Why would a parent tell their child that college doesn't matter? [Archive] - The Well-Trained Mind Forums (aka Hive Mind)

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 09:34 PM

Recently, when I mention college for the kids among fellow homeschoolers, I get at least a few individuals that say they don't care if their children attend college.

They're not against college for their children, but they're not aiming for it either.

When we (the parents) sat down years ago to talk about beginning HSing we needed a goal. That goal was and is to prepare our children for college.

Obviously, the college path is not a sign of overall success and isn't for everyone.

But, why would a parent tell their child that college doesn't matter?

It could be a few reasons. One, I guess, is that they don't value college as a path for a good life. Or they don't think it's the *only* path, so they are setting up their children not to feel "less than" if they choose something other than college.

It could, of course, be that they just couldn't be bothered with all that pesky work to prepare them.

I think my best friend would tell her three (homeschooled from day one) sons that college doesn't matter. Her goal is that they become productive, moral citizens. One of those boys is actually *in* college right now (dual enrollment), but that was pretty much a default position because she didn't have the time to engineer rigorous high school unschooling.

For me, if I don't see that my children are prepped for college, I'm closing the door *for* them. I want doors (and windows) to be open for my kids. Whether or not they walk through them is a different story. But we won't shut any doors because of a lack of effort for whatever reason.

GothicGyrl

03-22-2008, 09:39 PM

Because we as a society place too much emphasis on going to college and thusly make it the "end all be all" of a person's life, as if they don't go they are deemed insufficient for society.

Personally, college is NOT that important to me. If my child chooses a career that just doesn't involve college--as long as they are happy, surviving and doing well, I am fine with that. And it certainly is not because I don't want to be "bothered with all that pesky work preparing them".

College is NOT the end all be all of life. It is not necessary to survive and a person does not and should not be made to feel they NEED it to make a living. College IS overrated and since they don't make it available to everyone, I feel that being told one should be going off to college instead of working, is a bit hypocritical of them-- some of us can't afford college and never will be able to afford it. When Colleges make education available to everyone, then come to me with "college is important".

Right now, it's a joke.

Janet in WA

03-22-2008, 09:39 PM

Maybe they're starting to worry about how they'll pay for college, and not having to do so is looking more and more attractive as the time gets nearer. As a parent who is dealing with the cost of college for 2 sons and just getting a loan paid off for a third, I can kind of relate.

nukeswife

03-22-2008, 09:40 PM

Angela in TN

03-22-2008, 09:41 PM

I don't understand the question. you say that parents don't care whether their children attend college, and then ask why they tell their dc that college doesn't matter. those are not the same things. and college just does NOT equal success, there are many people who've been VERY successful in life without attending college (lots of folks who never attended college make way more money than people who've completed 4 years and earned a degree). I don't care if my dc go to college or not. If that's what they want, great, good for them. If they want to do something else with their life, then great, good for them. I personally think that college can be a total waste of time and money.
:iagree: It all comes down to what our kids want to do. There is no point in sending a kid to college that dosen't desire to be there. I have a friend who has a B.A. and she has never worked a job that needed a degree. She's been a flight attendant, worked at a spa and been a receptionist. If your interest is in occupation that you can go to a trade school for then college is not your best bet and that's all right. We will encourage the kids to go to college if that's what's best for them but I'm hoping at least one of them goes to culinary school for entirely selfish reasons!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

RebeccaC

03-22-2008, 09:44 PM

I have a bil who never attended college, thinks college is a major waste of time and make around a million a year for well over 10 years distributing and selling video games and systems. He owns his own company and started it in his early 20s.

All the while I am still paying off my student loan and I have been out of college for 18 years and as a sahm make nothing a year. I have a brother with a masters in Chem and who works for Dow and does not even come close to what bil makes a year. Which just further cements bil's attitude.

I would like my boys to go to college but college does not equate success. Bottom line is college is their choice not mine as is trade school, or some kind of entrepreneurial enterprise, or the military, or....... My choice is to give them the best education that I can that will prepare them to achieve whatever their choice is.

JudoMom

03-22-2008, 09:45 PM

my boys to be prepared for college. However, having them attend college isn't my goal. I don't think a college degree is necessary in all cases.

JWSJ

03-22-2008, 09:46 PM

I don't understand the question. you say that parents don't care whether their children attend college, and then ask why they tell their dc that college doesn't matter. those are not the same things.

Sorry, let me clarify: Why would any parent tell their child that to get a college degree means nothing? (That it amounts to a waste of time.)

and college just does NOT equal success, there are many people who've been VERY successful in life without attending college (lots of folks who never attended college make way more money than people who've completed 4 years and earned a degree).

Yes, but I am not necessarily talking about financial success. Life is what you make it...

I personally think that college can be a total waste of time and money.

Yes, but it can be worth the time and money too.

Thanks for the replies!

abbeyej

03-22-2008, 09:53 PM

Hm... You know, when my mom was home schooling my brother and me, college was always the ultimate goal (even when we ended up going to "traditional" school in high school). It barely even occurred to me that *not* going to college was an option, lol. I went away to school at 17 and finished my BA at 20.

My brother went to college (on a really amazing scholarship), but ended up leaving that school and has taken a total of ten years to finish his BS. Of course, he managed to have a good job during that time, buy a house, get married, serve as a Marine reservist (currently in Iraq). He took a different path, but he seems to be leading a good life.

Now, things have turned out differently with my baby sister. She's simply not motivated academically. I firmly believe she's as intelligent as my brother and I, but she has some learning challenges and she has never had a burning desire for "book learning". On the other hand, she's a world class athlete -- one of the best in the country, one of the best in the world... She's bound for a different path. My parents are still working hard to make sure she graduates (she's currently a junior) with the foundation to prepare her for college if she decides to go at some point -- but she has no desire to go right now. My mom pointed to the pile of college mail that was coming in and asked her, "S, are you ever going to open any of this?"... S said, "Nah, I'm going to run away and join the circus." Which was funny because she meant it -- Cirque du Soleil is actually a much more likely next step for her right now than college.

What I'm trying to point out is that different kids have different paths. And that's okay. College isn't the key to wealth, happiness, or even education. (And I say that as the wife of a professor!)

It *is* my goal to prepare my own children as best I can to have as many options as possible when they leave their childhood. I want them to have the option of going to the most rigorous universities their brains can handle *if* that's what they want to do. And I want them to understand what college can and cannot give them for their futures. (And yes, I'll likely encourage them to go!) I also want them to have the life skills to make other choices at that point in their lives...

I don't necessarily have a problem with the idea that college "doesn't matter". In some ways it doesn't. As a home school mother, I want my child to be as well prepared as possible (as well prepared as any school could make them) in case that's the route they want to take.

WendyK

03-22-2008, 09:54 PM

Some people just feel that way. Growing up my parents never talked about whether or not I would go to college. They almost gave me the impression that they assumed I would not go to college. I went to college. But I applied, I filled out the financial aid forms, and I made all of the decisions on my own. My parents signed the financial aid forms and didn't charge me to live with them while I was a full time student. That was the extent of their support. They just didn't know anything about college. My mother didn't graduate from high school and my father did, but worked in a factory all his life. I think they just didn't see it as a possibility because it wasn't a possibility for them (back in the day they did not have financial aid like they do now so my father just couldn't find a way to swing going).

But I can say that I really hope my kids go to college. I do, however, feel that they need to be the ones to take the steps to go. I will always be there to support them, but I won't be filling out their applications nor imposing my will on them in that realm. And I do believe that college might not be for everyone. There are other types of schools out there too. My sister went to a career type school for a year and became a medical assistant. She is very smart and very hard working, but she was never a school person so this worked out very well for her.

j.griff

03-22-2008, 10:02 PM

Sorry, let me clarify: Why would any parent tell their child that to get a college degree means nothing? (That it amounts to a waste of time.)

Yes, but I am not necessarily talking about financial success. Life is what you make it...
Yes, life is what you make it, whether that includes college or not. If you aren't going to actually "need" that college "education" to reach your goals/dreams, then it's a total waste of time and money- that time and money would have been better spent if it had been applied to whatever you needed to ultimately "reach" your "goal/ realize your dream".

Yes, but it can be worth the time and money too.

Thanks for the replies!
And why are all young adults expected to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives, and thus make decisions on what college course they should take. And why are there so many "required" classes to take, that may very well have absolutely NOTHING to do with what you want to learn? Pointless, IMO.

Kris

03-22-2008, 10:09 PM

I know a lot of people who never went to college who are very successful. I know a lot of people who went to college who are unemployed losers.

My job is to make sure my son is *prepared* for college if he wants to go. Other than that, it's up to him. In the end, college only matters if he wants to go.

Karin

03-22-2008, 10:10 PM

Does it always make a difference? I know two men, same age, best friends growing up. In fact, one was unofficially adopted by the family of the other--his dad didn't care where he slept, and it literally saved this boy (his mother was out of the picture.)

So, the boy with the intact family became a forester and then a lawyer. The other boy started off buying one tugboat. Today, the latter one makes far more money than the lawyer because he found what he loved and what he was good at and built a successful business in BC.

While I'm educating my children with university in mind, if they choose other paths that they find fulfilling and pays the bills, I'm all for it. At this point there's no way we can pay for their college, anyway. They'll have to get scholarships or work their way through. We're going to encourage them not to get a huge load of debt. This is probably why my dd perked up when she heard about scholarships from the National Latin Exam (but she'll have to work and study hard) because she knows that in order to leave home and go to school she'll need all the scholarship money she can get.

JWSJ

03-22-2008, 10:12 PM

And why are all young adults expected to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives

Who expects young adults to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? :tongue_smilie:

And why are there so many "required" classes to take, that may very well have absolutely NOTHING to do with what you want to learn? Pointless, IMO.

The "required" classes are due to what the school expects as a minimum for a "well-rounded" education and to gain the degree. It's generally called basic studies.

nestof3

03-22-2008, 10:13 PM

Because some families feel self-employment is a viable option, and there are many careers one could choose that would not require a degree. I would never desire a child to go to college just for the sake of college. College is a means to something, but not everything.

Our son will have $40,000 saved up by the end of this year (from working his rear-end off) to use in college or to start a business, but he would never spend all of that hard-earned money if he had no idea what he wanted to do in life. We won't apply for financial aid because we do not believe the taxpayers should pay for college educations.

His aunt thinks he should go to college for the sake of experience alone!

My husband does not have a degree and makes a decent living being self-employed.

We have several friends who are self-employed and supporting their families just fine. Sure, they may not have the plushest life, and many of the men actually have to work hard with their hands, but we don't feel we are particularly called to live a plush life. And we do not value the "white-collared" men over the "blue-collared." We value a life of hard work and integrity.

nestof3

03-22-2008, 10:16 PM

The "required" classes are due to what the school expects as a minimum for a "well-rounded" education and to gain the degree. It's generally called basic studies.

And that annoys me. One should be able to center his studies on a "major" without being required to be "well-rounded." Much of that requirement is just job security for professors -- it creates more students. It also just makes more money for the college.

Too bad you cannot just get an education (or should I say a "documented education" for many could get the same education without stepping foot in a university) without trying to keep someone in business at the same time.

GothicGyrl

03-22-2008, 10:16 PM

Who expects young adults to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? :tongue_smilie:

The "required" classes are due to what the school expects as a minimum for a "well-rounded" education and to gain the degree. It's generally called basic studies.
Most people who expect a child to enter college right out of high school, that's who.

And those "basic studies" classes are a waste of time and should only be required if someone cannot pass the entrance exam. And presumably, if a child is entering right out of high school they should be able to pass the entrance exam.

But then, don't get me started on those either because I feel the entrance exams are a waste of time as well. I have a general distaste for college right now.. I am being screwed out of an education because I simply cannot afford it. My girls are going to be screwed out of one becaue there is no way we can afford it.

IF they are lucky, they will get some type of scholarship. But who knows. Right now, college is just not on the top of my "GO! YEAH!" list.

Karen in CO

03-22-2008, 10:28 PM

For me, if I don't see that my children are prepped for college, I'm closing the door *for* them. I want doors (and windows) to be open for my kids. Whether or not they walk through them is a different story. But we won't shut any doors because of a lack of effort for whatever reason.
:iagree:

If I don't help to prepare them for college, then haven't I failed in homeschooling? If they are well-educated and could get into any college they wanted but chose to not go, then that is their choice. But if I don't buy the books and make the plan for them to have at least the minimum that most schools require, then I am certainly not doing my job as a homeschool parent. Three years of high school math isn't an option for every child, but for the ones that are able they should have at least that.

Come people. Sure, you can go far without college, but as home educators don't we have to aim at something?

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 10:28 PM

But then, don't get me started on those either because I feel the entrance exams are a waste of time as well. I have a general distaste for college right now.. I am being screwed out of an education because I simply cannot afford it. My girls are going to be screwed out of one becaue there is no way we can afford it.

Well, I worked (or will work to pay back) to pay for college, so it can be done. It might not be feasible for everyone, but even with not one dime of parent help, dh finished school. (I had a few dimes from parents in the beginning, but next to nothing of that 2 1/2 years transferred.)

Lots and lots of parents are of the mindset that they simply will not pay for their children's college. And so they don't, simple as that. But their kids aren't screwed out of an education. They just find other ways to finance it other than parental $$. (And frankly, for some kids I don't think that's a bad thing. I've seen tens of thousands of dollars squandered by teens with absolutely no direction in life. Less would be squandered by those particular teens if they had to work for the money themselves, IMO. (And yes, I'm well aware that there are even more teens who are eternally grateful and are applied and motivated and graduate on time via daddy's money.))

I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now.

Plaid Dad

03-22-2008, 10:29 PM

One reason is that, for some (many?) students, all college gets them is a pile of debt. They are no better educated and no more employable than they were when they went in - just poorer.

If the purpose of going to college is "to get a better job" - as most Americans believe - then most students would do better to get focused, short-term vocational training at whatever level is appropriate to their goals than to go up to $100,000 in debt in the space of four years.

Jami

03-22-2008, 10:29 PM

I'm certainly not in the "college is necessary for a good life (financial, academic, etc) camp. Dh works for and with some incredibly talented programmers, designers, and entrepreneurs who are self-taught or were mentored in their skills by others rather than college educated. Dh himself has a philosophy degree which did not contribute that much to his practical job training. BUT he (and I) did grow as people and thinkers in college, so it does have that value beyond job training. Being exposed to a wide variety of ideas, people, and mentors may be the very thing that introduces my child to the perfect vocational fit for their gifts and talents.

But I do think that a parent who does not educate their child so that college *could* be a future open door does that child a disservice. Our children are not likely to know the full-extent of their talents or interests at these ages and a broad preparation that makes many future choices possible is a gift to them.

Jami

JWSJ

03-22-2008, 10:35 PM

Karen sn

03-22-2008, 10:36 PM

Ummmm....because I am now $40,000 in debt for a Bachelor of Social Work and I never made any money with it because you really need a masters. When I realized this, I decided to go back for 2 years and be a registered nurse instead. All of my electives had been science so I got right in to core nursing classes and it only took two years - same time it would have taken to get the MSW.

Let's face it - nurses can go and work anywhere for good money and will ALWAYS have a job. Not so my experience in the field of social work.

College is good I guess for a zillion reasons - met so many other young wonderful diverse kids. Did so many things -rock climbing club, FSU rowing team, running 5K's, cool roommate experiences.

But for all the debt?

I tell my kid she's going to college. But between us - when I save her $ and she's 18 she can either buy land or school with it.

And I support all kids who take a year off. Going back when you're really ready is fun - I enjoyed school much more the second time around. I think SOME young kids should travel the world before college or set off on some big adventure.

Daisy

03-22-2008, 10:38 PM

College is not the "goal" of our homeschool. College-ready is one of our goals. I expect my children to have received the education necessary to be able to pursue whatever field of study or vocation they choose. I do not immediately assume that includes college (although Dh and I, both have degrees). If asked by another homeschooler, I may have responded with something like, "College isn't really our end-goal. We want our children spiritually and academically ready for whatever God has in store for their life."

We also don't plan on paying for our children's college education but that is another thread entirely. LOL.

pixelroper

03-22-2008, 10:38 PM

as to the 'why' would they say that- I know a few and while I won't list all the variations here is the 'general summation' of "why" they say this: they view college as an extension of ps, and their reasons for hs are the same reasons they object to/reject college.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 10:39 PM

And that annoys me. One should be able to center his studies on a "major" without being required to be "well-rounded." Much of that requirement is just job security for professors -- it creates more students. It also just makes more money for the college.

Too bad you cannot just get an education (or should I say a "documented education" for many could get the same education without stepping foot in a university) without trying to keep someone in business at the same time.

Hmm, well, I have to say I'm a big fan of the liberal arts model. It expanded my little world way back in the day. It annoys the stuffing out of me that all I have time to take right now are nursing classes. And I'm left wishing some of my younger classmates were required to become a bit more well-rounded before they are let out into the world to be RN's. Lots of narrowness and cultural inbreeding here in East TN, where many of my classmates have grown up and will never leave.

