Please clarify, on 5 Level of Gifted by Dr. Ruf

[melmichigan]

I am slowly working my way through this book, after waiting forever for it to be available. I am confused by what is said in Chapter 10. It states that "most teachers have been erroneously taught that grade level equivalencies on grade level achievement tests do not reflect the grade level education that a student can actually handle." It goes on to add, "When a fifth grader receives a tenth-grade equivalency score, it means that the child is ready for the same curriculum as a typical tenth-grade student." I have always been told the same thing, not to look at the GLE as a grade level of work the child could handle. Can anyone shed some light on this topic for me?

[dmmetler]

I think there are two sides to it.

My DD tests post high school on vocabulary, and seems to have no effective cap on her reading. And she loves science. But just because she can read a high school or college biology textbook in area of biology that interest her doesn't mean that she'd be ready, at age 5, to sit in a college biology class for the time required, take notes, and participate. And this is even more pronounced when you're talking literature, history, or a subject with more emotional content, where there are books at a 3rd grade level which get into situations that she just plain doesn't "Get" yet. I wouldn't want to hand her Hamlet or Macbeth, even if her Lexile score says she could read them.


I don't know that she's level 5 GT, although she hits the top of the minimal testing the PS did, but I think that applies in a lot of areas. Just because a child is ready in some ways doesn't mean they're ready in all of them, and you have to find that balance. Which, I think, is why so many of us end up home schooling these very asynchronous kids-because it's a lot easier to find that balance 1-1 than in a group.

[melmichigan]

I ask because I find this statement contradictory to everything I have been 'taught' about GT so I'm just curious what everyone else thinks.

[Crimson Wife]

The GLE is the grade level that the average Joe student would score the same on the test as your student. For example, my 2nd grader took the Scantron at the beginning of the year and got a GLE of >8.9 for reading. That means the average high school student would score as well on the 2nd grade test as my DD did. However, if one were to give my DD a high school level standardized reading test, there's no guarantee that she would score at the 50th percentile on that. Frankly, it would be a sad commentary on the achievement of the average high schooler if she did manage to score at the 50th percentile. My DD's bright, but I honestly don't think she's actually working at a high school level in reading. I'd say she's middle school level tops.

[zaichiki]

I agree with Crimson Wife. The GLE is telling you how well the child has mastered the level that is being tested.

An achievement test, on the other hand, would give you the actual level at which your child is working. I think the Woodcock Johnson is one of these, right?

[LibraryLover]

This is an issue I know well. What books/material does one give to a very young child who is reading and comprehending at an adult level?

These children are a challenge. I mostly worked/work on keeping my child/children at a level that makes sense for their tender ages/natures.

[melmichigan]

An achievement test, on the other hand, would give you the actual level at which your child is working. I think the Woodcock Johnson is one of these, right?

Is this not what she is referring to? My DD's have take a variety of achievement tests including the WJ, WRAT and WIATT. From reading the book this is what I understood her to be discussing so I am somewhat confused right now.:lol: I've had teacher consultants say that those equate to true grade levels of ability and other administration personnel tell me they aren't. Then I read this, in addition to all the other materials I have read and there seems to still be this contradiction. It no longer makes a difference in my DC's day to day learning, but is something I am curious about in dealing with these children.

[Crimson Wife]

This is an issue I know well. What books/material does one give to a very young child who is reading and comprehending at an adult level?

In general, books written in the early part of the 20th century or before tend to be good for advanced readers since authors back then tended to imply things rather than go into graphic detail about them. Obviously, you'll need to preview since not everything is suitable. I wouldn't want my kid reading Madame Bovary at 7, KWIM? But the novels by Jules Verne & Charles Dickens, etc. are typically fine by my own personal standards.

[LibraryLover]

In general, books written in the early part of the 20th century or before tend to be good for advanced readers since authors back then tended to imply things rather than go into graphic detail about them. Obviously, you'll need to preview since not everything is suitable. I wouldn't want my kid reading Madame Bovary at 7, KWIM? But the novels by Jules Verne & Charles Dickens, etc. are typically fine by my own personal standards.


lol One of mine was stuck on Edgar Allen Poe for a time. Oy. Dickens is OK, but can be very dark and sad. It's not just the sex, as my children have found some older literature scary and/or depressing. You have to really know your child. At times I have found it challenging to have young & advanced readers. I have to say that when they find something more age- appropriate for their emotional development-- let's say Percy Jackson-- I breathe a great sigh of relief. I really don't care that it's not fantastic literature, kwim? These kids seem to want to read *everything* and there is a lot of intense discussion that has to take place at times. I simply don't see the down side to Frog and Toad Are Friends or the like for young children.

