homework vs. afterschooling

[masterpiece]

Hi everyone,

Although I've snooped around here quite a bit, I'm new in writing on this forum, so I'd like to thank all of you for your comments, suggestions, and discussions, because many of them have been helpful to me.

My kids (5th and 3rd) have been in public school all along, although I've often been tempted to pull them out. The temptation is now at a peak. However, we aren't convinced yet and in the meantime I think I need to seriously reconsider afterschooling.

When the kids were younger and we decided against hs, I was convinced I would be supplementing. As time has gone on, though, it hasn't happened, mainly because of the kids' workload. They regularly have several hours of homework after arriving home at 5:30 or 6:30, depending on the day (the later days are due to one hour of extracurricular activities). It just seems like I would be cramming their schedules too much if I tried to supplement with extra help in different areas.

I'm thinking about afterschooling my own way and telling the teachers that they won't be doing any more homework. Has anybody tried that? I know that it would probably affect their grades, but that has never concerned me as much as knowing that they're learning. And to some extent they are, but I have no doubt that they could be doing way better in a different environment.

Any ideas? Thanks!

[Jann in TX]

Either commit to school and play by their rules (supplementing when you can) or homeschool.

I have one I homeschool and one that goes to PS--so I know too well about the HOURS of homework (most of it BUSY WORK in elementary).

If your child does not do the REQUIRED school work their grades will suffer--and they will 'pay' for it in other ways--the other students will know that little Johnny does not have his homework AGAIN... and your child may face penalties such as missing recess or special class activities... just the same as any other child who routinely 'forgets' their homework.

There are some cases (not really that rare) when the homework actually contains REAL TEACHING---imagine that! In our school system the only time the students work on basic Math facts or individual reading skills is at HOME--in their homework assignments.

"Afterschooling" is about finding time to supplement. It is not about thumbing your nose and doing things your own way after hours.

[Punks in Ontario]

I agree with Jann.

I'm sure some people can do effective after schooling, but my experience was that by the time homework was done, there was little energy and lots of resentment for any different work. I found with my dd that teachers were not receptive to other tracks than their own. Not really their fault, but with 25-30 kids to keep up with, they need everyone on the same page. Even if they aren't hostile, problems and resentments are likely to show up subtly with lower marks and discrimination.

It seems like you need to be on one track or the other. Hope you find the right path for you guys.

[LibrarianMom]

Depending on what time your kids go to school, some on this board have found success with before schooling. Mine get on the bus a bit before 8 though so before schooling doesn't work. I've tried to emphasize the fun factor and togetherness in afterschooling. Pick some great read-alouds, some fun projects (great for the weekends), and do games. I've found games are great for practicing basic skills. It is so tempting to try to cram an entire home schooling curriculum into afterschooling (I've tried) and it doesn't work. Pick the couple of things that are most important to you and do those.

I was excited that over break my dd asked why we weren't reading our history book (SOTW) anymore and indicated she missed it. :) So I think we'll be trying to add that back in.

[MBM]

When the kids were younger and we decided against hs, I was convinced I would be supplementing. As time has gone on, though, it hasn't happened, mainly because of the kids' workload. They regularly have several hours of homework after arriving home at 5:30 or 6:30, depending on the day (the later days are due to one hour of extracurricular activities). It just seems like I would be cramming their schedules too much if I tried to supplement with extra help in different areas.

I'm thinking about afterschooling my own way and telling the teachers that they won't be doing any more homework. Has anybody tried that? I know that it would probably affect their grades, but that has never concerned me as much as knowing that they're learning. And to some extent they are, but I have no doubt that they could be doing way better in a different environment.

Any ideas? Thanks!

You could try asking the teachers what they think of your plan. Some might be okay with it. (My son's school allows this to a degree.) I also agree that other kids might find this unfair even if your children get lower grades. The few kids who do this at my son's school are quiet about it.

What specifically do you dislike about the homework besides the amount? Content? Is it not knit together well (where most schools in my experience do an extremely poor job)?

If you want to stick with afterschooling, I've found ways to fit in material with my son's busy schedule. (He's in 7th.) We afterschool these subjects:

1. Grammar: Rod and Staff oral lessons and soon adding Michael Clay Thompson (MCT)

2. Vocabulary: Word Smart, soon MCT (school uses Sadlier-Oxford which I think is good, but I want to add more)

3. Literature: William and Mary's Utopia (love it!); Shakespeare

4. Classical Writing: my shortened version

5. Math: Art of Problem Solving online classes (these are fabulous!)

6. Latin: Wheelock's taught by my husband
(Btw, last night at our local public high school's "Academic Night" (cough, cough, misnomer; "Happy Platitudes Night" would be more apt) we were told by the department chair of Modern and Classical Languages that it's just not possible for a parent to teach Latin effectively. Oh, and she scoffed at the National Latin Exam, a big so-what to her. So keep that in mind. ;) LOL.)

We don't study all of these every day. Weekends, breaks and summer often involve home studies.

