How important is using an English curriculum

[Luanne]

that teaches grammar, etc. Is there anyway I can learn to write well without knowing what a prepositional phrase is or how to diagram a sentence correctly?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think a strong knowledge of grammar gives you more comfort in writing. My hubby is working on his Master's and in the beginning I helped him a lot with his papers. He just didn't have a strong enough foundation in grammar to write well, despite attending a somewhat prestigious boarding school for high school and graduating second in his class. After I had helped him with several papers and explained where he was going wrong his papers are much better and it's less work for him.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I think a basic knowledge of foundational grammar is important to writing well. I don't know if detailed diagramming is necessary, but, I'm kind of a geek that way, I love grammar.:D

[TracyR]

I'm in agreement with Mrs. Mungo . In order to write well you need a strong foundation with grammer . It makes the whole process of writing much easier .

[Kathie in VA]

Maybe it's just me but I think a good foundation in grammar gives you more then grammar and writing. It gives you a better ability to edit yours or someone else's paper. But it also helps with reading and comprehension. I know it has helped me when reading anything a bit difficult. Especially with a long sentence, being able to sort thru it and find the subject and simple predicate helps to identify the main idea. You can do the same for oral info if you can remember it long enough.

I found my kids and I doing some of this when we were doing informal logic and determining if something was a fallacy. "Wait, what are they saying? Blah, blah, blah.... Okay kids let's go back and find the subject & predicate.... oh see, that blah, blah stuff was just an adjective, not the main idea"

hth

[Jenny in Atl]

YES! I grew up during the whole "new" math and creative writing craze in the 70's. My grammar is awful because of it, and I'm still struggling to improve my skills. My writing has improved over the years, while teaching my two, but I feel cheated for not having had that foundation to begin with. College, my work outside the home, etc all would have been more pleasurable and less embarrassing. Nothing worse that sounding great when you talk but looking like a total idiot on paper. :willy_nilly:

[Linda...inOwasso]

Vitally Important! An absolute necessity. Just as you can't eat junk food and expect to be healthy; you can't bypass grammar and expect to be able to write well. I don't believe it's possible.

[Ellie]

JMHO--I don't think you need to be able to diagram a sentence, but yes, you do need to know what a preprositional phrase is, and understand subject/verb agreement, and when to use lie/lay, they're/their/there and its/it's, and that your pronouns must match their antecedents in number and gender. You can do lots of writing without knowing those things, but your readers will struggle to understand what you mean, and then what would be the point?

I also don't think you need to study grammar for 12 years, but you do need a *few* good years along the way.

[Linda...inOwasso]

Agreeing with Ellie. Wow, so sorry my post sounded really umm... blunt. My hormones seem to be swinging! Please disregard the snippy tone. :)

[Luanne]

Agreeing with Ellie. Wow, so sorry my post sounded really umm... blunt. My hormones seem to be swinging! Please disregard the snippy tone. :)

I honestly didn't even take it that way. :001_smile:

[pixelroper]

Had to jump in here, personally- the most useful part of studying grammar is in studying foreign languages. I had several years of Sp. in hs and while I got by, the finer points where lost. In attempting to teach my own dd Latin, etc. learning the grammar terms and really ripping a sentence apart is making other languages easier for me. It may be just the way I learn best, I'm not sure. So thats my rational behind grammar (& Latin/foreign language). :)

[Laura Corin]

Vitally Important! An absolute necessity. Just as you can't eat junk food and expect to be healthy; you can't bypass grammar and expect to be able to write well. I don't believe it's possible.

I actually believe very strongly that you can learn to write well without studying much formal grammar. However, from reading Luanne's posts on the old and new boards, I understand that what she is seeking is remedial self-education. In this case, I think there is a place for grammar.

FWIW, my boys both write well despite having had very little training in formal grammar. They have, however, been immersed in good style from birth.

Best wishes

Laura

[Peela]

Agreeing with Laura.
I do think it is quite possible to write well without having an in depth knowledge of grammar. Growing up in an environment where people speak fairly well, (as in, they speak good English rather than poor) and being exposed to good literature, a child can naturally absorb good language skills. I remember writing just like Jane Austen for a while in my teens, after reading P&P in highschool. It can be intuitive for many children. In fact, I have yet to see my ds12, who knows how to diagram sentences and has been learning grammar for years, write well...one does not lead to the other! The only times I feel he writes well are when he is really inspired..and then the mechanics will usually be terrible. Good mechanics don't make good writing, and vice versa.

Somewhere along the line though, I do think it is important for some people somewhere to learn their grammar thoroughly, otherwise it will become a completely lost art/science (whichever it is, I am not sure!). I think that might lead to the overall deterioration of the English language, if there was no one to set a standard. But I am not sure that large amounts of grammar past correct spelling, punctuation rules and rules of agreement leads to good writing at all, and I am very sure that there can be good writing without understanding consciously the mechanics of grammar- although it will be understood intuitively.

