last year and just got things wrapped up before gas and everything else started skyrocketing.) We own a trailer camper. We have 7 children in the home, 4 are under the age of 5. My husband works LONG hours in agriculture at a local cooperative as a fert manager. My husband is NOT willing to move (with the market in our area our home would never sell) and he is NOT willing to sell the camper. Two of our sons have medical needs which means travel 2 hours to a doctor. Gas, Gas, Gas.... We are working on paying off credit debt (yes, the cards and closed and cut up and GONE)

So to my question.... with the price of milk, eggs and everything else rising at the local, rural grocery store. Our budget is so tight due to the above things I have mentioned. We are determined to stick to our debt payoff plan BUT I almost have nothing left for groceries and clothing. Dear hubby, does not understand because he does not pay the bills. I am considering putting the younger children on WIC, just to help with the grocery bill. I struggle with this choice due to the fact that we have some luxuries (big house, camper) and I really feel like the program is for those who need it. If we could get rid of the camper then, we would be okay BUT like I said - hubby will NOT NOT sell the camper. It is his freedom when he can get away from his job.

Sorry for rambling...just wanting to get out of this pit

Tanya

You would qualify for WIC?

[Tanya in KS]

Due to # of children and my hubby's income.

[OnTheBrink]

I'd do it. WIC is not an entitlement program like welfare or food stamps. You can own your home, have a car, and have a relatively good income to qualify. There's no shame in WIC and if you qualify, take advantage of it being there for you.

[Mrs. H.]

We've done WIC, especially when dh was in law school, unable to work his first year, and we were living off of student loans and my minimum wage job. We're not on it anymore because food allergies means we can't eat a lot of the stuff WIC provides.

I don't know if you know much about the program details, but here are some:

If you are pregnant or breastfeeding, you can qualify for the entire pregnancy, plus 1 year of breastfeeding. At 1 year, they cut you off.

The baby can qualify for formula if you use it, or will start to get baby cereal and juice at 6 months if you breastfeed exclusively.

At one year old each child gets (per month):

4 gallons of milk
2 dozen eggs
36 oz. of approved cereal
2 lbs. of approved cheese
6 12 oz. cans of juice
1 lb. of dried beans
2 cans of evaporated milk

This lasts until the child is 5 years old, at which time he/she become ineligible for the program. This might not seem like much at first glance, but it equals out to about $25 worth of groceries each trip, and if you have more than one child between the ages of 1-5, it can quickly add up.

The only drawback to this program is that you can't be picky about having organic, hormone-free milk. If the government if offering it for free, they are going to choose the cheapest brands for everything, but if the choice was between being able to afford groceries or not, I would (and have) chosen feeding the kids every time.

Fwiw, I have heard that there are some Christian circles that teach that it is a sin to accept government help of any kind, but in my opinion, getting my kids fed each month is more important than my pride about government programs.

[Tracey in TX]

WIC is designed for this type of situation! Please consider using the program for your kiddos. They will be guaranteed some decent basics, and it will free your budget slightly.
(hugs)

[WendyK]

I see nothing wrong with that at all.

[st_claire]

If you qualify, go for it! That's what it's there for.

[Lisa in Jax]

Tanya,

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it? I don't mean to sound unkind -- I only mean to say that it's my opinion that taxes from my family's paycheck (and all other taxpayers' checks) aren't meant to be used for families who have the ability to pay for the basics themselves. Your family made the choice to incur the credit card debts and home expansion. Those choices have caused you hardships to be sure, but they were your choices.

It would be nice to keep the trailer. It would be nice to pay off debts. But b/c of choices you and your family made, it sounds like "nice" isn't possible right now. If keeping the trailer and/or pay more than the minimum on your debts means that someone else has to pay for your groceries, that doesn't seem fair to me.

Please know that I'm not intending to sound unkind or judgemental. I'm only stating an opinion about the situation as I see it. I know it sounds harsh, but sometimes the truth *is* harsh.

Just my two cents,

Lisa
FairTax supporter and flame-retardant suit wearer:grouphug:

[Mrs. H.]

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.


I actually agree with what you are saying, and I don't think you said it in an unkind way at all. My issue with the whole thing is that her husband is refusing to sell the trailer to help with debt or groceries, and he is refusing to sell the house and move.

In this situation, I would certainly do everything I could to make my husband see that he needed to help me come up with an idea that would help us either live on less or make more. However, if after all my efforts, my husband just refused to budge on anything financially, and that left me holding the bag to find a way to make the grocery budget stretch to feed 7 children, I would most definitely use this program, if for no other reason than to get my kids fed.

Husbands don't always make the right choices, and we are sometimes left with less than stellar options.

[Tanya in KS]

I agree with the one who flamed me that is why I am struggling with this decision so much. I know that we got ourselves into this situation. The home improvement went over budget, of course. My husband is not willing to sell the camper. He will not come to an understanding about the budget. We are making minuim payments on the credit debt. This will be a short term solution to help with the budget. I have no intention on staying on forever, I know that children can stay on until they are five. Just until I can make a balance.

[Diana in OR]

I see nothing wrong with WIC in your situation. I do agree with the suggestion of paying off your debt more slowly in order to cover basic needs.

However, when you remodeled your home you didn't know what was going to happen with gas prices, groceries, etc.

If I were you, I wouldn't feel at all guilty about it. Also, it's not as if someone else would be denied WIC b/c you are using it. It can be a great help.

[abbeyej]

I agree with the one who flamed me...

Very gently, Tanya... I don't think anyone flamed you. Lisa offered a different opinion from the others, but I don't think she meant it to be harsh or cruel in any way.

[Tanya in KS]

I did not take it as a flame. She claimed herself to be one so I simply addressed her the way that she addressed herself. I took her opinion to heart as I am with all the posts. I am glad for the opposing opinion as I am struggling with what is the best thing to do. I am simply weighing all my options and praying feverently about the situation

[shell in SC]

"However, when you remodeled your home you didn't know what was going to happen with gas prices, groceries, etc."

That is true, but you have to take that into consideration when you make a major purchase like this. When I purchased my home I could have spent another $70-$100k but then I would be living paycheck to paycheck. I chose instead to buy a cheaper home so that there was a little flex room in my budget. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for others groceries b/c they wanted to remodel. I would love to do a remodel (us that extra $$ we didn't spend on the house), but then americans would need to buy my groceries too. I wouldn't be able to do it in good conscience.

[Scarlett]

Tanya, IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options.

Fortunately the guidelines are a little loser than that. 'no other options' could cover a huge range. What is an option to one might not be to the next person.

Tanya, if you qualify for help to feed your children there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting the help.

I would definitely strongly ask your dh to sit down and see where the money is going and tell him that unless you get rid of the camper you will have to apply for WIC. If he still refuses, I don't see why you would even feel guilty about accepting help to feed your dc.

[OnTheBrink]

"However, when you remodeled your home you didn't know what was going to happen with gas prices, groceries, etc."

That is true, but you have to take that into consideration when you make a major purchase like this. When I purchased my home I could have spent another $70-$100k but then I would be living paycheck to paycheck. I chose instead to buy a cheaper home so that there was a little flex room in my budget. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for others groceries b/c they wanted to remodel. I would love to do a remodel (us that extra $$ we didn't spend on the house), but then americans would need to buy my groceries too. I wouldn't be able to do it in good conscience.


I think this is harsh. No one knows the future and things happen. And, I'm fairly sure they didn't go into this remodel with the idea that if cash is tight, they can always go on WIC. Programs like this are in place for temporary hard times. If her dh won't sell the extras they have, or agree to sell the home and move, what do you suggest she do? Not "You should have done..." but "This will help today...." She can't exactly sell their property w/o her dh's approval or knowledge.

[Adrianne]

Tanya,

In theory I agree with the "flamer" that our tax dollars should not be used to pay for someones camper or house addition. It should really be for those in need.

HOWEVER

We all make mistakes. I am sure I am not alone when I say that I have made purchases that were more than what I intended. It sounds like you needed the house addition with a large amount of kids. And although I do not agree with your hubby about the camper, I understand the martial situation it puts you in. Here are a few thoughts:

Have you put it to your hubby that if he does not sell the camper then you will have to take govn't assistance? when put so bluntly may be his "male pride" will kick in. (or not) Sometimes the best of husbands need things to be spelled out.

Also - if you have exhausted other options then go on WIC until your situation improves. As long as you are striving to not be on WIC, then you are not a slacker who is abusing the system. It is design that way for a reason.

I will pray that your situation improves.

[Antonia]

Agreeing with Lisa and shell. I think your dh is being unreasonable. If *he* is not willing to sell the camper, then *he* should be willing to work an extra job to provide the extra money needed to support *his* family. I'm sorry this sounds harsh, but there are many people truly struggling to make ends meet who *don't* have valuable assets to sell.

[Scarlett]

Agreeing with Lisa and shell. I think your dh is being unreasonable. If *he* is not willing to sell the camper, then *he* should be willing to work an extra job to provide the extra money needed to support *his* family. I'm sorry this sounds harsh, but there are many people truly struggling to make ends meet who *don't* have valuable assets to sell.

Ouch.

She already said he works looong hours. I doubt there are enough hours in the day for another job. Besides, how do you suppose she go about forcing him to get another job OR sell the camper?

I am shocked at some of these attitudes. The programs are available. If you qualify and need it why would anyone begrudge anyone getting milk and cheese and cereal to feed their kids?

[GothicGyrl]

Well, I'm going to "flame the flamer" because she is way off base and her idea of what "help" is, is the exact reason why some refuse to get it and then children and families end up suffering because of it.

WIC is NOT like Medicaid and food stamps. WIC isn't even associated with those two even if they are in the same office. The requirements for WIC are much different than those for Medicaid and Food stamps.