GothicGyrl

03-22-2008, 10:41 PM

:iagree:

If I don't help to prepare them for college, then haven't I failed in homeschooling? If they are well-educated and could get into any college they wanted but chose to not go, then that is their choice. But if I don't buy the books and make the plan for them to have at least the minimum that most schools require, then I am certainly not doing my job as a homeschool parent. Three years of high school math isn't an option for every child, but for the ones that are able they should have at least that.

Come people. Sure, you can go far without college, but as home educators don't we have to aim at something?
I'm sure you probably are speaking of just yourself, but I kind of resent the comment about "failing in homeschooling" if one doesn't prep their kids for college.

No, I emphatically do NOT consider you or anyone else a failure for not prepping your kids for college. Not one whit. As others have pointed out, college just is not what it is cracked up to be. My job right now, is to educate them as best I can. Using every means available to me.

It does not make me a failure at homeschooling(or anyone else for that matter) if we don't "prep" our kids for college and they don't go.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 10:41 PM

Plaid Dad

03-22-2008, 10:43 PM

Yes, but to clarify: college doesn't have to cost $100K. For example, community college is within reach for many people.

Yeahbut, if the goal is better employment, a CC degree isn't going to cut it in all situations. I used to work for a company that processes resumes for all kinds of corporations, and companies routinely screened out candidates whose degrees came from community colleges. That's not to say that there's no value at all in them - particularly as a stepping stone to other schools - only that there's a limit to the doors a CC degree alone will open.

GothicGyrl

03-22-2008, 10:44 PM

Yes, but to clarify: college doesn't have to cost $100K. For example, community college is within reach for many people.
Research it, closely please.

Community College is NOT within reach of many. In fact, one still has to qualify financially, in order to enter CC--one has to take an entrance exam, which means pay for more "basic classes" than one needs, should they not do to well on the exam. Which means that 2 year AA, becomes a 4 year and sometimes "never year" AA.

Sorry, it is unrealistic to assume everyone can afford to go or even "find the means". I am not willing to live by "pennies" for this "education". I am not willing to worry about how bills will get paid while I get this highly "prized" education. Nope. And I won't force my kids to think they need to either.

Sue G in PA

03-22-2008, 10:47 PM

I got my degree in Psych knowing full well that to pursue that field at all I'd have to go on to get my Masters Degree. Well, dh got a degree in Theatre Arts :001_huh: and is now in the education field (NOT teaching Theatre although he did for a time in a city hs). My parents, God bless them, went into major debt to fund my college years. Now, here I sit, married, with almost 7 kids and absolutely nothing to show for my pricey college education (except my dh and the kids :D). I wonder sometimes if my folks are disappointed. Both dh and I also found when we were job hunting that employers cared less about our pricey college education than the specific skills that we had. Funny, but that pricey college didn't really teach us any real-life skills, KWIM? I, fortunately, learned many job related skills on my own. Anyway, I'm certainly not poo-pooing college. I'd LOVE for my dc to go...I had a terrific experience that certainly helped shape who I am today. But, I also realize that college is not the end all, be all when it comes to high paying jobs or job security. I'd honestly love to teach my children the skills necessary to go into business for themselves one day. Plus, I don't know yet what God has planned for them and that's probably my most important goal for them...to follow God's calling on their life and do what He has for them to do. Great thread, btw...sure gets you thinking about goals!

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 10:47 PM

It does not make me a failure at homeschooling(or anyone else for that matter) if we don't "prep" our kids for college and they don't go.

How about if I don't prepare a child who is capable of college and they *can't* go because I don't bother to ensure they are educated to the extent of their ability? Would you consider that a failure?

What is your goal of homeschooling? Mine is to open doors and to have moral, productive citizens, but not necessarily only college doors. Not to exclude that, but not to single that as the Ultimate Option.

("Productive citizenship" includes at least what at the turn of the century was a high school education. That's just my definition, but I thought I'd define what I meant by the above.)

GothicGyrl

03-22-2008, 11:05 PM

I am off to bed right now, but I thought I'd answer you before.

How about if I don't prepare a child who is capable of college and they *can't* go because I don't bother to ensure they are educated to the extent of their ability? Would you consider that a failure?

I guess my thinking on this is: to whose extent are we speaking--the "I know he can do it, therefore he will" extent or the "I know he can do it, but he's also showing signs of going down a path much different than what I would choose" extent?

EG: is it a path you think he should go down or are you really letting him choose the path he wishes? Or even better: "My kid ain't gunna be no rock star, they amount to nuthin' good" (which is not true, but believed by so many) and this line of thinking then makes the child alienated towards you because "daddy is disappointed I won't go in to the family business".

For me, I want my girls to do whatever their heart desires--if that's a "no good rock star" then so be it--it's farther than I ever got. Therefore I will not force college education on them. I will suggest it, but I will tell them to keep their options open--one DD wants cosmetology school--great! But that wouldn't be sufficient for some parents because it isn't a "college education"--which I find sad.

What is your goal of homeschooling?

To give them the best education I can give them in the here and now. Yes, I do educate them well beyond their peers and what they would be doing in PS, but that does not mean I am doing so with college preparation in mind. So my kid doesn't score well on the SAT.. so what?!

It's like sports--some parents are so wrapped up in sports and their kids particpating that anything short of "success" is failure. And that stinks. The SAT is not the end all of life either and neither is sports.

But I can assure you my kid won't be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. And even if they did, that's more than I can say about some people and their work ethic.

Jean in Newcastle

03-22-2008, 11:08 PM

My goal for my children is for them to be liberally educated - that means being well rounded in the humanities, sciences, and the arts. I chose classical education and Charlotte Mason education because I think both promote a liberal arts education. I think a good college degree CAN be a further step in being liberally educated. But I also realize that you can do an awful lot with a good library and a heart to learn.

Yes, I want my children to be able to support themselves and their families. Depending on their gifts that may involve college or it may not. I realize my children are still young, but so far all of their goals for their future have involved occupations that require at least a B.A. And what I know of their personalities and abilities and talents, I think that will hold true even if the details change every three months!

Yes, I want my children to be first and foremost godly people with a close relationship with God. College may or may not help that - and it could in many cases hinder it or at least be a test!

But I think it is a honorable goal to want homeschooling to prepare my children for college, if they want to pursue that. I may not be able to raise all the funds for them to attend college debt free, but I definitely do not want to close the door for them by not preparing them, if they were to choose to go.

PinkInTheBlue

03-22-2008, 11:09 PM

I'll be certain they have an education that makes it possible for them to go to college but I'm not spending thousands and thousands of dollars for them to learn how to be better partiers (I hope I teach them better than to make that decision) or pay for an education they never use.

Through different circumstances neither my husband nor myself completed a college education and we make a significant income as self-employed business owners. College is great but, no, I definitely do not see it as necessary. If they do want to go, it will take a remarkably focused teenager for me to agree to immediately going to college anyway. What teenager really has ANY idea of what they truly want to do the rest of their lives? What's the accurate percentage of people who are actively working in the field that their multi-thousand dollar education bought them?

Also our income aside, I will not be paying for their college. They can work, receive scholarships, student loan and we'll help some. If they want to go, that's great but again, I'm not spending thousands of dollars for a degree that's often not used and an experience they can better get in the "world" of real life. College is such an unrealistic experience to life. The experience of earning your degree makes it more valuable to them anyhow.

(All said in my opinion and written quickly because I MUST assemble these Easter baskets! :willy_nilly:)

Mama Lynx

03-22-2008, 11:10 PM

I think that in most cases college is not a complete waste of time. I am preparing my children to go to college.

On the other hand, it is up to them whether they will go. I have a degree, but my husband does not. We can argue it either way. Nor will I be able to pay for them to go to college, so it *must* be a voluntary commitment on their part, with enough motivation to go to swing the cost.

I know too many successful people without degrees to think that it matters in terms of success. Still, I enjoyed college, and think that it can be very beneficial (depending on the college, the faculty, and the motivation of the student). I support my children in going and present it as a Good Thing ... but not as the only thing.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 11:17 PM

Research it, closely please.

Community College is NOT within reach of many. In fact, one still has to qualify financially, in order to enter CC--one has to take an entrance exam, which means pay for more "basic classes" than one needs, should they not do to well on the exam. Which means that 2 year AA, becomes a 4 year and sometimes "never year" AA.

Sorry, it is unrealistic to assume everyone can afford to go or even "find the means". I am not willing to live by "pennies" for this "education". I am not willing to worry about how bills will get paid while I get this highly "prized" education. Nope. And I won't force my kids to think they need to either.

Which reinforces my point: the basic classes one has to take are actually "retakes" of classes that a person is expected to have mastered in high school. I'm one of those who only got very basic math education in my private Christian high school that my parents sacrificed to send me to, so I had to take "college" algebra all over again. I never did make it to freshman math, much to my chagrin. And yes, it was a waste of money.

How much better would it have been had I mastered algebra in high school and had started college on college level, with no remediation necessary? A d*mn sight better, I'd say.

So if I were homeschooling highschool and didn't give my kids the basics to start at the beginning -- not behind by a couple of years -- in college classes, I think I would be putting them at a distinct disadvantage.

Which is, precisely, the reason that I do not homeschool highschool. I can't give them what they need. And I'm determined that they *will* be offered what they need. Whether or not they take advantage of the offer is up to them. But I'm sure not going to limit their lives like mine was limited by a half fast high school education.

YMMV, standard disclaimers, yada yada, the thoughts of the alphabet woman do not imply endorsement by the owners of the board, etc ad nauseum.

Kelli in TN

03-22-2008, 11:22 PM

Some sort of continuing education is just sort of expected around here.

We work with college in mind, we work with assumption that college scholarships are absolutely necassary as there is no college fund to tap into.

We consider college prep and high ACT scores to be the norm.

The kids know that at the very least they can go to community college.

I will have them ready for college. I will try to help them nudge their ACT as high as possible. I will help them find and document meaningful volunteer work.

After that it is up to them.

pixelroper

03-22-2008, 11:31 PM

the basic classes one has to take are actually "retakes" of classes that a person is expected to have mastered in high school.

exactly-- in fact this gets me so fired up (don't worry) I have to pipe in-- I have alot of nieces and nephews who have gone to college and feel like idiots because they need to take classes such as: math 88, math 89, math 98...., they aren't stupid (but in some cases have been told so, another story) they were never encouraged or the classes were never offered. Some have dropped out, utterly defeated; others have stuck with it and paid good money for what are essentially hs classes, so they went full time for 1-2 just to be able to take college level classes. Not to veer off track but 'go to *free* ps then pay for community college hs level classes? Conflict of interest???

gardenschooler

03-22-2008, 11:35 PM

:iagree: It all comes down to what our kids want to do. There is no point in sending a kid to college that dosen't desire to be there. I have a friend who has a B.A. and she has never worked a job that needed a degree. She's been a flight attendant, worked at a spa and been a receptionist. If your interest is in occupation that you can go to a trade school for then college is not your best bet and that's all right. We will encourage the kids to go to college if that's what's best for them but I'm hoping at least one of them goes to culinary school for entirely selfish reasons!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Well, if we're talking purely selfish reasons...

http://www.33smiley.com/smiley2/work/other/14.gif I wouldn't be terribly upset if mine could find a decent trade they'd be happy with and make a decent living.

And isn't it funny how many people get a degree then completely do a 180 and do something else - that doesn't require a degree?

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-22-2008, 11:44 PM

exactly-- in fact this gets me so fired up (don't worry) I have to pipe in-- I have alot of nieces and nephews who have gone to college and feel like idiots because they need to take classes such as: math 88, math 89, math 98...., they aren't stupid (but in some cases have been told so, another story) they were never encouraged or the classes were never offered. Some have dropped out, utterly defeated; others have stuck with it and paid good money for what are essentially hs classes, so they went full time for 1-2 just to be able to take college level classes. Not to veer off track but 'go to *free* ps then pay for community college hs level classes? Conflict of interest???

Oh, I think that colleges are extremely frustrated by this. It's a big waste of the student's time, and they know it. High schools are failing students left and right, and I don't mean as in "not passing" their students. They are failing to educate them. My public high school wouldn't have given me two years of high school algebra credit for not-quite-algebra I like the private one did. I guess you just have to advocate for your kids and know whether or not the schools are meeting objective benchmarks. (I'm veering off track here. Sorry.) Anyway...

Had I been more proactive -- heck, had I even known I was behind, because I sure did not know -- I would have simply honed my math skills (with an Amish home study course -- quick, name that movie!) and tested again.

Or sought out adult ed opportunities, or a tutor, or something. These days, I would find an online opportunity or something like Thinkwell or ALECS or both to supplement a traditional high school textbook. Anything but waste my money on a high school subject that I should have had available to me in flippin' *high school*!

pixelroper

03-22-2008, 11:55 PM

j.griff

03-22-2008, 11:56 PM

How about if I don't prepare a child who is capable of college and they *can't* go because I don't bother to ensure they are educated to the extent of their ability? Would you consider that a failure?

What is your goal of homeschooling? Mine is to open doors and to have moral, productive citizens, but not necessarily only college doors. Not to exclude that, but not to single that as the Ultimate Option.

("Productive citizenship" includes at least what at the turn of the century was a high school education. That's just my definition, but I thought I'd define what I meant by the above.)

Um, what could a parent do that would cause a child to *not* be able to go to college? (besides beating their brains out, etc.). *My* goal for *my* kids is to teach them how to learn, teach them to be free-thinkers, teach them to always question authority, teach them that they are priceless, precious, irreplacable people and that they *MATTER* no matter what life choices they make, to teach them that we are all connected and that everything we do "matters", and that they never "have" to fit the "norm" in order to be successful (which means WAY more than finances, IMO success= being content and LOVING what you do, that may mean living like a monk and giving all their money to others in need, it may mean travelling the world and working odd jobs while learning first hand about different cultures/people, it may mean studying their arse off so they can get a degree and become a big whig Dr. or scientist or what-have-you, it may mean they spend all of their time playing and creating games, it may mean they work at Wal-mart as a day job and then act in community theater after work. :D ). I want them to learn to respect EVERYONE, including people who don't "seem" to respect themselves. I want to teach them to make a difference and pursue *their* dreams- no matter what ANYone else thinks/expects/says. I want to teach them not to judge other people, and to follow the Golden Rule, and to think for themselves ESPECIALLY if they are going in the same direction that "The crowd" is headed. I want them to do what *they* want to do, for their own reasons and not for someone else's reasons.

If a person really wants to go to college, they will find a way- even if that means they have to study after work until they are 30 before they are able to pass an entrance exam. If it's something you REALLY want, you can make it happen. Blaming parents is just a cop-out. I say, if you raise your kids and they survive all the years of childhood, then you have succeeded. I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period. Even if someone else thinks they could have done a "better" job, they did the best that they were capable of at that time. Comparisons stink, and are hardly ever helpful, IMO. We are all different people, seeking different things.

pixelroper

03-23-2008, 12:02 AM

If a person really wants to go to college, they will find a way- even if that means they have to study after work until they are 30 before they are able to pass an entrance exam. If it's something you REALLY want, you can make it happen.

where there is a will, there is a way- it usually makes for a better college experience anyway

Remudamom

03-23-2008, 12:02 AM

Well, our oldest is off at college, doing fine and enjoying it, but I wanted him to go to meet people, see what the world is like and get off the ranch. If he wants to do something else, fine. If he wants to come home and ranch, better.

My college degree (and hubby's) are worth nothing. Big whup. Mine doesn't help me homeschool (and it's in education) and hub's doesn't help him raise cattle. Now if I had gone to vet school, which I almost did, that would've been handy.

We know sucessful folks who didn't go to college. To me, college can be a great experience, but not completely because of the education. If all ours want to go, great. If not, there's room on the ranch for lots of hard workers.

gardenschooler

03-23-2008, 12:05 AM

I am being screwed out of an education because I simply cannot afford it. My girls are going to be screwed out of one becaue there is no way we can afford it.

IF they are lucky, they will get some type of scholarship.

Did I miss an update on your college situation, Toni? What about that scholarship - are you saying you don't qualify for it?

camibami

03-23-2008, 12:07 AM

*My* goal for *my* kids is to teach them how to learn, teach them to be free-thinkers, teach them to always question authority, teach them that they are priceless, precious, irreplacable people and that they *MATTER* no matter what life choices they make, to teach them that we are all connected and that everything we do "matters", and that they never "have" to fit the "norm" in order to be successful (which means WAY more than finances, IMO success= being content and LOVING what you do, that may mean living like a monk and giving all their money to others in need, it may mean travelling the world and working odd jobs while learning first hand about different cultures/people, it may mean studying their arse off so they can get a degree and become a big whig Dr. or scientist or what-have-you, it may mean they spend all of their time playing and creating games, it may mean they work at Wal-mart as a day job and then act in community theater after work. :D ). I want them to learn to respect EVERYONE, including people who don't "seem" to respect themselves. I want to teach them to make a difference and pursue *their* dreams- no matter what ANYone else thinks/expects/says. I want to teach them not to judge other people, and to follow the Golden Rule, and to think for themselves ESPECIALLY if they are going in the same direction that "The crowd" is headed. I want them to do what *they* want to do, for their own reasons and not for someone else's reasons.
:hurray:

You said it!