[ktmo]

Is this not what she is referring to? My DD's have take a variety of achievement tests including the WJ, WRAT and WIATT. From reading the book this is what I understood her to be discussing so I am somewhat confused right now.:lol: I've had teacher consultants say that those equate to true grade levels of ability and other administration personnel tell me they aren't. Then I read this, in addition to all the other materials I have read and there seems to still be this contradiction. It no longer makes a difference in my DC's day to day learning, but is something I am curious about in dealing with these children.

My understanding of the "problem" with grade level equivalents is that second grade in MD is different from 2nd grade in CA. Yes, there may be similar subjects taught, but it may not happen at the same time of year, or to the same depth. I am a special education teacher and when we present scores on the WJ-III we do not report grade-levels (in the county I teach in). Even within the same county, there can be variances between what is taught and when and it isn't really a concrete way to compare students. Also, because of age cut-offs, a seven yo may be in second grade in one place, while in third grade in another, or even 1st grade.

I don't know if this helps or even makes sense.

[bonniebeth4]

Would you recommend buying this book? My library doesn't have it. :glare: Does it have a lot of info that's not on her website?

[babysparkler]

Would you recommend buying this book? My library doesn't have it. :glare: Does it have a lot of info that's not on her website?

I was wondering this too. :)

[melmichigan]

The biggest difference in information is that it is full of life stories of children she has delt with on each level. I am still working with it and going back and reviewing sections again. I did get clarification on another board for my original question that really made sense so I am still exploring. I think it is worth spending the money if you can, I put it off for quite a while, until I had a big order going in an amazon and then added a few things from my wish list. ;) Some of the points she makes and the needs for students at each level are helpful. I enjoyed the authors notes that are scattered throughout the book, as well as the endnotes which are full of different books and curriculum that are refered to in the book. Many I found familiar, some I had never heard of. The Public School Grade Level Expectations if accurate is an eye opener.

[melmichigan]

"When a fifth grader receives a tenth-grade equivalency score, it means that the child is ready for the same curriculum as a typical tenth-grade student- not an advanced tenth- grade studet.

This is where my confusion was. It was clarified on another board. I must just have a hard time thinking in "average" terms. :D

[Quad Shot Academy]

The biggest difference in information is that it is full of life stories of children she has delt with on each level. I am still working with it and going back and reviewing sections again. I did get clarification on another board for my original question that really made sense so I am still exploring. I think it is worth spending the money if you can, I put it off for quite a while, until I had a big order going in an amazon and then added a few things from my wish list. ;) Some of the points she makes and the needs for students at each level are helpful. I enjoyed the authors notes that are scattered throughout the book, as well as the endnotes which are full of different books and curriculum that are refered to in the book. Many I found familiar, some I had never heard of. The Public School Grade Level Expectations if accurate is an eye opener.

I am lost; what is the book? I searched "Ruff gifted" but nothing came up. Thanks!

[melmichigan]

I am lost; what is the book? I searched "Ruff gifted" but nothing came up. Thanks!

The book is called "5 Levels of Gifted" by Dr. Ruf, it was originally published under the title "Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind" so you may have heard of it under that title.

[melmichigan]

I have to take it in steps, some of the information is down right scary to consider. :lol:

[Quad Shot Academy]

The book is called "5 Levels of Gifted" by Dr. Ruf, it was originally published under the title "Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind" so you may have heard of it under that title.

Thanks! My library has the old one, but not the new one. Are the updates worth buying it?

[melmichigan]

Thanks! My library has the old one, but not the new one. Are the updates worth buying it?

In looking at the references I only see one dated 2005 and that is when the first book is published. Otherwise I haven't seen the first edition to know if there are any significant changes. I am leaning toward not from conversations on another board. I would start with the library version.

[nmoira]

The book is called "5 Levels of Gifted" by Dr. Ruf, it was originally published under the title "Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind" so you may have heard of it under that title.If the content hasn't been updated, I'd recommend getting from the library or ILL instead of purchasing it. While I'm excited by what Ruf is trying to do (move identification and classification away from a pure correlation with IQ scores), I don't think she's there yet, and I'm uncomfortable with how her initial research has been based on a self selected sample... i.e. her clients.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Thanks I will get it from the library!

[MissKNG]

The Public School Grade Level Expectations if accurate is an eye opener.

Are you referring to that appendix at the end of Dr. Ruf's book? I was looking at it last night and can't believe it's accurate. I was actually going to ask about it on this board!!

[melmichigan]

Are you referring to that appendix at the end of Dr. Ruf's book? I was looking at it last night and can't believe it's accurate. I was actually going to ask about it on this board!!

Yes, that is what I'm referring to. :) I can't find any reference for it.

[dmmetler]

You can get the state standards for various grades online, usually from the state DOE website. Math and Reading are the easiest to judge-Science and Social Studies are usually so open ended and general that the same standards listed for 1st grade could be applied to a graduate thesis, (I think one of my favorites was "TLW explain World War II" for elementary school US history).