We no longer qualify for WIC (kids too old), and we don't qualify for foodstamps, but we do for medicaid and quite frankly, I am extremely thankful we have it and insurance. We would not be able to afford ANY medical care for the kids without it. And to be honest with you, I've got a new house, and I feel we should be qualifying for foodstamps as well, because DH and my income just don't cut it sometimes.

I DO understand and actually agree with "tired of my taxes paying for leeches on the system". But you are forgetting that even those leeches are paying taxes as well, so you are not the only one whose taxes are being dinged.

To the OP, TAKE THE WIC and DO NOT feel guilty about it. I am so sick of others making people feel guilty for taking help when it is needed, just because someone has a car, or house, or nicer tv than you do. I've got all of those things too, but I still need the help and I can guarentee you that I didn't get those things while on this help, those things came before the help arrived--when we could afford it. When our country was not in a recession. When I had the money saved up for it.

Not everyone is out to screw the system. Some of us really need it and to tell someone that they shouldn't take the help offered and available to them because you are tired of YOUR taxes supporting them, is really an insult.

OP take the WIC and don't feel one bit guilty about it. Use it for as long as you need to. You obviously recognize that you need this extra help (through no fault of your own), so take it. Feed those babies. There is no shame in taking the help when needed.

And it certainly is not a sin.

[nestof3]

Since you asked, no I don't think you should take WIC for the reasons others posted. In my opinion it's not whether you qualify but whether you should have been living on the edge to begin with -- adding on and having a camper. My husband I have to deny ourselves all the time. Surely if a little rise in gas and food is affecting you that much and surely if you were living on the edge so much that you chose to incur credit card debt AND add onto your house, better choices should have been made. Yes, we all pay taxes, but they are only so high because some people are taking out when they don't really need to be.

[nestof3]

Oh, and let your husband take back over the paying of the bills. That may be the only way he will see things more clearly.

Also, is there anything you can cut out of your spending? Things that are not necessary? I know many people who get rid of their landline phone and only use their cell phone (my very wealthy brother is one of these people LOL). Also, cable, if connected, could be disconnected. People really need very few clothes and most of these can be purchased at a thrift store. Youl could refuse to buy any junk food or beverages except milk for a while. A little here and a little there add up. The best thing to do is write down everything you spend your money on and track where it is going. Also, make sure you are making energy-wise choices with water and electricity coinsumption.

[GothicGyrl]

Since you asked, no I don't think you should take WIC for the reasons others posted. In my opinion it's not whether you qualify but whether you should have been living on the edge to begin with -- adding on and having a camper. My husband I have to deny ourselves all the time. Surely if a little rise in gas and food is affecting you that much and surely if you were living on the edge so much that you chose to incur credit card debt AND add onto your house, better choices should have been made. Yes, we all pay taxes, but they are only so high because some people are taking out when they don't really need to be.

Oh how I so disagree with this and the implication that you are paying more in taxes because some of us are on welfare. No one can predict the future, no one. No one can accurately sit there and say "we shouldn't do this because this WILL happen". NO one. And your taxes are certainly NOT high because some people have to use welfare.

That blame lies squarely on the shoulders of people you vote in to office. NOT the ones on welfare.

[abbeyej]

I did not take it as a flame. She claimed herself to be one...
Actually, lol, she didn't -- she said she needed a "flame retardant suit" for fear that others would flame *her* for her dissenting opinion in the matter. :)

I, for one, simply wish you peace in finding the right decision on this matter, and in coming to a reasonable understanding with your husband about how best to use resources for your family.

[PariSarah]

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it? I don't mean to sound unkind -- I only mean to say that it's my opinion that taxes from my family's paycheck (and all other taxpayers' checks) aren't meant to be used for families who have the ability to pay for the basics themselves.

I do think there's some truth to this, and I didn't take advantage of programs like this when I met the requirements for them because, frankly, my parents and ILs are/were helping to support us while we are/were in school. There was no way we were going to go hungry, no matter how low our income, and I thought it more appropriate to be supported and subsidized by willing and gracious family members than by taxpayers.

And I've met people who abuse the system. Boy howdy. I surely have. :glare:

However, there are different levels of assistance for a reason. The standards for WIC or state-assisted medical care are different than the standards for welfare checks or food stamps. And, to put it very bluntly, the government errs on the side of itself, not the poor. There are lots of provisions for "catching" people who don't "really" need the help (some of which exclude people who really, actually, do). (Just as an example, back when we were doing our masters and had no earned income, we didn't qualify for certain programs because we had our student loans in an interest-bearing checking acct. We made "too much" in interest, and the loans counted as savings. Nuts, right?) Anyway, generally, when you qualify for something, you probably really need it. And I don't think you should feel guilty about using it.

But (yet another however), signing up for WIC does not and should not preclude trying to persuade OP's dh to make better financial decisions.

So, OP, if I were you, yes, I would sign up for WIC. And I would keep trying to involve dh in the process, keep trying as gently as you need to and as firmly as your marriage can handle to help him make wiser financial decisions. Maybe he'll be willing to sell the camper if you agree to make repurchasing one a priority after you've cleared the debt. Maybe there are other things you can agree to together. Yes, selling the camper and downsizing the house is a "better" plan than going on WIC. But the only plan that will work is the one you can both agree to.

[nestof3]

Anyway, generally, when you qualify for something, you probably really need it.

This is so untrue in many cases. The OP is one of those cases.

We know people who sold their house to buy 20 acres of land and are now building a 4,000 square ft. house on it (this will be mortgaged). They are on Medicaid at times and VA's Famis health insurance most of the time.

Because they have 8 children, though, they qualify.

Meanwhile, we'll just stay in our sardine can 1,100 sq ft house and pay our own health insurance. And, yes, thankfully there is something there incase tragedy strikes us or anyone else, or for those who truly cannot afford to live -- but get rid of your ideas that you are entitled to something first just because someone else has it, trim your own spending, sell what you can and then see if you still need it. I do NOT look down on someone for taking it when they really need it.

We have other friends whose husband bought a special piece of music equipment that cost $18,000, but they cannot afford health insurance either. And, they live in a 2500 sq ft house near the beach. So, they're on the system as well.

[cricket1178]

I haven't read the other replies, but I don't think there is any shame in getting on the WIC program. I know many people who are in your situation and having to do this. Do what you have to do now, and later, when you are in a better position, maybe you can help someone else out.

[Michelle T]

at some of the punitive attitudes expressed here. So many "you made your bed and now you have to lie in it" and "if you hadn't made bad choices, such as I would never do" and similar.

The OP has a working husband, and so they DO PAY TAXES. Perhaps they shouldn't have added on to their house, but if that was started before the current money crisis, then how could they know? We added on to our house at around the same time, and wow, we are hurting now. Not needing government assistance, but I only have one kid. So, should we have never added on to our house because even though back when we started DH made well over $100,000 per year, we didn't consult some crystal ball and see that his income would drastically and suddenly drop two years later?

My guess is many of the people posting such critical statements, saying basically that "too bad, you were foolish and now you deserve to pay for it" could find themselves in similar dire straights easily enough. The OP does pay taxes, apparently does qualify for WIC, why on earth should she not feed those kids? If her DH is not being reasonable, really, what is she to do? Hold a gun to his head? Divorce him? It's so easy to be righteous and holier-than-though when it's not your *** on the line.

I'd much rather have the taxes that I have to pay, regardless of this person being on WIC or not, go to feed an American family in need, than go to dropping bombs on other countries, assisting foreign countries that hate us anyway, going to benefit large corporations, or any of the many other things I don't like, but my taxes pay for.

And now I'm off to the park.
Michelle T

[GothicGyrl]

I haven't checked, so if I haven't already been dinged for that, I will for this:

This is so untrue in many cases. The OP is one of those cases.

You have no right to tell the OP that they are not "one of those cases". If the OP truly feels that they need the assistance, then they need it. And then let WIC or the agency be the ones to tell them they are not "one of those cases".

Your posts sounds an awful lot like you are jaded and angry that some are on the system for whatever reason, and "here I am paying everything off doing what I think is the right thing, why aren't they?"

Firstly, how do you know "they" are not? How do you know (using me as an example) that I haven't done all that I can, sold all I can, and whatever else "all that I can" and the money is just not there and this WIC is my last hope/resort? How do you know for sure, that us being on medicaid is such a drain on the system? You do not.

You have no idea what it is like to be humiliated beyond all end, by these people, just to get a bit of help. We pay for our insurance, we lose a lot of money every paycheck, to ensure we have insurance and it is still not enough to cover medical expenses. That's why Medicaid exists. And I feel NO SHAME in using it and neither should the OP feel any for getting on WIC when she clearly DOES need it.

That she has a few "assets" you deem unnecessary, is not your business. And it certainly is not for you to tell her she shouldn't or doesn't have any right being on WIC when she has these assets either.

Sometimes we just need the extra help, that's what it is there for and I'm going to use it if I need it. The OP needs it and should feel no shame asking for it.

[DIY-DY]

Our budget is so tight due to the above things I have mentioned. We are determined to stick to our debt payoff plan BUT I almost have nothing left for groceries and clothing. Dear hubby, does not understand because he does not pay the bills.

I ask b/c this helped my DH *see* our budget much better than when I paid the bills and then told him where we stood. He's a smart guy, a hard worker, and a fantastic provider, but somewhere in the translation, it doesn't always click when I'm just passing along information. This got to be quite a sticking point with us, financially, and I was fairly frustrated.

So, I set up a bill-paying date night w/ him. Just put on a pot of coffee, got some of his favorite snacks, lured him to the computer desk *grin* and broke out the bills. For him, actually seeing his paycheck in the account, and then watching the numbers dwindle so rapidly after I'd paid everything did the trick. It was much easier for him to make the less comfortable financial decisions at that point. It might help your DH really grasp your situation, as well.

And, you never know, he may well have some insight into how to do things better, or see some place you all can cut back that you don't see when you're right in the thick of it, as you are. If you haven't tried that approach, I would recommend it.

