Today I saw what I think is possibly the most offensive bumper sticker I have seen.

[Antonia]

"You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

"You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder.

Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door.

Barb

[GothicGyrl]

Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door.

Barb
Ya know, I like that :)

I know these two are comparing apples to oranges, but when I was Christian, I kept hearing "you can't be christian and goth" either. And that still burns me because it shows ignorance of one or both things.

And I wish they'd stop calling it "pro-abortion" and call it "pro-choice" because to say pro-abortion implies that I just do not care what happens, go get this procedure done willy nilly any time and as many times as you wish--which is so far from what the pro-choice movement actually stands for, that calling it anything but pro-choice is insulting.

But what do I know. People like to ding me for saying "flippin'" so hehe. I like what Barb said. Sums it up pretty much.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Ya know, I like that :)

I know these two are comparing apples to oranges, but when I was Christian, I kept hearing "you can't be christian and goth" either. And that still burns me because it shows ignorance of one or both things.

And I wish they'd stop calling it "pro-abortion" and call it "pro-choice" because to say pro-abortion implies that I just do not care what happens, go get this procedure done willy nilly any time and as many times as you wish--which is so far from what the pro-choice movement actually stands for, that calling it anything but pro-choice is insulting.

But what do I know. People like to ding me for saying "flippin'" so hehe. I like what Barb said. Sums it up pretty much.

And since I just received a PM accusing me of being snarky, I'd like to clarify. I was actually trying to diffuse a potentially ugly thread because bumper stickers just aren't worth getting excited about. Anyone who puts something so divisive on a bumper (regardless of stance) is asking for trouble. I always roll my eyes at them and snort. So, no...didn't mean it as snarky...I really wouldn't want to live next door to someone rigid and shallow enough to post philosophy on a "flippin" bumper sticker :D

Barb

[GothicGyrl]

Geez, you got a pm or a neg rep? All I can do is sing:

"I'm going back.. back.. back to school now yeah"




(grease 2 if you are wondering)....

[LaMere Academy]

Eh, what do you expect from someone who sums up their life philosophy and glues it to the back of a car? Just be thankful you don't live next door.

Barb

:lol: That was too funny!

[Antonia]

I was actually trying to diffuse a potentially ugly thread

Thanks. That's why I wrote "without getting into the a. debate." I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim? I know personally I wanted to run her off the road. :glare:

[Amy in NH]

Yeah... and I think the "pro-life" movement should be called the "anti-choice" movement, because that's really what it boils down to: pro-*choice* vs anti-*choice*.

[GothicGyrl]

Thanks. That's why I wrote "without getting into the a. debate." I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim? I know personally I wanted to run her off the road. :glare:
Because like Barb said (and I don't care if someone thinks I'm being snarky)---some people sum up the whole of their life by stupid little sayings on a piece of paper with glue. And they think that little glued piece of paper actually means something. The same applies to those "fish" on the backs of cars I see..

[Eliana]

Yeah... and I think the "pro-life" movement should be called the "anti-choice" movement, because that's really what it boils down to: pro-*choice* vs anti-*choice*.

I disagree. I think one of the reasons we have the divide we do is that the issues each side is passionate about aren't parallel. Pro-choice doesn't equal anti-life and pro-life doesn't equal anti-choice....

A (highly imperfect) analogy might be the (American) Civil War... the core issues to the people on each side weren't parallel at all...

[To be clear: I am not trying to voice an opinion for or against either 'side'... my beliefs don't fit either side's positions.]

[PrairieAir]

Because like Barb said (and I don't care if someone thinks I'm being snarky)---some people sum up the whole of their life by stupid little sayings on a piece of paper with glue. And they think that little glued piece of paper actually means something. The same applies to those "fish" on the backs of cars I see..

Well, I wouldn't put a fish on the back of my car (though I am Christian and do not try to hide it), but I do think that is quite a bit different. There is a lot more to being a Christian than there is to being pro-choice or anti-abortion.

And I most certainly disagree with that bumper sticker and find it to be in VERY poor taste as well as inaccurate.

[PrairieAir]

I disagree. I think one of the reasons we have the divide we do is that the issues each side is passionate about aren't parallel. Pro-choice doesn't equal anti-life and pro-life doesn't equal anti-choice....

A (highly imperfect) analogy might be the (American) Civil War... the core issues to the people on each side weren't parallel at all...

[To be clear: I am not trying to voice an opinion for or against either 'side'... my beliefs don't fit either side's positions.]

:iagree:

[Tracey in TX]

Yeah... and I think the "pro-life" movement should be called the "anti-choice" movement, because that's really what it boils down to: pro-*choice* vs anti-*choice*.

What the bumper sticker is lacking (other than tact) is that pro-choice allows the death of a baby. How can any human being willingly participate? The "choice" was made before the pregnancy.

[Laura in VA]

I believe you're fortunate. And, they do it because they feel strongly about abortion and I would assume they believe that it goes against Christian beliefs.

[Antonia]

sigh... Ok, I'm starting to feel sorry I asked, but what I was trying to get at is why one *Christian* would completely alienate another over an issue, even a big one. I understand putting a bumper sticker on your car that might read, for instance, "abortion kills" to get your belief out there, but I do not see how this particular sentiment does *anyone* any good. For those who don't believe in abortion, would you put this on your car? If so, what would you hope to achieve by it? I am personally pro-choice, but even if I were pro-life, I can't imagine putting this on my car and out there for other Christians to see. To what end?

[PariSarah]

I guess what I'm trying to understand is why someone would feel the need to put that out there when there is no good that can come of it, kwim?

. . . that some people value (what they see as) truth-telling even when (what they see as) the truth is unpopular, unheeded, or unwelcome. Some people even enjoy being cast in the role of Cassandra.

Besides, how can you say that "no good can come of it"? It pissed you off, didn't it? It made you respond. That's a good, as far as the bumper-sticker-owners are concerned. And now you're talking about it on an online chat board. You're forcing people to discuss the issue (even though you claim not to want to get into the a. debate). Another good, as far as they're concerned. Imperfect goods, but still goods.

When I was pastoring, I was always much more cheered when people argued with me about what I said than when people shook my hand on the way out the door and promptly forgot everything. Arguing is a good.

[Peek a Boo]

What do you choose if you're pro choice?
What are the choices?
death, and life.
One human chooses to kill another.
That's the choice you are defending.
You are defending the right to take an innocent life w/o consequence or due process.
You are defending the right to kill.
You are defending the right to choose death.

The right to choose life is not what's under attack.

If you believe the opportunity to choose to kill should be a right, then why get hung up on "pro choice" vs "pro life"?

I really don't see what the big deal is --kinda like anti-abortionists not wanting to use the term "fetus/embryo" thinking it messes up their stance.
I think the use of those terms strengthens it.

If you are going to defend another's right to kill another human at any pre-born stage of development, then let it be there: define your choice and stand behind it.

I'm not anti-choice: there are plenty of choices in how to deal w/ a living human being.

I am anti-death.


We could get into a discussion of "where does Christianity condone the intentional killing of a human being for convenience sake" but that might get sticky. More about death and wars and killing in the thread....last month? I think the bumper sticker is obviously directed at those who identify as being Christian. If you consider yourself Christian, they want you to examine why you think Christ/God would condone abortion. And a lot of that depends on your beliefs in the Bible --not everyone adheres to it but still calls themselves "Christian." So if you consider yourself a Christian and feel the bumper sticker was wrong, then how *as a Christian* would you state your case to allow abortion as a moral, protected choice?

I do understand that sometimes "the choice" to become pregnant was taken away. i still think that's a tough sentence: to execute another human because someone's choice was taken away. Two wrongs and all that.

[Angela in TN]

Geez, you got a pm or a neg rep? All I can do is sing:

"I'm going back.. back.. back to school now yeah"

(grease 2 if you are wondering)....

Completely off topic BUT at one time I knew every line in Grease 2, don't know if I should broadcast that but I loved that movie. :lol:

[Antonia]

Besides, how can you say that "no good can come of it"? It pissed you off, didn't it?

See, that's the thing. It didn't piss me off. It only made me wonder what she was trying to prove by dividing up the very people with whom she supposedly identifies, other Christians. Is the issue more important than the faith? In this case, it would appear so.

[Peek a Boo]

Why is it ok for Christians to be divided on this issue?

[GothicGyrl]

Antonia, I just want to tell you that this thread is going to quickly do exactly what you don't want it to. I will be watching closely, but I'm not getting into a "contest" with anyone over my decisions and I'd suggest you don't either because if you think that bumper sticker got your goat, just wait.

No, it's best to let it lay now... the issue to people who use those bumper stickers, is more important to them than their faith, IMHO, and it makes them lose sight of the true meaning of their faith. They are focusing on one issue and one alone, ignoring many others that shouldn't be ignored. It's kind of like Westboro Baptist and Fred Phelps--everything is "fag this" and "fag that", they focus soley on that one issue, all others be ****ed.

Don't let this thread work your blood pressure up. It's not going to, mine. I totally disagree with Peek, but she knows this already, so there is no need for me to rehash it.

Just giving you a heads up, is all.

[Gailmegan]

Wow! So many good thoughts on this thread. And great that it is civil, since it is such a controversial subject which evokes passionate responses. So now to my randome thoughts:

I think people post things like that on bumper stickers because they are looking for a platform for their opinions and are not being sensitive to the feelings of others. I agree that the opinion of someone who uses a bumper sticker in this was is not worth my time. Sadly, it is things like this that give Christians a bad name, and make me wonder if that person really understands the gospel at all. As Christians we shouldn't be calling the salvation of another person into question for any reason apart from denying the gospel of Jesus Christ. And especially not for political reasons. I can't tell you how many times people have told me that I can't be a Christians and be a democrat. Well, I guess I'm in trouble. LOL

I am pro-life (and I'll comment on that in a minute) yet I understand that many people in this nation are not, and that many people in this nation, some Christian, do not believe that life begins at conception. I disagree, and I support crisis pregnancy centers that counsel women not to have abortions. But I also don't see anything changing with our laws because of how most Americans feel about abortion, so I don't make the abortion issue a top political concern of mine.

As for the terminology. ITA with PP that there are definitely falsities with each distinction. I happen to hate when anti-abortion people call themselves pro-life, yet are pro-war and pro-death penalty. I am pro-life and that is across the board. I am against abortion, war, capital punishment, and the mistreatment of people in things like torture, and issues of not taking care of the poor, etc. All of these are issues of life!

I feel like there was something else I wanted to say, but I forget. :tongue_smilie:

[Elaine]

Completely off topic BUT at one time I knew every line in Grease 2, don't know if I should broadcast that but I loved that movie. :lol:

:lol: That's terrible!:lol:

[Antonia]

... the issue to people who use those bumper stickers, is more important to them than their faith, IMHO, and it makes them lose sight of the true meaning of their faith. They are focusing on one issue and one alone, ignoring many others that shouldn't be ignored.

That was my exact feeling, but I was wondering if someone who would feel comfortable putting that on their vehicle might have a different take.

Thanks for the warning, Toni!

[Laura in VA]

Very nicely stated. I wish I could give you some rep, but I have to spread it around first.;)

[j.griff]

*I* don't believe in bumper stickers, they are against my "religion" :D
However, I don't see this as being that different from any other bumper sticker. Some Christians feel the need to label everyone and everything according to whether it fits "their" belief system or not. They may think that by displaying said comment, they may "slap" some truth into another "believer" who just hasn't totally come over to the "right" side yet, KWIM? I think the whole Jesus fish/Darwin Fish/Jesus Fish Eating Darwin Fish/Darwin Fish Eating Jesus Fish line of stickers is ridiculous and "offensive". Obviously you disagree, WHO CARES? (and by you, in that sentence I'm referring to the fish sticker appliers). We all believe different things, and bully people believing differently than I do are *not* going to scare me into accepting *their* personal beliefs as Gospel in and of itself. Que sara sara (I have NO idea how to spell that, LOL). Live and let live, or live and let others make fools of themselves as they see fit. :D

[Peek a Boo]

As Christians we shouldn't be calling the salvation of another person into question for any reason apart from denying the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What *is* the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Even Christ says that some who call "Lord Lord" will be turned away because they never Really Knew Him. he also tells us that there WILL be divisions because some cling to Him regardless of another's feelings.

But we ARE repeatedly called to judge another's actions. Or spoken words, be they in family situations, congregational issues, or political issues.

i would posit that the bumper sticker requires you to examine your understanding of the gospel.


But if the bumper sticker really is that offensive, I would ask WHY do you find it offensive? Why do you think it is OK for Christians to be divided on this?

I would say this thread really isn't about abortion so much as it is one's understanding of Christianity, the gospel, and the Bible.

[Jenny in Atl]

As a driver in Atl (lots of road rage around here) I would rather not give another driver the excuse, with a bumper sticker, to be more annoyed then they already are. A clean bumper is a happy bumper.

I find I almost drive off the road trying to read all these stickers. My least fav are those, "My kids is an honor student at XXX school" Ya, and the public schools in GA are, what? third from the bottom out of all 50.
:tongue_smilie:

[LizzyBee]

For those who don't believe in abortion, would you put this on your car?

No, I would not.

[Gailmegan]

Peek a Boo - I would love to continue this, but I'm on my way to get the boys in bed (then watch LOST), and I'm not really sure the discussion of what Christianity is is what the OP was looking for. Also I know that we have various denominations of Christian faiths here, and since I'm new I'm not really sure what's appropriate. So, think about it and I'll check back later, and maybe we could continue this in PM if you want. :)

[Jackie in AR]

Yes, that is nicely stated.

Laura, I gave her some rep. :)

[WendyK]

I don't know a lot of people who are "pro abortion". That isn't the same as pro choice in my mind. I am pro choice. I believe people should be allowed the choice. But I would never have an abortion and I am not in love with abortions or the idea of abortions.

[Antonia]

i would posit that the bumper sticker requires you to examine your understanding of the gospel.

See, I didn't get that feeling at all. What I read was "If you don't believe the way I do, you are NOT what you think you are, or what *I* am - a TRUE Christian." And I have to wonder, what does this prove? Is this inflammatory thing going to change someone's mind? Are they going to suddenly say to themself, "Oh wow, I guess I better change my thinking about this!"? I just don't see that happening. To me, it's just someone being divisive, and I gotta wonder why.

[Mama Bear]

Well, I wouldn't put a fish on the back of my car (though I am Christian and do not try to hide it), but I do think that is quite a bit different. There is a lot more to being a Christian than there is to being pro-choice or anti-abortion.

And I most certainly disagree with that bumper sticker and find it to be in VERY poor taste as well as inaccurate.


The only sticker I think I could ever put on my vehicle with a clear conscience (because of all the above reasons)? "Expect Miracles" I'm thinking of making them and selling them, actually. :D

Okay, I could also (maybe) put "Homeschool Bus" on there. I have window clings from various zoos and AAA.

[Peek a Boo]

Peek a Boo - I would love to continue this, but I'm on my way to get the boys in bed (then watch LOST), and I'm not really sure the discussion of what Christianity is is what the OP was looking for. Also I know that we have various denominations of Christian faiths here, and since I'm new I'm not really sure what's appropriate. So, think about it and I'll check back later, and maybe we could continue this in PM if you want. :)

gailmegan, you're right :-)


As a Christian who DOES understand there are many beliefs about Christ, scripture, and salvation, I do understand that the real question is why you think Christians shouldn't be divided on this. If the offense is "causing division" by speaking your mind whether people agree w/ it or not, then Christ Himself is guilty :-)

i don't necessarily think "division" is a bad thing. But it IS important to examine why one feels that division in the area of abortion is ok --or "Christian".