Maybe it will be college, maybe it will be the circus. Either way, the older I get, the more I see life and its options as so wonderful. I want them to see that, too.

Cami

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-23-2008, 12:10 AM

Um, what could a parent do that would cause a child to *not* be able to go to college? .

Maybe discourage them because of a poor high school education? I think as homeschoolers we want to open doors, not close them.

I don't think my goals are that far off from yours. And I'm all for those choices, too. But when one only has Walmart as a choice, that's not really a choice. (And lest one thinks I look down on the Walmart casheir, I certainly do not. Nor a burger flipper at McD's. All work is honorable, IMO.)

For me, I think it's important that I not put barriers in my child's way so that if he so chooses to enter college straight out of the education I arrange for high school, he may do so. If he chooses not to avail himself of the education, it's still on him. But a quality education that meets his intellectual capacity (whatever that might be) will be available.

I think blaming parents is a pretty stupid exercise in hindsight. But I think not being proactive and doing the best for my child is pretty stupid, too. And I'm only speaking for my own self and my own children here. I'm not comparing myself to anyone.

j.griff

03-23-2008, 12:21 AM

I think blaming parents is a pretty stupid exercise in hindsight. But I think not being proactive and doing the best for my child is pretty stupid, too. And I'm only speaking for my own self and my own children here. I'm not comparing myself to anyone.
I agree, but then we're back to "doing the best for my child"- that's kinda relative, everyone's "best" is different from another's "best", KWIM?

gardenschooler

03-23-2008, 12:21 AM

If they are well-educated and could get into any college they wanted but chose to not go, then that is their choice. But if I don't buy the books and make the plan for them to have at least the minimum that most schools require, then I am certainly not doing my job as a homeschool parent.

Maybe I'm not understanding the OP - are we saying that these parents are not fulfilling the basic requirements for high school? Because with that (or even a GED), they can go to college.

I thought we were talking about parents not placing an importance on college, but still making sure their kids had a solid high school education under their belts. Which would more than likely enable them to get into college if they wanted to go, even if their parents didn't think it was important.
http://www.33smiley.com/smiley2/emotions/thinking/10.gif

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-23-2008, 12:24 AM

Maybe I'm not understanding the OP - are we saying that these parents are not fulfilling the basic requirements for high school? Because with that (or even a GED), they can go to college.

I thought we were talking about parents not placing an importance on college, but still making sure their kids had a solid high school education under their belts. Which would more than likely enable them to get into college if they wanted to go, even if their parents didn't think it was important.
http://www.33smiley.com/smiley2/emotions/thinking/10.gif

I think you're right. But I think the thread morphed.

j.griff

03-23-2008, 12:25 AM

I think you're right. But I think the thread morphed.

:D Yes, mutant thing that it is, LOL. It is now a "changling". :D

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-23-2008, 12:28 AM

frustration with my college as well-- was angry no one ever told me to try to test out, I could have saved myself a ton of grief, my experience was the flip side of where I live now, they do not prepare the kids at all, I was prepared and had to take classes darn near my hs classes for the credit- which I think is what you were talking about "rehashed hs classes"

for my dd IF she decides to go on to college, I'm afraid "they" will be very annoyed at the level of interest I take in her education. My parents never really questioned the education system.

Yeah, that's the *other* side of it.

The rehashed high school classes were what Toni was talking about when she mentioned the remedial classes that needed to be taken even before actual college classes start. They are often numbered below 100, such as Math 86. English 99, etc. There's no credit given toward graduation requirements for those classes, only entry "credit."

Peela

03-23-2008, 12:34 AM

Susie in CA

03-23-2008, 12:41 AM

The thing is, you CAN go to college- or university as it is called here in Australia- at any time. I won't be encouraging my kids to go to college just for the sake of it. I would rather they work and travel and experience the world and if they then decide they want to go to uni, with a clear idea of what they want to do- why, they only have to be 20 and they can go as a mature age student with no previous qualifications like a high school diploma. And mature age students have a far lower drop out rate.
Maybe it would be more practical to have them go straight to higher educaiton while they are living at home. I like to try and keep my mind open, and theirs, to all sorts of possibilities.
And for me, I would prefer my kids realise they don't have to join the Rat Race, where everybody thinks they are going somewhere important while they just spin their wheels while getting older.:auto: There are other possibilities in life to getting a degree/job, marrying, having children, retiring, dying etc.
(I am reading Walden at the moment and am most inspired!)

Peela,

It is so great to 'see' you again. I missed you on the boards.

Susie

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-23-2008, 12:45 AM

The thing is, you CAN go to college- or university as it is called here in Australia- at any time. I won't be encouraging my kids to go to college just for the sake of it. I would rather they work and travel and experience the world and if they then decide they want to go to uni, with a clear idea of what they want to do- why, they only have to be 20 and they can go as a mature age student with no previous qualifications like a high school diploma. And mature age students have a far lower drop out rate.
Maybe it would be more practical to have them go straight to higher educaiton while they are living at home. I like to try and keep my mind open, and theirs, to all sorts of possibilities.
And for me, I would prefer my kids realise they don't have to join the Rat Race, where everybody thinks they are going somewhere important while they just spin their wheels while getting older.:auto: There are other possibilities in life to getting a degree/job, marrying, having children, retiring, dying etc.
(I am reading Walden at the moment and am most inspired!)

I've missed you so, Peela.

:001_smile::001_smile::001_smile:

Sometimes, I think life gets in the way of folks ever going back to college. At least, I've found it so. Particularly at the lower socioeconomic levels.

Not that their life is any less for choosing another path. But I see so many people who wish it could have been different not to do everything possible so that my kids will at least be able to easily go *back* to school if they wish to postpone going right away.

I pretty much agree with you, though. Particularly s this answers the OP.

gardenschooler

03-23-2008, 01:34 AM

Sometimes, I think life gets in the way of folks ever going back to college. At least, I've found it so. Particularly at the lower socioeconomic levels.

This is very true. It certainly was in my case. It's hard to get motivated to go back to school when you're making good money (and partying without even having to be in college to do it!), and again when you've got little ones. I'm only now thinking it may be a possibility for me at some point in the near future. But I'm going to prepare myself first - give myself that good education I slept through the first time around.

And if there's any way mine can get a jump start by a few cc classes, we'll do that, too. I kind of like Abbey's 17-20 sprint - she got her degree before she even had time to think about not doing it, lol. The one I have going into high school is definitely going to have to have her education supplemented w/cc classes - she's just too quick for me to keep up with. She's constantly looking for a challenge and conquering it.

My goal in homeschooling high school is to turn out well-rounded people who have a good sense of themselves and can go after (and be willing to work hard for) whatever they want.

Prepared for college? Definitely. I would think I had failed if mine weren't able to be placed in college level classes. The fact that many are being placed in remedial doesn't drive my curriculum - that's not a sufficient high school education they recieved. We'll do math every year. Same for science and history. We have time.

I want mine to be able to have an easier time in college, even have a few advantages going in (I know, I'm dreaming here). Study skills, hard work, perseverance, self-discipline - I believe these are essential for college, and for any other route they may take.

If they choose to do something else, they still will have a choice.

I hear an echo in here.

GREAT to see you, Peela!

kalanamak

03-23-2008, 03:36 AM

I have a bil who never attended college, thinks college is a major waste of time and make around a million a year for well over 10 years distributing and selling video games and systems. He owns his own company and started it in his early 20s.

My father, who was a college prof, was of the opinion that the first four years of college were to simply round you out and give you a grounding in many things. He didn't tell me that until I was out of college-plus. I don't recall either of my parents mentioning their opinions on whether I should go to college or not, but we were all certainly deep in the environment of it, and my dad was worried when his most promising grandchild decided to start having babies at 20 (he works very hard to keep them provided for and is a great father for one so young).

When I told my folks I was going to try to get into med school, I got a "that's nice dear" response from my mother and nothing from my father. Years later I asked her about this and she said "well, if we'd gushed about it and you hadn't gotten in, you might have felt like we would be disappointed". Very typical of them, I might add. I do recall a phone call, one week after I'd told them my MCAT scores were better than the average that got into Harvard, when my mother said "Your father has been whistling a lot this week". That single statement had all the weight of other families tears, cheers, presents, dinners-out, celebrations, etc over such things. Perhaps the people who are saying "college doesn't matter" are afraid of blowback if they talked college up.

What I don't get is people at work talking about how dumb their kids are like it is something to be proud of.

kalanamak

03-23-2008, 03:42 AM

The thing is, you CAN go to college- or university as it is called here in Australia- at any time. I won't be encouraging my kids to go to college just for the sake of it.

Peela! You're HERE!

I started college at 21, when it meant something academic to me. I will encourage college for the sake of it, but only if kiddo is ready academically. I think you and I actually mean the same thing.

I'm fortunate enough to be getting a pretty bit of cash from my folk's estate, and it is all rolled right into a 529 (investments whose capital gain is not taxed but which have to go towards education). If kiddo won't take it, his cousins may have it with my best wishes.

JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

03-23-2008, 04:11 AM

I'm not bringing this up to further the debate on the value of college education, rather to discuss the original post.

I too have run into parents in homeschool groups with a similar attitude. They had already decided that attending college/university wasn't one of the goals they had for their children. (As an aside, this had to do with the universal practicallity and expense of higher education as well as the social culture they saw at university.) Therefore they made decisions for their education based on this assumption. For example, their children didn't need to read Shakespeare because that was College prep work, math or science classes beyond the basics and pre-algebra would not be necessary. At that point in time there was no discussion of vocational education. They refused to see any value in an education that could lead to successful scores on standardized exams such as the SAT and ACT. My opinion, that I would like my kids prepared academically to attend an Ivy League even if they chose a life that leads them away from a college degree, was not well received. I am trying to educate my children in a manner that will help them open any door they choose and this attitude often set me apart from the group, something that was frustrating for the whole family.

FlockOfSillies

03-23-2008, 04:58 AM

I guess my thinking on this is: to whose extent are we speaking--the "I know he can do it, therefore he will" extent or the "I know he can do it, but he's also showing signs of going down a path much different than what I would choose" extent?

Toni,

Now, my dear, I know you've got a bee in your bonnet about the price of college. But just put down your baggage for a minute and sit back and listen. (Whoa, I'm mixin' my metaphors with a Vitamix tonight!) I'll give you an anecdotal example of what I think Pam's trying to express.

My younger brother went to ps his whole life. At one point he was labeled LD, although I think he just wasn't taught how to read well. He's an athlete, wasn't very interested in school, etc. He wanted to be an athletic trainer, then looked at the police dept. after he'd gotten his kinesiology degree because athletic training is a bit of a niche job that doesn't pay highly (to hear him tell it, anyway). The police dept. thing didn't pan out, so he looked at being a physician assistant. He's on a waiting list for PA school, so right now he's in a nursing program. He's almost 32 years old, and HE'S STILL IN SCHOOL. And he's still got several years left.

Now, in some ways his story is inspiring, because he's still plugging away, still setting goals, etc., when lots of other people would have thrown in the towel. Unless, of course, he's staying in school to hide from having a real job. :confused: But my larger point is that his BS in Kinesiology took a really, really long time to finish. Why? Because he wasn't well-prepared for the academic rigors of college. He needed a LOT of hand-holding, even when he was only at a JC. He opened the door to college by sticking in his foot and leaning on the door for seven years. The door wasn't already open for him because IME his elementary school closed it when they failed to teach him adequately. He could be making beaucoup bucks right now, or at least be settled down with a wife and kids. The rest of his life is on hold because he has had such a hard time getting through school.

I think this is the kind of thing Pam had in mind when she talked about the potential for failure as a homeschool parent. If we homeschool our kids from K-12 and they come out of the experience with nothing to show for it in their grey matter, then we have failed to teach. I mean, what's the point of researching curricula, buying the books, doing what is essentially an unpaid full-time job for 13 years? Sheesh, I might as well send my kids to ps if they're going to graduate dumb as dirt either way. At least I'd be caught up on the laundry. :lol: Yeah, right.

As an aside, one reason college has become so "important" is that it's becoming devalued -- it's the new high school. When my dad was in high school in the '50s and taking dummy math, he knew he wasn't on the college track. (Back then, if you didn't have good grades in the college-prep classes, you didn't get into college, and there were no remedial classes if you did. But you knew that.) But somehow my dad managed to raise five kids, send one of them to private school (me), and provide the basics and many extras for us, all on an air-conditioner repairman's salary. And I'd argue that he's still as smart and well-educated as my brother, if not more so.

So you see, it's not about forcing college on them when it's not a good fit. It's about making sure they can handle the challenge if they choose it.

Volty

03-23-2008, 05:06 AM

Well I've just read the entire thread from 1-7 and was in total disagreement with almost all of you all until I got here to the end and I'm so happy to be posting with my page seven collegues.

You can be 100% certain that Team Volty will be guided gently, lovingly but firmly into the very best, most academically rigorous curiculum we can design for each individual child. This has always been important to me, even in chosing their mother, I was looking for the most brilliant, gifted woman I could find so as to have good genes to pass on.

We're going to desgn a K-12 curriculum that respects litearture, history, math, arts, science, the humanities, philosophy, as well as practical things like fixing a bicycle/car, cooking, and balancing a checkbook. I want their educational experience to be rich and diverse and world class. I'm fully commited to excellence.

Everything will be about college prep, we'll try to accomplish ipmressive goals, feats, and activities with our college resumes in mind. My children, especially my girls, will be taught to be strong and independant critical thinkers. It's the most sacred, absolute vow and commitment that I make on behalf of my children that they be as well educated and well prepared as students at the most exclusive prep schools by the time they enter college.

Granted, life may throw me a curve ball. Maybe I come across as obsessive. But if I have my way "not entering college" will never be discussed as an option. We'll always talk college in a way that assumes getting a scholarship into a prestigeous one is their future goal. You all can make the decisions that you want to but as for Team Volty, we don't intend to go to all this time and trouble to HS my family just to spit out kids with the same life/career path as ordinary public school students.

FlockOfSillies

03-23-2008, 05:10 AM

I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period. Even if someone else thinks they could have done a "better" job, they did the best that they were capable of at that time. Comparisons stink, and are hardly ever helpful, IMO. We are all different people, seeking different things.

I think the lady who microwaved her baby is a "failure." You sure you don't want to rethink your comments?

I think comparisons can be very useful. The book of Proverbs is chock-full of them.

Peela

03-23-2008, 07:37 AM

thanks for the welcome back guys :001_smile:

Jenny in Atl

03-23-2008, 07:37 AM

I want to have as many doors/paths available to my kids as possible. I see education, in all its forms, as freedom. Whether my girls choose to go to college or not, in the end, will be their choice, but I sure as heck hope they do, and not just plan on a 4 year degree. We are in a global economy, and they need the skills to find, hopefully, an exciting profession, not just a job. I would hate to see them just settle for something that just makes ends meet, instead of something that fills the heart, and makes this world a better place to be.

JuJuBee

03-23-2008, 07:38 AM

Just because college isn't a good fit for everyone or necessary for a wonderful life doesn't mean it has to be devalued.

Jan in SC

03-23-2008, 09:19 AM

I think college taught me a completely new way to think. It enriched my life beyond any other learning experience. Please pardon the early 90's expression,; it shifted my paradigms.

Yes, I wish I had studied harder and I wish I could go back. I could go back, but it wouldn't be the same. I want my kids to enjoy all the different aspects of college, not just the academic ones.

Also, we have no community colleges near us. We do have a technical college, but I don't think it is on a similar academic level.

abbeyej

03-23-2008, 09:49 AM

...guided gently, lovingly but firmly into the very best, most academically rigorous curiculum we can design for each individual child. ...
We're going to desgn a K-12 curriculum that respects litearture, history, math, arts, science, the humanities, philosophy, as well as practical things like fixing a bicycle/car, cooking, and balancing a checkbook. I want their educational experience to be rich and diverse and world class. I'm fully commited to excellence....

I think you'll find there are a great many of us who agree with all of that. Certainly I do, absolutely.

The difference is that, while college is in many ways a given in our family, I certainly don't think it's the only path to a thoughtful, productive, happy, even educated life. I think it *can* be part of all of those! Absolutely. But it isn't a guarantee of those things, nor is choosing another path a guarantee that one will not have those things. And I certainly think that college is worthwhile far beyond vocational training -- I will not consider it a loss if my children pursue a particular degree with all their might only to turn around a follow a seemingly unrelated career path -- I believe the training of the mind and the development of the person from intellectual and creative challenges is worthwhile on its own.

Which brings me to my father's insistence to me when I was younger that much as they valued my education, they would not be disappointed in me if I took that education and turned around to use it to raise my own children. I think my parents saw friends of theirs putting pressure on their daughters to have professional careers "worthy" of the education they'd been privileged to receive -- and my parents wanted to make sure I understood that the education was worth having even if I didn't make a show of using it in a career.

