Oy vey. Adolescent stuff. Need some quick feedback...

[Colleen]

This has to do with my oldest, who's edging toward 13 (in June). He's a fine, responsible young man. His piano teacher expresses amazement at his maturity; his soccer coach appreciates his character and considers him a good example for the rest of the team. And most of the time at home, he's respectful, but now and then...grrr...:sad: He's at a stage wherein he polices his younger brothers, gets irritated when they don't comply, retaliates by acting like an ass, and so on. The past couple of mornings he's had some behavior glitches and bad attitude. When his blood starts to boil, I have him go outside and run ten times around the perimeter of the house to work off some steam. I actually think it's pretty sweet as far as discipline goes; get some fresh air and exercise. (And ten times around this house doesn't take long, btw.)

So yesterday, he first told me he wasn't going to do it. I told him his choice was to do it or have extra work. He went outside, started ambling around the house, and had to be told to get a move on. He came inside after a couple of minutes and I said he couldn't have done ten laps. He replied, "I did four and I'm finished." "So you want extra work?" He went back out and finished up.

Cut to this morning. He repeated the same kind of crap as yesterday morning. After putting a stop to it, correcting him, etc he made it quite clear he was unhappy. I said again that he needed to take his attitude outside and do the laps. He flat out said no, he wasn't going to do it. I told him, "That's your choice. But if you choose to directly defy me, you'll lose privileges." He just sat there and glared at me. I said, "If I were you, I'd get out there; otherwise you lose soccer practice this afternoon." He basically yelled that he wasn't going to, at which point I said he just lost going to practice. He then kept up the attitude and I said he was close to now losing a 4-H activity this Saturday. He finally went out and did the laps, but as I said, this was after he'd already been told he lost the soccer practice.

I am torn now. I've argued here before that I typically don't keep my boys from a team practice as a means of discipline. With my oldest two, soccer is really all that speaks to them, though. And while I wouldn't routinely have them miss a practice, I felt his direct defiance and disrespect warranted...something. I just wasn't sure what. His soccer coach has a son the same age, on the same team, and I know she'd be perfectly understanding if he misses the practice.

I admittedly feel bad for him. He loves soccer and its his chance to be with his friends. But I also hate to reneg on what I said earlier. I can't put up with that kind of junk; it disrupts everyone. I just can't decide...What would you do?

[Joanne]

I have a basically good but decidedly human nearly 13 year old male.

I can tell you that I try not to impose punishment that involves others, especially sports situations. The team relies on all players to function best and I think it's important to be there for that. I also feel it's important to have *appropriate* strength, body and energy outlets. Removing them quickly becomes counter productive.

[Mrs. H.]

I disagree, but only depending on the coach. I would keep him home from a practice, then let him tell the coach it was for flat out defiance and disrespect of his mother, but only if the coach would take the opportunity to tell him that the behavior was unacceptable, and he should be respectful at all times.

He's testing the waters as a man, and he thinks by dominating the household (including you), it will make him a man. Does his father have anything to say about this, btw? I know my dh doesn't tolerate disrespect towards me even though our children are young, and he would have some serious words with a teen boy if we were having this situation.

Basically, this is a shut-down situation. It doesn't matter if he gets to spend time with his friends, is great at soccer, and is considered the role model of the team. He's openly defying you, NOT being a great role model to his brothers, and disrupting the peace and tranquility of your home. Time for a sit-down with you, him and Dad.

*going to go put on my flame retardent suit now*

[Rhondabee]

is there any way you could revise your punishment to that?

That way, he can see you modeling how to handle talking rationally while you're upset, how to come back and "redo" a moment if that makes sense.

Of course, if he refused to do the extra work...well....I don't know. I guess I'd have to have a talk with my dh there as "judge" - let him hear both sides and then whatever he deemed an acceptable punishment would be it.

(((Colleen)))

[Old Dominion Heather]

I'll agree with Mrs. H... I think one practice isn't going to kill him or his team and he will know that you mean business...

Much of what you can use as "consequences" has to do with how much support you have. If his dad will back you up, fine, but otherwise it will have to be just stuff that you can control.

You didn't tell him that he has to sit down for the rest of the day, he lost the favor of you driving him when he was obnoxious. I would just tell him that you don't drive obnoxious people anywhere. IMNSHO, if you can't be nice to your family first, you don't get to go be nice to other people.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Are you able to figure out a reason for this behavior? If you can uncover the root cause of his angst, it would likely lead towards appropriate consequences. I know this is not an easy thing. I also know that mine have gotten to be royal stinkers and then blamo they are sick. A few days before it rears its ugly head, they are total pills.

Just one example. Maybe there is a real reason behind his behavior. That's what is hard to find but most beneficial to deal with the issue.

Hope you get it figured out!

[FlockOfSillies]

I'm with Mrs. H. Consider this a one-time punishment, but do not back down. He's counting on you to wimp out. If you give in now, it'll only get worse.

[PariSarah]

(I have a strict policy about that--unless what I said/did was really wrong, I keep to what I say. If it merely falls into "maybe not the best choice" territory, he serves his punishment and we might have a conversation about it after. "I don't like how that played out. How do you think we both could do better?") But I'd be looking for better ways of dealing with the situation in the future.

I don't have a problem with losing sports practice as a consequence of direct defiance, and I wouldn't feel bad about having imposed that as a consequence if I were in your shoes.

What I would feel uneasy about is the fact that I was getting all entangled in a game of oneupsmanship. Who's going to win? He's going to get more belligerent to see if I'll take away more privileges; I take them away and he gets belligerent about that; and further on it goes.

I'm becoming aware that ds is getting old enough that I'm going to have to come up with new tools in my belt. Taking away privileges has still got to be there. But it seems like something else has to be there, too. Something that touches his heart--something that shepherds him past "Don't invoke negative consequences" through "I can be my own person without being disrespectful to my mother" all the way to "I'm going to do what's right even when it hurts."

I don't know what some of those tools might be. They're probably related to the "How do you connect with your boys" thread before, though.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

I would follow through in this instance because the last thing you want to do is lose face with a teenage boy. He's testing your will and giving in on something like this will show weakness. From here forward, don't pop off about soccer practice. Have some other consequences in your back pocket.