Do feel free [anyone] to PM me. I'll talk to ya later :)

[mcconnellboys]

I have seen this same bumper sticker. I can't say that it really surprised me when I've stood in a coop setting and heard one person say that another "can't be Christian" because they don't agree with them on some point of life, don't vote just exactly like them, etc., etc. This seems to be a common accusation that "Christians" use against one another: "I just don't know how you can call yourself a Christian IF......" (fill in the blank with whatever you don't happen to agree with today....) I grew up hearing some of this, as well, on occasion, so it's been around a while.

I remain, for almost 4 decades now, mystified that folks who proclaim that they are attempting to follow Christ ("Christians") can be every bit as judgmental and holier than thou as the Pharisees whom Christ called to task some two millenia ago. We are like children who remain little perpetually - like the lost boys in Peter Pan - we never learn, do we?

Regena (who is trying to learn what agape love truly means.....)

[Peek a Boo]

See, I didn't get that feeling at all. What I read was "If you don't believe the way I do, you are NOT what you think you are, or what *I* am - a TRUE Christian." And I have to wonder, what does this prove? Is this inflammatory thing going to change someone's mind? Are they going to suddenly say to themself, "Oh wow, I guess I better change my thinking about this!"? I just don't see that happening. To me, it's just someone being divisive, and I gotta wonder why.

well, what *IS* a "True Christian"?

As a Christian, we are called to help others grow in the Christian faith.
If a Christian believes it is ok to lie repeatedly to their spouse, kids, and friends, then yes, I would question their understanding of the gospel.

Was Christ Inflammatory?
Did He change people's minds?
Was He divisive?

what is it you're wondering?
why do you think being divisive about life is a bad thing?

[Eliana]

I would say this thread really isn't about abortion so much as it is one's understanding of Christianity, the gospel, and the Bible.


I hope that is the discussion that happens then. The who is a Xtian issue is one which continues to baffle me - perhaps I will get some more clues here....

Where do you think the line is between someone's actions/words being... out of sync with Xtian values/beliefs and that person no longer being a Xtian?

Do most denominations have a ...creed (is this the right term?) which outlines the core beliefs without which one isn't 'really' a Xtian?

If abortion is such an issue, how is that different than supporting the death penalty? (I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference, I'm curious as to where the theological line would be in determining someone's status as a Xtian. I'm, in fact, not arguing anything at all! ;))

[Peek a Boo]

This seems to be a common accusation that "Christians" use against one another: "I just don't know how you can call yourself a Christian IF......" (fill in the blank with whatever you don't happen to agree with today....) ......
I remain, for almost 4 decades now, mystified that folks who proclaim that they are attempting to follow Christ ("Christians") can be every bit as judgmental and holier than thou as the Pharisees whom Christ called to task some two millenia ago.

YES!! and when we hear that accusation, are we ready to give an accounting of our faith to other Christians as called to? Are we ready to back up our actions w/ Christ's?

does agape love mean we defend the right to kill unborn children for convenience sake? Or does it mean we support each other as we all make decisions that kill-- kill spirits, kill relationships, kill actual people?

i don't see the discussion of faith as "holier than thou" --i see it as a necessary vehicle to encourage us ALL to examine our faith and understanding of Christ and the gospel.

[j.griff]

I admittedly haven't been studying my bible lately, :o
But, things like this make me think of certain popular passages.
What about "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
*I* am Christian, and *I* don't care whether another human being believes that I am or not, KWIM? Everyone has their own story, everyone will see the world and the bible and Christianity through their own personal filter.
That doesn't make it right, but it doesnt' make it wrong either. 100 different people will interpret a single verse to mean 100 different things. Christ isn't here in person telling us whether we are mistaken, all we have to go by is the Bible. Nevermind the contreversy surrounding that. *I* think that the key is "seek and you shall find" "knock, and the door will be opened to you".

[pixelroper]

what is interesting to me "is anyone really pro-abortion?", in my head it is the ole' 'personal right to choose' at the front of the argument, don't get mad at me I really am serious and mean absolutely no offense.

The theology is another matter. And an ongoing public debate.

and no I wouldn't use that bumper sticker, and to the poster that pointed out its one of those things that gives Christians a strike against them in the minds of others- I agree.

Just for the record- it did provide a topic of discussion, no?

[Antonia]

Was Christ Inflammatory?
Did He change people's minds?
Was He divisive?

what is it you're wondering?
why do you think being divisive about life is a bad thing?

I think discussion is a fine thing. That's why I keep showing up here. :)
I just don't think this type of comment invites discussion or the changing of minds. This type of comment leads to a casting out.

I know Christ was inflammatory. He *challenged* people to examine themselves. This doesn't feel like that to me. This is simply inviting someone who has a different belief on *one* issue to take a walk. All other things being equal: profession of faith, acceptance of Christ as savior, etc., should one issue decide whether someone is "worthy" of calling himself a Christian. And who gets to decide that?

But, I digress. :) Would *you* put the sticker on your car?

[jail warden]

If abortion is such an issue, how is that different than supporting the death penalty?

I don't completely know where I stand with the death penalty, I lean toward being against it, but haven't scripturally sought out the answer. However, the glaring difference between the death penalty and abortion is that abortion is taking an innocent life, while the death penalty it punishing someone for their crimes. God has said that anyone who sins against the little children would, it would be better that a millstone be hung around his neck and he be cast in the deepest ocean.

I don't judge people for things that are not spelled out black and white in the Bible. In my belief, I must go by what the Bible says and all other things are freedom issues where I don't have to do it one way or another, only what God has given me direction in.

I do believe in loving people who are doing wrong. They are the ones who need it most. So while I don't think what they are doing, or have done, is right, I will still love them and be supportive of them as long as my family is not put at risk. I don't believe in beating people over the head for making bad choices because we are all human and we all sin. I've made terrible choices at times too.

I would not have a bumper sticker like that because I am to be a light to the world and not a sledge hammar. I do agree with the sentiment, but the wording and tone was poor taste and probably turned people off.
And if it made one person lose faith that would be terrible.

[Laura in VA]

Planned Parenthood to name one. I went to them when I was a teenager and pregnant thinking they would help. They wanted to help me to an abortion. And, what about the choice of the unborn? What about their rights?

[Peek a Boo]

I hope that is the discussion that happens then. The who is a Xtian issue is one which continues to baffle me - perhaps I will get some more clues here....

Where do you think the line is between someone's actions/words being... out of sync with Xtian values/beliefs and that person no longer being a Xtian?

Do most denominations have a ...creed (is this the right term?) which outlines the core beliefs without which one isn't 'really' a Xtian?

If abortion is such an issue, how is that different than supporting the death penalty? (I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference, I'm curious as to where the theological line would be in determining someone's status as a Xtian. I'm, in fact, not arguing anything at all! ;))

I would like to hear more about this too.

Most creeds don't address abortion at all, mostly the relationship of the Trinity.

There's plenty of Scripture that warns about actions that denote a problem in the relationship of a person w/ Christ. Christ points out that some who appear righteous aren't following Him. Others ARE righteous and don't appear to be [depravity of man].

*I* would ask anyone defending abortion to defend their faith as well.
I'm not seeing how the gospel of Life meshes w/ a defense of death. Including the death penalty.

ultimately I'm not the one deciding one's salvation.
Christ didn't challenge people to examine themselves --He told them what was expected and needed. examining yourself doesn't cut it. You must be born again. With Living Water [Christ --not necessarily H2O] and the Holy Spirit.

As a Christian, I do have a duty to help others in their walk. There's a big difference between "casting the first stone" [which leads to Death] vs "preaching the good news of the gospel" [which leads to Life] and letting people know that God and Christ DO hold a position on the issue of people's lives. Yes-- casting out is a BIG part of what God will do. That's Scriptural too. a lot of people don't like that part tho.

Which brings me back to: as a Christian, how can one defend a right to abortion?

[Peek a Boo]

Planned Parenthood to name one. I went to them when I was a teenager and pregnant thinking they would help. They wanted to help me to an abortion. And, what about the choice of the unborn? What about their rights?

To be fair, I went to PP when I was pregnant w/ #1 for a test. They never mentioned anything other than "are you planning on continuing the pregnancy?" and didn't push after i said "yes."
:-)

[Jenny in Atl]

I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child.

[RebeccaC]

Well I would not put the bumper sticker on my car.

Since some one asked the question what is the difference between believing in capital punishment and not believing in abortion I will try and bungle an reply. A simplistic answer is this is in capital punishment the guilty dies for his or her crimes (and yes I know it is imperfect) in abortion the Innocent dies or is executed for his or hers father's sin in the loop hole of r*pe and inc*st.

I believe in choice the choice of life. I believed in it so strongly that while single I took in a pg teen supported her for the first 3 years of her babies life. In that time she finished high school and got a two year degree with honors from a Jr college and then left my house to marry. Three years ago I went to that babies graduation from seminary (yep I have gray hair,) two years ago I went to his wedding. That girls parents and boyfriend, all nice Christians, would rather she have aborted, pressured her to abort. The baby liked and is thankful for the choice of life. In fact he had no idea that his mother had been pressured to abort but at his wedding he thanked her for the gift of life. I am not naive enough to think that every situation turns out like this but I am a firm believer that where there is life there is Hope. Why kill hope.

This will be the bumper sticker I place on my car, A person's a person, no matter how small

[Eliana]

I would like to hear more about this too.

Most creeds don't address abortion at all, mostly the relationship of the Trinity.

There's plenty of Scripture that warns about actions that denote a problem in the relationship of a person w/ Christ. Christ points out that some who appear righteous aren't following Him. Others ARE righteous and don't appear to be [depravity of man].

*I* would ask anyone defending abortion to defend their faith as well.
I'm not seeing how the gospel of Life meshes w/ a defense of death. Including the death penalty.

ultimately I'm not the one deciding one's salvation.
Christ didn't challenge people to examine themselves --He told them what was expected and needed. examining yourself doesn't cut it. You must be born again. With Living Water [Christ --not necessarily H2O] and the Holy Spirit.

As a Christian, I do have a duty to help others in their walk. There's a big difference between "casting the first stone" [which leads to Death] vs "preaching the good news of the gospel" [which leads to Life] and letting people know that God and Christ DO hold a position on the issue of people's lives. Yes-- casting out is a BIG part of what God will do. That's Scriptural too. a lot of people don't like that part tho.

Which brings me back to: as a Christian, how can one defend a right to abortion?

Thank you for telling me more about where you hold!

Quick question about your question at the end: are you asking how your fellow Xtians can defend a legal right to abortion or a *moral* one?

And, not so quick question, where do y'all hold about legal code vs moral/religious code? Do you believe that you (generic you to Xtians here) should work to make the laws of the land align with your religious law? (that isn't right, *I* have religious law, you have ?creeds? (not that you don't have laws, but it isn't the central, defining thing for y'all that it is for me and mine... I'm just starting to wrap my brain around the worldview differences involved in that!)

And, another not as quick question: about the duty to help others in their walk. I hear a wide range on this concept - some seem to mean that they have an obligation to chastise each other, harshly, even ; others that they should share the word when they feel they see others going off the path; others that they ought not to judge or reprove others at all (lots more variety than this, but that's the broad picture I'm seeing.)

Where does this come from? (source text(s)?) Without clearly articulated laws, how is one person's sense that another is straying meaningful - where does this inspiration come from?

You mean JC by 'living water'? Oh. *stunned Eliana sits here and boggles* I guess that makes sense, from your perspective... it never in a million years would have occurred to me though...

If most creeds don't address abortion, then how could someone not be a Xtian if they are pro-choice (or even pro-abortion)? [Genuine question! I'm sure you have an answer, I just don't have the background to deduce it.]

[pixelroper]

(I can't remember my source-oops-I'll work on it),

recently I read that Hebrew culture was one of the few if not the only groups in ancient days that didn't condone the killing of infants or children for any reason, I'm not sure about abortion but I'm going to assume that wasn't approved of either. Others did; anyone see the movie 300? and how the Spartans tossed out imperfect babies?

I'm sorry but I don't think the death penalty & war etc. really belong in the same category either.

[Mx5]

"You can't be Christian and be pro-abortion." :blink: I have to say I was really astounded by the sheer divisiveness of the thing. Without getting into the abortion debate, can someone please enlighten me. What point is served by a proclamation such as this? I sit here shaking my head in wonder.

The purpose of the sticker is probably to cause people who see it to think about abortion from a spiritual perspective.

I've seen, IMO, far worse stickers... some that I've had to tell my kids to not look at. Yikes.

[Peek a Boo]

what is interesting to me "is anyone really pro-abortion?", in my head it is the ole' 'personal right to choose' at the front of the argument, don't get mad at me I really am serious and mean absolutely no offense.

would you DEFEND one's right to have an abortion?
back to "what are you choosing if you're pro choice?"
If you would defend abortion, you ARE stating a case FOR abortion --PRO abortion. That doesn't mean you have to like abortion, but it does say that you are willing to support someone in killing another human. Being pro-abortion doesn't mean you like it. But if you are ready to let someone choose death, be ready to call it that.


The theology is another matter. And an ongoing public debate.

except that the theology was one reason the OP was "offended".
I'm still wondering why, scripturally, one would be offended at insisting on life.



and to the poster that pointed out its one of those things that gives Christians a strike against them in the minds of others- I agree.

except that Christians aren't out to earn strikes or points--just model Christ. That can certainly be divisive and caustic at times.

Jenny --I am pro-abortion if the mother is going to die. By default, the pregnancy can't continue if the mother is dead. However, i would only side w/ methods of aborting the pregnancy that do not kill the child for the sake of killing the child. Removing the fetus/ aborting the pregnancy does not need to result automatically in the death of the child. It probably will though in earlier stages. but if the mother is going to die, the child would too. I'll side on the side of life --saving one life instead of losing two.

[RebeccaC]

I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child.

I can weigh in on my experience. Both my pgs were high risk. At 32 weeks with my oldest we both nearly died and spent a week in intensive care and at his birth my heart stopped and I spent another week in intensive care. We thought we would stop there but God in His wisdom 14 months later sent along another pg. From 20 weeks on it was a fight to save him and save me. He was born a month early. I can say for myself that my choice was and would have been his life before mine.

[JuJuBee]

and how the Spartans tossed out imperfect babies?


Coincidentally, we read about that, literally just today, in Hillyer's Child's History of the World. My children were horrified!

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion! LOL

[Eliana]

I can weigh in on my experience. Both my pgs were high risk. At 32 weeks with my oldest we both nearly died and spent a week in intensive care and at his birth my heart stopped and I spent another week in intensive care. We thought we would stop there but God in His wisdom 14 months later sent along another pg. From 20 weeks on it was a fight to save him and save me. He was born a month early. I can say for myself that my choice was and would have been his life before mine.

((Rebecca))

My religious Law holds the opposite. Were I to conceive now, Torah Law would not permit me to risk my life to try to carry my child. (Also serious cardiac issues. My doctors have been very clear about how likely it would be to kill me.)

My most recent miscarriage was an enormous gift, I was not put in that position, but it rips my heart just to think about how close we came to it.

Nadia, are you around? Or Kate? Where does Islam hold on this aspect of the issue?

[pixelroper]

I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child.

personal decision, depends on circumstance- however the argument has been made that if you are truly filled with the Holy Spirit, you might feel the necessity to have the child saved over your own life, in short "heaven awaits"
St. Gianna did this. So have many other women.

[Tracey in TX]

personal decision, depends on circumstance- however the argument has been made that if you are truly filled with the Holy Spirit, you might feel the necessity to have the child saved over your own life, in short "heaven awaits"
St. Gianna did this. So have many other women.