But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't apply for WIC in this situation. It's a personal conviction that I hold that this wouldn't be reason for me to apply. I would look at other things, such as lowering my ins. coverage, raising deductibles, consolidating debt to a lower rate, going hard-core beans and rice on my groceries, cutting out any and all luxuries (go dial-up vs. high speed or no internet, as needed; no cable; bare bones on the land line; no cell phones; sell off any and everything we did not absolutely need, including jewelry and additional vehicles, just as some examples... obviously, every situation would have different items). I would look into doing a work exchange at a food bank to supplement the food... basically, I would have to absolutely *know* that I had done everything in *my* power (and I do understand that your DH's calls are not within your power - believe me, I do get that!) to improve the situation and do what I needed to do before I could, in good conscience, apply to a gov't program in this situation. Obviously, this isn't how everyone feels, but that would be how I'd call it for our family.

HTH, Dy

[PariSarah]

This is so untrue in many cases. The OP is one of those cases.

We know people who sold their house to buy 20 acres of land and are now building a 4,000 square ft. house on it (this will be mortgaged). They are on Medicaid at times and VA's Famis health insurance most of the time.

Because they have 8 children, though, they qualify.

Meanwhile, we'll just stay in our sardine can 1,100 sq ft house and pay our own health insurance. And, yes, thankfully there is something there incase tragedy strikes us or anyone else, or for those who truly cannot afford to live -- but get rid of your ideas that you are entitled to something first just because someone else has it, trim your own spending, sell what you can and then see if you still need it. I do NOT look down on someone for taking it when they really need it.

We have other friends whose husband bought a special piece of music equipment that cost $18,000, but they cannot afford health insurance either. And, they live in a 2500 sq ft house near the beach. So, they're on the system as well.

As I said, I've known people who abuse the system. I won't tell their stories here, because they're not mine to tell. But I know. I really do. The thing is, I know a. lot. more. people who are genuinely struggling, who deserve the attention and help of their community, and don't "qualify" for it.

I pay my own insurance, too, and live in a small house, too. But I sure don't begrudge a family of ten for needing assistance with medical insurance. Holy carp, their medical insurance alone would be more than my annual salary around here.

I just don't agree with the sentiment that the public should only help the destitute. Between destitution and mere discomfort, there can and should be a phase-out of assistance. Your friends don't qualify for welfare. They only qualify for medicaid sometimes. Other times they qualify for a lesser level of aid. That seems appropriate to me.

[Dot]

Michelle T- Excellent post

[Susan in TX]

Get WIC and don't feel guilty about it! If you couldn't afford to homeschool would you feel guilty because you send your kids to public school and the government is paying for it? Would you refuse a government grant that would pay for your kid's college tuition? Taxpayer money is taxpayer money. We shouldn't put a stigma on some forms of government aid and not others.

Also, IMNSHO, the income caps for WIC are very generous. One can easily be making what I consider a very good income and still qualify. And those who are already on food stamps qualify as well so it is not intended to be only for those with dire need.

Susan in TX

[saw]

I think you should take WIC in this situation. Then, if you feel you can/should/want to, when things are financially easier for you, "pay it back" -- not necessarily to the government but to a charity. Make it more of a loan.

[lynn]

I don't see any problem with getting help when needed on a temporary basis.

[lynn]

I think you should take WIC in this situation. Then, if you feel you can/should/want to, when things are financially easier for you, "pay it back" -- not necessarily to the government but to a charity. Make it more of a loan.

This is what I was trying to say, but pressed submit before I gathered my thoughts. Hmmm it must be Friday.:001_huh:

[Antonia]

She already said he works looong hours. I doubt there are enough hours in the day for another job. Besides, how do you suppose she go about forcing him to get another job OR sell the camper?

She can't. But she can throw that ball back into his court. "This is how much you make. This is how much we need. We are this much short. What are your plans for this shortfall?" He will come to realize that he is being unreasonable about keeping a camper when his family may go hungry, or he will find a way to earn extra money, or he will go to WIC and ask for help. If he's the one being obstinate, then he should be the one to figure out how to make it work.

I seem to remember a similar thread on these boards awhile back when I was a lurker, when a regular on these boards had a similar problem. Her dh was also being obstinate about their financial situation. The majority of advice was "give it to him to solve. he is the provider, you are the mom." She did, and he figured it out. I'll bet Tanya's dh would, too.

[Antonia]

... So many "you made your bed and now you have to lie in it" and "if you hadn't made bad choices, such as I would never do" and similar.

Sounds to me like more people are saying "sell the camper, forget the debt-reduction for now." Yes, many, many people could get out of the debt they've incurred if the govt. would "take over" their bills for a little while. Unfortunately, we still have to provide shelter, food, and other necessities while we are paying off our debt. Why should a family be supported by the govt. because they have a debt-reduction plan they want to stick to, when thousands of other families across the nation are paying their way out of debt *and* supporting their families? AND why would someone keep something unnecessary for which they could get perhaps a few thousand dollars to support their children? Sorry, it just goes back to Tanya's dh being obstinate and unreasonable. If it were me, I would sell the d*mn camper myself.

[Volty]

Tanya,

In theory I agree with the "flamer" that our tax dollars should not be used to pay for someones camper or house addition. It should really be for those in need.

HOWEVER

We all make mistakes. I am sure I am not alone when I say that I have made purchases that were more than what I intended. It sounds like you needed the house addition with a large amount of kids. And although I do not agree with your hubby about the camper, I understand the martial situation it puts you in. Here are a few thoughts:

Have you put it to your hubby that if he does not sell the camper then you will have to take govn't assistance? when put so bluntly may be his "male pride" will kick in. (or not) Sometimes the best of husbands need things to be spelled out.

Also - if you have exhausted other options then go on WIC until your situation improves. As long as you are striving to not be on WIC, then you are not a slacker who is abusing the system. It is design that way for a reason.

I will pray that your situation improves.

:iagree:

Although we're only at one, I also want a large family, I love children. Seven would suit me well but I suspect we won't get there as "four and we'll see" is all I can get my dw to commit to.

The thing is that I can afford a large family on my income. Or at least I beleive I can. I think when folks can't afford a large family, it's irresponsible to have so many kids and then ask the government to pay for them. But you know what, the family here seems to agree, the dh is working like carzy to support his family and the OP doesn't want the goverment assistance. And I respect that.

But it looks like the plan didn't work. What I would recommend isto go ahead and take the assistance, you need it, it's designed for people like you. I don't think anyone would blame you. What happens though is when people are on public assistance, and continue to have kids, that's the point when most other taxpayers get really upset and the negative gossip starts.

[pixelroper]

I can't possibly quote all that I feel the need, and so...

If you are already feeling 'guilt', and you decide to take the WIC, will this go away?? Possible nagging stress. Take it as a short term plan, until a better solution presents itself??

We have needed assistance (long story) and never qualified (bizarre story), so I know that happens. We were able to get through our situation, but we had to prioritize and all "toys" (dh's term) were the first to go.

Also, I've seen people using needed assistance, relying on it and then crashing and burning anyway because the program was pulled or had the qualifications change. With the economy as it is, that might be another thing to consider.

[Amy loves Bud]

I ask b/c this helped my DH *see* our budget much better than when I paid the bills and then told him where we stood. He's a smart guy, a hard worker, and a fantastic provider, but somewhere in the translation, it doesn't always click when I'm just passing along information. This got to be quite a sticking point with us, financially, and I was fairly frustrated.

So, I set up a bill-paying date night w/ him. Just put on a pot of coffee, got some of his favorite snacks, lured him to the computer desk *grin* and broke out the bills. For him, actually seeing his paycheck in the account, and then watching the numbers dwindle so rapidly after I'd paid everything did the trick. It was much easier for him to make the less comfortable financial decisions at that point. It might help your DH really grasp your situation, as well.

And, you never know, he may well have some insight into how to do things better, or see some place you all can cut back that you don't see when you're right in the thick of it, as you are. If you haven't tried that approach, I would recommend it.

But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't apply for WIC in this situation. It's a personal conviction that I hold that this wouldn't be reason for me to apply. I would look at other things, such as lowering my ins. coverage, raising deductibles, consolidating debt to a lower rate, going hard-core beans and rice on my groceries, cutting out any and all luxuries (go dial-up vs. high speed or no internet, as needed; no cable; bare bones on the land line; no cell phones; sell off any and everything we did not absolutely need, including jewelry and additional vehicles, just as some examples... obviously, every situation would have different items). I would look into doing a work exchange at a food bank to supplement the food... basically, I would have to absolutely *know* that I had done everything in *my* power (and I do understand that your DH's calls are not within your power - believe me, I do get that!) to improve the situation and do what I needed to do before I could, in good conscience, apply to a gov't program in this situation. Obviously, this isn't how everyone feels, but that would be how I'd call it for our family.

HTH, Dy

I'm glad I read all the responses before I posted, because now I can just say, "What Dy said."

Come to think of it, I can say that a lot!

[AmyinPA]

Tanya,

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it? I don't mean to sound unkind -- I only mean to say that it's my opinion that taxes from my family's paycheck (and all other taxpayers' checks) aren't meant to be used for families who have the ability to pay for the basics themselves. Your family made the choice to incur the credit card debts and home expansion. Those choices have caused you hardships to be sure, but they were your choices.

It would be nice to keep the trailer. It would be nice to pay off debts. But b/c of choices you and your family made, it sounds like "nice" isn't possible right now. If keeping the trailer and/or pay more than the minimum on your debts means that someone else has to pay for your groceries, that doesn't seem fair to me.

Please know that I'm not intending to sound unkind or judgemental. I'm only stating an opinion about the situation as I see it. I know it sounds harsh, but sometimes the truth *is* harsh.