Maybe he doesn't know how terrific you think he is most of the time? You strike me as the type that shrinks from compliments, and sometimes may not understand how others need positive strokes more than you do. Could that be contributing?

Barb

[Laura in VA]

It may just be what he needs to realize you mean what you say.

[Doran]

Eleven, twelve, thirteen - these are the ages that I think we have to offer them a bit more space, a bit more grace. Making him run isn't a bad thing. But, it may seem childish to him at this point. And taking away his outlet for physical exertion is probably counter productive in the end.

Both my dd's seem to have an overwhelming desire to just be pissy at times right now (one is eleven, the other thirteen). Talking with them about it afterwards, they describe that they don't even know why they are so unhappy, so defiant. It just comes over them. In the middle of it all, our "parental controls" just add fuel to their fire. I'm finding that the best way to handle these flare ups is to simply require that the kid take a break, and to explain that they do not have the right to impose their negativity on the rest of the family. I don't tell them what to do with the break time, but I tell them they must leave the space we are both in. They can go to their room, go outside and take a walk, stare at the basement wall. But, I make it clear that I do not want to watch them process their anger (it just makes us both angrier). This, in turn, means they are not present to take out their anger on anyone else.

Obviously, you can't let him turn this into a manipulative thing -- and maybe boys need a firmer hand than girls. But, I would just suggest that you give him a bit more of a chance to get himself under control in his own way rather than imposing your method of anger management upon him. Edited to add: For today, I'd stick with the punishment you gave him. Then, I'd talk with him about it honestly later on and define the "rules" for next time -- whatever you decide they are.

Hope this helps a little.

Doran

[Brigitte]

I'm with Mrs. H. He lost the priviledge of going to practice. If you back down on that or change the punishment, he won't take your threats seriously in the future. Missing one practice is not going to do anyone any harm. Of course, in the future, you might choose something else to take away if you feel strongly about not missing practice. I also agree with Mrs. H. that a sit down chat with dh and ds, perhaps during what would have been practice time, is probably in order. Yes, I know this kind of behavior it typical for boys this age (I live on the campus of a boarding school, after all), but that does not mean they should not be held accountable for it.

Just my .02.

[sleepy]

You warned him, he knew what he was risking.

[Colleen]

If he misses the practice, he will be responsible for explaining that to the coach; I'm with you there.

Does his father have anything to say about this, btw? I know my dh doesn't tolerate disrespect towards me even though our children are young, and he would have some serious words with a teen boy if we were having this situation.

For that you can be grateful. Suffice it to say my husband doesn't get involved; he was standing there the whole time and said nothing.

Thanks for your input.

[PariSarah]

. . . they don't even know why they are so unhappy, so defiant. It just comes over them. In the middle of it all, our "parental controls" just add fuel to their fire.

It wasn't a discipline issue--it was science. (Go figure!)

He was doing a science experiment, and he know what the results were "supposed to be," so every time he made an observation, he observed what he knew was supposed to happen, rather than what happened. I got really annoyed, and when he wrote up the final observation, which was so thoroughly off the mark that it was laughable, I testily pointed out how ridiculous he was being.

Great move, Mom.

He just got more and more insistent that, no, he was TOTALLY right, while I was more and more insistent that he change his work, until I realized that I wasn't doing him any favors. Out of the blue, my annoyance vanished and I tried to actually teach and guide him instead of just correct him. I wiped my attitude clean, and asked, as if I were asking about the weather, "Hey, have you ever heard of double blind studies?" And I started talking about how "this is what real scientists do," and "it's not because they're bad people, it's just because that's the human tendency," and then I rambled on about how "I wonder if there would be any way to run this experiment like a double blind study" and all of a sudden he was focused on doing good science instead of insisting that he was right.

I've been thinking about it all yesterday and today, b/c it seems like there's a parenting lesson in there, but I can't quite pin it down. Or maybe I don't want to.

I liked the "Basic Cause and Effect" years. They were easy. I'm so not up for adolescence.

[Colleen]

Maybe he doesn't know how terrific you think he is most of the time? You strike me as the type that shrinks from compliments, and sometimes may not understand how others need positive strokes more than you do. Could that be contributing?

Hmmm, I wouldn't say I shrink from compliments; maybe so. I definitely do ladle them out to my boys, though. Not gushing over them, but they get a lot of hugs and appropriate praise.

[Jenny in Atl]

I don't have boys (12 year-old dd :tongue_smilie:)
No advice but I do understand... they are out to kill us, right?

[Anne/Ankara]

Frankly, I would handle it as follows-- since this is a good kid who is usually respectful and obedient, I would have a sit down conversation with him and make up. Find out why he's acting the way he does, repeat why you can't have that kind of trouble interrupting school time, ask him what he wants to do to stop it from happening. Then point to his past successes, and let him know you're very proud of him for a number of things.

Hopefully, if the conversation goes well, then you can have him come up with an appropriate consequence, and let him go to soccer practice. Lesson learned.

[Doran]

) ... they are out to kill us, right?


Not to kill us, exactly. Just to make doubly certain that we're more than ready to usher them out the door when they come of age! It's all part of the process. ;)

Doran

[PrairieAir]

I think you really have to stick to what you said and make him skip the practice. If not, he will push it with you even more the next time. However, I'd try to think up some alternative consequences to use the next time it happens. It seems you grabbed at soccer practice because that was all that came to mind in the heat of the moment. Thinking ahead may help you avoid that. Missing one practice will not hurt him or the team, but it will help him see you mean business. I wouldn't use that as a punishment in the future for the reasons you said you wish you could go back on it this time.

[Old Dominion Heather]

Suffice it to say my husband doesn't get involved; he was standing there the whole time and said nothing.

Since this is the case, I really think you have to stand by what you said.

I'm sorry. You are in a tough situation. Could you get ds alone for a talk and see if he has had a change of attitude/heart? If he is ready to discuss and acknowledge his own behavior and apologize, then I think you might have grounds for easing up on him. Maybe.

:grouphug:

[Colleen]

I don't think there's a "reason" per se for it other than the fact that he's growing up, and the transition isn't always smooth. That and the fact that he gets frustrated, at times, working around his younger brothers ~ they're all at the kitchen table for written work. Trouble is, the only other place for him to work is in his room, at his desk. And when he does that, he spends twice as long doing half the work. So one conversation I plan to have with him will revolve around that...

