A Reality Check for Switching to TOG for High School

[HockeyMom]

I’m in the midst of some long term planning and would love to hear some feedback from high school TOG users if you can spare some time.

I’m currently using Sonlight Core 5 for Social Studies, Lit and the odd English Comp activity. I’m thinking I might extend out Core 5 for next year (grade 8 for my son) and then move to TOG for his high school years to cover History, English, Geography, and Fine Arts. My main reasons for considering TOG for grades 9 thru’ 12:

1. TOG appears to facilitate self-directed learning and student-led accountabilities as they advance through high school (more so than Sonlight, perhaps). Would you agree TOG is strong in this endeavour?

2. TOG appears to give Mom lots of handholding so that she can encourage her student to dig deeper into the material covered. Can TOG push Mom to be a better teacher/learning partner, especially during the high school years when stuff is harder for Mom too?

3. As TOG years/units are multi-level we could dip between Rhetoric and Dialectic activities. Sonlight history/lit has been great, but I suspect TOG will be a more challenging course of study. Going full throttle with Rhetoric-level learning, if it overwhelms the student, can be avoided by dipping down a level if need be, right?

4. If desired, TOG seems to incorporate some hands-on activities. Are there hands-on learning opportunities for Rhetoric-level students too?

I have some reservations about considering TOG for high school:

1. We’re Canadians. How much U.S. history in years 3 and 4? Tons and tons? A fair amount, but not overkill? I’m O.K. with a manageable amount (Cdn and U.S. history overlap to an extent; U.S history, when studied in tandem with Canadian history, will broaden student understanding of North American issues), but I’d like to avoid completely re-inventing the wheel, kwim? Once I was comfortable with TOG's way of doing things, would adding in Canadian content be doable without me losing my mind?

2. TOG might not be easy to adapt for a family with a different religious persuasion. Can TOG be a secular program if need be, without turning things upside down and inside out? Is it a matter of not doing Bible and Church History and tweaking other subject areas, or is it’s worldview woven tightly into all areas of the program?

If you’ve stayed with me so far in this post, thank-you for hanging in. Any feedback, advice, or comments welcome …

Thanks so much,

[choirfarm]

Hi!

I am really glad that I had a couple of years with only dialectic before we got to the rhetoric level. In a way after 2 1/2 years in this program, I can see how the writer did this. When her kids were small and she went through it the first time she didn't do all the stuff that was written. She just covered the time period and got people to learn how to read and do basic math. As her children went into dialectic, she went deeper. Her third time around she got the full meat. So she has put all of that into TOG, but she never did all of it at one time. Each year I have done this, we have gotten better and i have learned more and more. I am going to do so much better when I go through this again with my younger two. All of that to say, I don't think you will do as well with this program if you only do it for high school. There will be SO much of a learning curve.

Self directed learning: Yes that is true, but ONLY with the training. It will also depend upon the child. The first year they were 5th and 7th. I showed my 7th grader how to plan, but it was a disaster for my 5th grader and so I planned for him. 6th and 8th we did year 2 again as dialectic. My oldest LOVES planning everything himself. My 6th grader tries, but i find that he waits until Thursday night to get a lot of the written work done. We are now doing year three witht he 7th grader dialectic and the 9th grader rhetoric. 9th is completely independent: even runs off Poetics/Frameworks as he needs it and maps. 7th grader is much better.

2. Oh yes, we did Sonlight for several years and this is MUCH deeper, especially the rhetoric level. So much so that I can't wrap my brain around it. I'm getting better and I am learning more. I was an education major with my fields being history and English and this is better than most of my classes were in college. As I said, I will be much better discussing this the 2nd time around.

3. Yes, you can drop down a level. My 9th grader has done the history as written and I have modified the literature. He also does church history and geography. I chose not to do the philospophy and government tracks this year. This is also partly because "I" don't have to prepare in those areas as well. You can also chose alternate readings. I really do love that about TOG. I LOVE having everything in front of me and choosing what works.

4. No, no hands on activities, but you could always use the dialectic ones. Instead of activities they have an in-depth study of art and music. (We aren't doing that either.)

To be honest, I"m not sure about Canadian history as I've never studied it by itself. What I really LOVE about this program is that it studies everything all together. So we are studying the Kansas Nebraska act in US history and the Crimean War overseas as well. It works well as my children know their US history VERY well because of Sonlight and our travels and so they can concentrate their energy on learning the world events. I'm sure it would be easy to incorporate more Canadian history where it goes. You can also use more of the world sources and questions and leave off more of the American ones if you wished.

Religion: Yes, it is interwoven into it all the way through, but to me it isn't one particular point of view. She asks questions and makes you think all the way through. I was so excited in Year 1 when it came to creation, she gave 4 or 5 different ways that Christians interpret the word day: 24 hours, epoch, etc. She didn't say which was correct, she just presented the information. Now Christ being the Savior is strong throughout, but other than that she presents that there are different points of view on subjects and encourages you to discuss it as a family. I'm reading the church history book on the Civil War right now for rhetoric and it is fascinating. It talks about how both sides used God to justify their beliefs and thoughts.

I hope that helps. All I can say, is this year in the rhetoric level, I have worked harder than ever keeping up. However, I at least had 2 years under my belt to see how it worked. The first year they didn't answer questions much or at all and I had to lead them. Last year, they did a better job. They now answer all of them well. It took training and well. Jumping from Sonlight into TOG as a 9th grader would be REALLY tough. TOG is SO SO SO much deeper.

Christine

[Janice in NJ]

Not to hi-jack. Christine, an FYI. My kids and I enjoyed this little clip on the Crimean War this week. Lots to discuss here. :001_smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnpaCbUV2eY

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

[Brigid in NC]

TOG appears to facilitate self-directed learning and student-led accountabilities as they advance through high school (more so than Sonlight, perhaps). Would you agree TOG is strong in this endeavour

Absolutely! :) Not sure if it is more or less than Sonlight.

TOG appears to give Mom lots of handholding so that she can encourage her student to dig deeper into the material covered. Can TOG push Mom to be a better teacher/learning partner, especially during the high school years when stuff is harder for Mom too?

Yes. It does take lot of mom-work (reading the teacher notes so you can facilitate the discussions). But if you want that -- if you want to learn/re-learn right along side your kids, it is a terrific resource!

As TOG years/units are multi-level we could dip between Rhetoric and Dialectic activities. Sonlight history/lit has been great, but I suspect TOG will be a more challenging course of study. Going full throttle with Rhetoric-level learning, if it overwhelms the student, can be avoided by dipping down a level if need be, right?

That's what we did. It was especially helpful in the 9th/10th grade. TOG is rigorous, and the Rhetoric level is particularly rigorous.

Can TOG be a secular program if need be, without turning things upside down and inside out?
Personally, I think Year 1 would be the hardest. Because of the time period covered, there is a lot of Bible reading that is core to the history component. Years 2-4 have this too, but in Year 1 it is more core. If I were you, I'd try very hard to borrow a couple of years of TOG to peruse in-depth. We absolutely loved Year 4, and really liked Years 2 and 3. I do not have a different Biblical outlook than the TOG authors, but I had to tweak Year 1 a lot to achieve what I wanted for history when we used it. But I have several friends who absolutely love/loved Year 1! :)

It's a wonderful resource, whether you use it all or just parts. Best of luck!
~Brigid

[Mama Lynx]

Just FYI - we use TOG secularly, but find that we are quite unable to use Year 1. The other years have been quite easy to secularize.

[HockeyMom]

Christine, Brigid, and Stephanie,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Thanks for sharing.