Anyway. We certainly don't tell our children that college is "useless" or "doesn't matter" -- at their current ages, I don't think my children even realize that some people don't go to college, lol... And I absolutely agree with you that I want my children prepared when they leave my care with the absolute best education I could possibly have given them based on the intellect with which they were blessed. (And that standard, I believe, can be applied to all children regardless of innate academic ability.) ... But I am also open to the fact that I am only opening doors -- making sure they have the most options available to them when they reach adulthood. If they decide that college (or later graduate school or professional school) is not in their immediate plans, I still want them to have the best possible education leading up to that. ... But what they do after they leave my care is up to them. I'm just making sure *now* that as many doors as possible are open to them. That they have strong minds filled with the best of our history and culture and a foundation in math, science, language, and arts. Whether they use that to pursue an MDiv a PhD and a JD or they use it to go on a Broadway tour or to carve little wooden frogs or just raise their own children... Well, that's okay. I'm still giving their minds the best that I can for now. I believe that's far more important than a degree. (Though I agree, the degree is nice!)

Jami

03-23-2008, 09:57 AM

Fantastic post, Abbey. I'd give you good rep for it, but I have to spread some around to others first. :D But I completely agree with everything you said. And your parents are awesome.

Jami

strider

03-23-2008, 10:39 AM

I grew up in a blue collar family and was the first on my mother's side to complete college. My aunt went to college before me, but came home after a semester there and never finished.

My father's side are all in Switzerland. We hardly know them at all. There are some college grads in the family, but most are blue collar there too.

My family just did not value college. As far as they were concerned the goal was to be responsible and pay your own bills. And, most of my family have been happy doing so. I have several relatives who are mechanics and have always enjoyed that work. I think also of my grandmother, who was a self-taught typesetter. In my family, small business owners are successful and happy.

Also in my family, since no-one had gone to college, it just was not really part of our consciousness, and not part of our culture. It was a different world, with different people.

EXCEPT for me. I have always been an academically-oriented, research-loving weirdo. For my entire life, my family commented that I would be the one to go to college. It was obvious from childhood that my mindset was different than theirs. (I am not saying superior, just different.)

I had hopes that my siblings would also go to college. I loved it soooo much, and I know that a college degree does generally bring a higher standard of living. However, when it was time for my siblings to consider college, it was painfully obvious that college would absolutely suck the soul out of them. Three of my siblings are just not oriented towards academia at all, and two of those three specifically NEED to move and to use their hands a lot. One of those siblings did very well as a police dispatcher before becoming a rental real estate agent. One joined the army and thrived there, though two tours in Iraq have driven the desire to be in the military right out of him. He thinks he may end up in piano maintenance (restoration, repair, tuning, etc.). One came very close to choosing pottery as a career, but ended up working in personnel (and hating it) until becoming a happy SAHM.

I do have a fifth sibling who is much, much younger than the original four, who somehow inherited that brainy-weirdo gene. She is presently in college studying engineering.

My point is twofold:

--Some families do not have college as part of their "family culture." It is a HUGE step to think of college when no-one else does, and it sets that individual apart from the family. Whether it plays itself out in a healthy way or unhealthy one is almost immaterial--no matter how happy and functional the family is, it's still a big step to choose a different arena than what is "normal" in that family.

--College is not a good choice for some people. That's a good thing, too. We need plumbers and electricians and carpenters and mechanics too. Higher education really is something that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Having said all that, I will say I have been very relieved that both my kids seem academically oriented. I loved college so much--I have hopes of them enjoying a rich college experience too. :D

Volty

03-23-2008, 11:02 AM

Sandra in NC

03-23-2008, 11:52 AM

Interesting reading:
http://www.educationrevolution.org/richestman.html

Here's an excerpt of John Taylor Gatto's article re: Bill Gates' saying HS should focus 100% on college prep because everyone needs to go to college:

"China has mastered the techniques of the West and has gone far beyond them. It employs the ruthless logic of financial capitalism with a discipline it would be impossible to achieve in the soft-hearted management systems of the United States and Canada.

They don't make things better than we do, but they do make them just as good and cheaper, by a factor of from six to thirty. It is fanciful to say, as Mr. Gates did, that if we just have more schooling, we'll be okay. In the next 10 years, China and India, et al., will release ten million well-trained engineers in excess of domestic needs on the world's skilled labor markets.

These men and women will bid for work against your own techie sons and daughters.

At sixteen cents or so on the dollar, the effect on wages will be a catastrophe for this important segment of middle-class life. Mr. Gates didn't bother to tell his audience that Microsoft has already opened large colleges in China and India to train young people in those nations to its own specifications.

That puts a new spin on his appeal for universal college training doesn't it? Perhaps you believe the corporate policy of Microsoft will prefer to continue to pay high wages when a stream of its own foreign graduates becomes available.

Unless you do believe that, it becomes a duty for all of us to wake up and warn our children because one thing is certain: Schools won't."

j.griff

03-23-2008, 12:19 PM

I think the lady who microwaved her baby is a "failure." You sure you don't want to rethink your comments?

I think comparisons can be very useful. The book of Proverbs is chock-full of them.

I don't consider people who have "lost it" to be failures, I think that maybe society as a whole has failed them, and the people they've hurt/killed.
I was referring to comparisons of real people, and their lives, and trying to compare one persons "values" with another's. Different people just have different POV's, and while discussion is good and helpful-comparing someone's "success" as a parent based on the intelligence of the child at end of 18 years is just NOT a "good thing", IMO. I just don't see the need to slap labels on people, and decide whether someone is a success or a failure. I don't consider a parent who has raised a child to become a "garbage man" to be a failure- we NEED "garbage men" and in some places they make darn good money.

And if we decide whether a parent has succeeded based on what their child does when they are grown, what does that say about parents of mentally handicapped children? Are those children just worthless then, since they aren't capable of earning a degree? (some of them, not all of them). I don't like the idea of life being valued by some general idea of "success" based on knowledge aquired/given. It doesn't mesh with my world view.
Of course, we're free do disagree.

j.griff

03-23-2008, 12:23 PM

College does not equal education. Not attending college does not me you are NOT educated. There's a huge difference between "schooling" and "education".

HeatherH

03-23-2008, 12:38 PM

Which brings me to my father's insistence to me when I was younger that much as they valued my education, they would not be disappointed in me if I took that education and turned around to use it to raise my own children. I think my parents saw friends of theirs putting pressure on their daughters to have professional careers "worthy" of the education they'd been privileged to receive -- and my parents wanted to make sure I understood that the education was worth having even if I didn't make a show of using it in a career.

Well said - my thoughts exactly.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-23-2008, 12:41 PM

College does not equal education. Not attending college does not me you are NOT educated. There's a huge difference between "schooling" and "education".

The most educated man I know -- and his PhD-from-Vandy-undergrad-from-Princeton wife would agree -- never ever set foot in a classroom. He's amazing. And he doesn't regret for a minute the path he has taken.

Caroline

03-23-2008, 12:47 PM

While I agree that there are stories of people who did not go to college who make fabulous amounts of money, the average salary for a person with only a high school diploma is $16,000 a year less than that of a person who is a college graduate. I got that information by checking a number of different references. Just google it, and you will find it.

If my child wants to be a plumber, great. However, wouldn't a college degree in business help in that job?

I agree that not everyone has to go to college. However, I think that college can be an important step in life. I had so many opportunities when I was in college that people who don't attend college never get. I think college can open doors. I loved college. I loved spending 10 years of my life devoted to higher education. (I have a Ph.D.) I love education so much, that I teach high school now. I cannot imagine my life without my education. And I am not working in my field, so to speak. But my upper level math students love to do 1st and 2nd year engineering problems as part of their classwork.

Kelli in TN

03-23-2008, 12:59 PM

Abbey,
I loved what your dad told you about using your education to stay home with your children.

Really, the mindset I have raised my children with is that you finish high school and then you go do something else. Have a good plan. I have one in college, one who bombed out of college but is now working full time and taking online courses, one who is about to start visiting colleges, one who wants to go to culinary school.....the other two are young and don't dream quite that far yet.

I will always feel incomplete and less than others because of my lack of education. I would never want to put that on my children. It is really too late in my life to do this, I would have to sacrifice mothering time to pursue an education at this point and I am not willing to give up that time. I think when one is younger and unencumbered is the perfect time to pursue learning, learning and more learning.

I hope I can instill this into each of my children. I certainly spend their high school years talking to them about the next step. Just as I spend the middle school years preparing them for the rigors of high school work, and their elementary years preparing them for the logic stage, etc. Higher education of some sort is considered the natural next step here and I really don't tell my children that they have a choice.

Obviously they really do have a choice, but while they are young I want them to be of the mindest that higher education of some sort is as natural as high school, middle school, elementary school.

Antonia

03-23-2008, 01:01 PM

As an aside, one reason college has become so "important" is that it's becoming devalued -- it's the new high school. When my dad was in high school in the '50s and taking dummy math, he knew he wasn't on the college track. (Back then, if you didn't have good grades in the college-prep classes, you didn't get into college, and there were no remedial classes if you did. But you knew that.)

This is so true. At my dd's cc, the fall course listings include about twenty remedial english classes and three actual freshman english classes. It's the same for the math classes. That's a *lot* of remediation. I've also noticed that students are allowed to pass classes and attain degrees with a "D" average now instead of a "C", which you needed when I attended college twenty years ago. Makes one wonder what the actual value of that degree is when one got it by being a "D" or "poor" student.

Michelle My Bell

03-23-2008, 01:10 PM

This probably won't get read but I want to throw in my .2 as well. We don't intend for our girls to go to college unless they desire to take a few online courses. We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home. My goal is to give my girls as many life skills as possible so if they ever need to earn money, they can do it from home. We don't believe that women should work outside the home unless there is absolutely no other choice.

But, let me say that I am not against my daughters earning money in the home. My oldest daughter has a flair for writing and I want to give her the education she needs in order to be a writer, should she stay on that track. That does not mean she needs an advanced, expensive college degree. She probably won't need college mathematics to make it as a writer unless she wants to write about it. In that case, we have taught our children how to learn on their own. They are very motivated that way.

Before I ever taught my daughter about WWII for example, she decided she wanted to write a play about it. She researched the era extensively. All the way from the clothing and industry of the time period, to individuals who lived during that time. She wrote an amazing play that I still am amazed at. She did the same thing with a Helen Keller play she wrote.

Now my son, who is the youngest of 5 will have a different track. He may be headed to college or possibly a trade. As he gets older, it will be important for us to watch and learn his bent to see how our education of him should be customized. Currently he is almost 2, so it is still early. LOL.

Michelle

elegantlion

03-23-2008, 01:16 PM

"College is not the "goal" of our homeschool. College-ready is one of our goals." - Quote from Daisy

:iagree: Neither dh or I finished college, I never even started. We plan on preparing our son for college, but it will have to be his choice. We probably won't be a in position to pay for it, so it will be on his shoulders.

Antonia

03-23-2008, 01:16 PM

College does not equal education. Not attending college does not me you are NOT educated. There's a huge difference between "schooling" and "education".

Boy, that's the truth! Back when I went to college, between the cheaters, the partiers, and the jock-straps who slid by on their scholarships, I remember wondering who was actually learning anything.

lovemyboys

03-23-2008, 02:06 PM

guided gently, lovingly but firmly into the very best, most academically rigorous curiculum we can design for each individual child.

.....

I want their educational experience to be rich and diverse and world class. I'm fully commited to excellence.

Bravo!

Of course life can throw us curve balls and not every child is up to that level of education or desires it in the end....

But I think I hear what the OP is asking and what Volty and Abbey are responding to in their own voices. I've been around several families in the past year who have so little expectation of what the future looks like for their children. Not just one or two children within a family but the whole family in several cases.

One woman insists that her daughters have no need of algebra or much math at all. The girls are 13 and 15. So they've basically stopped around 6th grade with much math instruction, and the mom isn't into science much, so therefore doesn't teach it. The irony is that the family really struggles with their finances and yet they're not giving their kids the tools they need, IMO, to earn decent wages whether that's with college or not.

Another family I'm acquainted with has pretty strong academics for grade school ages but then really fades when things get tougher and the kids really should be more challenged. The kids are just mildly cruising along without much expectation, either for today's schoolwork or tomorrow's jobs.

Why don't some homeschool families want strong goals for their children's future? I think you can give your children the tools and then leave it up to them to figure out how they will apply it. At least they're prepared for a variety of options, rather than barred from even considering something just because mom stopped teaching math after 7th grade.

Like the old saying goes, "the world needs good mechanics and plumbers." But I would add, that these guys need a good foundation too, so that they can balance the books and pay the bills and be comfortable. Some of them may go on to build successful businesses, some may be happy as part of a company. And the successful millionaire who was a 10th grade dropout is really unusual, and also really driven.

If we bother to homeschool past 4th or 5th grade, it just seems to me that we owe it to our kids to prepare them for the whole range of possibilities that are open to them.

abbeyej

03-23-2008, 02:13 PM

...We don't intend for our girls to go to college ... We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home. My goal is to give my girls as many life skills as possible so if they ever need to earn money, they can do it from home. ...

I think I understand your goals here, but I have to say, as a home schooling mom who has worked occasionally from home, my schooling has been hugely advantageous to me. I would not be as good a teacher for my children if my guided education had ceased with high school. That doesn't mean that learning stops when guided education comes to an end, and there are certainly home schooling mothers with little or no post-high school education who do an admirable job of teaching their children... But *I* am certainly a better teacher because of having had more education.

I have argued above that college is not the only choice or even the best choice for every student. But I would also argue that higher education can be of great value to stay-at-home mothers and others who do not "need" that education for a career. It can make them deeper and better teachers for their children, more interesting and challenging mates for their husbands, and it can give them more skills that can be used to support their families (even if they never do a day of work outside the home).

pixelroper

03-23-2008, 02:22 PM

One woman insists that her daughters have no need of algebra

The irony is that the family really struggles with their finances and yet they're not giving their kids the tools they need, IMO, to earn decent wages whether that's with college or not.

This quote urged me to ask a question:
When did Algebra become a higher level math?? Isn't it basically solving for an unknown?? I realize many people have trouble with it and I also realize that there are several levels of difficulty, however--IME it comes down to the teaching method not fitting the student. I use Algebra when I'm out shopping- carpenters use Algebra & geo. thus Trig to build, given the current economic situation it would appear categorizing this in this way might be the problem!?!. Okay I feel better-

abbeyej

03-23-2008, 02:32 PM

College made me a better person. It gave me a wealth of knowledge, experience, a greater understanding of who I am and how the world works. It also gave me a career.

I love education, I love learning, speaking knowledgably on a vast array of topics.. You could say I'm addicted to education. I look forward to going over all these things again with my children. I'm a lifelong learner, I read, and I hope to instill that into my kids. Education enriches and broadens your mind and gives life color and meaning. Even without the career or moneymaking aspect, although that's a factor, it's the journey itself that's s big a reward as the destination. For me college was a lot of fun.

The world is just too big, too interesting, and too much fun to go through life in a shell- uninformed and uneducated.

Sure. I agree with all of that. (Well, except the career part -- I took my degree and have used it to raise and teach my children.) But I also recognize that my children may not feel the same way -- or they may not feel the same way at 17. My job is to prepare them to be ready to walk into any university in the world and thrive there (since they both have very strong academic minds that can certainly reach that goal)... And I will help them to figure out financially how they can do that, if that's what they want. But no, I'm going to do my best *not* to get my ego wrapped up in what *they* choose to do *as*adults*. I make the decisions now that I think will give them the broadest options as adults... But I'm not going to choose exactly when or where the kids go to college any more than I would select their major or their PhD field or their mate for them.

pixelroper

03-23-2008, 02:52 PM

#1 I will always feel incomplete and less than others because of my lack of education. I would never want to put that on my children.

#2--It is really too late in my life to do this, I would have to sacrifice mothering time to pursue an education at this point and I am not willing to give up that time. I think when one is younger and unencumbered is the perfect time to pursue learning, learning and more learning.

two things:#1-- you need to ban this thought from your head. I now live in an area where college ed is rare and I see more intelligent women beating themselves up over this than I care to count. Don't let yourself boohoo over choices you've made. When it came to my ed, my parents didn't care either way. They both dropped out of college to get married and raise a family and have always been completely proud/satisfied with that decision. It is because of their happiness w/their decisions that I never felt pressured. This line of thinking-- IMHO goes in the "keeping up with the Jones" category. "Know thyself, not the Jones." You should go to college, if and only if, you think it has something to offer you--period. Sometimes I think my college ed has lumped me in a *group of the duped*

#2- plenty of women go to college for the first time at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, & sometimes just for something to do (their 'mothering' the family job is over), I didn't check your age but I'm guessing there will be plenty of time for college once the youngest is out the door.

Happy Easter!!!

angela in ohio

03-23-2008, 02:56 PM

I've been around several families in the past year who have so little expectation of what the future looks like for their children. Not just one or two children within a family but the whole family in several cases.

One woman insists that her daughters have no need of algebra or much math at all. The girls are 13 and 15. So they've basically stopped around 6th grade with much math instruction, and the mom isn't into science much, so therefore doesn't teach it. The irony is that the family really struggles with their finances and yet they're not giving their kids the tools they need, IMO, to earn decent wages whether that's with college or not.