[Faithr]

Well, I have an almost 13 year old boy (I also have an older son who's 15 and a dd who's 17) and he's gone into a very moody stage. I think lots of this is hormone related. To help me sympathize with having to live with such irritating behavior I remember how moody and irrational I can get when my hormones are in flux. My older boy got really spacey and reclusive during this same stage. So I wouldn't take some bad attitude personally.

I think I would try to talk to him over something that would bond you. I'd tell him that you feel badly about him missing practice and that also you don't want to punish the team for his bad mood. But then I'd come up with some other consequence.

Also I wouldn't turn every act of defiance into a confrontation. Instead of lowering the boom and making him run laps, say in a puzzled, hurt kind of voice, "Why not, honey?" Or something like that. Not everything has to blow up. Maybe give him a choice. Say, something like, 'well, if you don't feel like it right now can you do later?' This shows you respect his feelings. You'd be surprised how being gentle instead of authoritarian can get you more! You know you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!

Imho, kids are miserable enough in adolescence and they need to see their parents as not the enemy who is always punishing but their mentor who they can turn to when they feel out of sorts but don't know why. I know of so many parents who have driven away their kids during the teens years by being terrified of defiance. And the more terrified they get, the more the teens rebel. I've seen it over and over again. It is much wiser to switch to a more trusting, intimate give and take; lots of genuine discussions (not lectures), laughing together, talking things out, giving the benefit of the doubt, being patient, letting go of little hurts, sometimes biting one's tongue (especially hard for me) and just letting things be for a while.

Not that you give up your authority or anything. You don't want to turn into a doormat! You're still the mom! But now you're a mom of an emerging adult (though it take years) so you have to switch gears a little bit. Just let patience, gentleness, kindness be the foremost in your interactions. I know easier said than done! I'm a work in progress, but I have to brag and say I have the world's best teenagers, with all their imperfections and we are close where I have seen family after family go into crisis mode because the parents were just too overbearing.

Sorry if this sounds like a lecture. I'm really lightheaded at the moment . . . . Don't mean to offend or anything.

[Colleen]

Thanks for your good advice, Faith. I didn't mean to imply that every act of defiance turns into a confrontation, a blow up. It doesn't. I'm not handing out punishments left and right; actually, I'm rarely disciplining in an obvious way because it just isn't called for very often around here. Just shepherding, for the most part. But when that kind of direct defiance rears its head, I do think it has be acknowledged, kwim?

[Joanne]

I'm with Mrs. H. Consider this a one-time punishment, but do not back down. He's counting on you to wimp out. If you give in now, it'll only get worse.

*shrug* I was not recommending doing nothing. I was simply offering reasons to not use the "no practice" as the consequence.

I'm the wife of a coach. It would be a disaster, irresponsible and rude if parents took team practice away as discipline strategy. Practicing as a team has merit; it's not all about individual drills and skill building.

I'd impose other consequences, but I stand firm that I do not remove team based practices because then my son's misbehavior affects other kids and adults.

[JuJuBee]

I see two issues here. First is what to do about this instance. IMHO, you said no practice, no practice may not be ideal, but it's not gonna kill him or anyone else, so no practice it is.

Second is what to do from here, and I wish I knew definitively. I do have a 13.5 y/o and so we've been there to some degree. It seems to come and go -- sometimes he's absolutely amazing, reliable, considerate, even. Other times, he's a complete bonehead.

I think at this age the 'why' of it is sometimes just that they are teenagers, they are hormonal, and they just don't think like adults yet.

I think at this age, boys are having a hard time knowing how to grow into their roles as men, and the first thing they feel compelled to do is not be "Mama's boy" anymore. That comes out in appropriate ways and inappropriate ways. They still have to be respectful, of course. But some of it is part of that growing process.

Finally, if your husband stands by while your son treats you disrespectfully, I suggest you have a serious conversation with him (your husband) about it. I would find that completely unacceptable. Your son will take his biggest cues about how to treat women (especially you and his future wife) from his father, and if your husband demands that he treat you with respect, that will probably go a lot farther than about anything you can do.

[Colleen]

I don't have time right now to do more than skim the replies ~ and I need to decide pretty soon what I'm doing about this afternoon's practice. But I'm also thinking about this in the broader context. I do agree with Sarah in that imposing negative consequences should not be the only tool in the tool belt. In nearly 13 years of parenting, I have rarely if ever taken away privileges because quite honestly, I'm not often faced with the need to do so. But when there's real disrespect and defiance like my son showed me today, I want to deal with that ~ on a variety of levels, of course. I do plan to talk with him, to discuss our actions and reactions and so on.

But at times, I think "real" consequences are in order. I am just honestly at a loss as to what those consequences should be. It's easier when they're younger, because I almost always make the consequence fit the "crime". If a child colors on the wall, for example, I'd make them help clean it off and, the next time they want to color, remind them that they abused that privilege before. That sort of thing. But it's harder now to relate the discipline to the behavior. And I also don't have a whole lot I can "take away", so to speak. My guys lead pretty simple lives, and I mean that in a good way.

All of which is to say, what sort of consequence would you impose for this kind of behavior?

[Peek a Boo]

another plug for skip practice, but i think you need to shake up the consequences a bit. If they stop learning from them, time to move on, lol.

would Hans help you compile a list of chores/physical impositions that you can pull from? Or maybe we can help :-)

Be Calm. give the ticket for defiant speeding, but don't flip out too badly.
Think like a cop!


and good luck --I'm going thru the exact same thing w/ my guy --i could feel the emotion ;)

I've found that I need to give my guy more fun things to do AHEAD of time: more responsibility. Keep them too busy to be defiant.....

[Joanne]

All of which is to say, what sort of consequence would you impose for this kind of behavior?

It's an issue of disrespect and a challenge to your role vs. his role in the family.

As such, I'd impose something that was an act *of respect*. You can't command respect, or manufacture a feeling. But you can solicit compliance for respectful behavior. Have him do something that blesses you and/or the family.