When I was pregnant with the triplets, we were told to expect any number of catastrophic situations. My instructions to the dr and DH was "babies first". My job as their mother is to protect them first and foremost. It never came to fruition, but I felt as a Christian, to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I find bumper stickers tacky, but not offensive. I have to wonder why someone would believe that the folks who just happen to be trapped in traffic with them value the bearers opinion on politics or social issues.

That being said, I appreciate funny/joke bumper stickers. The lighten my mood.:001_smile:

k

[pixelroper]

would you DEFEND one's right to have an abortion?
back to "what are you choosing if you're pro choice?"


the individuals right to choose- being of Libertarian bent I'd rather the government stay out of it- no promoting- as in Planned Parenthood & ps, and leaving medical decisions up the individual and their doctor. And I also believe the guardians of minors should never be left in the dark.

Peek:
I'm not sure I understand your question about
"" except that the theology was one reason the OP was "offended".
I'm still wondering why, scripturally, one would be offended at insisting on life.""

and from Peek:
"except that Christians aren't out to earn strikes or points--just model Christ. That can certainly be divisive and caustic at times."

very true, however, is there a definition that clearly defines Christianity? Yes, one who follows Christ but it is never that simple as some can't even agree on the meaning of a particular verse. Soooo, if you aren't a Christian you tend to lump them all together. And all the Christians do not agree fully on many things.

[RebeccaC]

((Rebecca))

My religious Law holds the opposite. Were I to conceive now, Torah Law would not permit me to risk my life to try to carry my child. (Also serious cardiac issues. My doctors have been very clear about how likely it would be to kill me.)

My most recent miscarriage was an enormous gift, I was not put in that position, but it rips my heart just to think about how close we came to it.

Nadia, are you around? Or Kate? Where does Islam hold on this aspect of the issue?


((Eliana,))

My mil was an Orthodox Jew and she quietly made that suggestion. What dh did was to take permanent measures so that we would not be in that place again. I do not know what Orthodox Law is on that but dh was raised by his gentile father as an atheist and converted to Christianity when we married. The doc told him outside the OR after the section to do that and do it quickly. He told us later that he never in 20+ plus years of practice told any one that because he was Roman Catholic and he believed sterilization was wrong but his pro-life beliefs he said trumped the other. Plus it helped that we were not Catholic.

Now It seems like my mil said that the Law especially the Sabbat laws could be broken in order to save a life. So is it that you do not believe that the child has life till the first breath? Just conversing here :001_smile: Seems like that is where my mil stood no soul till the first breath. I could have that wrong she passed a few years ago and I just don't remember now.

I wish I could have had more kids and we are too old now to adopt babies. In a perfect world I would have had more children but I am so very blessed with the two I have. I would guess that this also makes your dc all the more precious.

[Peek a Boo]

Quick question about your question at the end: are you asking how your fellow Xtians can defend a legal right to abortion or a *moral* one?

Moral *and* legal. But for the sake of THIS discussion --Scriptural defense.
The OP was offended at the "divisiveness" the bumper sticker causes.
Why? what is the scriptural grounding for seeing this as something that we should not be divided on?



And, not so quick question, where do y'all hold about legal code vs moral/religious code? Do you believe that you (generic you to Xtians here) should work to make the laws of the land align with your religious law?

you're right --not so quick question OR answer :) I can see lots of scripture to support varying convictions. i think there is enough scriptural support to allow one to not participate in political stuff, and I think there is plenty to allow a Christian to work within the system. i think the rest will have to wait for another thread though.



And, another not as quick question: about the duty to help others in their walk. I hear a wide range on this concept - some seem to mean that they have an obligation to chastise each other, harshly, even ; others that they should share the word when they feel they see others going off the path; others that they ought not to judge or reprove others at all (lots more variety than this, but that's the broad picture I'm seeing.)

Where does this come from? (source text(s)?) Without clearly articulated laws, how is one person's sense that another is straying meaningful - where does this inspiration come from?

many of Paul's new Testament letters offer specific chastisements: casting out people in the church, refusing to eat or associate w/ them in a state of unrepentance, Titus 2 exhorting older women and men to teach the younger ones, passages expecting a leader to not have serious problems in his personal life, etc. Paul issued many corrections harshly, many w/ gentleness. I think there is a time and place and person for each type of correction. While one person's brand of correction might not be the way i have been convicted to model Christ, someone else might NEED that type of correction that i did not provide. The Body of Believers allows for each of us to function within our abilities and gifts to accomplish different things.



You mean JC by 'living water'? Oh. *stunned Eliana sits here and boggles* I guess that makes sense, from your perspective... it never in a million years would have occurred to me though...
Christ calls HIMSELF the Living Water. Seems pretty darn logical to me, considering plain ol water doesn't do anything and christ is always chastising people to quit thinking so literally and try to get The Bigger Picture. :) Baptism in Christ and the Holy Spirit.



If most creeds don't address abortion, then how could someone not be a Xtian if they are pro-choice (or even pro-abortion)? [Genuine question! I'm sure you have an answer, I just don't have the background to deduce it.]


because your status as a Christian is not dependent on your adherence to a church's creed. The creeds developed as a way to identify w/ other Believers --they don't dole out salvation :-) Not every Christian believes in every church's creed. I take my stance on abortion from what i can find in scripture, not in a popular creed.

and I just saw your post about Torah Law --I would not be able to kill another human so i can live. I know where I will go when I die -it's not so bad :) A tubal pregnancy would be the only one I could submit to an abortion --the child would NOT be able to survive, period. I look forward to the day when they can transplant an embryo/fetus to another womb. I do think that families are given that discretion --one life to save another: [I]which life? I know a few families who were told they would die if they continued the pregnancy. They sought out extreme alternative healthcare thru midwives and were successful in surviving. Some don't survive though. That's a chance for each of us to take in our personal walk w/ Christ.

PPPSTT! someone said "wow - you really missed the point of the original post. pretty sad." So if anyone would care to enlighten me on The Point, I'd appreciate it :D

[pixelroper]

(Eliana,)

Now It seems like my mil said that the Law especially the Sabbat laws could be broken in order to save a life. So is it that you do not believe that the child has life till the first breath? Just conversing here :001_smile: Seems like that is where my mil stood no soul till the first breath.


I'd like to know that too.

[Peek a Boo]

the individuals right to choose- being of Libertarian bent I'd rather the government stay out of it- no promoting- as in Planned Parenthood & ps, and leaving medical decisions up the individual and their doctor. And I also believe the guardians of minors should never be left in the dark.

Peek:
I'm not sure I understand your question about
"" except that the theology was one reason the OP was "offended".
I'm still wondering why, scripturally, one would be offended at insisting on life.""

and from Peek:
"except that Christians aren't out to earn strikes or points--just model Christ. That can certainly be divisive and caustic at times."

very true, however, is there a definition that clearly defines Christianity? Yes, one who follows Christ but it is never that simple as some can't even agree on the meaning of a particular verse. Soooo, if you aren't a Christian you tend to lump them all together. And all the Christians do not agree fully on many things.


My biggest question is : If You are Offended By the Bumper Sticker, To Which Brand of Christianity do you belong [define your faith] and why do think abortion is right *as a Christian*??
It's exactly BECAUSE so many people call themselve Christian w/ no real definition that they take offense.

Are you a follower of Christ?
Christ as defined how? Christ as defined where?
Christ as defined in the Bible? The same one that exhorts life?
Do you not believe in the Bible? or not all of it?
Do you pick and choose which parts to believe?

If you have a different interpretation of a Scriptural passage that you think gives us the right to kill a human for convenience sake before it is born, then i'd love to see that interpretation. Or if you don't believe in scripture but call yourself a Christian, why do you think it's OK to support a right to kill a human for convenience sake before it is born? On what do you base that? a feeling? Politics? what do you think Christ would do?

so yeah --until we find out what exactly makes someone offended that they might not be "Christian enough", it's hard to continue a discussion. My definition is from a strict interpretation of the Old and New Testament as outlined in the best selling book in the world :) I don't hold to a particular denomination.

Since the OP's offense was taken from a Christian bumper sticker, I'm trying to stay on that end of the discussion: What does one consider Christian if that bumper sticker was offensive??

I absolutely understand the Libertarian mindset, but the bumper sticker that was "offensive" didn't say "You can't be a Libertarian if you X" --it was about being a *Christian.*

[st_claire]

I haven't read all the replies, but just wanted to comment on my bumper sticker.

It reads "Keep your theology off my biology!" I've gotten a ton of compliments about it :) I also have a Darwin fish and I'm planning on ordering a "Libertarians do it voluntarily" sticker lol.

I love bumper stickers. I find its a nice way to personalize your car and get/give some laughs while on the road :)

[JuJuBee]

is there a definition that clearly defines Christianity


I'm a good Calvinist, so I'll give you this one...

All those for whom Christ died.

Bottom line, we don't know (beyond ourselves) who is and is not a Christian. Outside our earthly perspective, all those whom the Father gives to the Son, all those for whom the Son dies, all those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates -- these are all the Christians there are or ever will be.

From within a human framework, if I had to put a definition to it, I'd say it's not about following Christ per se, it's about knowing/being drawn into the life of the Trinitarian God through Him. If that's too fuzzy, I'd say the beliefs which have been held by all Christians (of the historic, theologically orthodox church) are spelled out in the Nicene Creed. From a more anthropological perspective, I'd guess the definition is something like "those who worship Christ as their primary deity." Something along those lines.

Obviously, it's a slippery term.

[Antonia]

I think my last post to you got buried, but my closing question was 'would you put this sticker on your vehicle?' I find it interesting that the only folks who responded to that question said no, even though many id'd themselves as pro-life. Not one person who defended the sticker said they would put it on their car. Interesting... and now I am going to bed. G'night!

[Old Dominion Heather]

*I* don't believe in bumper stickers, they are against my "religion" :D
I think the whole Jesus fish/Darwin Fish/Jesus Fish Eating Darwin Fish/Darwin Fish Eating Jesus Fish line of stickers is ridiculous

:iagree:

I am a Christian and I find these (Jesus fish/Darwin Fish/Jesus Fish Eating Darwin Fish/Darwin Fish Eating Jesus Fish) so stupid...

It always reminds me of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

[JuJuBee]

If You are Offended By the Bumper Sticker, To Which Brand of Christianity do you belong [define your faith] and why do think abortion is right *as a Christian*??


I am offended by the bumper sticker, but not because I am pro-abortion. I am offended by it because I don't think traffic is the time nor the back of a car the place. I'm offended by it because I care deeply about the faith and I hate seeing it reduced to the issues of abortion, homosexuality, and politics. I'm offended by it because it gives off an air of pride and "I don't care what you have to say," and because I want Christians to be known as those who show forth both truth (i.e., abortion is murder) and love (i.e., I can move toward you in love, even if you are pro-abortion, if you have had an abortion, if you are an abortion provider), and I think that says "my way or the highway and frankly I don't give a rat's *ss which you choose."

And I am offended by it because it is unprovokedly (I just made that word up LOL) and unnecessarily divisive within the body of Christ. Of course there are times where we have to stand firm on principle and there is no doubt about that. But we face those when they come up (when we have an unwed mother at church, if our pastor or elders should try to teach contrary to Scripture, or if we are in a discussion with someone we know personally), not swat at beehives with sticks.

I'm not *that* offended by it, in the grand scheme, though.

[Kelli in TN]

For those who don't believe in abortion, would you put this on your car? If so, what would you hope to achieve by it? I am personally pro-choice, but even if I were pro-life, I can't imagine putting this on my car and out there for other Christians to see. To what end?

I am staunchly prolife, even to the extreme. I would never put such a nasty sentiment on my vehicle. It accomplishes nothing.

Feeding, clothing, providing shelter to mothers in crisis so they can bring their babies to term and then choose to keep the child or allow the child to be adopted; this is the work that accomplishes something. Arguing, screaming, slapping nasty bumper stickers on the van; these things are a waste.

[Eliana]

((Eliana,))

My mil was an Orthodox Jew and she quietly made that suggestion. What dh did was to take permanent measures so that we would not be in that place again. I do not know what Orthodox Law is on that but dh was raised by his gentile father as an atheist and converted to Christianity when we married. The doc told him outside the OR after the section to do that and do it quickly. He told us later that he never in 20+ plus years of practice told any one that because he was Roman Catholic and he believed sterilization was wrong but his pro-life beliefs he said trumped the other. Plus it helped that we were not Catholic.

Now It seems like my mil said that the Law especially the Sabbat laws could be broken in order to save a life. So is it that you do not believe that the child has life till the first breath? Just conversing here :001_smile: Seems like that is where my mil stood no soul till the first breath. I could have that wrong she passed a few years ago and I just don't remember now.

I wish I could have had more kids and we are too old now to adopt babies. In a perfect world I would have had more children but I am so very blessed with the two I have. I would guess that this also makes your dc all the more precious.

I only have a few minutes before I have to get everyone into costumes and off to shul - please let me know if I am unclear.

disclaimer: everything from hereon is *imho* and according to my faith/belief system.

A baby has a neshama (a soul) from conception. There's a beautiful story about each baby have a malach (an angel) in utero with him/her teaching Torah - a representation of the womb as a makom Torah, a place of Torah - learning which is forgotten at birth. (So one spends one's life with that sense of Torah as familiar and sublime and always yearning toward it.)

Yes, Shabbos laws, for example, are transcended (not broken) by the obligation that the mitzvos were given for us to live by them, not to die by them. There are three laws which cannot be broken to save a life: idolatry, adultery, and murder [this is a complex discussion - catch me later, or email me if you want to explore it!]. Also, if one lives, G-d forbid, in a time where Torah is under attack, and the Jewish people are being forced to assimilate, one must not yield any of the laws even if threatened with death if doing so might lead other Jews to leave the Torah.

How can any killing be justified? [more complex stuff skipped here!] There is a concept of a rodef, someone pursing you in order to kill you - in this case taking another life is 'the right thing to do' [hideous oversimplification here]

Abortion when a mother's life is at risk:
Halachically speaking the born and the unborn have a different status. Though the life of the unborn is precious, it has a lower priority than the life of one who is already born. (there are opinions which give the unborn baby a different status before vs after there is a heartbeat.)

During labor, once the majority of the baby's body emerges, one may not favor one life over the other.

Peek: If it were up to me, I do not see how I could choose my own life over my child's, born or unborn - it goes against every maternal instinct, it rips me to shreds just thinking about it.

But it isn't about what I want, or what feels right to me. Divine Law is very clear, and I am bound by it, even when it goes against my every desire. I trust that G-d's wisdom is greater than mine.

May we all be spare such heartwrenching situations and be able to share many simchas together.

I must run - sorry for the rushed, incomplete response!

[Peek a Boo]

I think my last post to you got buried, but my closing question was 'would you put this sticker on your vehicle?' I find it interesting that the only folks who responded to that question said no, even though many id'd themselves as pro-life. Not one person who defended the sticker said they would put it on their car. Interesting... and now I am going to bed. G'night!


oh! yeah --

No, I wouldn't. But as I mentioned in a lengthy post above, i simply prefer a different kind of communication. Kinda like " i might support abortion, but i would never have one myself" ;)

If dh would let me put a bumper sticker on the van, mine would say what my very first post said:
If you're pro-choice, what do you choose?

or

The Supreme Court said Slavery was OK too.

[pixelroper]

I'm not offended by the bumper sticker. And I wouldn't use it on my bumper sticker free vehicle- oops I lied I do have a Glacier Park sticker on the back door somewhere.