Another family I'm acquainted with has pretty strong academics for grade school ages but then really fades when things get tougher and the kids really should be more challenged. The kids are just mildly cruising along without much expectation, either for today's schoolwork or tomorrow's jobs.

Wow, I think we know the same families! I see a lot of this around here. Many kiddos are not getting a high school education, much less a chance at a college education.

Of course, I also see a lot of families who are planning for dc to go to college, but are not equipping them to get there or to succeed there.

Doran

03-23-2008, 03:03 PM

I'm coming in late and after nearly everything has been said in one way or another. :) But, this is a topic which has recently been on my mind as we enter the high school year(s) with our oldest.

To address the OP first, unless you have had intimate conversation with these parents, you can't know what, exactly, would cause them to downplay the importance of college or even if that is what they're doing. I can think of several reasons they might do so.

Maybe they don't understand/believe that, these days, college seems to be an extension of secondary education. Many don't realize that in today's job market, a "high school only" education is best partnered with someone who is inclined to work in a specific trade or plans to be self employed, neither of which is a bad choice.

Maybe these parents have a college education but don't necessarily recognize the value in it from a career perspective. Or, similarly, maybe they don't have a college education and don't see that the lack of one has impacted their careers or lives in any significant way.

Their opinion may depend on where their children's interests lie, or it may depend on what is typical for their family. My husband and his siblings were among the first in their extended family to attend college. Neither of their parents attended, nor many of their cousins, aunts or uncles. These were working class people who have done well for themselves without a college degree (I should add here that just this morning my FIL was telling my oldest that she should be looking into Harvard!). On the other hand, I was reared in a family that expected college after high school. Both my parents, and half of my grandparents attended college (remember that this is even more unusual given that my parents are in their 80's). It never occurred to me to not attend college. So, familial expectations do play a role in how one views post-secondary education.

For us, the college years are looming. Until I marred a man from a background different than my own, I would never have considered that NOT attending university could be a good choice. It would have felt like a cop out. But, experience has given me a broader view. I believe that one of my roles as a parent is to instill a lifelong love of learning and to help a child know that she can do anything she sets her mind to doing. I cannot abide sending a child to college just for the sake of college itself. Do I believe that my children will attend college, and/or do I want them to? Yes, in general, and because I do see value in that choice. But, my kids also understand that they have say in the matter, and that we will approach their future educations in much the same way as we have approached these years of homeschooling - by discussing all the options in order to determine which is the best fit for the child.

Doran

nestof3

03-23-2008, 03:06 PM

The world is just too big, too interesting, and too much fun to go through life in a shell- uninformed and uneducated.

I agree. I do hope you are not implying that those who do not go to college ARE uneducated. I see college as one way to achieve that end.

(Just in case one believes I am being defensive because I lack a degree, I have a BA in English and a minor in religion.)

nestof3

03-23-2008, 03:10 PM

I will always feel incomplete and less than others because of my lack of education. I would never want to put that on my children.

A lack of education is a choice -- a college degree is not the only proof of being educated. Truthfully, 90 percent of what I learned in college could have been learned on my own through the many great resources. A degree is a way to prove to others what you have learned -- for job purposes.

nestof3

03-23-2008, 03:13 PM

I think I understand your goals here, but I have to say, as a home schooling mom who has worked occasionally from home, my schooling has been hugely advantageous to me. I would not be as good a teacher for my children if my guided education had ceased with high school. That doesn't mean that learning stops when guided education comes to an end, and there are certainly home schooling mothers with little or no post-high school education who do an admirable job of teaching their children... But *I* am certainly a better teacher because of having had more education.

I'm sure all education we receive is beneficial in some way, but surely you do not believe college is the only way to be educated.

I have to say that I feel most of my success in homeschooling has come from my convictions, determination, resourcefulness, love, and passion -- not from my college courses.

Karenciavo

03-23-2008, 03:14 PM

The world is just too big, too interesting, and too much fun to go through life in a shell- uninformed and uneducated.

True, but it doesn't follow that those not attending college "go through life in a shell- uninformed and uneducated."

Karenciavo

03-23-2008, 03:19 PM

I will always feel incomplete and less than others because of my lack of education.

I prescribe the Mad TV Stop It video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE) at least once a day or as needed for as long as your malady continues. ;)

Mrs Mungo

03-23-2008, 04:14 PM

For me, if I don't see that my children are prepped for college, I'm closing the door *for* them. I want doors (and windows) to be open for my kids. Whether or not they walk through them is a different story. But we won't shut any doors because of a lack of effort for whatever reason.

I think this is a different issue. Not thinking college is the end-all, be-all of an education doesn't necessarily mean you're not preparing them for college.

Speaking generally, I have to agree with those who disagreed with Volty. I know some highly educated people who live in shells and lots of people without formal educations who know a great deal about the world and life and are educated, they just came about that education in a different way.

As far as finances go-in my family I have a successful business man (who works for a large corporation) who didn't attend college, a plumber who makes six figures and a highly educated accountant who had to declare bankruptcy.

Plus, given the number of people whom I know who have gone back to school, pursued a different degree, switched careers, etc it's never too late. Very few people know what they want out of life at 17 or 18 years old.

Joanne

03-23-2008, 04:15 PM

A successful adult life is not formulaic. You can not plan, script and execute a delineated path to an adulthood of value.

I have 2 college degrees. And between now and the end of child support, I plan on acquiring my Masters in Social Work. Not because I necessarily need that info; but I need that advanced degree to do what I'd like to do for income to fund life and a retirement of sorts.

My DH has a degree which he aquired while working as a Houston Police Officer. Obviously, this was a bit later than the culturally traditioned timing for college and he funded it himself (with his wife at the time, of course).

My xh (kids' dad) does not have a degree and carries some defensiveness and baggage about it. He's young enough to still need to work but old enough that age discrimination is an issue; combine that with his lack of degree and *not* having gotten a college degree is hurting him now in his 50's.

There are too many issues involved in this thread to adequately address them. The points I'd like to make are:

1) Reality is that having a degree (often is matters not what that degree is) is a standard requirement for many decent starting jobs in the Western world. Whether that degree is actually useful for the work that needs performed is moot. Many minimum job requirements require a college degree.

2) Not everyone is going to need, want or be able to handle college. Just like not everyone is going to be a "reader", not everyone is going to be comfortable with higher math, not everyone is good at card games, public speaking or planning a dinner menu for 30. This is where offering children the gift of confidence and encouragement is primary. Intuitiveness about our children is needed; we need to challenge them to be their best - while carefully examining those "best" criteria against the child we actually have.

3) The college experience can have value beyond academics.

4) The college experience can delay, detract and destruct the forming of productive habits in early adulthood.

5) The value of a degree from a particular school is highly subjective and particuliar to certain fields, industries, geographic region, greek and alumni connections.

6) The college system in particular and educational system in general is terribly flawed in intent, application and execution.

7) The fact of #6 doesn't mean that deliberately opting out is a good option.

8) I wish vocational, trade, apprenticeship and internship opportunities were more valued, broadened, encouraged and sought. I *do* think a lot of time is wasted having kids in classes they can't stand learning things they'll never need.

I paid for my own education, um, I mean degrees. I will not have money to send my kids to college. Perhaps in large part due to my own experience, I do not feel the least guilt over that. Finding reasonable ways to aquire beyond high school education will be part of our homeschool curriculum.

I am preparing my kids to "handle" a college experience.

abbeyej

03-23-2008, 04:20 PM

I'm sure all education we receive is beneficial in some way, but surely you do not believe college is the only way to be educated.

I think if you go back and read my post, you'll see that I very clearly said (and have said in several posts in this thread) that it is not "the only way". Not by a long shot. But I *absolutely* believe that *I* am a better teacher for my children than I would have been without my college experience and courses. I would not have learned as much or challenged myself to the same extent on my own. A character flaw? Sure. :) But also true (and I think not just of myself). And I learned things I really couldn't have learned so well on my own.

And yes, character qualities are vitally important in home schooling -- but education helps too.

Karen in CO

03-23-2008, 04:53 PM

And yes, character qualities are vitally important in home schooling -- but education helps too.

:iagree:
btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

lovemyboys

03-23-2008, 05:01 PM

This quote urged me to ask a question:
When did Algebra become a higher level math?? Isn't it basically solving for an unknown?? I realize many people have trouble with it and I also realize that there are several levels of difficulty, however--IME it comes down to the teaching method not fitting the student. I use Algebra when I'm out shopping- carpenters use Algebra & geo. thus Trig to build, given the current economic situation it would appear categorizing this in this way might be the problem!?!. Okay I feel better-

It really bugs me when I hear this mom wax eloquent about homeschooling when she's got 4 dc over the age of 10 and she's just decided not to bother with some of these very basic tools that her dc Will Need in one way or another. How many 12 yo's really do know what they'll be at age 30 and therefore what subjects they need to study in middle school? Seems to me that's our job to prepare for them for that very unknown future!
jmho;)

Mrs Mungo

03-23-2008, 05:01 PM

:iagree:
btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't value education. If you homeschool your children throughout high school they will not receive a high school degree from a government-approved school. This doesn't mean they aren't educated. I don't see *anyone* saying that college should be discouraged or pooh-poohed. I see people saying a) there are other way to attain success (however you define it) and b) not all educated people have degrees and vice versa. Yes, I agree that a college degree is the status quo but for that very reason-does it need defending?

GothicGyrl

03-23-2008, 05:11 PM

:iagree:
btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?
No I believe the discussion evolved into "why wouldn't a homeschooler be prepping their kids for college" as if to say "all homeschoolers should be" or as I've said I've heard before "there is no reason for a homeschooler to have less than a 4.0 GPA"

All of which are faulty arguments. Not all homeschoolers have 4.0 GPA's (nor should they) and not all homeschoolers should be following some unwritten "must prep for college" law. No one is asking anyone to defend why you value education because that isn't the discussion; but it is obvious that some feel others are less valued for not having a college education--so that part of it has come up in the discussion as "defense".

I feel as though I am being told I have to "keep up appearances" as a homeschooler, that we are homeschooling because we feel we give a better education to our children than the PS does, so why wouldn't anyone want "better". And what I and some others are trying to say is that College does not always equal better nor should it. That there are other admirable and sometimes better paying jobs out there than ones that were preceeded by some type of college education.

And I stand by what I said: telling your child that college is the only option is wrong. I don't care if you start from birth talking college to your kid, some kids just cannot do college and to force them to do so because you feel anything else other than college is "not an option", is doing more of a disservice to your children than you think.

I have one kid who is just not college material--I know this. I see this. Have I come flat out and said "you aren't college material"? No. But I recognize that this is the case with her and I will NOT force her in to college just because some feel "it's the only way". Her father and I have had mean discussions about this and I have yet to back down. I refuse to force her to do something I know full well she is not "minded" to do--at least right now. When the time comes for her to be "minded" to do it, she will be able to handle it, but right now is not that time and I'm not going to stress her out trying to focus on this perceived "education" she could be getting when I am doing my best just to make sure *I* educate her enough to graduate.

Now my youngest is a different story and exactly why she will be attending public high school. But my oldest--no. And I take umbrage to anyone who lays claim to the "no college education = you are uneducated" banter.

lovemyboys

03-23-2008, 05:17 PM

:iagree:
btw - has this discussion devolved into a discussion of the worth of education? Did I login into the wrong board this morning? Do we really have to defend why we value education?

It seems like the classical education choice would be by definition more rigorous. So this board really wouldn't have this as an issue, right?!!

Regardless of the style of homeschooling a family chooses though, all the best guides strongly recommend setting goals, working toward them, and reevaluating as the years go by. But I'm still amazed when I run into families who are making the huge commitment to homeschool and then not really doing much for the older kids who will soon be out on their own.:001_huh:

BTW, Karen, I liked your earlier post in reply to Pam.

PrairieAir

03-23-2008, 05:31 PM

I don't believe college is the best choice for everyone. I've seen kids go to college with no real desire to be there and no real goal that college will help them to accomplish. They go simply because they are supposed to. That's a waste of time and money, IMO. I would never tell anyone that college "doesn't matter", though. I just think it's important for a person to define their goals and reasons for wanting or not wanting to go to college before making that choice. I also think schooling usually should be done with an eye toward preparing kids for college so that if they do decide to go they will be ready. Of course I think school, and homeschool in particular, should also prepare a child for other aspects of life or life paths.

Kelli in TN

03-23-2008, 06:04 PM

Don't let yourself boohoo over choices you've made. .......
#2- plenty of women go to college for the first time at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, & sometimes just for something to do (their 'mothering' the family job is over), I didn't check your age but I'm guessing there will be plenty of time for college once the youngest is out the door.

Well, I am not exactly boohooing, that is just not my nature.

I am almost 43. What limited money there is for educational opportunities is used for our children, as it should be. What time there is in each day is also used for the care and education of our children. My youngest is 8 but will likely be under my care for longer than most kids (he is pretty seriously learning challenged and will take longer to be at a place of independence).

My life is as it is and I am not looking to change the here and now or the future. I love motherhood, I look with excitement towards grandmothering.

But I deeply regret wasted youth and that is why it is important to me that my kids are warned strongly against squandering those years.

Kelli in TN

03-23-2008, 06:16 PM

Until I marred a man from a background different than my own, I would never have considered that NOT attending university could be a good choice. Doran

Doran,
Explain yourself, Woman!! What did you do to this poor man?

:lol:

Doran

03-23-2008, 06:22 PM

Doran,
Explain yourself, Woman!! What did you do to this poor man?

:lol:

I'm sure he could give you a load of examples! I've probably damaged him in ways I would never imagine, not the least of which is mentally! I did kind of snatch him from the bachelor pool. Poor guy thought he'd never marry, not for lack of interested females, but for lack of interest in Commitment on his part. He never knew what hit him!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky007.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Doran

P.S. You know, I actually had to read that quote THREE times to figure out what I'd done wrong. They just don't make editors like they used to. :D

Jill, OK

03-23-2008, 07:19 PM

HomeOnTheRanch

03-23-2008, 07:37 PM

We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home.

That's what I am, but my 4-year college degree had a lot to with that. Not a particular course, but the whole experience. If I hadn't left home and went to college 2,500 miles away, I probably would never had met DH. Sure, there were plenty guys back home I could have been hitched to, but I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

I think my college experience can help me better prepare my sons & daughter for college if that's the route they wish to go. I did have a full scholarship (and I'm encouraging my kids to do the same :lol:) so I was fortunate enough to not experience the financial strain.

My mom didn't go to college, but she wishes she had a degree. She started working outside the home after we were all in school, and she's been passed by for many promotions just for a lack of a degree.

Just because you and your husband feel that your daughters shouldn't work outside of the home doesn't necessarily mean that is the way it will work out for them.

pixelroper

03-23-2008, 07:50 PM

Kelli in TN, I didn't mean that as it sounded, just that I wouldn't let it bother you, which I thought was what you were saying.

As far as my own future, except for goals-- I'm not of the mind to be so final about anything. Just trying to throw out a perspective. Peace be with you:)

I do not own a 'crystal ball' and if I did -I wouldn't want to use it and spoil all the fun!!:D

Marriage? Well my father was mad I didn't marry right away, but as he couldn't pull a suitable mate out of thin air--oh well. dd can do as she likes, I would like her to be happy and if that meant she never married, so be it:)

didn't read thoroughly enough to find out where the marriage thing came from?>? no quotes,

KristineIN

03-23-2008, 08:28 PM

...if this includes the possibility that they don't marry?

I have a close friend that still is not married, at 37. Not because she doesn't want to be...it's just not played out that way. She has a great career, that she might set aside when/if the time comes to raise a family, but...it might not ever happen. If that's the case, she still has made a difference in the world, and has enjoyed life. (Her career does involve a college degree, btw).

Or do you not believe in women working outside the home, even if they aren't married? (Just curious).

I think all young women should have the goal of something besides just getting married. I know several homeschool graduates that still live at home and are in their early 20-24 and aren't really doing anything to further their education or even working, it's almost as if they are just waiting to get married. I don't like that, I will encourage our daughter by getting her involved in a community college when I feel she is ready to take classes and try and do some personality tests to see what she should be doing if she is unsure. I would love her to find something that she can do while staying home if she does get married and start a family.

As far as a college degree, I have one, never have used it, but it's nice to know that I have it in case anything happens to dh or I go back to work when the kids are grown. Dh went to college some, wasted a ton of money, never got a degree and is happy being self employed, we don't make a ton of money, but are happy and raising a Godly family and we feel that's what's important.

Kristine

Dayle in Guatemala

03-23-2008, 08:36 PM

we kind of feel that way a little. I am definitely preparing my dc for college, because if they decide they want to go, they should be prepared. I would hate it if the reason they didn't go was neglect on my part.

College is important. I would love for all 3 of my dc to go and experience it. But, I also know that college isn't for everyone. There's technical school and apprenticeships too as options for them. Our plan is to have them do 2 years of online college courses during their Jr. and Sr. years of high school and then whatever they want to do after that is up to them. But, at least they have 2 years.

Right now, today, none of my dc really want to go to college. But, that could change so quickly. We just spent so much time watching friends of ours waste time and money going to college because it was expected of them. They didn't have goals or direction. They wasted their opportunity. I would rather my dc do it when they know what they want and are focused.