Or, remove something "else". Along with age related privileges comes the responsibility of handling our words, bodies and attitudes appropriately. He's failed at that in this circumstance. That being the case, removing an age related privilege will communicate "you failed to live up to the responsibility that is tied to this" and therefore you remove the privilege.

[Scarlett]

I am in the camp of sticking to what you said would be the consequence. If you don't he will not believe you the next time. Especially since it appears dh is not backing you up.

I can see the point of not making that a regular consequence...so think up something better for next time. For now though, for today, no practice.

Disclaimer: I have only an 8 year old...so what do I know.

[Faithr]

I think it has to be acknowledged for sure, but I don't know if that acknowledgement necessarily means punishment. It can escalate that way. You say: do so and so and he says: no! So you say: okay I'm going to do this now! And he says so what! And you say, well now you're really in trouble, I'm gonna do so and so! See what I mean? It becomes who blinks first. Not the ideal relationship between those that love one another. I remember trying this same tactic with my oldest now 17 and it kept escalating and my dh finally joked that the only thing left was the death penalty!

But I didn't mean to imply that you were dishing out punishments right and left. I probably had kind of a knee jerk reaction because my teens have about 5 friends going through terrible times. One even spent the week with a friend because she and her mother are at each others throats so much. And it can start off like this. But it definitely doesn't have to go like that. Just respect, benefit of the doubt, patience, etc need to be the order of the day, imvvho! (being so far from perfect myself!).

[Kelli in TN]

and I will admit that I am terrible at this myself.

But when I cannot be swayed we make more progress in the battle against bad attitudes.

You said "no practice IF" and he decided the "IF" was important enough to him to lose practice. I would say he grounded himself from practice with that choice.

[Joanne]

I don't understand the fear. In the context of a usually consistent mom who does not ignore behavior, why the reluctance to revisit a decision and make a change if necessary?

I remember a couple of times my parents *knew* they had made a mistake in consequences issued but the following through because "consistency" was an adhered to parenting princple. I didn't "learn more" or "better." I thought it was stupid that they followed through on something that needed to be changed.

In a healthy situation, a child is not going to suffer, become manipulative, or try to get away with it next time if a reasonable parent says:

"Hey, dude, I've been thinking about this. Not allowing you to go to practice was not a well thought out consequence. Your behavior was not acceptable, and I will impose "X" consequence instead. But I've changed my mind about what I first said because __________."

Or even:

"Hey, dude. I've been thinking. While what you did was not ok. But my reaction was over the top. What I said or the way I said it was not ok."

I think it's not only acceptable to change, amend or even remove consequences upon further review, I think that it's appropriate. We are not going to hit the mark for every parenting event. It's much more authentic and productive to be able to revisit the issue with wisdom, intelligence and even humility.

[Mama Bear]

[COLOR="Navy"]Suffice it to say my husband doesn't get involved; he was standing there the whole time and said nothing.

COLOR]

I'm going to skip over your question for a moment to go out on a limb and suggest that this is part of why he was being openly defiant: he's testing the waters with "grown-up" male behavior. He's giving to you what he senses is already "approved of" -- be it tacitly, implicitly or something in between. I think, in my not so humble opinion :D, that this is the place where you say privately to Hans, "We have these beautiful kids to escort in adulthood, hopefully equipping them with skills far beyond what we have, things no one ever thought to imbue us with. To that end, I want to tell you, in case you didn't know, that I would never, for a split second, under any circumstances, allow our eldest to show you the same attitude/disrespect that he showed me this morning. I value you too highly* and this would dictate my actions in this and many other situations."

(*This part is about disarming a passive-aggressive narcissist. I'm not necessarily suggesting this applies to your dh, but I have some personal experience with such personalities and they're "easily" dealt with by taking away the perceived "substance" for the attitude a PAN tries to pitch -- such a person is miserable but doesn't know how not to be. Interactions with healthier persons often feel threatening because the healthier person is obviously struggling less with feeling insufficient, therefore reinforcing that the PAN is "obviously" insufficient, etc. It's a negative feedback loop, ad nauseum.)

I would take this approach because as much as your question was about your eldest missing practice, I'm quite sure you know this is only the tip of the iceberg. Your kind, competent, very responsible young man needs to have those qualities reinforced in a quiet conversation, apart from the stress of the moment of rebellion (I'm sure you know this), but as he's wrestling his own Very Big Emotions, he needs his parents as a united front. Unlikely? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

IME, your chances of success in handling these situations goes through the roof if you've got your dh "on your side" -- and whether you think so or not, you have a lot more influence there than your recent experience might suggest.

A side note: Should you ever have to put up with this kind of nonsense? NO. Should you ever have to wrestle difficult personalities? NO. Does the truth of those last two statements change the fact that figuring out how best to handle what is will benefit everyone? No. But being right sure isn't worth much when one is striving for this kind of success. Ask me how I know.

And about missing practice? Boy, I don't know. If this one miss will allow him the experience of having a respected coach back you up and will genuinely affect his future behavior, maybe. But if he's depressed/worried about his family and is acting out and this just proves to him that the world is falling in, no.

Sigh. I hope any of the above makes sense. My eldest's bday is very near Jan's and we're staring down the very same barrel(s). The balance of caretaking a fragile personality whilst maintaining behavioral standards without backup from the same gender parent is draining. It feels bad. But there are things that can make it better and I hope some of the above offers you a smidge of encouragement in that, even if the particulars in no way apply to you and yours.

:grouphug:

PS -- this kind of thing really has been helped here by the Family Mission Statement tapes. Or at least it's making me feel better about it all. :D

[Mama Bear]

In a healthy situation, a child is not going to suffer, become manipulative, or try to get away with it next time if a reasonable parent says:

"Hey, dude, I've been thinking about this. Not allowing you to go to practice was not a well thought out consequence. Your behavior was not acceptable, and I will impose "X" consequence instead. But I've changed my mind about what I first said because __________."

Or even:

"Hey, dude. I've been thinking. While what you did was not ok. But my reaction was over the top. What I said or the way I said it was not ok."

I think it's not only acceptable to change, amend or even remove consequences upon further review, I think that it's appropriate. We are not going to hit the mark for every parenting event. It's much more authentic and productive to be able to revisit the issue with wisdom, intelligence and even humility.


Nicely put.