I can't recall any verses that would allow 'you to be a Christian & pro abortion' but the verse "thou shall not judge" could be argued for pro- choice in the scope of our melting pot, meaning personally anti-abortion- but not making it illegal for everyone

[j.griff]

*I* believe that the laws of our country should not only reflect the beliefs and/or allow the choices of certain religious/personal beliefs. *I* believe in free will, and *I* do not think that others who do not hold the same beliefs as me should be made to live their lives according to *my* beliefs at all. If the law of the land affects everyone, then it should be a law that everyone can live with (yes, I am aware of the irony in that statement).
If abortions are legal, that doesn't mean that I am obligated to go out and have one, but it does leave others the "legal freedom" to make their own choice. We all have our own choices to make, and I don't see how condemning certain choices makes anyone's life any better.

[GothicGyrl]

I'll just weigh in on this without quoting anyone--this is just what I believe and feel and that's it. I am NOT a Christian, my logical thinking trumps that. That is not an attack on anyone, it's just how I feel.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. Big difference. I do not like abortion any more than you all (believe it or not), but I REFUSE to take away anyone's right to choose to have one--be it for birth control purposes (which I don't care for) or other reasons. RIGHTS--MINE--trump all else. And since I want the right to have one (if I were to ever need one) or the right for my daughters to have one (were they ever to need it); then I can never and will never work towards removing that right from anyone.

I choose to live. I can always have another child (not anymore but this is how I see it). If it comes down to a choice between my death and the embryo not surviving to birth AND I've got other kids at home--I'm living. Period. My living kids need me and I will never ever put their father or anyone else in a situation to take care of them--that is MY job.

Rape, incest, or something along those lines--you had better believe I am supporting their right to choose an abortion for these. There is no way in anyone's hell that I would force my raped child to carry another unwanted, unneccessary and certainly not warranted embryo/fetus/child to fruition. And adoption is so not the answer. I am still forcing my child to relive an unwanted decision that was forced upon her by someone until that birth occurs. And then I am forcing her to give up that child to some stranger. No way.

Using it as a means of birth control? How I would love to not have this happen. But back to my 1st point--if I remove this right, I have to remove all of it and I am not willing to do that. I agree that this is a State issue, not a Federal issue and that big government should not be involved. But if it takes the State level to see this regulated properly, then so be it; especially if it means we keep that right.

Lastly, back alley abortions are a real thing. Whether you believe in them or not. I am not taking the chance of losing two lives because someone decided they didn't want to give us the right to a safe and healthier abortion as opposed to a coat hanger. I've heard some say that this is just a propogated lie by PP and others and that it's not true. Of course I disagree. It's a very real thing to consider. I'd rather have a competent, legal doctor performing the abortion than some back alley sod.

Peek is taking a Christian stance on this and that is fine. She knows how I feel about this as her and I have had this discussion before. I am not taking any kind of religious stance on this as I do not have a religion nor do I believe the same as you all do. I will fight this tooth and nail to secure my (and anyone else's ) right to have a safe and legal abortion as deemed necessary by medical professionals.

And I will do it because once we start taking rights away... If this makes me a "murderer" in your eyes--so be it. I do not care one whit how you feel about me on this. But I'm also not going to argue with you on this either. You are free to call me what you want, doesn't bother me at all.

(the you is the general you, no one named in this thread, except for Peek and she knows that already :D)

Am I offended by the bumper sticker? Nah.. I've seen stupider and worser (haha! watch me get dinged for those words). But then again, I think all bumper stickers are "stupider and worser".. I actually like when I see cars who have these types of bumper stickers on them because it clearly tells me who I am dealing with.

[mcconnellboys]

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand. You said:

"does agape love mean we defend the right to kill unborn children for convenience sake? Or does it mean we support each other as we all make decisions that kill-- kill spirits, kill relationships, kill actual people?"

I don't think it means any of those things. And I don't think that it means that we openly, mindlessly accuse others, either - as in a bumper sticker paraded in public.... which is all I was trying to say.

And:

"i don't see the discussion of faith as "holier than thou" --i see it as a necessary vehicle to encourage us ALL to examine our faith and understanding of Christ and the gospel."

I'm not sure that a proclamation on a bumper sticker qualifies as a "discussion" of faith or a discussion of anything. And I was comparing that to folks I've heard make announcements that someone else is "not Christian because....." They're not open for discussion. Their mind is already made up when they make the statement.....

I'm not trying to defend abortion. I made no comment about abortion whatsoever. My only comment was about people accusing others they don't really know of being "not Christian because....."

Regena

[Peek a Boo]

I am offended by the bumper sticker, but not because I am pro-abortion. I am offended by it because I don't think traffic is the time nor the back of a car the place. I'm offended by it because I care deeply about the faith and I hate seeing it reduced to the issues of abortion, homosexuality, and politics. I'm offended by it because it gives off an air of pride and "I don't care what you have to say," and because I want Christians to be known as those who show forth both truth (i.e., abortion is murder) and love (i.e., I can move toward you in love, even if you are pro-abortion, if you have had an abortion, if you are an abortion provider), and I think that says "my way or the highway and frankly I don't give a rat's *ss which you choose."

And I am offended by it because it is unprovokedly (I just made that word up LOL) and unnecessarily divisive within the body of Christ. Of course there are times where we have to stand firm on principle and there is no doubt about that. But we face those when they come up (when we have an unwed mother at church, if our pastor or elders should try to teach contrary to Scripture, or if we are in a discussion with someone we know personally), not swat at beehives with sticks.

I'm not *that* offended by it, in the grand scheme, though.

[sincere questions following --no snark, i promise].

"not that offended" in the grand scheme--
so to be clear, do you find the statement on the bumper sticker to be true or untrue?

If you believe you can be a Christian and be pro-choice, with what Christian principles do you support that?

If you believe the bumper sticker is basically true, why should God's principles be banned from a moving vehicle?

How is it "unnecessarily divisive"? If it's a true sentiment, can truth really be divisive? How did Christ handle divisiveness and caustic truth? Is divisiveness ever necessary?

For Kelli:

what makes the sentiment nasty?
Is it untrue?
where is the bumper sticker arguing or screaming?
How do you support these statements from a Christian perspective?
has someone posting about seeing such a bumper sticker accomplished something *now*, in discussion?

[Michelle T]

I have seen this same bumper sticker. I can't say that it really surprised me when I've stood in a coop setting and heard one person say that another "can't be Christian" because they don't agree with them on some point of life, don't vote just exactly like them, etc., etc. This seems to be a common accusation that "Christians" use against one another: "I just don't know how you can call yourself a Christian IF......" (fill in the blank with whatever you don't happen to agree with today....) I grew up hearing some of this, as well, on occasion, so it's been around a while.

I remain, for almost 4 decades now, mystified that folks who proclaim that they are attempting to follow Christ ("Christians") can be every bit as judgmental and holier than thou as the Pharisees whom Christ called to task some two millenia ago. We are like children who remain little perpetually - like the lost boys in Peter Pan - we never learn, do we?

Regena (who is trying to learn what agape love truly means.....)

They have quite a list of specifics which disqualify a self-proclaimed Christian from being Christian, at least in their opinion. It's always been amazing to me how judgmental and self righteous they are, totally the opposite of what they claim their religion is all about.
Michelle T

[Kate in Arabia]

Where does Islam hold on this aspect of the issue?

Regarding abortion to save the life of the mother, it's the same, Eliana. And actually, there are scholars who debate the general permissability of abortion until around the end of the first trimester (a bit beyond), because of when the soul is believed to be put into (for lack of a better verb) the fetus according to Islamic teachings.

I thought I heard something similar in Judaism as well (please correct me if I'm wrong), that, for example, the customary funeral rites (ritual washing, congregational prayers etc.) are required if a fetus is 20 weeks or more, I think it is, but not *required* if it is less, or something along those lines. Thankfully, I have never had need of the knowledge.

There is a breadth of opinion on this topic in Islamic circles (abortion in general), just as there is in pretty much every other group.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand. You said:

"does agape love mean we defend the right to kill unborn children for convenience sake? Or does it mean we support each other as we all make decisions that kill-- kill spirits, kill relationships, kill actual people?"

I don't think it means any of those things. And I don't think that it means that we openly, mindlessly accuse others, either - as in a bumper sticker paraded in public.... which is all I was trying to say.

my turn to still not understand :) Please bear with me--

But who's doing the accusing? If the bumper sticker is true from a Christian standpoint, then the accuser is God, not I. i can't accuse anyone, only question for clarification as a sister in Christ who is seeking input from other Christians and declare God's word. Did Christ accuse people openly? Does open accusal mean it is mindless? If i put a bumper sticker that quotes Christ saying "I am the way and the Truth and the Life --no one comes to the father except through me" am I still being accusatory and mindless? what does it mean to "parade stuff in public"? does that mean that i should NOT be ready to share something publicly if it's true?



And:
I'm not sure that a proclamation on a bumper sticker qualifies as a "discussion" of faith or a discussion of anything. And I was comparing that to folks I've heard make announcements that someone else is "not Christian because....." They're not open for discussion. Their mind is already made up when they make the statement.....


a bumper sticker is just a statement. If the statement is true, then there is not really much discussion warranted. If the statement is untrue, then it's time to discuss. Why is it untrue? Since it is about whether one is "really a Christian", we're looking for religious grounds, not political or personal.

Yes, i know many who make such statements aren't really looking for discussion. But that's why it is extremely important that if one takes issue w/ the statement's validity they address it anyway, whether it was s'posed to be up for discussion or not. If one's relationship w/ Christ is really in question per actions and words, it is scriptural to address it.

and MichelleT --what is it they claim their religion is about?

[Lorna in the boonies]

I've always wondered about how many felt when the life of the mother is in question. I know this is a small percent of the #'s. But I would still be interested how one weighs the trade-off, not saving the mother in favor of the child.

I can kind-of, sort-of, maybe-not-really weigh in on this one.

When I arrived at the hospital (via screaming ambulance) in labor with my middle daughter, my blood pressure was 52/15. (I'm not a doctor and don't really know what that means, but I have been told that it means I shouldn't be here typing today). I was 35 weeks along and was bleeding to death. The baby had to be taken immediately.

You may notice that there is no middle daughter listed in my signature. We had found out 3 1/2 months earlier that she had anencephaly and would not survive.

I can remember being rushed into the OR, in a hurry to get her out and stop the bleeding. I can remember thinking that, if I could have continued to die right then and it would mean that she would have somehow lived, I would gladly have done it. At that moment, I knew that as surely as I know my name is Lorna.

My feelings may have been different had she been healthy and if her life had been in danger, as well as mine. I realize this doesn't really contribute to the whole discussion, as her fate was already sealed. She wasn't going to survive whether or not I did.

Still, I doubt her health would have changed anything. I honestly think I would have had a 'save the baby at my expense' attitude even if it had been possible.

And in that moment, knowing that my life was in danger as well, I would have gladly laid it down for her, if it would have done her any good. No question.

[Peek a Boo]

oops --jailwarden, i don't want you to feel left out ;)

and again --i'm REALLY trying not be snarky here --i'm seriously interested.

However, the glaring difference between the death penalty and abortion is that abortion is taking an innocent life, while the death penalty it punishing someone for their crimes. God has said that anyone who sins against the little children would, it would be better that a millstone be hung around his neck and he be cast in the deepest ocean.

I don't judge people for things that are not spelled out black and white in the Bible. In my belief, I must go by what the Bible says and all other things are freedom issues where I don't have to do it one way or another, only what God has given me direction in.


So do you believe scripture speaks to the killing of innocent life or not? Does the Bible not clearly define how to deal w/ killing another human for convenience sake?


I don't believe in beating people over the head for making bad choices because we are all human and we all sin. ...I would not have a bumper sticker like that because I am to be a light to the world and not a sledge hammar. I do agree with the sentiment, but the wording and tone was poor taste and probably turned people off.
And if it made one person lose faith that would be terrible.

If the sentiment is true, how would you reword it??

If the sentiment is true, how does that make it a sledgehammer and not light?

Why do you think it was poor taste if it was a true sentiment?

Do you think a bumper sticker would be what makes one lose their faith? How do you reckon a true statement w/ being what turns one against the faith?

What if the sticker drew someone TO Christ? would you then reconsider it's effectiveness? Is there a priority for reaching someone new w/ truth vs risking losing one w/ truth?

[*LC]

So if you consider yourself a Christian and feel the bumper sticker was wrong, then how *as a Christian* would you state your case to allow abortion as a moral, protected choice?

I do understand that sometimes "the choice" to become pregnant was taken away. i still think that's a tough sentence: to execute another human because someone's choice was taken away. Two wrongs and all that.

I do no want abortion outlawed. I am not entering into a debate about abortion or even about what Christians believe or should believe. I am genuinely answering your question as to how I as a Christian can be pro-choice, pro-abortion, or whatever you would like to call it. The phrase doesn't matter to me. I do not have any scripture to back up my beliefs. I have never read the term abortion or life begins at conception in Bible.

So, there are two main "reasons/arguments" that lead me to feel as I do. They both boil down to it is an imperfect world, and that leads to imperfect/impossible choices/consequences.

I didn't know which reason to lead with until I read this statement about two wrongs and all. One reason I don't want the access to abortions more limited is I would never want a teenage girl that had been raped to have to go before a court/judge to get permission to have an abortion. Wonder if she hadn't reported the rape, how would she prove it? Wonder if the judge felt as you and that "to execute another human because someone's choice was taken away. Two wrongs and all that?" So, this judge could block this girl's access to an abortion, because he doesn't believe abortion should be legal and she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can't imagine the shame she would "feel" as she had to spend the remaining part of pregnancy on display to the world. To teens the world revolves around them. I'm pretty sure she would either imagine everyone that saw her was thinking either "She's pregnant! I thought she was a good Christian girl; I can't believe she ...." or "I heard she was raped, but why is she pregnant? You can get an abortion if you were raped? Maybe she wasn't really raped."

And, what would she do with the baby?

Adoption? We have some kids that are adopted. They were suppose to be adopted by other families at birth, but after birth, doctors suspected health problems the adopting families were not willing to risk. So, they went into the huge pool of children waiting for families and there they waited until we came along down the road. Also, in this pool of waiting kids are children whose genetic backgrounds included schizophrenia, brain tumors and mental retardation. There are even babies that wait, because their mothers smoke and drank during pregnancy. People are not going to waiting in line to adopt the child of a rapist.

This is my second reason for supporting the continued legalization of abortion. My husband always said, "If you aren't willing to do something about a problem, then don't complain." In my opinion, there are too many living "orphans" already that Christians are not taking care of as the Bible instructs us. So, what are we going to do with even more parentless kids? I know not all babies that were not aborted would be put up for adoption. Some would be loved by their parents that would be appalled that they had ever "not wanted" the child; others would be abused/killed by parents that never wanted them in the first place.

Again not a debate, just an explanation.

I have never had an abortion. I don't even think I know anyone who has ever had an abortion. I have never supported any group that was promoting abortion; I just won't support a group that's purpose is to make abortion illegal. My thoughts on this are just the way I have felt about abortion ever since I really knew about abortion. God has never indicated to me that I should to rethink my thoughts on this. I suspect "one day" when I have to give an accounting of my life, my thoughts on this won't even come up. If it does, knowing me and my sins, it will be way down the list of everything else that God will forgive.

LC

P.S. Back to our pregnant teen. What does the judge say to her parents if she happens to die in childbirth? While not common, it still happens.