Just my two cents,

Lisa
FairTax supporter and flame-retardant suit wearer:grouphug:


I'll take the flames for you, but I couldn't agree more. Tell your dh that we all need to make sacrifices and the trailor might need to be his. Better yet have him pay the bills for a few mos. so he can see for himself where the money goes.
Blessings -Amy

[elegantlion]

We've been blessed to be helped by churches in the past when dh had almost no income. After a few times of my dh picking up food he felt humiliated and started looking at alternative ways to create income.

I also agree about setting your dh down and letting him see the shortfall, he needs to know. He needs to determine which is more important in his life, food for his family or a trailer sitting in the driveway.

[Kelli in TN]

I will say that WIC is not that much help. You could get WIC and it would be something, but you and your dh still need to get the lines of communication open.

We took it for a very short time after our third child was born. I did not return to work as my husband had already been hired by the fed. gov. and the income difference between the fed. gov. and the state gov. was significant. So we knew we could finally have me be an at home mom.

Then it took longer than we expected for him to actually get his training and get started so the bills were the same but we had one income. Rather than send me back to work, leaving behind two preschoolers and a nursing infant, we took WIC to help over the rough spot. I think we got it for about 4 months. Then he got started with the new job and we were okay from that point on.

It never occurred to me to feel guilty for a few gallons of milk, some cheese and some peanut butter. I just sort of thought the program was there for such a time as that. I'd have felt much guiltier about leaving those children.

I don't feel guilty for driving on tax funded roads, and once I sent a kid to a tax funded school. I am letting state money help my daughter go to college and state money is going to help another earn some dual credits. I don't feel guilty about that.


You are not thinking of a lifestyle of being supported by welfare, are you? Because I don't "hear" that in your post.

Oh, one more idea. Do you have angelfood ministries in your area? I have not bought from them, but lots of people do. You might be able to stretch your food money a bit by using their services.

[Danestress]

Tanya,

I'm so sorry. The stress on you must feel unbearable. I can see this from both sides and don't have a strong opinion either way, but if you qualify for WiC, you qualify. Almost everyone on WIC has something they could sell if they wanted to - an engagement ring, a tv. Something. And for most of them, it would just be a temporary fix. They would still need assistance in a year or a month. If you sold the camper, what would that change, really? Your children will just get more expensive.

Is there anyway you could supplement your family income from the home? Or any parttime job that DH's schedule would allow.

Anyway, I don't have any answers because these are hard issues and they are common. Sigh.

(((((((((((Tanya))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Wendi]

[QUOTE=Michelle T;131903
The OP has a working husband, and so they DO PAY TAXES.

Michelle T[/QUOTE]

This came up before, when people were talking about taxes and refunds, and a couple of people have mentioned it in this thread. I just want to gently clarify that not everyone pays (income) taxes. It is quite possible, in fact likely, that the OP and her dh do not pay income taxes, as he does not have a high income, and they have many children. Many working families actually receive money each year when they file, because their credits (EIC, child credits) add up to more than they owe based on their income.

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.

Wendi

[finding_sanctuary]

Just over four years ago, my DH got laid off from his job. One week later, I had an emergency c-section. I was having a hard time recovering. Insurance would only cover so much of the hospital bills, and we already had debts on both sides from before our marriage (mine from student loans, his from unwise financial choices) We thought we'd be ok, but then the expected "next job" didn't come. His unemployment check made up less than 1/3 of his standard pay, not even close to 1/4 of what he made on his overtime jobs (which were most/all of them). It took 6 months for him to find work within 3 hours of home. In the meantime, we scrimped, we saved, we did what we could to stay afloat.

Now, DH had a car. A Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder, to be exact, and it was his baby. He'd bought it after finally getting through a horrible divorce and more misery than he really deserved. It wasn't the wisest car purchase he could have made, but it meant something to him. He'd earned it, and worked hard to pay for it. And when it started having major engine trouble (requiring a replacement engine) just before the fateful layoff, he thought nothing of keeping it and saving the money to fix it. Then he got his pink slip, his job possibilities dried up to nil, and we could barely buy groceries. But he couldn't sell the car, he just couldn't. He was already depressed by being unable support his family as well as he felt it was his duty to do; asking him to give up the car he'd worked so hard for was a blow to his ego and identity.

I went on WIC, and did so with no qualms. For the (very few) months we were on the program, it was our saving grace. Even the little money we saved in using it made a huge difference -- the difference between barely getting by (and sinking fast) and actually getting OUT of the mess we were in.

Now, by the opinions of some here in this thread, I was wrong to accept WIC. I could have forced my DH to sell his car, thereby "saving" us from needing government assistance. I could have asked him to sell his swords and exotic weapons collection, every piece of which was irreplaceable. Instead, I went on WIC so I could give our family a little bit of healthy food that wasn't the result of a food-bills-debts-or-diapers? decision-making process, wherein the other categories were slighted to produce it. And we got out of the hole. He finally found a job, and worked his tail off. I finished out my year of school. We paid off the overwhelming medical bills. We got OUT, and all because I wasn't too proud to accept some milk and cheese without guilt. Now, 4 years later, we're doing well. We just bought a nice, reasonable house. In another 4 years, we will have paid it off, along with the rest of my student loans and our remaining debts. We'll have to work hard to get there (esp. with the uncertain economy), but we'll do it.

Sometimes things don't always go as planned. You have a baby, then get a pink slip. You renovate your house, and then the economy bombs. Yes, sometimes you make your own bed, but is it really right to condemn someone for wanting a bit of help to get out of that bed and set things straight instead of suffering in it forever?? It doesn't sound like the OP is asking for a handout, but a hand up!

Tanya, I hope you get this all figured out. Whether it's convincing your DH to sell the trailer, tightening your belts and your budgets and slogging through, or accepting the help WIC can offer, I wish you luck.

[Karen sn]

Tanya,

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it? I don't mean to sound unkind -- I only mean to say that it's my opinion that taxes from my family's paycheck (and all other taxpayers' checks) aren't meant to be used for families who have the ability to pay for the basics themselves. Your family made the choice to incur the credit card debts and home expansion. Those choices have caused you hardships to be sure, but they were your choices.

It would be nice to keep the trailer. It would be nice to pay off debts. But b/c of choices you and your family made, it sounds like "nice" isn't possible right now. If keeping the trailer and/or pay more than the minimum on your debts means that someone else has to pay for your groceries, that doesn't seem fair to me.

Please know that I'm not intending to sound unkind or judgemental. I'm only stating an opinion about the situation as I see it. I know it sounds harsh, but sometimes the truth *is* harsh.

Just my two cents,

Lisa
FairTax supporter and flame-retardant suit wearer:grouphug:


Actually - if I'm not mistaken - WIC was started because we subsidize the farmers and needed to use the food. So - using it helps a farmer in my opinion.

[Karen sn]

Hey if McDonald's can get $200,000 in corporate welfare so that they can advertise chicken nuggets overseas - what's a little egg, cheese, and milk for a family who pays the taxes that help support corporate welfare.

[Scarlett]

I just wonder how down and out a person would have to be for some of you to think it would be ok to accept government help. I mean...who do you think it is there for?

It is all relative anyway. As someone said, (Sarah maybe) even the poorest among us are rich compared to the rest of the planet.

[Scarlett]

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.

Wendi

I wonder why you thought it important to point this out? If indeed that is true, that they meet IRS guidelines to not owe taxes....then maybe that is all the more reason they are in NEED of some temporary help.

Someday the OP and her dh WILL be paying taxes even if they aren't now. The kids will grow up and leave home, the dh will earn more...who knows what will happen in their life that will change their circumstances. I don't hear that she wants to give up and park outside the welfare office forever. I hear that she has 7 children and they are having a really tough time making it and the one 'toy' they have she feels guilty about. I am sad that so many saw fit to further that guilt rather than tell her 'go feed your children in peace.'

[GothicGyrl]

I wonder why you thought it important to point this out? If indeed that is true, that they meet IRS guidelines to not owe taxes....then maybe that is all the more reason they are in NEED of some temporary help.

Someday the OP and her dh WILL be paying taxes even if they aren't now. The kids will grow up and leave home, the dh will earn more...who knows what will happen in their life that will change their circumstances. I don't hear that she wants to give up and park outside the welfare office forever. I hear that she has 7 children and they are having a really tough time making it and the one 'toy' they have she feels guilty about. I am sad that so many saw fit to further that guilt rather than tell her 'go feed your children in peace.'
I"m disheartened at it as well, Scarlett. I only hope the OP doesn't take the advice and decides that feeding her family is more important than strangers advice on the internet (including ours actually).

And Wendy, just because one isn't paying income tax, doesn't mean they aren't paying taxes. There is more than one kind of tax and it is used for more than one thing. It all goes in to the same "pool" and is pulled out of that "pool" as needed. If we actually had our taxes used as they were supposed to be used, things like this wouldn't even be necessary and no one would be questioning why or whether or not they should use it.

I've largely been ignored in this thread, even though I made valid points. I just hope the OP listens to her heart and decides that it is truely ok to use this because they truly do need it. No one would think the lesser of her (at least I wouldn't).

[Scarlett]

I've largely been ignored in this thread,

That might be a first for ya. ;)

I was thinking earlier how the thread might have gone if she hadn't announced that they have a travel trailer. I think that just conjurs up images of luxury...and who knows maybe they are making a $500 a month payment on it..in which case it would seem a bit foolish to hang on too. And YET if they decided to sell it tonight, there is no guarantee they COULD sell it quickly. In the meantime 7 kids still have to eat.

Shrug. I don't know. I just don't get the attitude. My dh and I pay A TON of taxes and I am thrilled to think a tiny portion of that might go to help feed hungry children. Even the hungry children without perfect parents.

In all fairness, probably the majority of the responders in this thread think she should get help she needs and qualifies for.

[JuJuBee]

Whether you take WIC or not is sort of beside the point. The issue is whether your husband is willing to live within your family's means. If your getting WIC frees up just enough money for him to have a night out with his buddies, you've ended up no better off than you were before you got WIC. (Not saying that's what your husband would do, just an illustration.)