[Colleen]

I am not necessarily afraid my son is going to "take advantage" of me if I change my mind this time around. But I also can not honestly say that my reaction was over the top or wrong, so I wouldn't say that to him. I would consider allowing him to go primarily because I believe in a "show up if you're part of the team" philosophy, but I would want to impose another consequence. I am just not sure what that consequence could be...

[Mama Bear]

[QUOTE=Colleen;116690All of which is to say, what sort of consequence would you impose for this kind of behavior?[/QUOTE]

I think we're transitioning into a place of more words, less actions. Because this is so rare and he shows you consistently that he's a great kid, he has to be feeling awful about this.

My second born had a math test a few weeks ago. She was so ticked off about it (!?) that she wrote things like "NO!" and "This is stupid!" after every answer, all over the paper. I was rather taken aback when I went to grade it, but gave her her score and when handing it back to her to file away said, very quietly, "It's important for you to know that if someone else was grading this, you'd have a lot of trouble and perhaps even a reduced grade over the way you did this. Next time, I'll reduce your grade." She very unhappily put the test in her book and went about the rest of her schoolwork. The next day when we sat down to do math, the test fell out of the book. I was considering what to say about her not having filed it away as asked when she, blushing, chuckled, and said, "Boy that was sure a silly waste of energy, wasn't it?"

I decided to let it go --perhaps it was the hand of God that we had an opportunity to revisit it when we were both less verklempt over the moment.

So... All that to say that perhaps no consequence as such is needed. Perhaps the opportunity to engage more with explanations of emotions, how to handle such things, really connecting in that way is the only thing he really needs.

I'm on the verge of collapse today -- Q slept fitfully last night and finally was out of my arms around 6am. So pardon me if my inertia here at the screen has overstepped the bounds of good sense and has deteriorated into rambling. I'm afraid I wouldn't know it at this point. :glare::001_huh:

No good smiley for exhausted mommies.......

[Elaine]

I'm with Mrs. H. Consider this a one-time punishment, but do not back down. He's counting on you to wimp out. If you give in now, it'll only get worse.

Word.:iagree:

[Faithr]

Joanne, I agree completely. A child isn't a dog that you train only by behavior management so that you MUST ALWAYS be right and consistent or else you'll have a monster on your hands. They are human beings trying to grow into adulthood and life is very complicated! You can talk to them and reason and cajole and share, etc. You can actually explain things to a child and that makes them feel respected and included. And they see you striving to be fair and just and compassionate, not rigid and controlling when you do this. Even if you do have to give a consequence for some naughty act on their part (and you definitely do have to do this at times, imo), at least they'll understand you were trying to have their best interest at heart, instead of just feeling stomped on. The common cry among adolescences is "you don't understand' or 'you never listen to me.' or 'you never let me do what I want to do.' I really think so many parents, parent from fear. They do think, well if I don't follow through here, he'll just push further. That's parenting out of fearful assumptions instead of trying to really connect with the child and work with them.

Btw, I could see my dh standing by and not reacting. But it is just his personality style. He tries to diffuse things by either ignoring or joking about them. Sometimes when I take over a situation when he is there and I am handling it in a way he would not (especially if I'm getting heated), he just shuts up and let's me handle it and then we deal with it later on our own. I'm just throwing that in because I don't think the fact that the dh didn't intervene as necessarily dysfunctional. Some parents don't see it as an us vs. them situation.

Poor Colleen, you are probably hearing more than you wanted to!

[pianoplayer]

As a mom of a 13, almost 14-year-old son, I can sympathize with your dilemma!

As several have noted, I also recommend that you keep your word. Unless you stipulated something awfully foolish (or dangerous), I think it is important that your son know that you mean what you say and are not afraid to back it up with consequences.

That being said, I have found my hubby most helpful in these types of situations. He is quick to jump in and make it plain that he will not tolerate disrespect to me and that any child who shows disrespect to me will have to deal with him. Hubby is very calm-tempered and analytical, but is as immovable as a rock, so that usually settles this issue quickly. :) My advice, then, would be to talk to your husband privately, explain what is happening, and ask for his help with your son.

I also recommend that you look for a time when you and your son are not at loggerheads to talk to him about the way he expresses disagreement with you. Let him know that you will not tolerate disrespect, but talk him through ways that he can express his disagreement respectfully . . . and assure him that you will listen carefully to his respectfully-stated concerns. I think it's very important that you not let the communication between you two collapse.

[Audrey]

As others have said, I'd stick to what you've already done. He misses that practice for having a bad attitude. You really have to stick to your guns, hon. Otherwise, he'll learn that you can be manipulated and he'll do it again and again and ... you know. Also, I don't think your choice of punishment was inappropriate at all.

[pianoplayer]

I think that it is really important to distinguish blatant disrespect and rebellion from other less serious (but still noteworthy) responses. If our children do not learn to respect and obey us (their parents), they are in for some rude awakenings as they grow up and have to deal with employers, police, etc. in the real world. Furthermore, the consequences of such behavior in the real world may be much more severe than missing one day's soccer practice. So, in my book, you're not being unreasonable in setting such a penalty for his behavior; you're being kind and loving, and trying to keep him from bigger, more unpleasant consequences in adult life.

[Mama Bear]

I've been thinking about it all yesterday and today, b/c it seems like there's a parenting lesson in there, but I can't quite pin it down. Or maybe I don't want to.

I liked the "Basic Cause and Effect" years. They were easy. I'm so not up for adolescence.

It's that whole "letting them exit with grace/dignity" thing. 'Cause, you know, they're people and they've just begun to figure that out. :tongue_smilie:

It's just a totally different dynamic, no? And the whole mutual respect idea doesn't so much fly when I, the parent, am still in the cause and effect mode and the kid just wants some respect, even if/when he/she behaves like a little beast.

Today I'd be happy to be unconcious for at least part of the next few years. Sorta.

Nah. :D

[Joanne]

I am not necessarily afraid my son is going to "take advantage" of me if I change my mind this time around. But I also can not honestly say that my reaction was over the top or wrong, so I wouldn't say that to him. I would consider allowing him to go primarily because I believe in a "show up if you're part of the team" philosophy, but I would want to impose another consequence. I am just not sure what that consequence could be...
__________________

I know that, Colleen. I should have made it clear that I was including that example for my spin of the thread and not in direct response to your situation. I don't think you over-reacted at all.