Peela

03-23-2008, 09:43 PM

Here in Australia, tradespeople- plumbers, electricians etc- earn more than most university graduates. I live (rent) in a wealthy, riverside suburb, and the few neighbours I know do not have degrees...the one over the back, with a riverfront property, is a builder. Builders and anyone contracted to the building industry here in my city, have more work than they can handle and long waiting lists. Calling a plumber out can be a joke..they can virtually charge what they like, they have so much work. There is a mining boom happening in my state. Its hard for local businesses to get enough checkout chicks, shop assistants, because all the young people have gone up north to make thousands a week, working really hard, in the mining industry. They can buy a house in a couple of years. Another neighbour built his own IT company, and another just has both parents working- one as a waitress is a flash hotel, the other a surf lifesaver! These wealthy suburbs are not full of university graduates, in my experience.

My dad earned an average income as an astronomer with a job as a university lecturer, getting paid to do research as well. My mum, however, much to my dad's unhappiness, earned more money than him, running a business from home which employed other housewives in the area, working from their homes. We were well off not because of my dad's income, but because of my mum's.

I have read several articles in the newspaper saying getting a degree is now just about necessary for anything...however, it doesn't guarantee any sort of a decent job. My marine biologist cousin works as an orderly in a hospital.

A 17yo homeschooler I know has to get a highschool diploma to do his auto electrician's apprenticeship, which up till a couple of years ago was never necessary..and it leaves non academic kids in a difficult position. Because apprenticeships are so sought after, its hard to get one....if you do, you are lucky, because the work may be mundane to many, but gee you can make a good buck.

It's all silly. I still think entrepreneurial skills are the most valuable...the ability to see an opportunity and grab it, to think outside the box...and Bill Gates has that kind of mind, as do many other mega wealthy people. They see opportunities others simply don't conceive. That's why they can appear to poo poo university degrees. People identify so much with their career, and it can be a limiting way to think...I am this or that, therefore this or that is what I do, and how I will earn money. Train track thinking. Great if it's your passion, and you are not too fussed about the income, but not so good if you were led to believe it was going to mean a fulfilling and successful life.

Many people I know, including my mother, went to university as mature age students simply because they wanted an education....not a career.My mother never used her degree, which she got when she was my age, 40. Mature aged entry is a big thing around here.

Of course, much of what I am saying might be location specific. I suspect college in the U.S. isn't quite what university is here...more like a step between highschool and university. It may be even more necessary there than here.

I think my point is, the degree doesn't guarantee anything...thinking for yourself and following your passion, not getting stuck in train track thinking, are more guarantees of having a fulfilling life than a college degree alone. Then again if you equate being successful in the eyes of society as personal success, best you go get a degree because it will give you more status.

Mamagistra

03-23-2008, 10:11 PM

Peela! It's so good to see you back! :001_smile:

*anj*

03-24-2008, 12:38 AM

If the purpose of going to college is "to get a better job" - as most Americans believe - then most students would do better to get focused, short-term vocational training at whatever level is appropriate to their goals than to go up to $100,000 in debt in the space of four years.

I'm doing the thing I hate right now: posting when I've only read about a tenth of the posts. Still, I wanted to piggyback on this post. I agree wholeheartedly. The purpose of education is not merely "to get a better job." I definitely don't think that college is for everyone, nor do I think that it is necessarily a prerequisite for "success." On the other hand I know from experience that I learned a lot more than "job skills."

Audrey

03-24-2008, 12:50 AM

I don't understand the question. you say that parents don't care whether their children attend college, and then ask why they tell their dc that college doesn't matter. those are not the same things. and college just does NOT equal success, there are many people who've been VERY successful in life without attending college (lots of folks who never attended college make way more money than people who've completed 4 years and earned a degree). I don't care if my dc go to college or not. If that's what they want, great, good for them. If they want to do something else with their life, then great, good for them. I personally think that college can be a total waste of time and money.

I'd love to give you some pos.rep for that, but it says I have to spread some around first.

Anyway, you said it perfectly! My goals for educating my son at home are NOT to prepare him for college. I've BTDT and college is not "all that and a bag o' chips." It's full of students who are only there because their parents made them go. They aren't there to learn, that's for sure!

My goal is instill a love for learning in my son and to eventually teach him how to teach himself. Continuous learning is the key essential skill, IMO.

That said, he does say he's saving his money for college. That's a great goal, and I totally support him on that. Will he go to university? Will he go to (trade) college? Who knows! All I really care about, is that he feel capable enough to pursue that which he desires in his further education. I wouldn't say to him "college isn't important," but I wouldn't tell him it is, either.

*anj*

03-24-2008, 01:31 AM

This probably won't get read but I want to throw in my .2 as well. We don't intend for our girls to go to college unless they desire to take a few online courses. We are raising our girls to be intelligent, productive, keepers of the home. My goal is to give my girls as many life skills as possible so if they ever need to earn money, they can do it from home. We don't believe that women should work outside the home unless there is absolutely no other choice.

I also encourage my daughters (and sons) to learn basic life skills so that they are equipped to take care of themselves and their homes. What confuses me about your perspective is that it doesn't seem to allow for any lifestyle choices outside of marriage and family.

What if your daughters don't get married and need to support themselves? What if they do get married and find themselves either widowed or divorced with children to support?

I have several female friends who are in their mid to late 30's and they have never been married. They are attractive, capable, intelligent, spiritual, but they also have careers. If they didn't have those careers, how would they live? Shouldn't their ability to live well be independent of their marital status?

I want my girls to learn how to care for their homes, but I also want them to develop a desire for knowledge and an ability to provide for themselves. I say this despite the fact that I'd be tickled pink if my girls chose a path similar to mine.

I want my boys to know the same things because there is little worse than a man who thinks that his paycheck is his primary contribution to family life. Knowing how to cook and clean will make them better husbands/fathers.

There are no guarantees in life. I don't know what the future holds for my children. That's why I believe that it's my job as a mother (and especially as a homeschooling mother) to equip them for every good work.

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Michelle, but I've wanted to ask someone this question for awhile now. How does your plan account for the very real possibility that your children's lives will play out differently than you expect? :)

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-24-2008, 06:16 AM

Of course, much of what I am saying might be location specific. I suspect college in the U.S. isn't quite what university is here...more like a step between highschool and university. It may be even more necessary there than here.

Peela, in the US the terms college and university are most often used interchangeably.

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-24-2008, 06:27 AM

Anyway, you said it perfectly! My goals for educating my son at home are NOT to prepare him for college. I've BTDT and college is not "all that and a bag o' chips." It's full of students who are only there because their parents made them go. They aren't there to learn, that's for sure!

My ONLY quibble with what you say here is that I don't really care why the people who sit next to me in school are there. And in some of the schools, there are a majority of folks who are there for the education. In some, there are expectations that the professors will do more than teach with a scantron multiple-guess test in mind.

I'm not in a school like that right now, and it angers me that so many are getting shortchanged, IMO. (Although I was heartened that in my program, fully 1/2 of one of the tracks of RN students failed Pharmacology -- and their grades stood as earned without anybody feeling sorry for them and passing them on through. Now they are re-taking the class and taking all of it a bit more seriously.) But there ARE those serious schools out there. My son attends one with a strong culture of learning -- they even have to pass comprehensive exams in their major as undergraduates or they don't get their diplomas. I hope my daughter will attend a similar institution.

Anyway, not attending church because of the hypocrites isn't a good reason not to attend church. Not attending college because your classmate isn't there to learn doesn't sound quite right, either. At least at college, unlike the majority of primary and secondary schools in the country, there is a standard to meet that's not subject to the mediocrity of the individual students in a particular class. In theory, anyhow.

*anj*

03-24-2008, 07:52 AM

We have a good friend who is a university professor. He has been frequently frustrated by the lack of preparedness and sense of entitlement of many of his students. He has had to teach students how to write basic essays, how to organize thoughts, how to take notes. Lest you think that he's an English professor and that maybe he should be teaching writing, you're wrong. He teaches film/history of film/production.

The sense of entitlement issue is another problem altogether. He has found this to be more rampant at smaller, private, expensive colleges. He's complained about students who have poor study skills, offer lame excuses for unfinished work, took his class as a blow-off and are insulted that he expects them to work hard. They write poor papers or fail tests and expect do-overs. They have their parents call or email him. His disgust with this situation has almost driven him out of teaching (which he was absolutely born to do.) Before leaving for Europe he taught at a university that requires its students to take semesters off to work every year. He found a different caliber of student there. Perhaps because they had to enter the work world enough to learn the importance/value of their education, not sure.

Okay, I'm done.

Karenciavo

03-24-2008, 08:32 AM

We have a good friend who is a university professor. He has been frequently frustrated by the lack of preparedness... of many of his students. He has had to teach students how to write basic essays, how to organize thoughts, how to take notes.

SWB has said the same. I hope I'm doing an adequate job. :001_unsure:

nestof3

03-24-2008, 09:27 AM

ang,

I agree with preparing daughters as well. I also agree with bringing them up to be homeschooling mothers who are a helpmeet to their husband. While I think the odds of most daughters NOT getting married if they desire to are slim, there is always a possibility of being a widow, but beyond even that is the fact that if a daughter were to homeschool her children, she may very well end up with boys. Though we do not bring our children up telling them they must go to college, and we don't hold college up to be something that is worshipped (it seems many these days deem it to be far more than it really is), we do prepare our sons to be ready for college.

I know many families with daughters who already show they will be excellent keepers of the home and wonderful moms. They should still be educated well in order to educate their children well.

I also think it is wonderful for women to have skills that would make them fine helpmeets for their husband. This video addresses this:
http://www.visionforum.com/search/productdetail.aspx?search=return&productid=67850

As more and more Christian men are seeking home businesses and self-employment, I think it is wise to find ways to train daughters to support this -- even if in small ways. For example, my husband is self-employed and I assist him by doing the accounting and payroll for the business.

Karin

03-24-2008, 01:15 PM

Peela, in the US the terms college and university are most often used interchangeably.

Yes. In this particular part of the States they say 4 year college and 2 year college, often (2 year college being community college). But they don't call any 4 year collge a university, but something like Rutgers is a university with a number of different colleges. This was confusing to me at first because in Canada if it's 2 years, it's college and if it's 4 years it's university. I'm not sure what it is in Australia, but perhaps similar to Canada.

Karin

03-24-2008, 01:18 PM

Audrey

03-24-2008, 01:36 PM

My ONLY quibble with what you say here is that I don't really care why the people who sit next to me in school are there. {snip}

Anyway, not attending church because of the hypocrites isn't a good reason not to attend church. Not attending college because your classmate isn't there to learn doesn't sound quite right, either. At least at college, unlike the majority of primary and secondary schools in the country, there is a standard to meet that's not subject to the mediocrity of the individual students in a particular class. In theory, anyhow.

I understand you --- but I wasn't trying to denegrate college because of those types of students. Part of my comment stems from having been a prof and having those kinds of students in my class. At that university, it did feel like those students were the majority. It is very frustrating as a prof and it still makes me irked. :001_huh: However, that's probably not entirely relevant to the discussion -- so, I'll admit my bias there and withdraw the comment. It wasn't intended to be a broad-brush statement. Sorry it came across that way.

Tami

03-24-2008, 02:19 PM

I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period.

Awww, Jenn. Are you playing the Glad Game? :D I mean, do you read the news and honestly believe that?

Parents who neglect and abuse their children are failures at parenting. Period. The vast majority of them are not crazy, and neither have they "lost it." Since they are adults, they have themselves to blame for not seeking help when they need it.

Children are not always born to loving, safe, protective homes. The blaming society crap really irks me. There never has been, nor ever will be a Utiopia. We are all born into a world that stinks. It's no excuse to abuse or neglect kids and blame Society.

Ahhh! I feel better. :ack2:

j.griff

03-24-2008, 02:39 PM

I honestly do have very radical views on things, and most people will not agree with me. That's okay. And no, I am not playing the glad game, IMO, I am a very literal realist. I am Christian, so my world view is different than some too, in that respect. If we are going to play the blame game, and label people as failures, then let's go all the way back to the beginning. Adam and Eve made the first bad choice, it's "their fault" there's sin in the world. They failed as Creatures of God. :D I DO think that everyone is doing the best that they can do at any given time. They may be "capable" of "doing better", BUT- due to stress, emotional issues, clouded judgement, drug use, addictions, disease, differing worldview, psychosis, and just plain ingorance, etc. they can only do the best that they can- which may not be what others see as the best option, but the person in the situation is doing the best they are totally capable of *at that time*. I do not believe in optimism- it's just not real. I believe that society as a whole is an utter failure- if it weren't there weren't be starving people, genocide, war, etc. The global society has failed everyone. We are capable of GREAT things, but those great things aren't happening. Why? Because everyone is doing the "best" they can do- due to greed, neglect, depression, selfishness, etc. Also due to limits placed on us by Society.

Sebastian (a lady)

03-24-2008, 02:48 PM

There is a fine line between encouraging your children in whatever endevour they take on and discouraging them from going to college. There is a balance between realizing that many college programs are stuffed with fluff that is little more than navel gazing and does little to educate the student and deciding that all college programs are worthless.

I have encountered this attitude from some families and found that it is sometimes based in religious belief (those universities are just a den of iniquity), or classism (your dad didn't need college to provide for our family), or gender roles (why spend money on a degree that our girls won't need?).

I have seen some families that have chosen a less challenging path from an early stage and by the time that they are discussing post-high school options, they've already eliminated some choices as beyond the students academically. I'm an admissions liason for my alma mater and often encounter students (both homeschooled and ps) who decide they'd like to attend my school at the end of their high school years but have an insufficient foundation for the demands of the school. My favorite people to talk to are middle schoolers and their parents. They are still in a position to form their academic experience to set themselves up to have options.

I personally try to keep an open mind. I don't think that all college programs are worthwhile, that all students are emotionally and maturity-wise ready for college at age 18, or that only post college jobs have value. I don't think my kids will have failed if they choose not to go to college. But I don't want to decide when my kid is 8 or 10 that they won't become a scientist or an engineer or a lawyer.

Michelle in MO

03-24-2008, 02:52 PM

we have a few families who don't value college. I don't think college is for every child; children can grow up to be a success in life without having a degree. Conversely, someone can have a degree and be a complete failure.

However, there are a few in our area who don't seem to value college for their children because they never went to college, and for some reason, that attitude bothers me. My parents never went to college, but they wanted more for my brother and I and so they wanted us to set our goals higher than the ones they were able to attain. I think for many children college should be encouraged; for others, their goals might be trade school or some other type of secondary education.

j.griff

03-24-2008, 02:55 PM

And here's a question for you: "Do the times make the man, or does a man make the times?"

Michelle My Bell

03-24-2008, 03:05 PM

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Michelle, but I've wanted to ask someone this question for awhile now. How does your plan account for the very real possibility that your children's lives will play out differently than you expect?

Actually I think the possibility that my children won't get married is pretty slim. Most people do get married. That aside, I don't claim to know what their futures hold, nor do I intend to plan their lives for them in any way. We are simply raising them with our values as I am sure all of you are.

We place great value on motherhood and keeper of the home. We also place great value on solid learning and the Bible. My desire is not to lead my children down a road of stuggles since we won't send them to college, but a rich life of knowledge and continued learning.

Part of our homeschool program involves adding in life skills that are far more important than some degree they will likely never use. Some of thes skills include:

Sewing, basketry, pottery, art, cooking, etc...
ALSO
Comparison Shopping, Managing Accounts, Investing, Buying a home, etc...
ALSO
Fixing appliances, carpentry, gardening etc...

These are some of the skills we will teach our daughters (and our son when he gets there..) Many of these skills could easily be transmitted into future income for our daughters in the unlikely event that they will need an income.

But let me say something that is probably not what most would say. Our daughters will always have a home with us right up until the day of their marriage. It is not our intention to thrust our daughters out at 18 and say goodluck. They will have the protection of home for as long as they desire or need it. We will always be there for them.

Something I also didn't see mentioned here is the dangers of college for daughters. I lived on campus for 4 years with my husband at a christian college and I know that there were a lot of problems with girls and guys even there. I can't imagine what it would be like at a secular college. A long time ago, parents wouldn't even think about sending their daughters out into the world until their daughters were married. Our society today can't wait. JMHO, not intended to offend.

Michelle

Tami

03-24-2008, 03:06 PM

Wow, that is kinda depressing, Jenn. :willy_nilly:

I believe that people have possibilities for both good and evil and that we are accountable for our actions. I believe that children need to be protected at times from parents who have failed at their responsibilities. I believe that good will win out in the end, and that humanity's fall is not beyond the reach of God's grace.

Until then, it is society's business to punish evil and reward good. Each person is capable of making choices for the good of others, or choices that cause others to suffer. If we give everyone the Awful Society excuse, than prosecution for child neglect and abuse would be nonsensical. I believe children who cannot speak for themselves, or advocate for themselves need to be protected from neglectful, abuse parents who have failed at their duties.