[Leah]

Yes, this is important! I can still rep her. :)

[GothicGyrl]

I will not use the quote feature on her long post, but *LC NAILED every reason I stand for in this fight. Faith/religion/beliefs aside, I 100% agree with each and every single word she said. If you have me on ignore(which means you won't see this) or if you choose not to read my words, read hers because they stand solid.

:)

[Jeanne in MN]

I must honestly say, I would never have seen the said bumper sticker as offensive. Probably because I am pro-life and a Christian and it makes sense to me. I believe the bumper sticker is a reminder to Christians that pro-choice goes against Christian beliefs. Some of you say there's no Biblical or scriptural reference, but I think what Peek is trying to say, and I agree with, is think about what Jesus would have believed and taught. I can't fathom that Christ would condone abortions. Therefore, in my mind the bumper sticker speaks truth and isn't offensive.

But I completely understand others will not agree and it could offend other Christians and non-Christians-although I believe it's directed at Christians.

[Peek a Boo]

I do no want abortion outlawed. I am not entering into a debate about abortion or even about what Christians believe or should believe. I am genuinely answering your question as to how I as a Christian can be pro-choice, pro-abortion, or whatever you would like to call it. The phrase doesn't matter to me. I do not have any scripture to back up my beliefs. I have never read the term abortion or life begins at conception in Bible.

So, there are two main "reasons/arguments" that lead me to feel as I do. They both boil down to it is an imperfect world, and that leads to imperfect/impossible choices/consequences.



Thanks for sharing your feelings LC.

I do disagree, only because i *do* see the Bible talking about murder and the taking of an innocent life [which abortion does]. The Bible also discusses the actions of infants still in the womb, God's hand in forming us in the womb, our spirit in the womb, and the penalty if a pregnant mother is injured and delivers early. But those are all easily found googling "Bible pro life verses."

i can grieve w/ the turmoil of an unplanned, violently-conceived pregnancy. I haven't been there totally, but have dealt with those w/ a friend or two.

I still stand by the "two wrongs don't make a right" but more importantly, the clarity of scripture as it deals with taking a human life. Yes, this is an imperfect world and that limits our choices. But as a Christian we are cautioned to NOT fall prey to the wisdom and ways of the world.

That teen needs a LOT of support right now. Yes, it is hard. Yes, it can be confusing. No, it is not fair. Neither is killing an innocent child. People die from abortions too. I can't condone the killing of a person just because another person might be severely inconvenienced or doesn't feel they can handle that other person's presence. Since the adoption situation is so bad, is it OK to just kill children that are already born? why not? If the state of the adoption laws is soo bad that it is OK to kill a child, why not extend that to just very young chldren? or older children w/ problems?

i would rather see the adoption laws overhauled than abortion legalized.
i don't think that one person's right to live should be decided by how another person is living or whether one set of people are doing what they should, and i can't find scripture to support culling innocent life because of living conditions, so if you find anything in scripture that does, please share it too. The verses I find on pro-choice sites {like http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml}
always use passages that list "death in the womb" and killing of children as something to bolster a view that the Bible is pro-choice, when those verses are all curses or referring to horrible situations that increase the distance FROM God, not how to grow closer TO God. I could go on, but it's already been discussed a bit in depth and in context on other pro-life sites.

But thanks for sharing your feelings on this.

PS: Toni --I'm not addressing anyone's secular reasons for abortion. yet :) Just looking for scriptural ones for now. But you're right -- I already know your view.

[Antonia]

I am thinking now (after a good night's sleep!) that I may have worded my intro poorly. Perhaps a better question would have been "would you display the following?" I really didn't mean to get into the whole abortion debate or cause dissension. Thanks to those who managed to stay on topic for an interesting and enlightening discussion!

[Karen sn]

Never mind....I just got it.

[WendyK]

***sigh*** (totally OT) I miss CT. I see you are from CT. I lived there for 32 years and I really miss it.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that I found pretty obnoxious. It had a picture of the breast cancer ribbon and said "save the ta tas" :glare:

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, Peek, I thought about this a lot last night. This post seems to be in line with what I was thinking, so I'll respond here....

I was trying to think if there is an exhortation in the Bible that could be considered to be more specifically related to abortion. I couldn't think of any and still haven't looked. So I thought that what you meant by saying that this statement just speaks a Biblical truth is that what it's really saying is "You can't be Christian and believe in breaking the sixth commandment". I hope that I'm not getting off track here. I think from this post of yours under which I'm responding that this is what you mean, isn't it?

Now this is my twisty thinking on this issue. It's something I've asked myself often over the course of time and something my children have asked on their own, too, so I'm guessing that a lot of people think about these sorts of things in regard to following the commandments.

God has very simply told us "Thou shalt not kill". He does not qualify it in any way (does He?) We know that within our own and many other legal systems, one may be held accountable for killing even if one did not actually wield the weapon. If there is "intent" shown to kill, and sometimes even if there is negligence that allows for it to happen, even if there was not specific, pre-meditated intent, then one may be adjudged guilty. I tend to think that many of us agree with this practice or it would not have come into law.

God does not merely tell us that it is a sin to kill the innocent unborn. His message implies that it is a sin to kill regardless of who is being killed. I know that some animal rights activists or Jains would take this further, to include the entire animal kingdom, or even the entire kingdom of life. I'm presuming that a lot of meat eating Christians would justify our ability to take animal life with our being given dominion over the animal kingdom, so I'm not including that - only other human life.

(I'm using the term killing and murder synonymously throughout here, okay? The commandment simply says: Thou shalt not kill.)

To me, a bumper sticker like this takes only one type of murder and invents a new category of sinner for that particular crime. It seems to me to diminish or allow for other types of murder through its silence about those.

So, does that mean that it is okay to vote for legislators who will pass into law various forms of capital punishment to kill various sorts of criminals? Is it okay to murder then?

Does it mean that it is okay to put people into office who will then involve our country in war, which involves killing of not only enemy combatants, but always some innocents who do not want a war in their neighborhood any more than we want one in ours tomorrow? And what of those who fight for us in those wars and who end up with "a kill"? Are they now forbidden from being Christian because they have broken the sixth commandment?

How about the police who protect us and end up "having" to kill in the line of duty? Does God say they are justified or it's okay to kill to keep the peace? How about law enforcement personnel who over time talk about "righteous kills"? Is there a provision in the Bible that allows for that?

And what about euthenasia? Suicide? Doctors who provide comfort meds to the patient until they've depressed the breathing to the point of extinguishment?

What about the drunk driver whose actions kill? The careless or distracted driver whose actions kill? The freak accident of any type that results in someone's death, even if the person who "caused" it did not really intend to cause a death, but still did so due to their carelessness, ignorance, sheer stupidity, etc.?

I don't know quite how to draw a hard and fast line of what God would consider our responsibility for killing. I know that malicious intent is certainly in there - but to what degree does *any* form of legislated killing or accidental killing (even if one should have known better) come onto the spectrum?

This bumper sticker seems to me to say that if you even "believe" that it's ever okay, under any circumstances, to "kill" (deprive, for whatever reason, another of life), then you can NOT "be Christian"..... And I don't think that God has ever told us this.

I think that He has told us that anyone may ask forgiveness of any sin down to their last breath and that if He adjudges them truly repentant, He may grant them forgiveness. I don't think that we can judge this at all. In the parable of the late workers, I think we see a good example of God telling us that it is not our place to try to second guess His ways, which are not our ways, and suppose that we can mete out appropriate rewards to the righteous (or conversely, appropriate punishments to the sinful).

So it seems to me that a person could believe wrongly about this idea of murder/killing. One might be against abortion, but if one is "for" killing, or allows/condones killing of any sort in any other forum, then isn't one still "for" killing? I'm not sure that God has said that *any* type of killing is okay. So I'm not sure that singling out one form and making such a statement absolves anyone who might have a different "wrong" idea that it's okay to kill (although it might make them feel absolved, so long as they don't believe in abortion, per se).

And I'm not sure that we have a right to take parts of God's word and piecemeal them out like that or twist them around to our own purpose. If God said "do not kill", and we want to put a bumper sticker on our car that says this, then I do think that's fine. That is His statement. But I don't think we should single out one form of killing over any other. A sin is a sin - hasn't He told us this? There is no "big" or "little" sin - no sin of a handslap and sin of a condemnation to hell. Doesn't He say that *all* sin is the same to Him?

And I don't think He ever said anything about what constitutes a Christian. I don't think there is any statement in the Bible that tells us "you *can't* be a Christian if...." So I'm not sure how anyone can say to another, "You can't *be* a Christian if you believe or do this or that - or don't believe or do this or that."

I don't think it's fair to take only one form of killing and make a statement that God condemns this. He says "no killing". I think that goes much further than just abortion.

I don't think it's fair to imply to others that they are in sin and will go to hell - that God will not forgive or love them - over belief or allowance of one form of killing over any of the other forms. In fact, I don't think it's fair at all for any human being, as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, to imply that they know whether or not another will repent, ask for forgiveness, and/or be forgiven by God before they die. And that goes not just for the sin of killing, but for any of the other myriad sins we may commit daily..... Sin is sin.

So I guess I feel that a more appropriate comment from someone - if they must put such a bumper sticker on their car - would be something such as, "Abortion is one form of murder and God says, 'Thou shalt not kill.'" Another person might then want to add: Euthenasia is murder. Suicide is self-murder. War is murder. Killing of criminals is murder. Carelessness that results in the death of another is murder, etc., etc. But I think God only said "Thou shalt not kill."

So I guess the point I was trying to make about all this is that I don't think one sinner (for we all are) can point a finger and make accusations at another about their particular sin. We all have sin and sin is all the same to God. We can all blame each other endlessly until we expire, justifying our own righteousness because we find ourselves more worthy than someone else - or we can try to find a way to live the greatest commandment, the one which sums up the entirety of the Bible, upon which everything else is commentary: Love your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. And Love your neighbor *as* yourself.

I guess I would find a bumper sticker that said something like, "Abortion does not fulfill God's exhortation to the greatest commandment" helpful, in fact. But I don't think a bumper sticker such as we've been discussing will change anyone's heart or mind, or change laws. I do not think that it creates love or builds bridges toward love. I think it seeks simply to tear down others, while implying that the poster of such a sticker is more Godly than some others. And I guess that brings me back to the parable of the late workers again. How can we presume to tell God who does or does not merit His reward? or what amount of reward another merits against us?

Regena

[Gailmegan]

All right Peek a Boo - I'm back and I will try to answer those questions that you have left dangling.

Is abortion wrong in God's eyes? Yes, absolutely. Thou shalt not kill. Period.

Is the bumpersticker statement true? No. Salvation does not hinge on one's views on abortion. Salvation is for all sinners who trust in Christ's death and resurrection as the atonement and victory over sin for them.

Paul has a lot to say about this:

Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates his love for us, while we are still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 10:9-10 - "If you believe with your heart that Jesus is Lord and confess with your mouth that God raised him from the dead you will be saved; for it is with your heart that you believe and and justified and with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

The entire book of Galatians is Paul chastising the church in Galatia for trying to add other conditions to salvation. Christ alone - no other conditions.

Okay, so I imagine you may be saying, but Christ is grieved by abortion, he would never condone it, so how can you follow Jesus but not be against abortion? How can you be united with Christ, a new creation, and yet go against him?

Once again back to Paul: Romans 6 and 7 discuss exactly this conflict. while we are made new in Christ and united to him, we do still continue to struggle with sin, and we will continue that struggle until death or the return of Christ. Our perfection is not complete at the moment we become Christians, it is a process and a struggle. But we have hope. Phil 1:6 - Being confindent of this very thing that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. The problem comes with judging a person's salvation on where exactly he/she is in her spiritual journey. None of us will mirror Christ exactly until we are perfected in the end.

Now you have also expressed one of the other themes of Paul's writing: the need for us to work together as a body and help each other to grow in our faith. (I Cor 12, Eph 4) But the question is how. Is a bumper sticker condemning someone based on an issue that is important but not necessary for salvation the way to go about it? Absolutely not. Even if, I repeat, even if, the statement on the bumper sticker were true, displaying such a judgment in such a manner goes against the example of Jesus and the writings of Paul. Part of the idea of being a body is that it is about relationship. When a brother or sister is in sin, we are to go to them personally. Ephesians 4:15,16 - "Instead, speaking the truth in LOVE, we will in all things grown up into him who is the Head, that is Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and buiklds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

Yes, Jesus himself did at times speak with condemnation rather than gentleness, but we are not Jesus. We do not know the hearts of other people and it is not our place to determine who is and who is not saved. Jesus himself gives us the prescription for how to handle when a brother or sister may be in sin. (Matt 18:15-20) We are to personally approach, and if there is no resolution, we include a few others. Then if still no resolution, we go to the elders of the church. The elders as a team, as a body decide how to handle the situation. This passage is where the promise that where two come together God will be there. It is in the context of church discipline. It is not up to any lay person in the church to determine if someone else is saved, rather if continually unrepentant, it is up to the elders, seeking God's wisdom to make that call. And even when they make that call, should it come to that, it is always with the intention to restore the individual, not condemn.

Phew. That's a mouthful, and I have more thoughts, LOL. I'm sure people have posted while I was typing, so I think I will just get this out there, then come back with other thoughts later.

[Gailmegan]

So we said some things that overlap and she covered the more thoughts I was planning to come back to - about all life being sacred to God. ITA Regena.

[Peek a Boo]

To me, a bumper sticker like this takes only one type of murder and invents a new category of sinner for that particular crime. It seems to me to diminish or allow for other types of murder through its silence about those.

... But I don't think we should single out one form of killing over any other. A sin is a sin - hasn't He told us this? There is no "big" or "little" sin - no sin of a handslap and sin of a condemnation to hell. Doesn't He say that *all* sin is the same to Him?

And I don't think He ever said anything about what constitutes a Christian. I don't think there is any statement in the Bible that tells us "you *can't* be a Christian if...." So I'm not sure how anyone can say to another, "You can't *be* a Christian if you believe or do this or that - or don't believe or do this or that."

I don't think it's fair to take only one form of killing and make a statement that God condemns this. He says "no killing". I think that goes much further than just abortion.



ok, THANK YOU Regena :-)

That makes a lot more sense.

There are statements about what needs TO happen to be Christian, so I don't think I'd go so far as to say there's no guidance at all as to what Constitutes Christianity. But since we all tend to disagree on the interpretations of those [belief? profession? baptism? fruit?] I won't go there.

i do belive that God's commandment is for no purposeful killing. I do know God forgives sins, even sins of differences in understanding or interpreting His word :) Now i need to go read the next post cuz i think it hit the nail on the head......

[Peek a Boo]

Is abortion wrong in God's eyes? Yes, absolutely. Thou shalt not kill. Period.

Is the bumpersticker statement true? No. Salvation does not hinge on one's views on abortion. Salvation is for all sinners who trust in Christ's death and resurrection as the atonement and victory over sin for them.


Christ alone.

You're right :)

I'm wrong.


{{{see?? now how many of y'all ever thought THAT would happen? lol....}}}

you spelled out what i left out about being a Christian. So thanks for that too:)

having been put back in my place, I'll add this bumper sticker to the emails that say if i REALLY love God then I'll forward this email to 5 people.....
I delete those. My love for God is not dependent on what i do.

and ladies, thanks for bearing with me :D

[Peek a Boo]

I was re-reading the thread and wanted to clarify a couple other points:

my initial question was:
So if you consider yourself a Christian and feel the bumper sticker was wrong, then how *as a Christian* would you state your case to allow abortion as a moral, protected choice?

but like the gal that left me a gray negative rep,
abortion isn't the issue: salvation is.
i *was* missing the point!