I am still quite surprised at how many people do not value the team/responsibility to others aspect of this.

I'm less surprised at the stalwart, "you said it and must follow through" contingent.

And, while I do agree consequences in this case are necessary, I don't think that *one* incident like this is so determining that a child is at risk for years of similar behavior if it isn't met with the perfected meted out parental authority.

[Momto4kids]

I would follow through in this instance because the last thing you want to do is lose face with a teenage boy. He's testing your will and giving in on something like this will show weakness. From here forward, don't pop off about soccer practice. Have some other consequences in your back pocket.




:iagree: If you back down now you may lose some gorund.

[JuJuBee]

In a healthy situation, a child is not going to suffer, become manipulative, or try to get away with it next time if a reasonable parent says:

"Hey, dude, I've been thinking about this. Not allowing you to go to practice was not a well thought out consequence. Your behavior was not acceptable, and I will impose "X" consequence instead. But I've changed my mind about what I first said because __________."

Or even:

"Hey, dude. I've been thinking. While what you did was not ok. But my reaction was over the top. What I said or the way I said it was not ok."

I think it's not only acceptable to change, amend or even remove consequences upon further review, I think that it's appropriate. We are not going to hit the mark for every parenting event. It's much more authentic and productive to be able to revisit the issue with wisdom, intelligence and even humility.

I do not disagree with this principle, i.e., sometimes we revisit a decision we made. But I think this should be pretty rare and we should strive not to make this the norm by simply being careful what we say up front, first, and by following through except when our initial reaction was completely out of line with the situation. In other words, a parental redo should be the exception, IMO.

The question here is was the "no soccer practice" (which was a very clear line drawn in the sand) so outrageous or offensive or unreasonable that it should be reworked? I don't think so. It's a soccer practice. It's really not a big deal in the grand scheme. It wasn't, oh, six weeks hard labor!

Which is also not to say that there aren't other issues at play here and that perhaps all of us moms of teens have a hard time responding to the move from child to teen to adult. It's tough!

[elizam]

I remember once when my ds was 11, he had a coach who emphasized behavior both at home and on the field. He told the kids and the parents taht, if the kid gave his parents any grief at home, they should tel lhim and *he'd* make them run a lap or two at practice. That included if they were late to practice, for whatever reason.



Doesn't James Dobson address boys balking at their moms' authroity in his book Bringing up Boys?

[Doran]

I think we're transitioning into a place of more words, less actions. Because this is so rare and he shows you consistently that he's a great kid, he has to be feeling awful about this. .....
So... All that to say that perhaps no consequence as such is needed. Perhaps the opportunity to engage more with explanations of emotions, how to handle such things, really connecting in that way is the only thing he really needs.


Yes, yes! This is what I was getting at with my suggestion that you give the boy-man more space to figure out what to do with himself in this situation. Talk to him when the heat is off and explain that you want to let him know that you can't abide his being belligerent, but that by offering him some leeway (grace/dignity), you anticipate a mature response. If his actions don't show you that he's ready for mature discipline (more words/less action), then you'll be required to go back to doling out what may appear to him to be more childish punishments.

It seems to be working in my house. Well, except when it doesn't. I wish there were bottles of stuff to buy for each stage of parenting..."Drink this and all your problems will be solved." Oh, wait. Maybe that's what Mike's is for?


MB -- does this make you feel any better? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/sleep026.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)


Doran

[Joanne]

The question here is was the "no soccer practice" (which was a very clear line drawn in the sand) so outrageous or offensive or unreasonable that it should be reworked? I don't think so. It's a soccer practice. It's really not a big deal in the grand scheme. It wasn't, oh, six weeks hard labor!

It's practice with a team. A team that practices in order to build and improve skills not as individuals but together. The team adults plan for practices, drills, and situations using the members of the team.

I think that removing *team* practice as a discipline tool is a poor choice for several reasons, not the least of which is that when you are on a team, you you effect the others.

[JuJuBee]

It's practice with a team. A team that practices in order to build and improve skills not as individuals but together. The team adults plan for practices, drills, and situations using the members of the team.

I think that removing *team* practice as a discipline tool is a poor choice for several reasons, not the least of which is that when you are on a team, you you effect the others.

Yes, I understand all of that, and I agree that choosing "no soccer practice" isn't ideal. But I don't think "commitment to a team" is where I'd have my last stand, anymore than "parent is never wrong" is. It's obviously a less than ideal circumstance all around.

[Joanne]

It's obviously a less than ideal circumstance all around.

I agree.

And, because there is a least some overlap between Colleen's situation and mine, I have to add that I am still dealing with symptoms of the modelling and example set by my children's father in relation to me and issues of honor and respect.

[Joanne]

Colleen,

Norm Wakefield (a conservative Christian, if that makes a difference to you) has some good info on boys, teens, growing up. I talked to him personally about issues relating to not having appropriate male authority in the home (this was before I remarried). He was very helpful.

FWIW:

http://www.spiritofelijah.com/

[Peek a Boo]

well, if Colleen HAD another alternative in mind, i would probably suggest running with it even now. But w/o that clearly idealized in her head, don't back down yet.

i absolutely agree that we should limit consequences from involving a team practice. However, if it's a last straw kind of thing, any event a kid is involved in is up for grabs and on the parenting discipline table. I know I would do my best to keep from having consequences drip over into team events, and it does seem like Colleen would prefer to do the same. Now she just needs some ideas.......I'm not sure if the stuff i do w/ my guys would work on her farm tho.

And i do agree that commitment to a team is important. But Part of being a team is learning how to overcome obstacles LIKE a missing player. One practice won't hurt the team. It will help them learn to adapt. He'll be there for the game.

[PariSarah]

I am still quite surprised at how many people do not value the team/responsibility to others aspect of this.


I value responsibility to the team--and, frankly, one way I exercise that responsibility is by training my child not to be a snot. I keep "staying home from practice" on the table not because I don't respect the coach, but because I do. What I mean is, effective parenting at home tends to contribute to a good team environment. (Hasn't your dh ever experienced recalcitrant team members whom he suspects to be receiving sub-par parenting at home?) If the punishment of staying home from practice is a rarely-given but effective weapon in the arsenal, I think it is anything but disrespectful and rude. (I think the rarely-given part is absolutely key here. And that's obviously the case in Colleen's situation.)