I'm getting off track. I'm thankful that so many parents are wonderful (especially them there homeschoolers!), and am humbled at the opportunity to have met some of them.

j.griff

03-24-2008, 03:11 PM

j.griff

03-24-2008, 03:14 PM

*I* am not saying that the fact that Society is a complete failure (IMO) is an "excuse" for anyone. I am just stating that *I* detest labels, and *I* detest people labelling people as "failures" because they don't meet someone else's expectations. And *I* still believe that even if someone commits an atrocious act, they are still doing their personal best- for those circumstances at that time. <shrug>. I really don't like when people place limits on me either- such as suggesting I'm "playing the glad game", because my Radical thinking does not (and will not, by definition) ever line up with theirs.
Not developing certain coping skills/life skills does not mean someone has failed, it means society has failed. Yes people are responsible for their actions, but that also has to apply to Society as a whole. Their will never be a Utopia- because people hate themselves and each other too much, and will never get beyond accusing each other and labellling each other long enough to work toward a common goal.

Robin in Tx

03-24-2008, 03:21 PM

Michelle, I know many families who feel the same way and have raised their girls accordingly, and their girls have gone on to be the sort of wives and homemakers they were raised to be. These are great families and I admire them very much.

But then I look at someone like SWB, whose education has allowed her to work *FROM* the home, and to do work that is monetarily rewarding enough that her work actually DOES fulfill the definition of being a help mate to her husband. I don't know the personal details of their finances, but I would guess that her income is no small factor in allowing her husband to pastor the small church he was called to pastor. And, of course, because of the education she received, we are now all benefiting from her guidance and encouragement in the homeschooling arena. I am very thankful that her mother didn't have the same idea about girls and college :).

I'm not trying to put you on the defensive about your choice, because I believe that you know best and are led to do what you believe is the right thing. But for anyone else reading this thread, who might be trying to decide where they are going to hang their hat, I want them to consider that there is a whole lot more a woman can do these days to be a Proverbs 31 woman other than domestic crafts. Real partnership in a marriage, genuinely living as one flesh, requires a single set of parameters which the united flesh is operating within - not a set for her and a set for him. Honestly, when I consider women like SWB (and there are others here on this board), I think of *them* as being the ideal Proverbs 31 woman... and not the woman who has limited her contributions to domestic skills with no regard for the potential that God has gifted her with.

Just a different point of view to consider... hope I'm not offending in any way.

Robin

Tami

03-24-2008, 03:23 PM

Not wanting to let this get tiresome and completely off topic, feel free to IM me if you want to continue this discussion.

Oh, my glad game comment was meant to be light-hearted. I'm just being silly! Don't take me too seriously. :D

Pam "SFSOM" in TN

03-24-2008, 03:34 PM

I understand you --- but I wasn't trying to denegrate college because of those types of students. Part of my comment stems from having been a prof and having those kinds of students in my class. At that university, it did feel like those students were the majority. It is very frustrating as a prof and it still makes me irked. :001_huh: However, that's probably not entirely relevant to the discussion -- so, I'll admit my bias there and withdraw the comment. It wasn't intended to be a broad-brush statement. Sorry it came across that way.

I can't imagine being a professor in my particular school. It would make me stark raving looney, what with the whining and moaning and wondering why lack of study produces low grades (can you imagine such a thing?). I don't know how you did it.

Robin in Tx

03-24-2008, 03:46 PM

For someone who worked in the professional world for ten years before marrying, I can attest to the fact that the difference between a college degree and no college degree was the difference between being on a time card and being on salary (in every job I had). Salaried employees earned a lot more than non salaried, even if the work load was identical - they just gave the position a different name and pay scale. And once you reached the top of the non-salaried tier, you hit a ceiling and couldn't go any further up no matter how well you could do the job. College degree was required, and it often didin't matter what the degree was in... the larger and higher profile the firm, the truer this was.

You will not hear me saying the things that you hear from others, because I going to college is definitely our default mode. Once an adult, dd can certainly choose to do as she pleases, and doesn't have to answer to me anymore, but as far as it's up to me, I'll not be finished with what I perceive as my responsibilities until college is complete. Some people feel the same way about high school... they consider a high school graduation the "finish line", even though there are GED and vocational programs available... I see my view as no different from theirs... I've set a "finish line" that is beyond the bare minimum, and I've done so mainly because I know what it's like to be perfectly capable yet held back from opportunity because of one piece of paper. IT's why I sent myself back to college later in life, as an adult.

Robin

JuJuBee

03-24-2008, 04:06 PM

I am just stating that *I* detest labels, and *I* detest people labelling people as "failures" because they don't meet someone else's expectations. And *I* still believe that even if someone commits an atrocious act, they are still doing their personal best- for those circumstances at that time. <shrug>. I really don't like when people place limits on me either- such as suggesting I'm "playing the glad game", because my Radical thinking does not (and will not, by definition) ever line up with theirs.
Not developing certain coping skills/life skills does not mean someone has failed, it means society has failed.
In your attempt to remove responsibility from the actual perpetrator, you have only moved the burden to another set of human shoulders. What is 'society' if not individual people? Your rhetoric seems to remove the burden from the individual, but it only shifts it to other individuals.

If, on the other hand, you truly believe that pedophiles or racially-motivated murderers are really 'doing the best they can,' then there is no discussion to be had. I shudder when I think of the cases of child abuse I have heard/read about, and I studiously avoid them if at all possible, so I have probably only seen the tip of the iceberg. These people aren't doing the best they can, they are acting in deeply perverted and cruel, and frankly downright evil ways.

One other thing, about young women and education... I understand preparing a daughter to be a godly woman and a keeper of the home. But there is a harsh reality that women do find themselves, for any number of reasons from being widowed to a debilitating illness or accident to having an adultering husband, alone and desperately needing to be able to support themselves. So I do want my daughters equipped to support themselves and a family, if need be.

FlockOfSillies

03-24-2008, 04:32 PM

Just because college isn't a good fit for everyone or necessary for a wonderful life doesn't mean it has to be devalued.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're responding to my comment about college being devalued, let me clarify. I just meant that a college degree, in economic terms, is not worth as much as it used to be. It has become the minimum requirement for jobs that used to require only a high school diploma. Because hs diplomas are routinely handed out to students who do little more than breathe, employers can't depend on a high school diploma to mean much. So they use a college degree to help them weed out undesirable candidates. (If only we had a college-equivalency exam available... brilliant kids who would be wasting their time in college could prove their abilities and still receive the same pay scale as someone with a diploma.)

Does that help, or am I way off base in understanding you? :)

JuJuBee

03-24-2008, 04:40 PM

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're responding to my comment about college being devalued, let me clarify. I just meant that a college degree, in economic terms, is not worth as much as it used to be. It has become the minimum requirement for jobs that used to require only a high school diploma. Because hs diplomas are routinely handed out to students who do little more than breathe, employers can't depend on a high school diploma to mean much. So they use a college degree to help them weed out undesirable candidates. (If only we had a college-equivalency exam available... brilliant kids who would be wasting their time in college could prove their abilities and still receive the same pay scale as someone with a diploma.)

Does that help, or am I way off base in understanding you? :)

Oh, no I was responding to the original comment, saying that college 'doesn't matter,' i.e., devaluing it LOL In other words, just because something isn't perfect for everyone doesn't mean it valuable for some people.

And, by the way, I totally agree with you that it is devalued in an economic sense. :) It is yesterday's high school diploma, which is why we are planning on our children going and that is our family 'culture.'

Audrey

03-24-2008, 04:56 PM

I can't imagine being a professor in my particular school. It would make me stark raving looney, what with the whining and moaning and wondering why lack of study produces low grades (can you imagine such a thing?). I don't know how you did it.

Well, I'm not doing it anymore, and that says a lot. I was able to walk away with (most of) my sanity intact. ;) I have stories, though... oh my, do I ever!

To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all. The students would come and go... transient problems or joys. Even though I can sincerely say that the majority of the students couldn't have cared less, I did have the occasional student who loved learning, was mature and responsible and who gave sincere effort to my classes. Those students made it worthwhile.

But, then I met the farmer of my dreams and the academic era of my life is old history now. :001_smile:

j.griff

03-24-2008, 06:31 PM

In your attempt to remove responsibility from the actual perpetrator, you have only moved the burden to another set of human shoulders. What is 'society' if not individual people? Your rhetoric seems to remove the burden from the individual, but it only shifts it to other individuals.

If, on the other hand, you truly believe that pedophiles or racially-motivated murderers are really 'doing the best they can,' then there is no discussion to be had. I shudder when I think of the cases of child abuse I have heard/read about, and I studiously avoid them if at all possible, so I have probably only seen the tip of the iceberg. These people aren't doing the best they can, they are acting in deeply perverted and cruel, and frankly downright evil ways.

Wow, I have a radically different view, so people feel the need to call me on it and twist my words into meaning something different than what I am saying, and then tell me there is no discussion to be had. Interesting.
I never said that I don't believe that sex offenders or child abusers do not deserve to be "punished". I just said that they are doing the best they can. And that was going on a different tangent than my Original reply- in which I said:

I say, if you raise your kids and they survive all the years of childhood, then you have succeeded. I don't think ANY parent is a "failure", I think that EVERY parent does the best that THEY can do, period. Even if someone else thinks they could have done a "better" job, they did the best that they were capable of at that time.
Note that first sentence- insofar as judging whether a parent has failed their child depending on what "education" they have provided- NO parent is a "failure". If the child reaches adult hood, then by definition the parent has succeeded in parenting/raising the child.
Then someone argued on whether *I* really believe that "no parent is a failure". YES, *I* really DO believe that. I believe everyone is ****ed, and everyone makes different levels of mistakes. IMO- everyone is doing the best that THEY can do, at any given time- whether that means they are failures to other people is irrelevant.

FlockOfSillies

03-24-2008, 07:13 PM

I'm always paranoid that my posts could end up under the wrong part of the thread. :eek:

Robin in Tx

03-24-2008, 07:32 PM

abbeyej

03-24-2008, 07:42 PM

Don't know how your comment ended up under mine... Just for the record, I'm talking about planning for college. I really don't know what Jujubee is talking about, and that wasn't my post she quoted! LOL

Robin, I find that the "threading" in these posts is often just useless. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to it. :confused:

Karin

03-24-2008, 09:04 PM

To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all.

You're not the first person I've heard say this! A friend of mine quit teaching at university for this very reason, although even with a Ph. D., it wasn't his full time job (on purpose on his part).

abbeyej

03-24-2008, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Audrey
To be honest, the politics of academia are the worst part of it all.

You're not the first person I've heard say this! A friend of mine quit teaching at university for this very reason, although even with a Ph. D., it wasn't his full time job (on purpose on his part).

Perhaps you two would appreciate this (http://www.watercoolergames.org/archives/000909.shtml). ;)

JuJuBee

03-24-2008, 09:22 PM

IMO- everyone is doing the best that THEY can do, at any given time- whether that means they are failures to other people is irrelevant.

Jenn, maybe we have radically different understandings of 'doing the best they can do.' I cannot see that a pedophile or murderer is doing the best they can. I see that they see something they want and take it, by force, without regard to the effects upon others. I see that they are acting selfishly and with wanton disregard for their effect upon others. I do not see that any parent whose child merely survives childhood -- no matter the scars they carry, internally or externally -- can say that they were a success. This manner of thinking seems completely irrational to me. I don't understand it at all. Could you explain why you view it this way, where you're coming from? What do you mean by 'doing the best they can' and do you not think that saying it's 'society's fault' not an individual's fault is simply shifting the blame to another person? How did you arrive at these opinions?

mom42terrificgirls

03-24-2008, 10:33 PM

I totally agree with this post. My oldest dd has learning challenges. She is planning to either go to 2-yr art school for a certificate in photography or to an art institute for four years. The art institute will be extremely difficult for her academically, and she needs to decide if she will work extra hard for an actual "degree." if she's not willing to put that kind of effort into it, her dad and i don't want to get a student loan for her. Who knows? She might get a "certificate", find an apprenticeship and do very well. Or she might meet her future dh, get married, and be happy as a sahm, using her certificate for a hobby or teach homeschoolers photography in a co-op? Regardless, I believe God has great plans for her, whatever she chooses, as long as she does her very best.

Danestress

03-24-2008, 10:55 PM

Boy, that's the truth! Back when I went to college, between the cheaters, the partiers, and the jock-straps who slid by on their scholarships, I remember wondering who was actually learning anything.

Awwww, that's so sad. I went to a huge public university (though a very fine one), but for the most part I had excellent professors and and great classroom experiences. Yes, of course there were plenty of students who weren't really there to study and learn. But I also made wonderful friends with people who encouraged me to strive for excellence academically, and it changed my life. Maybe I just gravitated towards people like that, or maybe I'm good at only seeing what I want to see, lol. I will say I made every effort to avoid the mega-lecture style classes, and I guess that helped.

Robin in Tx

03-24-2008, 11:07 PM

Robin, I find that the "threading" in these posts is often just useless. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to it. :confused:

No kidding! Even more confusing to me, though, is how a conversation about the value of a college education turned into a conversation about perpetrators! I don't have the mental energy to go back through all the posts and figure it out, though. LOL

Robin

Karin

03-24-2008, 11:17 PM

No kidding! Even more confusing to me, though, is how a conversation about the value of a college education turned into a conversation about perpetrators! I don't have the mental energy to go back through all the posts and figure it out, though. LOL

Robin

Having followed this for a few days, I can answer that one, although I might not remember the posters' names. One person made the point that they thought all parents did the best they can (meaning education), another responded with "what about x situation" (not directly about education, but made a point), the first one said that was someone who had lost it, and it started going back and forth with several posters.

Or was that merely a rhetorical question;)? I found that tangent rather interesting, which is why I remember.

j.griff

03-25-2008, 12:00 AM

Jenn, maybe we have radically different understandings of 'doing the best they can do.' I cannot see that a pedophile or murderer is doing the best they can. I see that they see something they want and take it, by force, without regard to the effects upon others. I see that they are acting selfishly and with wanton disregard for their effect upon others. I do not see that any parent whose child merely survives childhood -- no matter the scars they carry, internally or externally -- can say that they were a success. This manner of thinking seems completely irrational to me. I don't understand it at all. Could you explain why you view it this way, where you're coming from? What do you mean by 'doing the best they can' and do you not think that saying it's 'society's fault' not an individual's fault is simply shifting the blame to another person? How did you arrive at these opinions?

How I arrived at my opinions- by observation, brewing thoughts, asking questions, and understanding different view points and world views.

What I mean by "doing the best they can"- Given the horrendous nature of the world: Each person does not reach adulthood fully equipped to handle stress. Each person does not reach adulthood with a true understanding of "right" and "wrong"- and the sense of "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil" do vary in different cultures/religions throughout history. So, "good" and "bad" are relative terms, generally speaking, though most of us here probably have a grasp of the concept. :D
People are broken- by genetics, by environmental causes, etc. Broken people beget broken people. People who are sick (think about aging people with various diseases who are over or under medicated for their condition/s, along with the original symptoms of the disease/s itself/themself they also experience unpleasant side effects) tend to be grumpy and lack self-control. People who haven't had enough sleep tend to be grumpy, not function well, and are out-of-control. Each person at any given minute is experiencing life within their own "bubble"- they've had a good day or a bad day, they've had a good life up to this point and everythings coming up roses, or their life has stunk to outer edges of the universe thus far. So, given that no human being is perfect and constantly capable of self control (have you ever snapped at your dc and regretted it? said something to a loved one you wish you hadn't? etc.?) each person is doing the best that they can manage, within their current condition (which may be the result of poor choices, but not everyone can handle temptation well, can they?). It may be due to brain chemistry, or an attachment disorder, or any number of problems. But, for whatever reason/s that moment (the moment when they act) is not necessarily a moment when they are in control. So, even though they may have committed murder- that doesn't mean that wasn't the best "they" could do at that moment. The brain undergoes so many changes when under stress. Some people snap when a baby is crying non stop, and they are exhausted due to lack of sleep, and they have NO ONE to call to help them, no one they trust to watch the baby, or no one available because "the system" is flawed. So they end up shaking the baby out of frustration, or maybe it's pent up rage from a string of events, or maybe they are so high on cocaine or whatever- that their rage is heightened to a point where they have no control. Maybe they just don't care, maybe they just want/need to crying to stop. That's the best they can do. I never said that people who abuse children are "right", I just said that's the best "they" can do.

Society is a collection of human beings, who have allowed certain human beings to come to power and rule over everyone else. Those in power are corrupt, they do not have the best interests of the majority at heart- they are money and power-hungry, they are stroking their egos. The people who are "in charge" are at fault. I can't even tell you how many times people who have the tiniest bit of power over me (or those that THINK they do) have abused that miniscule amount of power. I've seen it happen to so many people. Some of those "power people" claim to be there to help you, but it's a big fat lie. They are there to get paid. Maybe they started out trying to help people, but somewhere along the way that changed.
Society is what people make it. Society is what people accept, condone, and the actions of the majority.
I do not believe that blaming society is shifting the blame. I never said that those who break the law (ignorance is no excuse) should get a free ride. They should go to jail, but what is the rest of the world going to do about it after the fact? Look down their noses at the criminals and shake their snooty heads in disgust? When people get off their high horses, and stop being so judgemental of everyone who's "different", and start helping people instead of sitting around gossipping about celebrities and neighbors and who's banging who at work, etc., then Society will start to turn. It IS possible, for human beings to set aside their differences and embrace each other as a member of the human race. But it's not going to happen until individuals who DO know right and wrong, and who are capable of self-control start that change- when they are of sound mind.