So while I am still staunchly convinced that abortion itself is wrong, i am firmly reminded that one's salvation is not based on their support or lack of support for abortion.

again, thanks gals for taking the time to spell it out :)

[Gailmegan]

I'll add this bumper sticker to the emails that say if i REALLY love God then I'll forward this email to 5 people.....
I delete those. My love for God is not dependent on what i do.

and ladies, thanks for bearing with me :D

I delete those too! Yuck.

As for bearing with you, that's hardly the issue. :grouphug: I think it is great to be able to have discussions like this and flesh things out.

And it reminds me of just how amazing is God's grace for me, a wretched sinner. Perfect way to start Good Friday.

[Peek a Boo]

and just to go the extra mile:

I too will agree with Antonia and state that this is the most offensive bumper sticker I've ever seen.

It discounts Christ alone in salvation.
That IS offensive.

[[how many other ways can i say I was wrong? I'm on a roll!! feel free to let me know, lol]]


As for bearing with you, that's hardly the issue. :grouphug: I think it is great to be able to have discussions like this and flesh things out.

And it reminds me of just how amazing is God's grace for me, a wretched sinner. Perfect way to start Good Friday.

Good Friday!! How true!!
:sniff:
thanks again!!!!!

[Soph the vet]

at 3 months of gestation my mom had her gall bladder removed and and did not know she was pregnant. The younger surgeon thought they should remove the "lump" in her uterus while they were in surgery. Thankfully, the older and wiser surgeon decided that would be a bad idea given that my mom was of "child-bearing" age.
If I were not here my three children would not be here, as well as the two I lost to miscarriages and I believe are in heaven.
Personally, I am glad I was not aborted.
Over forty million people are not here (USA) since 1973 due to abortion. Take just one second and think about that.

[Antonia]

and just to go the extra mile:

I too will agree with Antonia and state that this is the most offensive bumper sticker I've ever seen.

It discounts Christ alone in salvation.
That IS offensive.



Thank you! I think that was what I was trying to get at all along. I actually wrote something along those lines in my buried post last night. That's what was bothering me about it, not the sentiment regarding abortion, but the idea that an issue would become more important than the most basic tenet.

Now, while I may not necessarily agree completely about *that*, that is for another discussion. :)

[GothicGyrl]

at 3 months of gestation my mom had her gall bladder removed and and did not know she was pregnant. The younger surgeon thought they should remove the "lump" in her uterus while they were in surgery. Thankfully, the older and wiser surgeon decided that would be a bad idea given that my mom was of "child-bearing" age.
If I were not here my three children would not be here, as well as the two I lost to miscarriages and I believe are in heaven.
Personally, I am glad I was not aborted.
Over forty million people are not here (USA) since 1973 due to abortion. Take just one second and think about that.
While I sympathize with you Soph, I want you to understand that you weren't even close to being "aborted". What happened in your case, was Doctor's ignorance. I am assuming you are older than I am (35), but even at my age, back in 73 when mom had me, they just didn't think to preg. test women for "simple" procedures (like gall bladders--notice the quotes around "simple")...

You being a "lump" to that young doctor (keyword being young), only proves he was insufficient and undereducated to be doing surgery. Not that you were going to be "aborted". With abortion there is a higher level of "knowing" what you are about to do--a level so far above being "asleep at the table, opened up for another surgery and a doctor mistaking a baby for a lump".

I have taken one second to think about your stat and I still stand by what I say. You were not going to be aborted--your mother didn't know and neither did the doctors--it would have been a malpractice suit in the making if he did remove you as a "lump". But then again, your mother probably would have never known either, if she went in to surgrey not knowing.

I am not unsympathetic to what you feel, but I would tell you this if you were standing face to face with me--you weren't going to be aborted. That wasn't even in their minds. Aborted is the wrong word for it.

[Alenee]

Here's a standing ovation!

You said everything I wanted to but couldn't put into words!

[Joanne]

Many conservative Christians do not make the distinction between *political* viewpoint and moral.

I am anti abortion. I think it's atrocious that abortion is legal.

However, given that it IS legal, I don't think focusing on abortion legality will address the real, foundational issues. The legalility (or not) of abortion isn't what kills babies. What kills babies are choices we make as parents, as teens, as church members. It's how we socialize woman to value a morphed purity and men to get as much as they can before settling in with a virgin. It's few legitamite choices, support, love and care for single pregnant women. It's the self esteem of women who have unprotected sex. And of couples who are inconsistent with birth control.

Killing babies happens long before they are conceived.

Abortion is not a voting item for me. I find it difficult to understand how people can vote along abortion lines at all, let alone as the first filter of candidtate adequacy. Fiscal policy, big/small government, defense, etc are voting issues.

The pro-choice and pro-life sides will never understand each other until they fully understand how a loving, caring, nurturing and even God fearing soul can be on the other side of the issue and be right ALSO.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. And I don't think that making abortion illegal is a productive focus in saving babies, families, women and children.

[Peek a Boo]

ok, toni, i was looking at this, and had to chime in :-)

An abortion is simply a removal of the embryo/fetus from the womb.

An induced abortion is where the embryo/fetus is removed manually.
A spontaneous abortion is where it occurs naturally [miscarriage].

If this had happened and moved to a lawsuit, the charge would have been performing an unauthorized induced abortion, simply because that's what an abortion *is*: an embryo/fetus was removed manually from the womb. That the doctor may not have realized it is one thing, but as to what the procedure would BE, well, i hafta say it would have been an abortion. A mistake, absolutely, but an abortion nonetheless.

I know some gals get VERY upset that their medical charts show "spontaneous abortion" instead of "miscarriage" --don't shy from the terms, they are simply describing something medically.


and Soph, I dare say that many people would look at your "think about 40 million people missing" comment and say 'YES! Can you imagine how horribly overcrowded we would be if we had 40 million extra people now??'

not that i agree, but there ya go.

[Soph the vet]

Sorry, Toni, Peek's right, abort means to remove from the uterus whether it is from disease leading to miscarriage, surgically, traumatically, etc. The point of my post is that I was glad to have survived the pregnancy.:)
I've also been on the other side of it having an ectopic pregnancy that "spontaneously aborted" (words in my medical record) itself onto my ovary leading to hemorrhage and middle of the night emergency surgery.

The point of my statistic in the previous post is that whether you are prolife or prochoice, 40 million people is a lot to lose. They are not in the workforce, they are not paying into the Social Security system, they are not here to buy homes in the over-glutted market, I could go on and on as to the practical implications of their absence on our economy, etc. but I won't. I was just thinking that some on the board may not even realize how many abortions there have been in 35 years....the majority of which were never for medical reasons. Peek, I know many would cry "great, the less people the better" for environmental reasons or whatever. What a tragic response on their part. Life is a gift, it is precious, who are we to take it from anyone?

[RebeccaC]

Many conservative Christians do not make the distinction between *political* viewpoint and moral.

I am anti abortion. I think it's atrocious that abortion is legal.

However, given that it IS legal, I don't think focusing on abortion legality will address the real, foundational issues. The legalility (or not) of abortion isn't what kills babies. What kills babies are choices we make as parents, as teens, as church members. It's how we socialize woman to value a morphed purity and men to get as much as they can before settling in with a virgin. It's few legitamite choices, support, love and care for single pregnant women. It's the self esteem of women who have unprotected sex. And of couples who are inconsistent with birth control.

Killing babies happens long before they are conceived.

Abortion is not a voting item for me. I find it difficult to understand how people can vote along abortion lines at all, let alone as the first filter of candidtate adequacy. Fiscal policy, big/small government, defense, etc are voting issues.

The pro-choice and pro-life sides will never understand each other until they fully understand how a loving, caring, nurturing and even God fearing soul can be on the other side of the issue and be right ALSO.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. And I don't think that making abortion illegal is a productive focus in saving babies, families, women and children.


Well I agree with you on most of your post however if this was 185? would you stand by a statement that said Slavery is not a voting issue for me? It is legal and people make choices and........ For me it is the same I would not vote for a pro-slavery candidate neither would or will I vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

Wonder where the world would be if William Wilberforce felt like you and many other pro-life folks do. One of the tenants of the Christian faith in my view is to change society. Wilberforce took his entire life to change English society in a peaceful manner for the good against overwhelming odds. He cared that the immoral was legal and did something about it.:blink:

I respect your view but I think it is a wrong one and I think future generations will see it as a wrong one.

I do agree that the foundational issues must also be address :iagree: However as with slavery when folks make their living off of immoral activity fixing foundational issues will not be enough.:001_huh:

[GothicGyrl]

Sorry, Toni, Peek's right, abort means to remove from the uterus whether it is from disease leading to miscarriage, surgically, traumatically, etc. The point of my post is that I was glad to have survived the pregnancy.:)
I've also been on the other side of it having an ectopic pregnancy that "spontaneously aborted" (words in my medical record) itself onto my ovary leading to hemorrhage and middle of the night emergency surgery.

The point of my statistic in the previous post is that whether you are prolife or prochoice, 40 million people is a lot to lose. They are not in the workforce, they are not paying into the Social Security system, they are not here to buy homes in the over-glutted market, I could go on and on as to the practical implications of their absence on our economy, etc. but I won't. I was just thinking that some on the board may not even realize how many abortions there have been in 35 years....the majority of which were never for medical reasons. Peek, I know many would cry "great, the less people the better" for environmental reasons or whatever. What a tragic response on their part. Life is a gift, it is precious, who are we to take it from anyone?
I know the medical terms, I said what I did based on this discussion. So many people label anything but live birth an "abortion" that I was thinking you were doing the same. I hope you understand what I mean by that, that the word "abortion" is just overused and not used properly at that.

As for your stat, it doesn't faze me the way it does you and others. I'll just leave it at that because I've already stated how I feel many times in other threads, no need to rehash. ;)

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, you said this so perfectly. I wish I could express myself as you have. This is precisely what I was trying to say, too.

Thank you,

Regena

[TXMomof4]

I had a wonderful, eloquent amazing reply all typed up and my computer kicked me off....so here's a short version of what I was going to say earlier.

My entire problem with bumper stickers like this is that there is no way to target who reads this. If a fellow Christian reads this and agrees with you, great. If someone says they are a Christian and disagrees with you, all that happens is that someone gets angry. If a non-Christian reads it, they think "How ignorant." But most importantly to me is the person who is considering an abortion, or who has had an abortion that reads that and thinks, "There's no place for me in Christianity."

Like someone said earlier, a person who has had an abortion isn't automatically ****ed to the hot place. I know people who have had abortions, suffered through the consequences and have gone on to be great Christians. I know a friend who will have nothing to do with Christianity because of the condemnation she felt for something she did when she was 16. Is that what Jesus wanted? She can't see Jesus for the Christians. Things like that defeat every bit of evangelism and light shining in this world with one stupid bumper sticker.

I believe abortion is wrong. I believe someone, no matter what they think might be ok for another person, if they truly KNOW God, will realize that the inconvenience of an unwanted child, or the result of someones r*pe, or inc*st, can be overcome without taking the life of an innocent child. A teen girl who is in one of those horrible situations may have a hard time because they think the world revolves around them, but, hold on a minute....It doesn't. Perception is NOT reality. The reality is that the abortion would more than likely add to the problems already caused by the circumstances they are in. The people I know who have had abortions are still, more than a decade later, dealing with unbelievable guilt and sorrow over their choices. Even those who aren't Christians.

But if they have an abortion for any reason, it doesn't mean they can never experience salvation. The person who tells them they can't is in just as scary a place, IMHO!

So, no, I would never have a bumper sticker like that on my car.

However, I did see one last night that I would LOVE to find....


WWBD

What would Bubba Do?? :lol: (It's a southern thang!!!!)

[Sharon in SC]

Yes, that is nicely stated.

Laura, I gave her some rep. :)

As did I.

[mcconnellboys]

NO! It's not about being right and wrong at all! I don't want to say that "you are wrong". I don't even want to say that a person who has such a bumper sticker is "wrong". I just want to say that I think there's so much more that we need to consider. Life cannot be boiled down into such little quips as that - and only that.

I just want to say that I believe that God has told us many, many times, in a myriad of ways that we hold within our very grasp the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and that we can even experience Heaven on earth if we will only turn the key and open the door. I happen to think that the key is LOVE. And if we can only learn how to wield it properly, the world can be different than it is today, even before the second coming of the Kingdom here on earth.

I think that there are living saints who learn how to wield the key and life for all those touched by them is different because of it. Many of these we never even learn about as a public. I think that we have examples of those who live their lives for God who do become well known, such as a Mother Teresa, who do champion the perfection of LOVE (agape love -real, true, pure love - not our regular sorts of earthly love) and make a difference for the world to see, if only it can learn HOW to see. And I believe that entire governments *can* practice LOVE - it's NOT totally impractical, as it would seem.

We're currently reading about the resolution courts set up in South Africa, after Apartheid ended. I can't believe I didn't know about this! Can you imagine what would have happened if courts had been set up like this at the end of WWI? Everyone come in and admit your liability/culpability, insofar as you will (and if you won't/can't, that's okay, too) and we'll forgive you. WE'LL FORGIVE YOU. Period. The end. It's over. You ask for forgiveness and it's given - and your sin is put as far away as East is from West. Do you see the import of that????? How powerful is that????? That is LOVE. REAL LOVE. We just can't do that as humans, generally, can we? We always want justice, instead (me, too - that's me).......

How do we learn to act and react to everyone, everyday, every place with LOVE instead of our more typical righteous indignation? If we could only do that, there would be no need for such bumper stickers..... That's what I was trying to say last night.....

Regena

[pixelroper]

Wonder where the world would be if William Wilberforce felt like you and many other pro-life folks do. One of the tenants of the Christian faith in my view is to change society. Wilberforce took his entire life to change English society in a peaceful manner for the good against overwhelming odds. He cared that the immoral was legal and did something about it.:blink:

I respect your view but I think it is a wrong one and I think future generations will see it as a wrong one.

I do agree that the foundational issues must also be address :iagree: However as with slavery when folks make their living off of immoral activity fixing foundational issues will not be enough.:001_huh:


the slavery comparison is an excellent point to bring up- many Christians owned slaves and believed it was wrong, but, they felt it would be worse for the slaves to give them their freedom, dangerous even- in fact some plantations lost money by taking such good care of their slaves, no profit at all- a huge bloody war was fought over this- I see it as an example of what has been going on in this post; where a Christian might stand in relation to their societies legal position on an issue vs. personal choices. I'm not saying abortion and slavery are the same thing, just the conflict of views swirling around them.

[Eliana]

Wow! I think this one of the most fabulous discussions I've seen on the boards - and it demonstrates so many of the things which make this such a special place.

Not only was a really flammable issue discussed with candor and mutual respect, but it wasn't just individuals soapboxing, it was at times a real exchange of ideas (demonstrated most dramatically by Peek ending up seeing the issue raised by the OP from a different angle (and being the amazing discussion partner she is, sharing that with us!).

Although the boards have changed so much over the last 10 years - we're much bigger and far more educationally diverse - the special atmosphere Susan guided us to create (thank you SWB!) has remained. It is a pleasure and a privilege to be part of such a great group.

I've learned so much from all of you ladies (not that you were having this discussion for my benefit!), so, from a respectfully curious outsider, thank you for taking the time to share your heartfelt convictions.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I'd undo that, but I'm evidently currently banned from giving you rep, LOL.... I happen to think you have been the catalyst for a wonderful Easter conversation. THANKS!

Regena

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, I didn't mean that there are no guidelines for Christians, sorry it came out that way. I just meant that there's not a hard and fast list of "do all these" and you're Christian, but if you omit any or do anything from this other list, then you're not and have no hope of ever being......