To put it another way, if a kid knows that you will never keep him home from practice, he is just as likely to think of it as his right to enjoy sports rather than his responsibility to the team that's keeping you from disciplining him this way. And kids are less likely to respect that to which they feel they have a right. They think of it as "their turf." It's similar to (but not exactly like) the dreaded Grandparent Effect. If you never discipline them around the grandparents, they learn to associate grandparental visits with allowed misbehavior. If they feel that they have a right to be at sports, no matter what their behavior, they may feel that they have a right to behave however they want even at their sports practice.

[PrairieAir]

I don't understand the fear. In the context of a usually consistent mom who does not ignore behavior, why the reluctance to revisit a decision and make a change if necessary?

I remember a couple of times my parents *knew* they had made a mistake in consequences issued but the following through because "consistency" was an adhered to parenting princple. I didn't "learn more" or "better." I thought it was stupid that they followed through on something that needed to be changed.

In a healthy situation, a child is not going to suffer, become manipulative, or try to get away with it next time if a reasonable parent says:

"Hey, dude, I've been thinking about this. Not allowing you to go to practice was not a well thought out consequence. Your behavior was not acceptable, and I will impose "X" consequence instead. But I've changed my mind about what I first said because __________."

Or even:

"Hey, dude. I've been thinking. While what you did was not ok. But my reaction was over the top. What I said or the way I said it was not ok."

I think it's not only acceptable to change, amend or even remove consequences upon further review, I think that it's appropriate. We are not going to hit the mark for every parenting event. It's much more authentic and productive to be able to revisit the issue with wisdom, intelligence and even humility.

I really don't believe it's fear for most people who have responded this way. I know it's not for me.

I will amend what I said earlier by saying that each kid is different. With my older son, changing the punishment would have been me showing weakness in his eyes. It would not have been an issue with my younger son. They are two very different people and have always responded differently to things.

I have seen that most pre-teen and young teen boys are all about testing their parents, though. Even good kids do it. They are trying to figure out where they fit into the adult world and exactly when that magic moment is. Girls do it too, but boys tend to feel the need to test boundaries and assert their own authority more.

The key with my oldest son--the key I wish I would have been wise enough to pick up on sooner--was to have strategies in place for dealing with such situations before they ever happened. Then I wouldn't have been taken so much by surprise and could have dealt with him more calmly instead of allowing him to manipulate me.

I do think that most of the people who said to stick with the original punishment expressed that it was not the best solution for the future. I think they are, as I am, looking at this as a one time thing. Missing practice once under these circumstances will not hurt the team. I add this last paragraph because your posts sound like you think people are giving the okay to make this a regular habit.

--------
I forgot that Colleen had asked for suggestions for the future. I do like what Joanne said about consequences that offer practice in proper behavior. If he has been disrespectful, giving him things to do that help him practice being respectful or doing something for someone else sounds good to me. There's another one of those, "Gee, I wish I'd a thunk of it" items. :)

[Mrs. H.]

I value responsibility to the team--and, frankly, one way I exercise that responsibility is by training my child not to be a snot. I keep "staying home from practice" on the table not because I don't respect the coach, but because I do. What I mean is, effective parenting at home tends to contribute to a good team environment.

I agree with PariSarah, and that's what I was attempting to convey with my original reply. Teaching responsibility to teens is about the whole package, and team sports shouldn't be left out, on the contrary, if he learns that unnacceptable behavior at home leads to him being thought of as irresponsible to the team and coach, it may be motivation for him to amend his ways. He needs to know that the team is counting on him, and that he must behave accordingly so as not to let them down.

Also, it would be unacceptable to me that he treats his brothers badly, but gets upheld as a role model to younger boys on the team. My reply wasn't about Colleen sticking to her guns about the removal of practice, but about teaching her son responsibility, and how to treat your family right as well as outsiders.

Colleen, the fact that your husband stood by and did nothing would be a huge concern if it were me. Teen boys need strong male role models that show how to be a man through loving your wife and children, providing for them (if that is your dynamic), leading them along their chosen path, and doing it with love and respect, not dominance and condescention. I would definitely have a talk with my dh about how I really, really need him to back me up on these issues, and give the boy the 'what you need to know about becoming a man' speech, but to each his own.

[Amy in Orlando]

It's too late for me to try and be helpful for today's situation. So I will just jump to some ideas that worked with my oldest son around this same age. For some reason, my twins have not been nearly as determined to rebel (yet?).

Sit down when you're both calm - maybe after the very short people are in bed. Explain to him that you get how frustrated he is with the other kids and also explain how frustrated YOU are with him. Tell him you'd like to try it out with him working in his room but that he must get his work done in a timely manner if you're going to do this. With my son, I have him bring out each subject as he finishes so I have an idea of where he is. Simply letting him work apart from the other boys brought about a tremendous change in his attitude. We still have subjects we do together but I try to space them out throughout the day.

Now that the twins are older, too - they all have their own area where they do their work. If anyone starts really dragging, they're back at the kitchen table where I can see them. It's cut down on a lot of the arguing (between them) and snarky attitudes (towards me).

Another thing we've worked out is that I'll give him (them) a warning about their tone or attitude. This is their signal to pull me aside and let me know what in the world is going on inside their head or if it's just a crazy mood swing thing. If they talk to me and explain what's going on, I'll try to work out a solution. If they don't talk to me AND the attitude continues, they know they will sit at the kitchen table working, they will accompany me on all errands (a big deal since they enjoy being allowed to stay home while I do shopping or whatever) and with my oldest son he loses the right to practice his driving.

Having this all laid out clearly in front of them before anything happens has made a huge difference. There's no arguing, no discussion, that's just how things are.

It's not perfect and we adjust things as they get older, but so far it's working pretty well. We still have moody days, but I'm much better at picking up on it first thing in the morning.