To the general you: Smile at everyone you meet- even if you don't FEEL like it- it can really make a difference and it's free- it may not "make someone's day" every time, or even everyday but if it helps someone lonely feel loved just for one second then it's worth all the effort you've been putting into it for all those years; offer to help carry things for people who obviously could use the help; stop being a complaining problem and start being a solution; don't complain about the kids at the park cussing, talk to them- give them something to do- provide some structure for them; BE the change you want to see in the world EVERY day- whether you feel like it or not; don't judge people who are different than you- they are different and that's a GOOD thing; and many many many more common sense things- stop putting so much negative energy out into the universe. As Justin Timberlake says "what goes around comes all the way back around". Instead of complaining about all the little issues that come up, work at improving your personal best, and do your best to be a part of the solution. Actively seek out ways to be a positive force in this world.

:lol: This PSA was brought to you by: Dr. Pepper

gardenschooler

03-25-2008, 12:18 AM

Sewing, basketry, pottery, art, cooking, etc...
ALSO
Comparison Shopping, Managing Accounts, Investing, Buying a home, etc...
ALSO
Fixing appliances, carpentry, gardening etc...
Michelle

I have a friend who has a similar stance as you. While it's not the path we're going with our daughters, I have to say I was impressed by her actual plan. Her daughter's schooling, besides the regular subjects done throroughly and well, has included several (6+, more of some) years of ballet, Spanish, and piano. Her reasoning is that when her dd is grown, if she stays home with her kids, she can make a decent amount of money tutoring and teaching in these subjects. She's also helped her dd start a home-based soap and lotion business, and she's been doing that for several years, as well.

While she's not planning on her dd to go to college, I don't think she'd actually try to discourage her from it, if that's what she wants. There would be concerns about the atmosphere in this family, and if the dd went to college, she'd most likely do it while living at home. And if she did want to go, she's definitely prepared. She hasn't skimped on anything (math, etc. continuing all the way through). Her motivation for this was that her dd be *able* to teach her own kids even in high school, and also to get a solid education from being homeschooled. Either way, she is prepared for college if she ever chooses to go.

Colleen

03-25-2008, 03:39 AM

Colleen

03-25-2008, 04:21 AM

I've only perused this thread ~ reading it would take all night! ~ and my own belated reply will of course be buried. I'm still curious, though, as to what I perceive as a leap of logic you've made here. You initially mentioned parents who "don't care if their children attend college...They're not against college for their children, but they're not aiming for it either." You wondered why those folks would tell their children that college "doesn't matter".

When it was pointed out to you that A does not necessarily equal B, you clarified and asked, "Why would any parent tell their child that to get a college degree means nothing? (That it amounts to a waste of time.)" And yet the one still doesn't mean the other. Those of us to whom college is not the penultimate end to twelve years of schooling, those who consider an array of options equally worthy, are not saying a college degree is meaningless. We're saying it's meaningful ~ for those to whom it will be meaningful. But it isn't THE choice, or the BEST choice, for everyone.

I want my boys to pursue their passions; to recognize the options available to them; to weigh the pros and cons of those options; to take responsibility for their choices. Whether it be a four-year degree followed by more schooling; or traveling hither and yon; or learning a trade and serving an apprenticeship...The choices are varied and it's my job to make those choices known to them. One might say, then, that I "don't care" whether or not they go to college, but that's certainly not the message I convey to them. I convey the thought that it's one very good option and that a degree may be of real value to them...or not.;)

bkpan

03-25-2008, 07:28 AM

What I mean by "doing the best they can"- Given the horrendous nature of the world: Each person does not reach adulthood fully equipped to handle stress. Each person does not reach adulthood with a true understanding of "right" and "wrong"- and the sense of "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil" do vary in different cultures/religions throughout history. So, "good" and "bad" are relative terms, generally speaking, though most of us here probably have a grasp of the concept. :D
People are broken- by genetics, by environmental causes, etc. Broken people beget broken people. People who are sick (think about aging people with various diseases who are over or under medicated for their condition/s, along with the original symptoms of the disease/s itself/themself they also experience unpleasant side effects) tend to be grumpy and lack self-control. People who haven't had enough sleep tend to be grumpy, not function well, and are out-of-control. Each person at any given minute is experiencing life within their own "bubble"- they've had a good day or a bad day, they've had a good life up to this point and everythings coming up roses, or their life has stunk to outer edges of the universe thus far. So, given that no human being is perfect and constantly capable of self control (have you ever snapped at your dc and regretted it? said something to a loved one you wish you hadn't? etc.?) each person is doing the best that they can manage, within their current condition (which may be the result of poor choices, but not everyone can handle temptation well, can they?). It may be due to brain chemistry, or an attachment disorder, or any number of problems. But, for whatever reason/s that moment (the moment when they act) is not necessarily a moment when they are in control. So, even though they may have committed murder- that doesn't mean that wasn't the best "they" could do at that moment. The brain undergoes so many changes when under stress. Some people snap when a baby is crying non stop, and they are exhausted due to lack of sleep, and they have NO ONE to call to help them, no one they trust to watch the baby, or no one available because "the system" is flawed. So they end up shaking the baby out of frustration, or maybe it's pent up rage from a string of events, or maybe they are so high on cocaine or whatever- that their rage is heightened to a point where they have no control. Maybe they just don't care, maybe they just want/need to crying to stop. That's the best they can do. I never said that people who abuse children are "right", I just said that's the best "they" can do.

Society is a collection of human beings, who have allowed certain human beings to come to power and rule over everyone else. Those in power are corrupt, they do not have the best interests of the majority at heart- they are money and power-hungry, they are stroking their egos. The people who are "in charge" are at fault. I can't even tell you how many times people who have the tiniest bit of power over me (or those that THINK they do) have abused that miniscule amount of power. I've seen it happen to so many people. Some of those "power people" claim to be there to help you, but it's a big fat lie. They are there to get paid. Maybe they started out trying to help people, but somewhere along the way that changed.
Society is what people make it. Society is what people accept, condone, and the actions of the majority.
I do not believe that blaming society is shifting the blame. I never said that those who break the law (ignorance is no excuse) should get a free ride. They should go to jail, but what is the rest of the world going to do about it after the fact? Look down their noses at the criminals and shake their snooty heads in disgust? When people get off their high horses, and stop being so judgemental of everyone who's "different", and start helping people instead of sitting around gossipping about celebrities and neighbors and who's banging who at work, etc., then Society will start to turn. It IS possible, for human beings to set aside their differences and embrace each other as a member of the human race. But it's not going to happen until individuals who DO know right and wrong, and who are capable of self-control start that change- when they are of sound mind.

If everyone is doing the best that they can do, then why do you think that consequences for breaking society's laws are justified? How do we accept punishing someone who "couldn't" help their actions? It seems cruel to put someone in prison for killing/abusing/murdering another person when they just couldn't help themselves. And what about those corrupt people in control? Aren't they doing the "best that they can do"?

I'm sorry, but I find this thinking really dangerous. People DO make choices. Sometimes we do choose below our capabilities. And it is a decision. Not simply a response to circumstances/biology/history. That is why we are given a free will.

When I am tired and snap at the children, get lazy and resist my responsibilities, act in a selfish manner, I am choosing these responses. I could choose other responses. There are days that I am doing the "best" that I can do (maybe), but there are many more that I am not. In your world, there would be no such thing as personal responsibility? How does such a society function?

No, the fact is, is that I know in my spirit when I have made a lesser choice. And I do it too often! The problem comes in folks who continue to make bad choices despite "knowing" that they could choose better. The more we make those more neg. choices, the "quieter" that inner voice reminding us to do better becomes.

Now, we can be compassionate, try to understand others' POV and circumstances, but isn't that a choice to be our best selves? To not judge, but to see the whole person? We each should be accountable to what we are capable of. And I would argue that we are each capable of choosing beyond our circumstances. Of course, that is why our judicial system is a jury by our peers, to hopefully sort through all of the circumstances surrounding our decisions. But they are decisions. Ones we make every day. And some are most certainly not the "best" that we can do.

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

bkpan

03-25-2008, 07:34 AM

:confused:What I mean by "doing the best they can"- Given the horrendous nature of the world: Each person does not reach adulthood fully equipped to handle stress. Each person does not reach adulthood with a true understanding of "right" and "wrong"- and the sense of "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil" do vary in different cultures/religions throughout history. So, "good" and "bad" are relative terms, generally speaking, though most of us here probably have a grasp of the concept. :D
People are broken- by genetics, by environmental causes, etc. Broken people beget broken people. People who are sick (think about aging people with various diseases who are over or under medicated for their condition/s, along with the original symptoms of the disease/s itself/themself they also experience unpleasant side effects) tend to be grumpy and lack self-control. People who haven't had enough sleep tend to be grumpy, not function well, and are out-of-control. Each person at any given minute is experiencing life within their own "bubble"- they've had a good day or a bad day, they've had a good life up to this point and everythings coming up roses, or their life has stunk to outer edges of the universe thus far. So, given that no human being is perfect and constantly capable of self control (have you ever snapped at your dc and regretted it? said something to a loved one you wish you hadn't? etc.?) each person is doing the best that they can manage, within their current condition (which may be the result of poor choices, but not everyone can handle temptation well, can they?). It may be due to brain chemistry, or an attachment disorder, or any number of problems. But, for whatever reason/s that moment (the moment when they act) is not necessarily a moment when they are in control. So, even though they may have committed murder- that doesn't mean that wasn't the best "they" could do at that moment. The brain undergoes so many changes when under stress. Some people snap when a baby is crying non stop, and they are exhausted due to lack of sleep, and they have NO ONE to call to help them, no one they trust to watch the baby, or no one available because "the system" is flawed. So they end up shaking the baby out of frustration, or maybe it's pent up rage from a string of events, or maybe they are so high on cocaine or whatever- that their rage is heightened to a point where they have no control. Maybe they just don't care, maybe they just want/need to crying to stop. That's the best they can do. I never said that people who abuse children are "right", I just said that's the best "they" can do.

Society is a collection of human beings, who have allowed certain human beings to come to power and rule over everyone else. Those in power are corrupt, they do not have the best interests of the majority at heart- they are money and power-hungry, they are stroking their egos. The people who are "in charge" are at fault. I can't even tell you how many times people who have the tiniest bit of power over me (or those that THINK they do) have abused that miniscule amount of power. I've seen it happen to so many people. Some of those "power people" claim to be there to help you, but it's a big fat lie. They are there to get paid. Maybe they started out trying to help people, but somewhere along the way that changed.
Society is what people make it. Society is what people accept, condone, and the actions of the majority.
I do not believe that blaming society is shifting the blame. I never said that those who break the law (ignorance is no excuse) should get a free ride. They should go to jail, but what is the rest of the world going to do about it after the fact? Look down their noses at the criminals and shake their snooty heads in disgust? When people get off their high horses, and stop being so judgemental of everyone who's "different", and start helping people instead of sitting around gossipping about celebrities and neighbors and who's banging who at work, etc., then Society will start to turn. It IS possible, for human beings to set aside their differences and embrace each other as a member of the human race. But it's not going to happen until individuals who DO know right and wrong, and who are capable of self-control start that change- when they are of sound mind.

If everyone is doing the best that they can do, then why do you think that consequences for breaking society's laws are justified? How do we accept punishing someone who "couldn't" help their actions? It seems cruel to put someone in prison for killing/abusing/murdering another person when they just couldn't help themselves. And what about those corrupt people in control? Aren't they doing the "best that they can do"?

I'm sorry, but I find this thinking really dangerous. People DO make choices. Sometimes we do choose below our capabilities. And it is a decision. Not simply a response to circumstances/biology/history. That is why we are given a free will.

When I am tired and snap at the children, get lazy and resist my responsibilities, act in a selfish manner, I am choosing these responses. I could choose other responses. There are days that I am doing the "best" that I can do (maybe), but there are many more that I am not. In your world, there would be no such thing as personal responsibility? How does such a society function?

No, the fact is, is that I know in my spirit when I have made a lesser choice. And I do it too often! The problem comes in folks who continue to make bad choices despite "knowing" that they could choose better. The more we make those more neg. choices, the "quieter" that inner voice reminding us to do better becomes.

Now, we can be compassionate, try to understand others' POV and circumstances, but isn't that a choice to be our best selves? To not judge, but to see the whole person? We each should be accountable to what we are capable of. And I would argue that we are each capable of choosing beyond our circumstances. Of course, that is why our judicial system is a jury by our peers, to hopefully sort through all of the circumstances surrounding our decisions. But they are decisions. Ones we make every day. And some are most certainly not the "best" that we can do.

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

bkpan

03-25-2008, 07:37 AM

:blush:

I can't seem to figure out how to quote the previous poster. Just ignore me, lol.

JuJuBee

03-25-2008, 09:27 AM

Those in power are corrupt, they do not have the best interests of the majority at heart- they are money and power-hungry, they are stroking their egos. The people who are "in charge" are at fault.
Jenn, I really appreciate your clarification. I am trying to understand your position, and I was tracking along fine until we got to the above point. And right here is where I see your position as self-refuting. To rephrase your argument, the people without power are doing the best they can; the people with power are at fault (i.e., not doing the best they can). And yet those whose actions you see as 'the best they can at the time,' the child abuser, the pedophile, the murderer, these are people who are in power in their particular way over another. It may be more limited in scope, but the reality is I have power over the three children who are directly in my care at this moment. The pedophile who has seized charge for a child and uses that power to abuse, the rapist who forces a woman to submit to his sexual urge, what is this is not a use/abuse of power? Or, to flip the question, why do you not view those in power as also doing the best they can? And why is (broad) power the fulcrum upon which your argument turns? If the poor, uneducated father who beats his children is doing his best, then why not also George Bush? The only difference is their circumstances, circumstances over which they had scarcely any control at all. Is it not unfair to condemn George Bush for his position of privilege? Isn't he doing his best, too?

The logical outplay of your philosophy (if I am understanding it correctly), seems to absolve people (except those in power) of personal, moral responsibility for their actions. As a poster above said, how could we justly punish people if they were truly doing their best at the time? In fact, what would justice mean at all? And how could we execute justice, since those who would be exercising it over others would, by definition, be in power, and therefore corrupt? Ultimately, what would 'good' actions and 'bad' actions mean? If it's all 'the best I can do' then how can we differentiate between my beating my child or my hugging him?

lovemyboys

03-25-2008, 10:33 AM

....have you been playing with your Easter peeps?

:lol:

SWB has said the same. I hope I'm doing an adequate job. :001_unsure:
I've heard this too. I think it's natural to wonder and hope and strive to do our best for dc, I know I sure do.

j.griff

03-25-2008, 11:37 AM

Jenn, I really appreciate your clarification. I am trying to understand your position, and I was tracking along fine until we got to the above point. And right here is where I see your position as self-refuting. To rephrase your argument, the people without power are doing the best they can; the people with power are at fault (i.e., not doing the best they can). And yet those whose actions you see as 'the best they can at the time,' the child abuser, the pedophile, the murderer, these are people who are in power in their particular way over another. It may be more limited in scope, but the reality is I have power over the three children who are directly in my care at this moment. The pedophile who has seized charge for a child and uses that power to abuse, the rapist who forces a woman to submit to his sexual urge, what is this is not a use/abuse of power? Or, to flip the question, why do you not view those in power as also doing the best they can? And why is (broad) power the fulcrum upon which your argument turns? If the poor, uneducated father who beats his children is doing his best, then why not also George Bush? The only difference is their circumstances, circumstances over which they had scarcely any control at all. Is it not unfair to condemn George Bush for his position of privilege? Isn't he doing his best, too?

The logical outplay of your philosophy (if I am understanding it correctly), seems to absolve people (except those in power) of personal, moral responsibility for their actions. As a poster above said, how could we justly punish people if they were truly doing their best at the time? In fact, what would justice mean at all? And how could we execute justice, since those who would be exercising it over others would, by definition, be in power, and therefore corrupt? Ultimately, what would 'good' actions and 'bad' actions mean? If it's all 'the best I can do' then how can we differentiate between my beating my child or my hugging him?

My argument hasn't "turned" , :) It's just not being understood, and it's a bit draining to keep clarifying. I didn't say that those in power aren't doing "their best". And ultimately, IMO (based on my Christian worldview) *we* humans aren't capable of executing true justice. I am not absolving anyone for their actions, that is for God to do (or a priest, if you are Catholic).
Everyone is power hungry, the problem, IMO is how much percieved "power" we as "society" willingly hand over to the Rich and Powerful. I think I am done posting in this thread now, otherwise we could nit pick back and forth for eternity :D *I* understand *my* POV, and whether others think it is faulty, irrational, illogical does not matter to me. :) Have a great day.