I think the most important thing you should do, for your family's long-term financial security, is sit down and set a budget. Food is a necessity; fancy trailers are not. Maybe you need to consolidate debts/work out a lower payment plan. I don't know. But I do know that you will not have peace until your finances are in order.

[GothicGyrl]

Whether you take WIC or not is sort of beside the point. The issue is whether your husband is willing to live within your family's means. If your getting WIC frees up just enough money for him to have a night out with his buddies, you've ended up no better off than you were before you got WIC. (Not saying that's what your husband would do, just an illustration.)

I think the most important thing you should do, for your family's long-term financial security, is sit down and set a budget. Food is a necessity; fancy trailers are not. Maybe you need to consolidate debts/work out a lower payment plan. I don't know. But I do know that you will not have peace until your finances are in order.
I DO agree with you on this, however, like our wide screen tv or new dishwasher or computers, or pick something-- these things were bought before we were faced with issues and we certainly do NOT live beyond our means.

The point I'm trying to make is this:

-------No one but the OP knows whether or not these things were bought before problems started(even if she did say so)

-------just because one has these "luxuries" does not mean one is "rich" and it certainly does not mean one will have the money once these "luxuries" disappear(which is sort of your point).

-------there is the factor that even if she did sell that trailer, that money would only be enough to buy maybe a month's worth of groceries. EVERYone in this country is feeling it right now, who's to say anyone has the money to plunk down for a trailer?

-------and lastly, the assumption that one needs to be living dirt poor in order to get assistance. Like Scarlett, I wonder just how "poor" poor has to be in order to qualify for what some in this thread feels justifies them going on assistance?

*WE* are poor. I know this. But all of our bills are paid and there is food on the table--3 squares a day, plus. However, I know we couldn't afford healthcare without the medicaid and with a child who has severe allergic asthma and a DH the same, I have no shame in taking it even with my "luxuries".

There is one bane I do have with the Welfare system--the whole idea of taking Gross amount (as opposed to net) to figure out assistance. I keep asking "Why take that amount when we don't bring that amount home?" "That's just the way it is" I get. And that robs my family of much needed help. And other families who might need it more than I.

grrrr... I could go on... I loathe the entire welfare system--it needs a major overhauling.

[Kari C in SC]

Due to being laid off from my job we qualified for WIC for about 6 months until we moved. We had a very nice home, etc. We still met the guidelines. I used it for those months and when our income increased, we quit using it. If you qualify, I see nothing wrong with using it. That is what it is met for. If it stated in the rules about paying off your debt, owning a camper, etc, then I would say not to use it. It doesn't have rules for that, so it is yours to use.

[Pencil Pusher]

I have read every post in this thread & walked away w/out posting, but I can't get it off my mind.

So, will you humor me w/ a little mental experiment? Let's say OP decided to get out of debt sometime before rising costs created the problem she's in. She & dh very responsibly created a budget, sold the camper, & used the money to pay off/pay down debt.

Then hard times hit. Let's say they've got nothing else to sell. Let's say they're already living relatively frugally, considering they were able to work on their debt while still living on an income that qualifies them for govt aid.

Now if they need help, no one begrudges them as much, right? Because they've done what they could to be responsible *before* things got out of their control.

But that's not the situation. On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?

On the other hand, I also see the problem w/ OP's dh being unwilling to *see* that he's not making ends meet. My dh was there when we first married. Through lots of looooooong conversations, we've come to realize that he NEEDS to see things on paper or he DOESN'T get it.

I imagine the situation w/ OPs dh is pretty tender right now, & I don't feel like that's actually a part of the question being asked. For all intents and purposes, *she* doesn't own a camper, or it won't sell, or the title's tied up or something. Hopefully that issue will be resolved productively.

In the mean time, what to do? I don't have an answer. I have strong feelings that go both ways, but no answer. OP, all I can offer you is my empathy and compassion. I hope you find the right answer and can follow that with true peace--without feeling judged or guilty if you go the one way and without feeling insurmountable pressure or resentment if you go the other way. (((OP)))

[Wendi]

I wonder why you thought it important to point this out? If indeed that is true, that they meet IRS guidelines to not owe taxes....then maybe that is all the more reason they are in NEED of some temporary help.


I have not made a single comment about the OP and her situation. I just wanted to correct an erroneous comment (that everyone who works pays taxes). This doesn't enter into the OP's situation at all, IMO, I just noticed people saying this during the previous discussion about taxes, and now it is being said again. It's incorrect. That's all.

Wendi

[Carol in Cal.]

I am happy to have my tax money feeding children who need it. I don't care what their parents did or did not do. They are here now, and they must not go hungry. That's just not right. If the family qualifies, then they qualify. No one should go hungry in our country. It's that simple for me.

Now, should people always make the right choices? Sure. Should I? Yes. Do I? Of course not. Does anyone? Nope.

[Liberty]

The judgemental opinions in this thread are horribly depressing to me. The OP is not Amish, forbidden by her religion to accept any gov't assistance. Why is everyone shaming her for wanting a tiny bit of help to feed her children?

Also, her dh sounds like he's being frugal in some respects. He has a large family, works hard to make ends meet and what other future vacation options would he be able to afford besides camping? Sounds smart to me.

OP, imo, instead of asking the hive, you should ask your dh how he feels about you getting WIC. If he thinks it's OK, than go for it. You'll be doubly blessed: by getting extra food and by protecting your dh's interests and wishes.

[JuJuBee]

One other thing I thought of. OP, you don't mention your religious bent, but as someone said "hey, she's not Amish," it made me think of one more thing.

If you have a spiritual leader (pastor, priest, rabbi, etc), this is a perfect time to go to him or her, explain the difficulty your family is facing, and let him/her direct you to the resources which may be available to you for immediate relief. Then, have the three of you sit down and talk about financial management.

I'm still strongly of the opinion that this issue isn't about WIC at all but about making choices which enable you to live within your means. And I do see both sides of the argument -- i.e., if your money situation was so tight the the rise in gas has made it impossible for you to buy food, then putting an addition on your home, keeping the trailer, and going whole hog on debt reduction are really not the most responsible moves. When you say almost no money, what do you mean? I have 6 children myself, and I know that the choices I make in the aisles at the grocery store can make a difference of several hundred dollars at the check-out. On the other hand, I don't want your children to go hungry. But if it really isn't an issue of going hungry -- if it's an issue of not getting *everything* you'd normally get, i.e., if you could have the necessities, and not the luxuries, without governmental assistance, I think at the end of the day you would feel better about it not using it. Because you sound like a person who is responsible and concerned and obviously hesitating about it, I think you will feel better if you exhaust all of your options before that move.

[nestof3]

JuJuBee --

Excellent post!

And, I am quite certain that I did say I am glad those programs are there for when they are needed. Yes, my idea of "needed" is different from many obviously. I do not think we are entitled to any form of entertainment, vacations, etc. I would not hesitate to seek assistance from a program if I had sought advice on my finances, ceased spending money on things that are not necessary, etc. I would not feel comfortable asking the taxpayers to help me out unless I knew that I had done my part. Now, if I were married to a man who refused to care about my children starving, sure, I would bypass him because I cannot force him to care.

Since several anecdotes have been shared on this thread, I'll share mine. My husband and I, a few years ago, switched from Anthem insurance (which we pay ourselves since dh is self-employed) to Christian Care Medishare since it was less expensive. This plan does not cover things like preventative care, immunizations, etc. My boys needed their last booster shots, so I planned to have them done on a well-child visit I scheduled for the boys. We had not been to the doctor in quite a while, and Nathan was actually late on his shots. I had been reading a lot about vaccinations and not sure if I really wanted to continue with it. Between the doctor visit and the shots, it would have cost close to $1,500. They told me that I could go to the health department and get the shots for free. I paid for the doctor visit and left without the shots. When I got home, I called the health department and asked if I could have the shots done there and pay what it costs them. The lady was shocked by my question and said no one had ever asked that before. But, no, there was no way I could pay for it. So, I made an appointment to have their shots done there. I never did have any peace about this because I knew that we could deprive ourselves of some of our wants and eventually pay for it. I knew it could be done, but it was hard having this "free" option -- my husband and I wouldn't have to stop eating out once a week on our date night, we could eat more simply, positively buy no junk food or dessert foods, I could sell a few things, and so forth.

The morning of the appointment, I noticed a strange rash on Nathan's body. I had no idea what it was. I showed it to the nurse, and she agreed we shouldn't go forth with the vaccinations until the rash cleared. So, we went home. I discovered that it was a canned tuna fish reaction! I never did go back, though (I did have the boys vaccinated, though). I personally knew I was not at the point where I absolutely needed assistance on that.

I know there's not a definite point of need that can be pointed to, I'm just saying that for me, I did not feel comfortable.

[Twinmom]

so IMO, it would be best to allow the OP decide for herself what she feels comfortable doing and go do it. Yes, she asked for the advice originally...but I'm betting she may regret doing so now! ;)

I've got something else entirely different to suggest, so here goes. Whether or not you go for WIC, there is something else you can do as well to help your situation. Have you ever tried the Grocery Game? It's a neat way of doing couponing that makes it WAY easier to save big at the grocery store. I've been doing it for about 3 years, and it's fabulous. I literally saved approximately $8,000 on my grocery bill the first year out! Until gas prices, etc. started rising, I was managing a family of 7 (Mom lived with us) on $100 a week including diapers, and we ate great! Now, it's a bit higher...closer to $150 or more if I splurge, but it could be much worse!