Regena

[nancypants]

God has very simply told us "Thou shalt not kill". He does not qualify it in any way (does He?)

I'm doing my best to stay out of this argument and just peruse it... but I must disagree here from a scriptural standpoint. Exodus 20:13 reads, "You shall not murder," in almost every translation.

In other scriptures we can see that God believes in justice for murderers:

Gen. 9
" 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. "


Eccles. 3
" 3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,"

"8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace."

That God hates it when the innocent are punished and the guilty let off the hook.
and Proverbs
" 15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent—
the LORD detests them both."

And that he imbues us with life and "an inmost being" while we are in yet in the secret place,

Psalm 139:13 "For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb."

Through other passages we can quite easily gather that our "inmost being" is our spirit,

"27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man [a] ;
it searches out his inmost being." "16 my inmost being will rejoice
when your lips speak what is right." " 1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name."


So #1 God places a spiritual value upon unborn babies, #2 He approves of justice for murderers and #3 that "all killing is not created equal" and that sometimes it is not only prohibited but actually called for.

I am using as little of my own words as possible here.

Respectfully submitted,

[nancypants]

I had a wonderful, eloquent amazing reply all typed up and my computer kicked me off....so here's a short version of what I was going to say earlier.

My entire problem with bumper stickers like this is that there is no way to target who reads this. If a fellow Christian reads this and agrees with you, great. If someone says they are a Christian and disagrees with you, all that happens is that someone gets angry. If a non-Christian reads it, they think "How ignorant." But most importantly to me is the person who is considering an abortion, or who has had an abortion that reads that and thinks, "There's no place for me in Christianity."

Like someone said earlier, a person who has had an abortion isn't automatically ****ed to the hot place. I know people who have had abortions, suffered through the consequences and have gone on to be great Christians. I know a friend who will have nothing to do with Christianity because of the condemnation she felt for something she did when she was 16. Is that what Jesus wanted? She can't see Jesus for the Christians. Things like that defeat every bit of evangelism and light shining in this world with one stupid bumper sticker.

I believe abortion is wrong. I believe someone, no matter what they think might be ok for another person, if they truly KNOW God, will realize that the inconvenience of an unwanted child, or the result of someones r*pe, or inc*st, can be overcome without taking the life of an innocent child. A teen girl who is in one of those horrible situations may have a hard time because they think the world revolves around them, but, hold on a minute....It doesn't. Perception is NOT reality. The reality is that the abortion would more than likely add to the problems already caused by the circumstances they are in. The people I know who have had abortions are still, more than a decade later, dealing with unbelievable guilt and sorrow over their choices. Even those who aren't Christians.

But if they have an abortion for any reason, it doesn't mean they can never experience salvation. The person who tells them they can't is in just as scary a place, IMHO!

So, no, I would never have a bumper sticker like that on my car.

However, I did see one last night that I would LOVE to find....


WWBD

What would Bubba Do?? :lol: (It's a southern thang!!!!)

I love what you have said here.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm doing my best to stay out of this argument and just peruse it... but I must disagree here from a scriptural standpoint.
***
So #1 God places a spiritual value upon unborn babies, #2 He approves of justice for murderers and #3 that "all killing is not created equal" and that sometimes it is not only prohibited but actually called for.

I am using as little of my own words as possible here.

actually, nan, I believe scripture reveals a lot more than that :-)

but I already discussed it here:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8073

[debbiec]

I think the owner thought that true faith is defined by the issue ~ therefore, yes, directing it to nominal Christians (in the owner's view)?

[Antonia]

She can't see Jesus for the Christians.

This is an excellent post (and I am pro-choice). I love the above quote!

[jail warden]

We've had quite the busy day, so I'm only finally getting back to you!So do you believe scripture speaks to the killing of innocent life or not? Does the Bible not clearly define how to deal w/ killing another human for convenience sake?

I can't recall exactly what it says, but yes it does speak against killing innocent life and God especially had a heart for the little children who are innocent as mentioned in my previous post.

?[/quote]If the sentiment is true, how would you reword it??

If the sentiment is true, how does that make it a sledgehammer and not light?

Why do you think it was poor taste if it was a true sentiment?

Do you think a bumper sticker would be what makes one lose their faith? How do you reckon a true statement w/ being what turns one against the faith?

What if the sticker drew someone TO Christ? would you then reconsider it's effectiveness? Is there a priority for reaching someone new w/ truth vs risking losing one w/ truth?[/quote]

I don't know exactly how to reword this phrase because it's a bit negative where it starts. I like to phrase things in positives, such as "Life is a Miracle". I personally think the negative wording makes it a sledgehammer.

In respect to it being a sledgehammer or being light, I know that when I am told that something I'm doing it wrong, the tone and countenance of the person make a world of a difference. If they come to me in a loving tone that tells me they want what's best for ME and not their aggenda filled, then I'm reseptive to what they have to say.

In my own life, how I come across is a HUGE problem for me. God has only been showing me in the last two years, through many hardships of my own, that no one is perfect and I need to give grace to others and myself. I am not saying there are never times for tough love, but I believe God will direct me in those because they would be major issues, to those closest to me. Most other people have no clue and just need to see how and what someone else believes and why.

I want to be the one that people see and long to have a closer relationship with God because of what joy He can bring in our lives. In the process they will begin to see why I believe what I do and I can challenge their thinking then. I'm so far from being this person because I do have a harsh tongue more times than not, but it's my goal!

[jail warden]

Okay I obviously can't do more than one quote in a box! Not sure what I did wrong! :willy_nilly:Alright I get to use this little buy finally!:lol:

[Calming Tea]

I am just popping in to say I am impressed with the respect and clarity with which you have expressed yourselves.

And:

Peek a Boo is some kind of clone of mine. Everything she said I echo 100%.

And- my husband and I have had long discussions that abortion is like the new slavery. But worse, of course, since the baby's death is involved. What we need now is a William Wilberforce for abortion.

And lastly, though I am a Christian, and though I believe Christians can't be pro-abortion or pro-choice, I still wouldn't put that sticker on my car, but I would not necessarily disrespect or be upset at someone else sticking it on their car. Mostly, I just don't get why someone tries to sum up a major belief on a sticker.

Okay. :auto:

[Peek a Boo]

I don't know exactly how to reword this phrase because it's a bit negative where it starts. I like to phrase things in positives, such as "Life is a Miracle". I personally think the negative wording makes it a sledgehammer.

I've been thinking about this part all day, lol.

It occurred to me that my initial problem was that I see it as Christians *shouldn't* be pro-abortion.

We are to be imitators of Christ.
We are to model Christ.
Scriptures show Christ and God as most definitely pro-life.

especially when it comes to how we -as christians, in this day and age- are to view the purposeful taking of a human life for convenience sake.

So I would simply reword the bumper sticker as--
God is Pro Life.
or
Christ is Pro life.

the reason that the original sticker becomes an untrue --and thus offensive-- statement is that Christians are NOT God. While we are certainly called to model Him, we are also fallen sinners.

Do we continue in sin so that grace may abound?
of course not.

So since christians can sin and still be Christians [that's, uh, kinda the whole point, lol], that negates the sentiment on the sticker :)

[nancypants]

deleted because I may have misunderstood you Peek... too tired to read that whole overworked old thread to check though so I'm just deleting and going to bed! LOL

[Peek a Boo]

darn! i missed it before you deleted it!

that's ok nan :-)
I promise I won't bite you too hard when we start questioning and examining each other ;)

But I'll bet you didn't misunderstand me-- we just think differently on the issue, hee hee. we could go back to discussing oinos, lol!

or maybe just drinking it.....

[3littlekeets]

To the person who pointed out the difference b/w political and moral or religious views, thank you!

Morally, I am very anti-abortion.

Politically, I am pro-choice.

My DD, now 6, has a diagnosis of Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome). Many of the very people who argue "pro-life" are quick to terminate a child with a prenatally diagnosed disability. Just read "termination due to prenatal diagnosis" boards. People "give their child back to God," and "spare" the child from a life of teasing. BLECH!!! They are sparing themselves from a little extra parenting, imho.

My DD is in Kindy, we afterschool not homeschool. She knows her prayers in Latin, nontheless :-).

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

So, I abhor termination for any reason -- the most for a child who isn't "good enough." My DD is more than I could have ever dreamed ;-). But, I'm also prochoice -- the choice to not test and to not terminate.

Peace!
http:www.missmagic.blogspot.com

[Peek a Boo]

Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, they will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

Hm. I hadn't really thought of that.
but my ultimate line of reasoning is that it's a one way street: Life, all the way. They recommend it now because it's legal. And popular.

I don't think they should have the power to determine who must terminate anymore than they have the power to decide who CAN be slaves. We haven't really had a problem w/ gvt outlawing slavery but then putting SOME people into slavery. So historically, i don't think that moving in direction A [outlawing abortion] will mean that direction B [mandating abortions] will happen too.

[Peek a Boo]

Anyway, why do we keep refering to abortion and slavery in the same sentences? Those two are not of the same ilk?

Because they both deny another human the right to live freely.
And they were both upheld as "legal" by the Supreme Court.

from the secular side, i view abortion as a basic human rights issue.

edited to clarify:


Because they both deny another human the right to live freely strictly for another's convenience.

[Melinda in VT]

To the person who pointed out the difference b/w political and moral or religious views, thank you!

Morally, I am very anti-abortion.

Politically, I am pro-choice.

My DD, now 6, has a diagnosis of Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome). Many of the very people who argue "pro-life" are quick to terminate a child with a prenatally diagnosed disability. Just read "termination due to prenatal diagnosis" boards. People "give their child back to God," and "spare" the child from a life of teasing. BLECH!!! They are sparing themselves from a little extra parenting, imho.

My DD is in Kindy, we afterschool not homeschool. She knows her prayers in Latin, nontheless :-).

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

So, I abhor termination for any reason -- the most for a child who isn't "good enough." My DD is more than I could have ever dreamed ;-). But, I'm also prochoice -- the choice to not test and to not terminate.

Peace!
http:www.missmagic.blogspot.com

I've spent some time on those boards as well. And I have certainly read some posts that caused me to cringe or angered me. But I have read other posts that made me cry with sorrow for parents who found themselves in a horrible, horrible situation and who were trying to do what is best for their child.

Is it really more kind to allow a child whose organs are growing outside his body to develop as long as possible before he dies? Wouldn't the child actually suffer less if he were aborted at an earlier stage of development? If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice? Or might the correct choice vary from family to family?

I don't know the answers to those questions. Further tests showed that the fatal diagnosis we feared was not true in our case. But the time we spent walking in that shadow has given me a new sympathy for those whose fears were confirmed by the medical tests. And I know that had that been our road to walk, I would have wanted the decision to be made by my husband and I, seeking to know God's will for us, and not by the government.

[RebeccaC]

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

http:www.missmagic.blogspot.com


This will be a moot point if the ballot in Co is pass calssifying the unborn as a person at conception. If that happens every unborn child will have the protection of the US Constitution and the right to life, liberty....... and specifically the [14th] Amendment. Which requires the states to provide equal protection under the law to all persons, not only to citizens, within their jurisdictions. Which brings us back to the parallel with slavery because the 14th Amendment was put in place to protect and secure the rights former slaves. It is not about who cannot terminate but about the rights of those being terminated. Give the unborn the status of person hood and they cannot be executed because of a disability any more than your dd or my niece with autism or my sons with LKS can be executed now outside of the uterus.

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, I hope we are not arguing - I didn't think we were! I know there are a lot of side threads to this that I haven't read, but I thought we were just talking about our differing perceptions of the message on this bumper sticker and why we feel as we do.

I think I said in the message that you're referring to that I was going to use the words 'kill' and 'murder' interchangably. I wasn't trying to make a distinction between those two words, as I see them used interchangably throughout the Bible.

I understand that God believes in justice for murderers. I believe He provided a very thorough plan for His people in Numbers chapter 35 regarding how they were to handle purposeful vs. accidental commission of murder. However, in doing so, it does seem to me that He recognized all those things as murder, whether intentional or not. Which is the point I was trying to make in one of my posts (don't recall if that would have been the one you read this statement from).

And I don't think I made any statements at all about whether or not unborn babies would be considered people too. I absolutely believe that they are people too. I applauded that Pres. Bush refused to allow human embryo research (and you see how fast scientists were able to come up with a solution to that problem when confronted with a flat-out refusal, too, in spite of all their complaints about how it would set them back). I was trying to make the point that all other forms of murder, whether intentional or not, are also just as heinous as abortion. They are still murder. Murder is murder. Sin is sin. So I didn't see why a bumper sticker should single out and focus on only one form of murder.

Many innocents die each day worldwide due to starvation and warfare. If we have contributed to the chaos where they live, or have refused to provide aid where we can, then I'm not sure that we can turn our heads and pretend that we're not all guilty of murder of innocents. I'm not sure that the Bible singles out unborn babies and asks us to specially protect them over and above all other innocents in the world.

So I absolutely agree with you that God places value on every single soul in the Universe, no matter what earthly state it might be in at the time, but I guess I would disagree that any one soul merits more love or consideration from Him than any other, as I believe He loves us all equally.

I absolutely agree that God approves of justice for murder and we see some of His provisions for that in the Bible, but I disagree that we humans are capable of arbitrarily deciding what that justice will be and how it will be meted out without God's direct guidance. And I certainly don't think that a quip on a bumper sticker could be considered meting out of appropriate justice, for all the reasons several of us espoused yesterday, such as driving away potential future Christians, who might then think there is no hope for them, etc.

And yes, I know that God does call for killing throughout the Bible for various reasons. I can only say that I am not capable of understanding His ways (as He tells me I am not), and that I would find this acceptable only if He were absolutely definitely directing us in it. I don't think that He's intervening in our judicial process to insure that only the guilty are punished and/or that punishments are fair and equal. For instance, I don't think the current state of our law regarding pedophiles is stringent enough at all.

So I can agree that not all murder is completely equal (as in purposeful vs. accidental; not one innocent over another), and I can agree that it's not always prohibited but sometimes even called for, but that would be God's call, alone, not ours.

Regena

[Lorna in the boonies]

If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice? Or might the correct choice vary from family to family?

My child had a fatal diagnosis (anencephaly) and I was encouraged (very, very strongly encouraged) to abort.

We carried our daughter to term, and it was the wisest move we have ever made.

While I don't condemn others who choose differently, I feel like I would have cheated myself out of the one experience which has probably taught me more about mothering than the 15 years I've spent mothering my healthy children.

My daughter lived and died peacefully. We met her, we held her, we spent her entire life loving her, and she died in her father's arms while he sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her.

Do I think it was the only morally acceptable choice? In the case of anencephaly, no. I think I could have chosen to abort and it wouldn't have been "wrong" of me to do so (and I say this only because I researched anencephaly extensively at the time -- I do not necessarily feel this way about any other birth defect).

Except for this one point: how could we abort her and then tell our children that we serve a miracle-working, healing God? How could we look at them with a straight face and tell them that, when we had robbed Him of that opportunity with our daughter?

It was not an easily-reached decision. Nobody knows exactly how they will react until they are in that situation.

You can't get much more pro-life than my dh and I are. I agree with just about everything Peek a Boo has had to say. It was still a hard call.

I'm glad we chose to carry her to term. It was an amazingly beautiful, yet amazingly painful, experience. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I also wouldn't trade the world for it, either. I would do it again if I had to, and the second time around, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

But the first time, it wasn't an easy decision.

[Melinda in VT]

My child had a fatal diagnosis (anencephaly) and I was encouraged (very, very strongly encouraged) to abort.