I am not a university lecturer though, marking hundred's of student's work- only speaking from my own limited experience. My English father used to mark down his physics students' work for poor grammar, or illegible handwriting, because it made his work reading it harder- my mother used to be horrified at that.

I think its putting the cart before the horse, actually. I don't see any harm in learning basic grammar early on, while its easy to memorise. But to me, learning to write well is just a completely different paradigm. Now later on, you can look back on your writing and analyse it using knowledge of grammar....but first you gotta find your voice, and I think mechanical writing according to too many guidelines can be rather stifling at some stages of kids development of writing skills.

Although it might sound like I disagree, I love SWB's thoughts on development of writing skills. But her ideas on writing stand alone, with or without an in depth understanding of sentence diagramming etc.

I have enjoyed learning to diagram sentences, since it is virtually unknown here in Australia, but it hasn't helped my writing, that I know of, and it doesn't seem to help my kids' either. One writes well and one doesn't. Both have a fair bit of grammar background now. Learning to diagram sentences seems to help them....learn to diagram sentences. Maybe it will all come together later, or maybe its all been an interesting exercise in exposure to a part of U.S. culture.

[Laura Corin]

Lovely to 'see' you, Peela.

Laura

[Beth in Central TX]

In order to write effectively, I think that grammatical knowledge is a must. Below is an excerpt from the Preface of Descriptive English Grammar (copyright 1931). It came to mind as I read your question.

"Grammar is coming back into the schools of America through the colleges. It is in these that the necessity of a broad acquaintance with English fundamentals is now most keenly felt. Teachers of rhetoric who despair of getting well-phrased and intelligently punctuated writing from students ignorant of case and mode and the shape of sentences, and teachers of literature who want their hearers to share their own sense of the dignity and beauty of grammatical form, are beginning to insist that the fine science of speech be reknown by the many as it is still known by the few. They are declaring that English shall not without protest be murdered in the house of its relatives; that, in the college classrooms at least, classic grace of diction shall not utterly give place to the braggart jargon of the advertiser and the vaudeville stage. The authors of this book offer it to English teachers in the hope that it may prove an effective instrument in helping to drive home the classic wedge."

[Laura Corin]

An alternative view:

Common sense has much to learn from moonshine (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,1396252,00.html#article_continue)

Laura

[Beth in Central TX]

Hi Laura,

It's an interesting article, but I personally don't agree with the sentence: "If we want children to write well, giving them formal instruction in grammar turns out not to be any use; getting them actually writing seems to help a great deal more." This is the same sentiment given in the Writing Strands program. SWB cautions against this mindset in TWTM by saying that writing is necessary, but so is grammar (pg 68).

I don't think that my boys will learn how to write by just learning grammar; that's why I have a separate writing program. However, their grammar study helps them to organize their thoughts and clearly communicate their ideas; which to me is the whole point of writing.

Here's an article on another book that I have called Writing and Thinking: http://www.papertig.com/Publishing_TIA_Foerster.htm This sentence from the article sums up my thoughts on this subject of the need for grammar and writing very well: "Grammar is presented, not as an end in itself, but as a means to clarity."

Of course I think that my bias comes from my lack of grammar study in school. As I've learned more grammar over the past year or so, I've also seen my writing improve. I think personal experience plays a key role in how we each organize our individual homeschools.

Take care,
Beth

[Laura Corin]

You are right that personal experience influences the methods we choose, however I also come from a low-grammar background. FWIW the article was based on a study, not just the author's own beliefs. I don't know how well-founded it was; I'd be interested to read opposing studies, if they exist.

Best wishes

Laura

[Beth in Central TX]

FWIW the article was based on a study, not just the author's own beliefs. I don't know how well-founded it was; I'd be interested to read opposing studies, if they exist.

But as a CPA in my former life, I know that numbers are what you want them or need them to be. I'll admit I'm skeptical about most "study results" even when they are "for" my point of view. Four out of five dentists' recommendations don't really sway what toothpaste I purchase; a good dental check-up every 6 months is all the evidence I need.

Thank you for discussing this topic with me today. I've enjoyed reading the different articles. It has helped me to better formulate my own thoughts on this topic.

[Tami]

yes, I think English grammar is important. But not too much, too early. I would not start an intensive study before grade 4/5 or so.

My reaon for studying English is to better understand our language, not to write better. A knowledge of one's own language, and how it is put together, is valuable in it's own right. If it helps with the study of other languages, or in Biblical exposition, then so be it. If not, I still think it is part of a thorough education.

[ThelmaLou]

I think a basic knowledge of foundational grammar is important to writing well. I don't know if detailed diagramming is necessary, but, I'm kind of a geek that way, I love grammar.:D

I love grammar too. You want to hear what "geek" really is? My 7th grade grammar teacher said that for fun she would stand around and diagram other people's conversations in her head. I'm not quite that bad. I do catch myself typing other people's conversations in my head, though. I'll catch my fingers moving slightly while listening to a sermon in church. Strange, I know!

[Marie in Oh]

and I was a strong writer in high school. I think it was becuse I read alot. I think I was atypical and would not recommend it as the way to go.