You can check it out yourself at www.thegrocerygame.com (http://www.thegrocerygame.com), but it basically works like this: they keep a database of all available coupons in your area (if they operate there) as well as a database of advertised and unadvertised grocery store sales. When the sales price hits "rock bottom" (as opposed to a "phantom sale" price, which would be higher), they match the items up to an available coupon and put it on a List. (You pay for the list, but you can make up the small price in the savings on just an item or two at the store!) Then, you can print off the List with just the items marked that you plan to buy, pull those coupons and off you go! I don't even cut up all my coupons anymore...I keep the inserts in a file and cut only the ones I need, which is a HUGE time saver. Stockpiling items when they are available at a rock bottom price + the coupon is a big part of how this works...the site talks all about it.

Yes, you could do it all on your own by researching the flyers, bringing all your coupons to the store while you search for unadvertised sales, etc. and save the List price (about $5-$10 a List for 8 weeks), but when you can save hours of time and still save the bucks, I think the minimal charge is well worth it. Plus, they operate a message board that was a huge help to me in terms of learning to coupon, finding deals at non-list stores, etc. I'm quite sure that with all my kids plus homeschooling, there is no other way I could manage to coupon at this level without them!

Hope this helps! I'd venture to guess that you can use it no matter what you decide about WIC. Best of luck!

[OnTheBrink]

The judgemental opinions in this thread are horribly depressing to me. The OP is not Amish, forbidden by her religion to accept any gov't assistance. Why is everyone shaming her for wanting a tiny bit of help to feed her children?

Also, her dh sounds like he's being frugal in some respects. He has a large family, works hard to make ends meet and what other future vacation options would he be able to afford besides camping? Sounds smart to me.

OP, imo, instead of asking the hive, you should ask your dh how he feels about you getting WIC. If he thinks it's OK, than go for it. You'll be doubly blessed: by getting extra food and by protecting your dh's interests and wishes.

Everyone ISN'T shaming her. Have you not seen the posts where people are encouraging her to get WIC?

And, FTR, WIC isn't funded the same way entitlement programs (like food stamps and welfare) are. WIC isn't an entitlement program.

[GothicGyrl]

Since several anecdotes have been shared on this thread, I'll share mine. My husband and I, a few years ago, switched from Anthem insurance (which we pay ourselves since dh is self-employed) to Christian Care Medishare since it was less expensive. This plan does not cover things like preventative care, immunizations, etc. My boys needed their last booster shots, so I planned to have them done on a well-child visit I scheduled for the boys. We had not been to the doctor in quite a while, and Nathan was actually late on his shots. I had been reading a lot about vaccinations and not sure if I really wanted to continue with it. Between the doctor visit and the shots, it would have cost close to $1,500. They told me that I could go to the health department and get the shots for free. I paid for the doctor visit and left without the shots. When I got home, I called the health department and asked if I could have the shots done there and pay what it costs them. The lady was shocked by my question and said no one had ever asked that before. But, no, there was no way I could pay for it. So, I made an appointment to have their shots done there. I never did have any peace about this because I knew that we could deprive ourselves of some of our wants and eventually pay for it. I knew it could be done, but it was hard having this "free" option -- my husband and I wouldn't have to stop eating out once a week on our date night, we could eat more simply, positively buy no junk food or dessert foods, I could sell a few things, and so forth.

I'm wondering if you have a problem with some type of socialized medicine as well, because while it is not free (taxes), it is for all intents and purposes "free" (for everyone).

Which is why I am having a hard time understanding why on anyone's planet, anyone would have a problem receiving something for free? That's what the health department is there for. It is for everyone. Not just the poor(though they are the ones who use it most). The health departments were started **because** of the ridiculous costs in health care, why would anyone deprive and deny themselves "free"? There should be no reason for you to feel guilty about this--none.

If you want to argue WIC, foodstamps, medicaid--maybe. But the health department giving vacainations for free? They are doing it for a reason--they get them from the companies for less than rock bottom prices! Some even get them for free too. The companies are what pay for the health departments to survive, not the people. Why do you think it is so easy to get samples of medications from them? You need something, but can't afford the script right now--ask for samples, they'll have them and give them to you!

Why, please tell me, would anyone feel guilty about this?

[mysticamethyst]

I have read most of the post, but not all. I will state my opinion only because I can't stop thinking about it. Here's the thing for me, that program was and is set up to help children out with basic eatting needs. It doesn't matter what assets you have it more matters how young your children are and to make sure that their nutrition standards is being met. Others have suggested that you sell this camper, it sleeps all of you correct, so if anything of a natural disaster happen to your family would you not have a place to live then. Also, in this economy who would buy it. Not many can afford such things, and what you are needing is only tempoary and I for one would rather tax dollars go to you as a legal United States citizen than to an illegal alien that is working the system and getting way more. I am sure flames will come my way for brining this aspect into it but here in Texas it is a very real problem. I myself couldn't get any help from medicade in paying for my dd $1400 month shot because my DH makes to much money BEFORE taxes, not after but before. But some of the illegals that mow lawns making about $2000(tax free) a week, their estimate not mine, are going and getting all the govt. programs they can get on. Then of course you have the many other illegal makers of money;drug dealers, prostitutes, and so on, that also never pay taxes and still collect from these govt. programs. Thankfully we found another program that helps us, but should I sell my house and live in smalleer house because we need help for a medical expense, no I don't think so.


PS I know my spelling is bad in this one sorry.

[kalanamak]

Tanya,

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it?

interest than I need to:
WIC now, pay down debt faster, keep track of what you took from WIC and give it back when you can! I took a few small monetary helps in college and have more than paid them back, now. If you cannot part with the money later, do some volunteer work when that crew of kids that are so little are big enough to do so.
HTH

[Karen sn]

This came up before, when people were talking about taxes and refunds, and a couple of people have mentioned it in this thread. I just want to gently clarify that not everyone pays (income) taxes. It is quite possible, in fact likely, that the OP and her dh do not pay income taxes, as he does not have a high income, and they have many children. Many working families actually receive money each year when they file, because their credits (EIC, child credits) add up to more than they owe based on their income.

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.

Wendi

ACTUALLY.....EVERYONE PAYS TAXES!!!
Even kids. Tax on gum, gas, in some states even food is taxed.
And the tax on gas is HUGE!

[Mekanamom]

I seem to remember a similar thread on these boards awhile back when I was a lurker, when a regular on these boards had a similar problem. Her dh was also being obstinate about their financial situation. The majority of advice was "give it to him to solve. he is the provider, you are the mom." She did, and he figured it out. I'll bet Tanya's dh would, too.

Things can go MUCH worse that way. Trust me, they can. (Not saying they will, but turning over the finances to a person in any sort of denial isn't always the best solution.) My advice on this to the OP is: Go ahead and pay the bills, but every month, give your DH a statement so he can see on paper where all the money is going. Then use those statements to make a budget.

Take the assistance and use the wiggle room to do what you can to fix the situation. The time is past to be feeling guilty about getting there. Do what you can to get out.

And :grouphug:

[cricket1178]

It is obvious that the OP needs some help from Dave Ramsey, but the mistakes have already been made. Now, she needs some temporary help to feed her dc. What a blessing to have never made a financial mistake, or to have been taught how to make better financial decisions from the beginning, or better yet, have just naturally been good with money and never gotten yourself into this type of situation. But, life happens, and people mess up.

Please do what you need to do for your family right now.

[Mekanamom]

Yep! Exactly.

Sometimes mistakes get us into these situations, sometimes it's just circumstance. It doesn't matter. Use the resources available to you, and do what you can to improve things. :)

[Wendi]

ACTUALLY.....EVERYONE PAYS TAXES!!!
Even kids. Tax on gum, gas, in some states even food is taxed.
And the tax on gas is HUGE!

Income taxes go to the federal government and fund federal programs. Sales tax goes to state and local governments. Property taxes go to local governments. The gas tax pays for highways and transportation improvements, both federal and state.

I wasn't trying to start anything here. As I said, I was just correcting the misstatement that everyone who works pays income taxes. If someone is saying everyone pays TAXES, well, yes, they do pay sales and other taxes. But about a third of people pay no income tax, and many of these actually receive money when they file their taxes. This came up before, when we were all talking about how much we owed or received on our income taxes. I was just clarifying, that's all.

Wendi

[Susan in TX]

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.


While it may be true that not everyone pays federal income taxes, even the poorest of the poor pay sales tax and most people pay property taxes one way or another. So everyone does pay taxes.

Susan in TX

[nestof3]

Wendi, I appreciate you showing us the differences. I think it is something few people understand.

[Tutor]

I'm wondering if you have a problem with some type of socialized medicine as well, because while it is not free (taxes), it is for all intents and purposes "free" (for everyone).

Which is why I am having a hard time understanding why on anyone's planet, anyone would have a problem receiving something for free? That's what the health department is there for. It is for everyone. Not just the poor(though they are the ones who use it most). The health departments were started **because** of the ridiculous costs in health care, why would anyone deprive and deny themselves "free"? There should be no reason for you to feel guilty about this--none.

If you want to argue WIC, foodstamps, medicaid--maybe. But the health department giving vacainations for free? They are doing it for a reason--they get them from the companies for less than rock bottom prices! Some even get them for free too. The companies are what pay for the health departments to survive, not the people. Why do you think it is so easy to get samples of medications from them? You need something, but can't afford the script right now--ask for samples, they'll have them and give them to you!

Why, please tell me, would anyone feel guilty about this?

Nothing is "free." It may not cost money, but it costs personal freedom, availability of future choices, and misplaced trust. That is why I "deny" (I wouldn't choose this word, but will use yours for continuity's sake) myself free healthcare, food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and other government "help" which we more than qualify for. I have counted the cost and it is too high.

[GothicGyrl]

Nothing is "free." It may not cost money, but it costs personal freedom, availability of future choices, and misplaced trust. That is why I "deny" (I wouldn't choose this word, but will use yours for continuity's sake) myself free healthcare, food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and other government "help" which we more than qualify for. I have counted the cost and it is too high.
I don't like our government any more than anyone else, so I guess your reasons for "denying" just don't fly for me and my family. Which is sort of my point to the OP--if you need it, get it. The reasons you list, for your sake may work, but for me and my family--no way am I going to not get what I should be able to get (if I need it), especially if that "denial" causes my family to suffer.