We carried our daughter to term, and it was the wisest move we have ever made.

While I don't condemn others who choose differently, I feel like I would have cheated myself out of the one experience which has probably taught me more about mothering than the 15 years I've spent mothering my healthy children.

My daughter lived and died peacefully. We met her, we held her, we spent her entire life loving her, and she died in her father's arms while he sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her.

Do I think it was the only morally acceptable choice? In the case of anencephaly, no. I think I could have chosen to abort and it wouldn't have been "wrong" of me to do so (and I say this only because I researched anencephaly extensively at the time -- I do not necessarily feel this way about any other birth defect).

Except for this one point: how could we abort her and then tell our children that we serve a miracle-working, healing God? How could we look at them with a straight face and tell them that, when we had robbed Him of that opportunity with our daughter?

It was not an easily-reached decision. Nobody knows exactly how they will react until they are in that situation.

My husband is an Assemblies of God pastor. You can't get much more pro-life than we are. I agree with just about everything Peek a Boo has had to say.

I'm glad we chose to carry her to term. It was an amazingly beautiful, yet amazingly painful, experience. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I also wouldn't trade the world it, either. I would do it again if I had to, and the second time around, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

But the first time, it wasn't an easy decision.

Lorna, thank you for sharing your experience with your daughter. I don't think it came through in my original post, but I would never criticize anyone who chose to carry a child with a fatal diagnosis to term. And I understand what you mean about leaving time for God to work a miracle.

Blessings to you and yours.

[RebeccaC]

Is it really more kind to allow a child whose organs are growing outside his body to develop as long as possible before he dies? Wouldn't the child actually suffer less if he were aborted at an earlier stage of development?

Respectfully the problem with this line of reasoning in my opinion is proving that the child suffers less when put to death quickly than it does in a slow progression. Typically abortion is through methods that cause a lot of pain in the living so why would they not cause pain to the unborn. Especially in light of ultrasounds and other imagining methods that show babies at very early stages in the womb recoiling, as those not in the womb do, to pain.

If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice?

So is it the child's pain being relieved or the pain of the parents? What of the born child with cancer do we have the right to put that child out of his or her pain sooner rather than let it drag on? They would after all suffer less if we just put them to sleep. It would be easier on the whole family in many ways would it not. If you follow the logic out to what you are suggesting this is where it most likely goes in my opinion.

Death is hard whether it is quick of slow. Disabilities are hard to process whether seen or unseen. It is just my opinion but this logic is more about relieving the pain of the those not about to die than it is about relieving the pain of those dying. Do we have the right to say to the dying that you can not have x amount of time because it hurts us too much to watch you live out the x amount of time? The only difference in my view of the child in the womb and the child out is one is seen and the other is not.

Just for the record I have children who have LKSv which left untreated can present as autism. I know the pain of watching a child suffer who can not speak or communicate and who feels immense pain due to processing sensory input. All of the above is my opinion and my view of where the logic posted may take us.

[Melinda in VT]

Respectfully the problem with this line of reasoning in my opinion is proving that the child suffers less when put to death quickly than it does in a slow progression. Typically abortion is through methods that cause a lot of pain in the living so why would they not cause pain to the unborn. Especially in light of ultrasounds and other imagining methods that show babies at very early stages in the womb recoiling, as those not in the womb do, to pain.

I agree there are problems. I have done some reading about fetuses' perception of pain, and I know there are some disagreements and controversies. I wish there were a more humane way to abort fetuses for medical reasons, but then that might encourage more abortions for frivolous reasons, and I don't want that.

So is it the child's pain being relieved or the pain of the parents? What of the born child with cancer do we have the right to put that child out of his or her pain sooner rather than let it drag on? They would after all suffer less if we just put them to sleep. It would be easier on the whole family in many ways would it not. If you follow the logic out to what you are suggesting this is where it most likely goes.

Yes, I understand the larger issues. On the one hand, I am not necessarily against euthanasia if it is the will of the patient. On the other hand, I cringe at the idea of people being pressured into it.

Death is hard whether it is quick of slow. Disabilities are hard to process whether seen or unseen. It is just my opinion but this logic is more about relieving the pain of the those not about to die than it is about relieving the pain of those dying. Do we have the right to say to the dying that you can not have x amount of time because it hurts us too much to watch you live out the x amount of time? The only difference in my view of the child in the womb and the child out is one is seen and the other is not.

Just for the record I have children who have LKSv which left untreated can present as autism. I know the pain of watching a child suffer who can not speak or communicate and who feels immense pain due to processing sensory input. All of the above is my opinion and my view of where such logic takes us.

Again, good points, and indicative of why I feel conflicted.

I am sorry for the pain you and your children have suffered.

[RebeccaC]

Again, good points, and indicative of why I feel conflicted.



:iagree: I too feel conflict about this when it come to a child that might not be viable. It has to be very very hard and that is probably an understatement.

We were blessed in that our son responded to medical treatment and he has no memory of the pain he felt. Watching children suffer is hard no matter where they are and my heart does go out to those who have to make hard choices I just don't think we know enough to justify all the choices we make. One choice the docs gave us for our son was to sign him over to the state and I was told by a doc that it would be good to forget I had ever had him. What the docs who told us to get rid of our son did not know was that there was a new medical treatment that would cure him. I know that some birth defects can not be cured at this time but we just do not know enough about what a preborn child feels or does not feel to make a choice about ending suffering in my opinion.

[nancypants]

Oh, I hope we are not arguing - I didn't think we were!

Sorry if I miscommunicated my meaning. I don't use "argument" as a negative connotation. I grew up in a house that sometimes argued for leisure so I didn't mean it in a bad way! :D Just meant that I wasn't going to enter the actual bumper sticker debate/conversation/argument/what have you. :tongue_smilie:

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, good! My family still argues regularly, LOL, but most others don't call debate or good conversation "argument" anymore, so I'm never quite sure......

Regena

[Lorna in the boonies]

Lorna, thank you for sharing your experience with your daughter. I don't think it came through in my original post, but I would never criticize anyone who chose to carry a child with a fatal diagnosis to term. And I understand what you mean about leaving time for God to work a miracle.

Blessings to you and yours.


Oh, Melinda, I didn't take it as a criticism! I apologize if it came across that way! I was just on my way out the door, so I was kind of in a hurry as I was writing it -- in addition to my usual "can't think straight, much less type straight, with 57 people yammering at me all at once, so will you people please be quiet for 10 seconds?' state of being. But I knew I was going to have to be gone for most of the day, and I knew I wanted to go ahead and respond to that. I just didn't have the time to read through it like I normally like to do in order to make sure that what it sounds like I'm saying, is really what I mean to be saying. (That doesn't make much sense, but I know what I mean!)

In any case, I didn't take it as a criticism. I was just trying to show that, even as a very pro-life person, there was a lot of considering to be done once I was in that position myself. It's not as cut and dry as someone might think it's going to be until one ends up there. That was the point I was attempting to make.:001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

I was just trying to show that, even as a very pro-life person, there was a lot of considering to be done once I was in that position myself. It's not as cut and dry as someone might think it's going to be until one ends up there. That was the point I was attempting to make.:001_smile:

I do agree that the feelings involved are never as cut n dried as we'd like for them to be, but the difference between life and death IS clear.
Once a child is aborted there's no going back.
There are no "what if's".
There are no second chances.
Any choices after that have been removed forever.

That's why I am still very pro-life, NOT dependent on how one feels.

i don't believe one's right to exist should be dependent on the emotional decisions of another.

[RebeccaC]

I do agree that the feelings involved are never as cut n dried as we'd like for them to be, but the difference between life and death IS clear.
Once a child is aborted there's no going back.
There are no "what if's".
There are no second chances.
Any choices after that have been removed forever.

That's why I am still very pro-life, NOT dependent on how one feels.

i don't believe one's right to exist should be dependent on the emotional decisions of another.


I agree with you on this Peek.


I am just adding this because sometimes I struggle with the blood that may or may not be on my hands from the Gulf War. I can not imagine the guilt that would surface, no matter how justified, when making the decision to kill ones own baby. My heart breaks for the women who were sold the idea that abortion is a quick fix for r*pe, inc*st, non viable and disabled babies. Not only do they have the r*pe, inc*st,....... to grieve and work through but added on to that is the grief and guilt of knowing that they killed their baby and the what ifs that will follow them all their lives. Abortion does not make problems go away it just adds another layer of something that needs to worked through and causes suffering for both mom and baby. I believe that there is nothing that God will not forgive and my heart goes out to all the folks who have been hurt by abortion.

[hana]

Yipes---I'm not even going there about the issues at hand. But, I do think it seems pretty un-Christian to proclaim who else can be a Christian.

[Donna T.]

Well, I have read all the previous posts and thought long and hard about this. First of all, I would not put a bumper sticker like that on my car. Just not my style. Do I find it offensive? No. I try super hard not to go around getting offended.

I only want to comment on the who is a Christian question. A Christian is someone who is being conformed into the image of Christ. We are being conformed. We aren't zapped into conformity. We are born again at a point in time. We are dead in our sins (because we have all inherited Adam's sinful nature) but when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ (that simply means accepting that He is God of very God, the son of the Father, the sacrificial Lamb that was slain to pay atonement for our sin, the fulfillment of the Law and all Prophecy), we are born again. We were dead. Then, we are alive. The old man, Adam, is dead. Our new selves are alive in Christ because His Life is given to us. A free gift. But, we are not fully conformed at that point. We have to willingly be conformed as we submit to His Holy Will and His Holy Word. Salvation is an act of God. Conformity is a matter of continued obedience to His Spirit through His Word.

So, do I believe a Christian can believe (passionately) in the rightness of the freedom to choose an abortion? Yes. Absolutely. A Christian can even HAVE an abortion themselves. But, as that Christian continues to submit to Her Savior and continues to allow Him (you have to allow Him) to effect her mind and her emotions, all of her, He will conform her into His image. And, certainly, He loves Life. He came that we might have Life. He did not come to bring death or a love of death or even a respect of death. He came to give us New Life. His Word forbids murder and He tells us that He is active in our lives even while we are in our mother's wombs. Jeremiah and Paul both testify to this fact. And, He loves little children. That is so clear in Scripture. It is not even something I will debate.

Romans 8:28 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(Please note here that I am not preaching Calvinism. The predestination here mentioned is not to salvation but to conformity).

Conformity is a sure thing! It is His promise to us. He will comform a Christian to His image.

Romans 12:1-2 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

There are going to be divisions among us. Not because this is God's perfect will for us, but because we are all at different places on our path to conformity. But, we can know His perfect will and we will know it more completely as we allow Him to renew our mind.

There are issues that I once thought very passionately about that I now think the total opposite about! I was a Christian then. I am a Christian now. I am learning and growing and being conformed. It saddens me that not everyone will bow the knee to Jesus willingly. If you do not willingly bow your knee to Him, you will die. I am sorry if that is divisive talk. It is divisive, but it comes forth because of genuine, deep love. In the end, anyone who does not bow the knee to him will perish. It won't matter what you believe about abortion. Your thoughts about abortion won't matter at all. What matters is if you are willingly to bow your knee to Christ and to allow Him to comform you to His image - and, that will involve Him changing your opinions about things.

OK - I know many of you will cry "foul". I've gone too far. I've been divisive. I'm sorry, this is Biblical Christianity. This is stating the truth of God's Word - your opinions do not matter. But, are you being conformed? Are you willing to allow Him to change your opinions?

That is what determines whether or not a person is a Christian. It's foolish to look at us and let that determine for you what Christ is like, because we are all in process.

Deuteronomy 30:15 - "See, I have set before them this day life and good, and death and evil".

Deuteronomy 30: 19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live".

[j.griff]

Wow, I have way more "issues" than I previously thought. I am a total non-conformist, LOL. ;)

[Donna T.]

Wow, I have way more "issues" than I previously thought. I am a total non-conformist, LOL. ;)


:lol: That is very funny! Believe it or not, I am a non-conformist, too. Actually, I often feel like God has brought me into His Kingdom while I'm all the while.................

:banghead:

banging my head against a wall!

It doesn't come naturally to anyone. None of us naturally want to die to ourselves; which is what He requires of us. We die so He can live through us. We crucify our flesh. But, that doesn't mean it's easy. And, to make matters even harder, other Christians expect us to be conformed to THEIR image! That is totally unBiblical.

[j.griff]

yeh, it's hard. I just try to love everyone, pretend everyone is Jesus, and think about how I'd treat him. Key word is try, LOL. And what's amazing to me, is that Christians are my least favorite group of people :( Lots of them seem to think it's their job to sculpt me into a Jesus statue.

[Janet in WA]

I just try to love everyone, pretend everyone is Jesus, and think about how I'd treat him. EXACTLY! And at one point, Jesus' mother was an unmarried teenaged girl who found herself pregnant in a culture where that was actually punishable by stoning. I wish that every pregnant woman considering an abortion would pretend that her baby is Jesus and think about how she'd treat him.

[StaceyinLA]

the last few days, but I have to throw my 2 cents in anytime abortion is in the topic.

I have to say that I do not agree with the statement on the sticker, because NO one has the right to judge who is or isn't a Christian.

HOWEVER, I don't really see how Christianity and being pro-choice can line up either. Abortion stops a beating heart - PERIOD! I just don't see that as being in line with a true Christian's beliefs. However, I don't feel I can judge their Christianity based on any one thing, no matter how gruesome I find it to be.

As far as being pro-life, I guess I can't call myself that based on someone's post I read above.

I am ANTI-abortion, 100%, without any doubt. I am pro-death penalty and I am supportive of wars when necessary. I abhor the killing of innocent people, but I do NOT remotely equate the death penalty with the killing of innocent people and I believe it is a just punishment for certain crimes. To me, there is no comparison in this and abortion.

I believe that a baby is entitled to a safe, loving environment in which to grow to be prepared for this world. I do NOT believe that the womb should become a battle ground where innocent lives are lost through the most brutal of tortures. I do NOT support a woman's right to CHOOSE to kill her unborn baby anymore than I support her having a CHOICE to murder her 2 week old.

The brutal truth of abortion and the disregard for human life has, IMO, contributed to the total disregard of life we see daily in our society. It is sickening to me and it is THE #1 reason I will support a political candidate. If they will not stand up for the most innocent of all humans in what should be the safest place of all, they are useless to me as a leader.

[Donna T.]

I want to share one more thing. Didn't intend to revisit this but it seems the Lord Jesus Christ wanted to show me something today. I work at a shelter. Today, a lady entered our shelter with three young children. She is a single mom. She has one child who is of a different race than her. This is not something that I ever discuss with our clients. It's not something that I ask about. But, she brought it up and she said, "I want to show you my beautiful son." She went on to tell me (again, I wasn't asking about this... it just came up) that she was violently raped by three men (one event) who were of a different race than her. She has no idea which one of them fathered her son and she has never seen any of them again. It was what we call a "stranger rape". Anyways, as she told me about this, tears began to pour down her face. Literally. Tears were flowing and she said, "You know, it was awful. It was really awful but God gave me a gift that day. God gave me my beautiful son." And, she went on to tell me about how this son adores her and how she has a special closeness with him that reminds her every day that God cares for her and He is always going to take care of her.

Ladies, it's like the Lord just smiled on me today. My heart is so full of His Mercy towards us. Christians, we have to make this issue about PEOPLE. It's about real live people. It's not about opinions and statistics. It's not about legality or morality. It's about people made in His image... fallen but fully capable of redemption. Let us really purpose in our hearts to love one another and to love those who don't understand our Lord.


Many blessings to all!