What has worked especially well is studying in small chunks. My son does so much better with shorter lessons -- 20" or less. For example, when he studies Latin on weekends, my husband will divide the lesson into two or sometimes three 20" lessons spread throughout the day. A new grammar lesson takes about 15" and then we do the problems orally throughout the week which takes about 5-10". Vocab is similar. We often read together as a family for about an hour in the living room before bedtime and then discuss the literature on weekends. No need to make things more complicated than they already are. :tongue_smilie:

Good luck with whatever you decide and feel free to ask more questions.

[lisabees]

I also agree with Jann. In our elementary school, there really is not much homework. Maybe 10-15 minutes worth (in addition to instrument practice). Now, it sure gets crazy as they get older, with travel sports and other commitments.

I have my 4th grader do math and spelling. He also spends almost every night doing Japanese because it's his love.

My 1st grade does phonics and math. We will also start Spanish next week.

Your kids are getting older. It will get harder and harder, as their load gets heavier. I would be very careful talking to the teachers and school. If you're enrolled, you do need to play by their rules. I tried asking for some flexibility at the end of last year, when ds13 was really struggling academically and falling apart emotionally, and their response was, "That's called homeschooling. Go to the district office and fill out the paperwork." I did!

Good luck. I know it can be difficult.

[talexand]

I did this a few years ago to some degree when my oldest was in first grade. But it wasn't me against the teacher, I approached her with this as a solution to the problem that my son wasn't being challenged in math. It was really a partnership between myself and the teacher. I asked if he could be excused from math hw so that I would have time to work with him with Singapore math at home. She knew she wasn't meeting his math needs and she was quite willing to go this course. I sent his workbook in every week or so so she could take a look at what he was working on. The next year his teacher agreed to the same setup. On hindsight I don't think the second grade teacher would have agreed to this except that the first grade teacher had already set the precedent and had only good things to say about it.

After second grade I decided we needed even more time for afterschooling and we went to part time homeschooling.

[Mama2Three]

You might want to check with your school district to see if they have a homework time guideline. For my school district, K-2 homework is not supposed to exceed 30 minutes. For 3+ elem, it goes up to an hour. Although this guideline is in place, my DS's teacher regularly gives work that would take him longer than 30 minutes. I've discussed with her, and she is fine with him doing what he can in the allotted time. That said, I do sometimes make him spend more time on it if I think that he is dawdling because I don't want him to think that he can slack and get out of work.

To make sure that we cover what I would like to, we do before-schooling. I can't imagine my high energy boy spending all day in school and then asking him to have more table time in addition to homework. It would be a battle. We leave the house at 7:35 to meet the bus, so it is a busy morning, especially with the baby to get out of the house, too (I have to walk DS to the stop). We routinely spend at least 15 minutes on my work for him. Right now we are working on ETC 7, WWE 1 (wish it were 2 but this was pushed back too often due to time constraints), and SM 2a. Obviously, I can't do everything every day, but working for even 15 minutes in the morning, and maybe a little extra on Saturdays has given him such a better foundation than he would have otherwise. He is ahead of all the kids in his class in math, and his teacher gives him a little extra work when he gets done with math first. For a child who has an IEP because of sensory/attention issues, that is such a huge confidence builder.

OK, I went off on a tangent here, but the point I was trying to make is that if you think that there is something that your child needs, making time for it however you need to, can make a huge difference. Slow and steady wins the race in our home. :)

[OrganicAnn]

Your kids are involved in extracurricular activities that take from 3ish to 5:30 or 6:30? That's what is taking up your time. To me, it looks like you've chosen the extracurricular over afterschooling. Which is fine if that is your priorities. I agree with everyone who says don't tell the school that you aren't going to be doing their homework.

[masterpiece]

for all your suggestions. They're really helpful to me and have given me a lot to think about. The reasons many of you give for not recommending it are the same reasons I haven't even tried until now, so believe me, I understand what you're saying :001_smile:.

To clarify, they are only in extracurriculars one hour, two days a week, with sports activities. The school day gets out at 5:00 and they get home around 5:30 the days they don't have sports. In-school PE is just one day a week; if it were more often I'd probably drop this.

I hadn't thought about trying to find out if there are homework time guidelines. I'll have to try that. However, to date, 3rd and 4th grades have been the worst, with between 2 and 5 hours practically every night. They aren't the fastest kids in the world, but they don't spend that time dawdling, either, because I don't let them (they would if they could :001_smile:). Already this year my 3rd grader has had to come home, eat, work all the way until bedtime, and get up early the next morning to finish off what wasn't done. Normally it's not that bad, but it happened several times to the older one last year and the year before, too.

This year, 5th grade hasn't been nearly as bad so far on a day-to-day basis. It's the same kinds of assignments, but since he's older, it gets done in much less time. However, there are also some big projects and hard tests that really need a lot of time preparation time.