[Tutor]

I don't like our government any more than anyone else, so I guess your reasons for "denying" just don't fly for me and my family. Which is sort of my point to the OP--if you need it, get it. The reasons you list, for your sake may work, but for me and my family--no way am I going to not get what I should be able to get (if I need it), especially if that "denial" causes my family to suffer.

I never said that we didn't get what we need but we have reassessed what "needs" are (shelter, food, health, love) and if we are lacking in any of those, we go to our family, friends, neighbors and church and ask for help. Now, I have heard the argument that the taxpayers (both private and corporate) that provide the funds for things like WIC, food stamps, health care, etc are my family, friends and neighbors, but there are a few differences between my asking for their help personally and requesting it anonymously through a government agency:

1) personal accountability - If I make a request personally to someone who knows me, I have someone who cannot only help me through the difficult circumstances in which I find myself, but they can help me evaluate my situation and help me not repeat the mistakes that got me there or identify the unique circumstances that brought me to where I am and work as my advocate to help me change them.

2) embarrassment - It can be (it usually is) embarrassing and humbling to ask someone else for help. However, this embarrassment serves a purpose: it forces us to take a hard look at our circumstances and make sure we have done and sacrificed all we can to change our situation before we ask someone else to work and sacrifice to help us.

3) free will - However well-intentioned and compassionate a government employee is, the help they are offering does not originate with them. The resources they offer were obtained with a threat of force. I am not saying that the police held a gun to someone's head to make them turn money over, but let's face it, the majority of taxpayers follow the law and pay their taxes because they don't want to go to jail (threat of force). A government, no matter how "compassionate" it appears (through the offering of health care, groceries, and other subsidies) only appears compassionate. True compassion comes from sacrifice, and sacrifice can only come from individuals who feel compassion and are moved to do what is necessary to ease the suffering they see.

I agree with you that if the OP needs help, she should get it. However, I do not think that the government is the place to go for the help her family needs. They need much more than food. Her husband, from what she says, is in denial about their financial situation and needs personal accountability and guidance to face and meet their financial reality. Government programs do not offer that. People do. People who know them, love them and care about them as people and not as statistics, but as individuals who reflect the image of God.

[GothicGyrl]

To save space, I won't quote your whole post just to say what I'm going to, Tutor.

I understand what you are saying and for YOU, those are YOUR reasons, which work/don't work. For ME, they do not and your reasons just are not reason enough to deny my children what I can get for them.

As for the husband, sorry--why should her and the kids suffer because of his ignorance? I understand that he may need help, but how long do her and her kids have to suffer while he gets/doesn't get this help? Nope, for me, I'm taking the active role away from him and I'm going to go get it, go do it, do whatever I have to, to get whatever my kids needs. I'm not sitting around waiting on him or anyone else to "help" him.

[Tutor]

Who said I wanted them to suffer? I want them to get the help they need. I just think that there are places to get the food the kids and mom need and the accountability and wake-up call the dh needs.

[Mama Bear]

The only drawback to this program is that you can't be picky about having organic, hormone-free milk. If the government if offering it for free, they are going to choose the cheapest brands for everything, but if the choice was between being able to afford groceries or not, I would (and have) chosen feeding the kids every time.


Actually, here organic milk is covered under WIC. Cereal options, however, are abyssmal. Cheerios or Grape-nuts are the only things I'd let my kids eat off the "approved" list. Bizarre the way things are decided.

[nestof3]

Excellent post, Tutor.

[Mama Bear]

WIC represents will actually put you just over the line into the black every month, then you OBVIOUSLY NEED IT. I've BTDT, needing exactly $25/mo to remain solvent, feeding/clothing/cleaning for six of us on $400/mo. When you're there, you're there. This does not make you a leech of any magnitude. You write as someone who is concerned enough about the issues you raise to make sure that you'll pay it forward whenever you are able.

Make sure that your dh is truly clear on the amounts in question, then do it, already.

[Tutor]

On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?



Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.

Our family qualifies for most of the programs which have been brought up in this thread, but we have never used them. As "insiders" :D who live in the poorest state in the union (based on 2000 per capita income data), we are actually hoping to organize a protest of these programs. A mass exodus of poor families and individuals from government programs to private assistance, training, accountability and encouragement. We've never done anything like this before but are confident it can be done. (If anyone has any pointers, we're all ears. :bigear:)

[Susan in TX]

On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?


I think that the government would be very happy if everyone who qualified for the government's programs used them. The government views it as a problem when those who should be getting this help aren't.

Also, these programs don't just help the individuals served. Ultimately, they help the overall economy. These government programs provide jobs for many people. And foodstamps and WIC, provide increased profits for local grocery stores.

So, one could argue that by NOT using WIC the original poster is not only depriving her children of nutritious food, she is also depriving her local economy of the funds that would be generated by her WIC purchases.

Susan in TX

[nestof3]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aubrey http://67.202.21.157/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://67.202.21.157/forums/showthread.php?p=133077#post133077)
On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?


Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.


ITA here as well. This is what happened to public school. It began to assist those who could not afford to educate their own through tutors and such but now they are the ones setting the standard for everyone else. Now, homeschoolers are having to defend themselves -- to prove themselves.

In England, there has been talk of a forced vaccination on teen girls between the ages of 12-17 which will act as a birth control because the amount it costs their socialized government to care for these unwanted, unplanned children and their mothers.

[nestof3]

These government programs provide jobs for many people. And foodstamps and WIC, provide increased profits for local grocery stores.

So, one could argue that by NOT using WIC the original poster is not only depriving her children of nutritious food, she is also depriving her local economy of the funds that would be generated by her WIC purchases.


:confused:

My money is supposed to be taken away from me to provide a job for someone? Are you serious?

[nestof3]

Here's an interesting find about WIC and the price of infant formula:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr39-1/fanrr39-1_researchbrief.pdf

[Susan in TX]

Here's an interesting find about WIC and the price of infant formula:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr39-1/fanrr39-1_researchbrief.pdf

This publication states that HALF of the infants in the US are receiving WIC. That is a sobering statistic. Why should anyone feel guilty for accepting aid that 50% of other parents are receiving? And what does this say about the economic conditions that 50 percent of America's children are being raised in?

Susan in TX

[Susan in TX]

:confused:

My money is supposed to be taken away from me to provide a job for someone? Are you serious?

Well, what do you think would happen to our economy if all government jobs were eliminated? Your tax dollars provide a lot of jobs for a lot of people, both directly and indirectly.

Susan in TX

[GothicGyrl]

Let's face it, our economy is tanking right now. If a genuine study shows that half of the infants in this country qualify and use WIC, that is indeed a sobering thought--one that should make people wake up and realize that our current government is just not doing what it promised.

Right now, there is talk(and I hope it isn't true) of Truck Drivers across the country striking due to rising gas prices. They are striking because as of next week, many companies are parking all of their trucks--they simply cannot afford the gas.

Which means---NO DELIVERIES of any kind to anywhere. Think about this carefully. If we lose our truck drivers, our economy is dead. And WIC will be the least of peoples problems. My neighbor is a driver for Sysco and he is terrified about this because his Union Rep basically told them all "be ready".

The corporations who run the Oil NETTED BILLIONS last year in PROFIT (that's after all bills paid,etc). Why then are we paying 4.35 a gallon for diesel and 3.25 a gallon for regular? There is no reason for this, none.

Honestly, Tutor, this is alarmist thinking:
Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.

We are already losing freedoms and our taxes are already going up and it has nothing to do with government help programs like WIC. And if the government hasn't figured out that by the time *I* am able to claim Social Security it won't be there, that they'll figure this out? They can't even figure out how to lower costs on gas prices without ticking of a foreign country or some rich oil tycoon who thinks he'll miss a couple hundred thousand out of his paycheck.

I'm not arguing with you and I'm not mad at you or anyone else Tutor ;).. this whole thing, not just this WIC discussion, has got me upset. The economy, gas prices, etc...

[Tutor]

Well, what do you think would happen to our economy if all government jobs were eliminated?

In the short-term, there would be a recession. In the long term, private industry would be created to replace the government agencies lost that provided needed services. Since those former gov't employees would have experience in those areas, they would be highly sought after employees (if they, themselves, weren't the entrepreneurs behind the new businesses).


This publication states that HALF of the infants in the US are receiving WIC. That is a sobering statistic.... And what does this say about the economic conditions that 50 percent of America's children are being raised in?

It doesn't say anything about the economic conditions of 50% of America's children, but it speaks volumes as to the too-generous eligibility requirements of the program. (Just as an anecdotal aside... My family of six could bring in almost 3x what we do now and still be eligible for WIC. We are currently not on any gov't assistance.)


Why should anyone feel guilty for accepting aid that 50% of other parents are receiving?

Just because it's popular doesn't make it right.

[Tutor]

I'm not arguing with you and I'm not mad at you or anyone else Tutor ;).. this whole thing, not just this WIC discussion, has got me upset. The economy, gas prices, etc...

Well, you are arguing, but I am glad you are.:D (You know how much I like a good argument.) I know that you are not mad at me or anyone else, just as I am not at you. I am glad that there is concern bordering on panic. I hope it spurs more discussion and lots of action.

(And you are right about what you quoted from my post. I should have said "continuing" tax increases and loss of freedoms. Thanks for pointing that out. :001_smile:)

[K&Rs Mom]

In the short-term, there would be a recession. In the long term, private industry would be created to replace the government agencies lost that provided needed services. Since those former gov't employees would have experience in those areas, they would be highly sought after employees (if they, themselves, weren't the entrepreneurs behind the new businesses).

That's my theory too....

I am sometimes amazed how much we think government is "supposed to" do. It's a huge part of our culture (like outschooling). It would be interesting, now that we have the technology, if someone would do some computer modeling of a move back to what the constitution says the government is for. It would be a rough transition, no doubt, but shouldn't we learn from the example of the Romans instead of following the same path to destruction? (Okay, that's a little dramatic, I admit)

[Susan in TX]

"Slightly over half of all Americans – 52.6 percent – now receive significant income from government programs"

"about 1 in 5 Americans hold a government job or a job reliant on federal spending. A similar number receive Social Security or a government pension. About 19 million others get food stamps, 2 million get subsidized housing, and 5 million get education grants."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0416/p01s04-usec.htm

The fact is that our current economy is very dependent upon government spending and suddenly changing that would result in more than just a recession. Eliminating all government jobs would result in a 20% unemployment rate, which would just go up because that 20% of unemployed would no longer have money to spend, so other businesses would suffer, resulting in more unemployed. This would become a downward spiral and a deep hole that I think would be impossible to dig out of without government intervention...think Great Depression.

Susan in TX

[Pencil Pusher]

ITA here as well. This is what happened to public school. It began to assist those who could not afford to educate their own through tutors and such but now they are the ones setting the standard for everyone else. Now, homeschoolers are having to defend themselves -- to prove themselves.

Just wanted to note that in the quote you attributed to me, only half of what's quoted is mine. The second paragraph belongs to Tutor.

And she has a good point, it could go either way. When I reread my own post, I realized I'd left out my main point, so the fact that y'all have been able to make heads or tails of it is really impressive.

As long as I'm here, I'd like to add that I didn't nec. mean that I think it's right for everyone who's eligible for WIC (etc) to sign up for it. Otoh, if the system itself is unjust, how much worse is it for people who qualify to not use the program? Not worse in a moral sense, but in the sense that it's even less just.

For ex, Tutor has said that her family qualifies for WIC but will not use it. She has also said that a family making 3x as much would qualify as well (w same # kids, etc.). How much *more* unfair is it for that family to take adv of this opportunity when she does not? Not to say that either family is wrong, just...I'd like it to be fair, kwim?

And it makes me wonder...do families forego such opportunities for the right reasons? Shouldn't we question that as much as acceptance of them? I mean, ideally speaking? Just musing, that's all.

[Pencil Pusher]

(My family of six could bring in almost 3x what we do now and still be eligible for WIC.)

Just curious--how do you know this? I mean, I know you can look up the income guidelines, but I'm asking what prompted you to look?

And if that comes across snarky, just ignore me!

[Tutor]

No one suggested changing it suddenly, and the unemployment rate would temporarily be 20% if everything changed overnight... which, again, no one is suggesting.

Change hurts, but change is necessary. Our government can't afford to continue functioning at its current capacity.

[Tutor]

I was prompted to look it up because I was commenting directly about the program's guidelines and I always double check facts before I post so that I know that my thoughts are still factually accurate or if I need to reevaluate them (and so I don't look like an idiot). :)

[Pencil Pusher]

I was prompted to look it up because I was commenting directly about the program's guidelines and I always double check facts before I post so that I know that my thoughts are still factually accurate or if I need to reevaluate them (and so I don't look like an idiot). :)

You know, I figured that after I posted, but at the time I was wondering if you'd ever felt differently about gov't assistance. You know, if you'd considered it, & afterwards come to your current conclusions.

I guess I was just curious about the journey/line of thinking that brought you to where you are. I've seen people here post similar opinions, but yours stands out somehow.

I've posted before about similar questions, & I am still not sure where I stand. I see good arguments on both sides & the potential to hurt people (unintentionally) on both sides, too, whether by shaming people out of accepting help they need or by accepting/ encouraging the acceptance of other people's hard-earned money when it's not needed.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[nestof3]

And it makes me wonder...do families forego such opportunities for the right reasons? Shouldn't we question that as much as acceptance of them?

I see no reason to question why someone wouldn't sign up for something just because they qualify. I don't at ALL understand what you are saying.

[Pencil Pusher]

I see no reason to question why someone wouldn't sign up for something just because they qualify. I don't at ALL understand what you are saying.

I meant 2 things.

1. Self-reflection. We (people) get *really* concerned (well, not *all* people) about whether it's right to accept various forms of help. Otoh, we don't seem to worry (ourselves) about whether it's ok to reject help. I mean, even from friends. Help in general. I think it's just as important to reflect on our motives for rejecting help as it is to reflect on our motives for accepting help.

2. In judging others. I think we find it very easy to say that people are wrong for accepting help, but when they reject it, we tend to see that as good, self-reliant, etc. Which it can be & usually is--I'm just saying that if we're going to judge each other, we're leaving some people out. We tend to assume that those who reject help do so out of principle (good ones) and not out of pride.

Please don't take that the wrong way. I just always try to look at both sides of things, for the sake of better understanding a situation. The various discussions of poverty on this board really get me down. We seem to all agree that the poor should be helped, we just can't agree who the poor are. We always point to people in 3rd world countries who are worse off than us, but I wonder sometimes, if *those* people with all *their* foibles lived next door, would we resent helping them, too?

My conclusion lately is that it's better for everyone to help people as far away as possible, so that we can maintain an idealized picture of what the poor are supposed to look like. Honest people who work hard who through NO fault of their own are homeless & desperate.

And in case this sounds rude, I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I think this way about poor people, too. My finger's pointed at ME. Y'all's arguments all sound well-reasoned, or else I'd at least know where I stand on *this* issue. And there are people who abuse the system, to various degrees. Because of them on the one hand & those who judge so harshly on the other, I hope to never, ever, ever be that desperate. Because I probably won't fit the idealized picture of a poor person.

And really, I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just really, really sad that this issue is so difficult.

[jail warden]

Two years ago when my baby was ready to be born, my PT job was cut in half. I had a baby coming in 3 days and a 6 & 4 yo at home. We had just remodeled a house that went over budget(we couldn't know that until it was way too late). My dh had taken a job earning about half of what he had been earning the year before, but it was on the career path he loved. So here we were our pay down considerably, brand new baby, and in the middle of a remodel we were doing ourselves, that was costing more than we thought, talk about fear. Do you realize the agony we were going through, the stress? The thoughts of "We shoulda done this different, we shoulda done that different." We did have things to sell, but when we did set things out they wouldn't sell. My dh also had an older car that he wasn't willing to sell, but at that time we needed a little help and a stepping stone, so we decided to take WIC. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done, because I am proud and felt like we should've done things so differently. But, we messed up and as humans we all do that. Hindsight is 20/20. Nothing we were trying to sell, sold until after we were off of WIC, so it's no guarantee that your camper would sell quickly.

I just want you to know that's what the program is there for, to help you get back up on your feet. I know people who are on it for what seems permanantly and I know there are people who abuse it, but it was meant to be a stepping stone for folks going through rough times. Take it and be thankul it's there to help you. Your husband is having a rough time giving up his camper, I've got a husband there too, but you know what, while I've at times nagged him about selling his car, it wasn't until I stepped back and allowed him to make the decision that the car went up for sale. I would encourage you to take your dh through Financial Peace, Dave Ramsey can fire up unmotivated spouses in great ways. It took until this last Sept when we went through the class to get my dh on board. It's still not easy, but at least we're closer to being on the same page than we have ever been. I say all this to encourage you. I think we all need to remember grace. God gives it to us freely, we just have to be willing to accept it and show it to others also. :grouphug:

[jail warden]

:blush:

[Soph the vet]

I have actually read all 11 pages of posts. Here's my two cents. To the OP do what you need to do in the short run to feed your kids, but don't feed your dh....as much maybe...until he sees the gravity of the situation so communication can flow and the two of you can have a unified approach to solving the problem.
Other thoughts, I liked whoever posted about getting back to the constitution and understanding what the government is responsible to us for and no more. IMO our government is oversized, overpaid, and extremely wasteful. Unfortunately, due to today's family dynamics (i.e. living far from extended family, single-parent households, lack of real relationships with other people because we spend so much time in front of various "screens" in our homes and commute long distances alone in a car and then work in a cube farm well walled-off from our fellow workers and only communicate via email and text messages, etc.) we look to the government first to meet all of our needs instead of family, church, private non-government non-profits, etc. The marketing machine that drives our economy also drives our plunge into debt.

[Danestress]

The question isn't whether it's immoral to accept WIC. The quetion is whether it's unethical to accept WIC when you have valuable assets that you could sell but don't want to because you really really like your "stuff." I have mixed emotions about that myself, but I think for the sake of fairness and clarity, you need to recognize what the real issue here is.

[hsmom]

I DIDNOT read all 11 pages, a few posts here and there, but wow! I believe if you need it use it, but don't abuse it. I think there is too many people who don't need it and use it, then when people who do need it and use it (your situation) they get ridiculed for doing it. Do what is best for your family, if you need the help get it, don't worry about everyone else. This is your family and only you know the fun extent of it and your true needs.

[Amy in NY]

I have actually read all 11 pages of posts. Here's my two cents. To the OP do what you need to do in the short run to feed your kids, but don't feed your dh....as much maybe...until he sees the gravity of the situation so communication can flow and the two of you can have a unified approach to solving the problem.
Other thoughts, I liked whoever posted about getting back to the constitution and understanding what the government is responsible to us for and no more. IMO our government is oversized, overpaid, and extremely wasteful. Unfortunately, due to today's family dynamics (i.e. living far from extended family, single-parent households, lack of real relationships with other people because we spend so much time in front of various "screens" in our homes and commute long distances alone in a car and then work in a cube farm well walled-off from our fellow workers and only communicate via email and text messages, etc.) we look to the government first to meet all of our needs instead of family, church, private non-government non-profits, etc. The marketing machine that drives our economy also drives our plunge into debt.

I didn't read all 11 pages...I think that I made it through about 1/2. But Soph struck a cord with me. I second her advice/comments...I am in agreement with 100% of what she said.