We have a very good relationship with the teachers and principal at school, and I have been very involved with them. If I end up approaching them for something like this it would definitely be as a cooperative effort rather than an us/them approach, and maybe only for certain kinds of assignments. I'm glad to know that in a few cases it has actually worked, even if it might not work out for me :001_smile:. And maybe we'll be able to come up with a time guideline that would be satisfactory to the teacher (no more than two hours per night, for example).

It's also good to realize that small chunks of time can be really helpful. It's tempting for me to want to do too much, and since that is obviously impossible, I tend to chuck the whole idea. But I think many evenings I could do things with the 5th grader, and in the mornings, wake up my early-bird 3rd grader for a bit of supplementation (although, of course, getting up earlier means going to bed earlier, which means maybe not finishing up the other homework...we shall see), and maybe we'll see some progress.

Thanks again for all your input. Keep up the good work!

[Sara R]

Holy cow! They get out of school at 5? What time do they start? Are they in an after school program? Do they go 5 days a week?

[EmilyK]

A few disjointed thoughts:

-- that sounds like too much homework. Here the guidelines are 10 minutes per grade (on weeknights), but my 5th grader doesn't have 50 minutes (unless you count when he's goofing around). They're supposed to read 20 to 30 mins per night. Here they encourage you to tell the teacher if it is turning in to more than that and they'll reduce the load.

--not sure how long your kids are in school. Mine are there 8:35 to 3 right now (grades 2 and 5) and do music, art, etc as afterschool activities (but I consider that part of afterschooling). If they weren't done til 5 and had 2 hours of homework I wouldn't expect more of them (just for me, not telling you what to do).

--our afterschooling is very relaxed. While I'd love to do serious curriculum work, to be honest, it is more library books, DVDs, recording educational shows, books on tape, read alouds before bed, math games, going to museums and music performances together etc. So it is a little more like unschooling -- we follow their passions but I have a lot of educational stuff around to do for fun. And they learn a ton from it.

--my younger son's class is now explicitly offering choice in homework -- a menu of stuff goes home and you can make your own choices too. This was meant as a response to TAG lack of challenge but it has been great for us.

Good luck -- any chance you can move to a different school?

[OrganicAnn]

They are in school from 8 to 5? Or they are in school from 8 to 3 and in an afterschool program till 5? I've never heard of school till 5. Are you in the US or another country.

[Carmen_and_Company]

I don't afterschool additional subjects for dd, Storm, as it's just too much on top of her heavy schoolwork load. I'm lucky that dd attends a wonderful classical school based on TWTM, and utilizes many of the same materials as we did while homeschooling. So, I know exactly what dd is working on and have resources to assist her when needed.

My ds youngest attends a great school, too, but we do afterschool 20 minutes a day in Latin & history.

[masterpiece]

...that this really is a crazy schedule. We're in western Europe. School goes from 9 to 1 and from 3 to 5, Monday to Friday. For obvious reasons, most families leave their kids at school for the midday (main) meal and a long recess. There is also after-school care provided in the mornings from 7:30 to 9 and from 5 to 6 in the afternoons. There are actually a few kids who are in school from 7:30am to 6pm every day.

But not mine, since I figure that six hours is plenty, plus all the going and coming time (we walk, and it takes 15 minutes to get there and normally between twenty and thirty minutes to come home because we're more relaxed and it's hard to hurry anyone along).

So, at the "noon" hour we have a bit over an hour at home, so there is a bit of down time there, which I sometimes try to use for music lessons. The evenings are really full with all the homework. I've been told by my fifth-grader's teacher that they'll soon be sending lots more homework for him, too. :glare:

As I'm re-realizing, there isn't room for anything more here, since we (the kids, I should say) need the weekends for relaxing and destressing. We have used the summers for learning, but all fun and as low-key as possible. So I'm back to thinking seriously about homeschooling.

Thanks for all your comments!

[Mabelen]

...that this really is a crazy schedule. We're in western Europe. School goes from 9 to 1 and from 3 to 5, Monday to Friday. For obvious reasons, most families leave their kids at school for the midday (main) meal and a long recess. There is also after-school care provided in the mornings from 7:30 to 9 and from 5 to 6 in the afternoons. There are actually a few kids who are in school from 7:30am to 6pm every day.

But not mine, since I figure that six hours is plenty, plus all the going and coming time (we walk, and it takes 15 minutes to get there and normally between twenty and thirty minutes to come home because we're more relaxed and it's hard to hurry anyone along).

So, at the "noon" hour we have a bit over an hour at home, so there is a bit of down time there, which I sometimes try to use for music lessons. The evenings are really full with all the homework. I've been told by my fifth-grader's teacher that they'll soon be sending lots more homework for him, too. :glare:

As I'm re-realizing, there isn't room for anything more here, since we (the kids, I should say) need the weekends for relaxing and destressing. We have used the summers for learning, but all fun and as low-key as possible. So I'm back to thinking seriously about homeschooling.

Thanks for all your comments!

That's the schedule I grew up with and I don't recall having time afterschool other than for snack, homework and dinner. bath and bed. I think the American/UK school hours are much more conducive to afterschooling. Good luck with your decision!