Hang in there - I hear they get nice again. ;)

[Colleen]

Thank you very much for your input! After giving it more consideration, I decided to stay the course, and the fall-out has been...not pretty. My son was quite chipper through lunch and beyond and I wondered if he realized I meant what I said, or if he simply hoped I'd change my mind. About an hour before practice, I said, "You need to call your coach now and let her know you won't be at practice this afternoon." He looked bewildered and replied, "Why? I went out and did what you told me." To which I replied, "Yes, you did, once you lost soccer practice and were on the verge of losing the activity on Saturday. Son, you were extremely disrespectful and defiant this morning. Because you were acting hostile, I asked you to go outside and run. You choose not to. As I've told you many times, I can't control you. But if I ask that something be done, and you choose not to do it, there are consequences to that choice. I made it very clear what the consequence would be if you kept defying me. I'm very sorry that you made the choice to not go to practice today. Now please call your coach."

Let's see...How can I describe his reaction at this point? He looked like he was about to explode ~ or implode. One or the other. He was mad as all get out, and the anger was all directed at me, of course. He pleaded his case, belligerently, after which I again emphasized that he is responsible for his own behavior and associated consequences.

He did phone his coach, and then I asked him to sit down and talk with me. We have a good relationship, and very often when we talk through an issue, everything works out nicely. Not the case this time. He was seething, muttering under his breath, and generally conveying the impression that missing this practice was going to be the death of him (or me). At that point, I just calmly said we could talk more later and let it go.

A short time later, he storms back to where I was sitting, holding this baseball hat that had gone through the washing machine. "Did you wash this?" he demanded. "Mmm, yes, apparently." "Well, it's ruined now!!!" This definitely raised my dander. I reminded him that I washed the clothes which he and his brother brought downstairs, and the hat must have been in that pile. I suggested that he wash his own clothes if he's not satisfied with how I do it and he continued seething, looking at me like I was the devil incarnate. Throughout this, btw, my husband was again right there. "Son," I said. "The way you're treating me right now is totally unacceptable. I think you need to go do some work outside to work off some energy." To which he responded, "No, I'm not going to." After that, I pretty much gave up. To have my son behave like this toward me ~ in the presence of his father, I might add ~ is just too much. I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach.

I am sure my son will be apologetic later. We'll talk and cry and hug and this will be smoothed over ~ for now. But I am disgusted and hurt and also trying to figure out how to respond if (when) this kind of garbage again rears its ugly head.

Meanwhile, I spoke privately to my husband and expressed my dismay that he would give tacit approval to this kind of behavior. Suffice it to say that's a lost cause.

So. Sorry for rambling; I just needed to get all that out. This is way too hard, and going it alone makes it all the harder.

[Elaine]

(((Colleen))) You did the right thing, you really did.


I'm so sorry that you are sad.

[Amy in Orlando]

Ugh - I"m sorry you're having such a rough time, Colleen. FWIW, I think you're handling things as well as possible. ((()))

[Colleen]

nt

[sdWTMer]

Colleen,

I have nothing to offer except HUGS. I'm so sorry that you are going through this!

[Mrs. H.]

Colleen, I'm sorry your husband is so unhelpful in this situation, but I will say that dealing with the temper of a 12 year old is much better than dealing with a 17 year old's blow-ups. Stay the course, and repeat all you've said here when he calms down, then I think a planned out course of action for future problems would be in order. If you are a list-maker, perhaps a list of offenses/disciplinary tactics would help keep you level-headed and calm during future infractions. Perhaps a private call to his coach would be in order, so that she knows there is a situation at home that needs to be addressed.

I'm just going to go all out and state this: if this were my child, I would threaten (and follow-through, if need be) to remove all outside activities until he proved to be respectful to you, kind to his siblings, and responsible for his temper. Yep, I would eat all the money I'd spent on whatever sport/lesson/co-op class, and pull him out for some serious family isolation if this situation escalates. This will not only let him know that there are things you can control that will make his world unpleasant, but it would probably prevent a lot of future problems from the younger boys, when they remember what happened when the oldest tried to best Mom. Just my opinion.

By the way, I think you did a good job here, and the comment about him doing his own laundry was a good choice as well. Whomever he marries in the future probably won't take too well to being blown up at for accidentally ruining a cap, so you shouldn't have to take it either. I'm all for treating teens with respect, but they should have to treat their parents with respect also, and you have several more years until this child is old enough to be on his own.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I think you need to go do some work outside to work off some energy." To which he responded, "No, I'm not going to." After that, I pretty much gave up. To have my son behave like this toward me ~ in the presence of his father, I might add ~ is just too much. I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach.

I am sure my son will be apologetic later. We'll talk and cry and hug and this will be smoothed over ~ for now. But I am disgusted and hurt and also trying to figure out how to respond if (when) this kind of garbage again rears its ugly head.



You did the right thing, Colleen. The hard thing, but the right thing.

And when you do get to the point of hugging and smoothing over and restoring the relationship, Please, please remind him that you told him to go out and do some outside work. Bring him to obedience at that point, when he is seeking restoration. Tell him that you were not banishing him, and that you'd be pleased to go out with him, but that men need physical activity sometimes to work through difficult emotion, and that he's well on his way to becoming a man. As his mom, right now your job is to know when he needs to do a man's work to get through the emotions that his stupid out-of-control hormones are causing in him, particularly anger, and his job is to listen to you when you're telling him that he needs to go outside and manage those emotions with hard work like a man if you see that his adult hormones are starting to steer him into trouble.

Ask him to please do this at that point, not because he needs to work through emotion at THAT time, but that he did not listen to you before. Ten minutes or so. Just to balance the obedience account. And to make it right with you with more than simple lip service.

I would also say that you could speak to him about getting a choice of what to do to work off the surging adult emotions-- perhaps you could say "You have to manage this. Go manage it. If you need to go for a run, go. If you need to move some rocks, move them. If you need to dig me a garden, go. But NOW!" Let him know he has a choice of what to do, but sitting there abusing you -- and frankly, if you say it like it is, he may sit up and take notice more -- is not one of the choices. Tell him specifically that you will NOT be abused by the men in your house. Period.

I'm so sorry you had an emotional day. Stuff like this just leaves me shaking.

[JuJuBee]

Colleen, it sounds like you did a tremendous job under the circumstances. Good for you! There will be more soccer practices, but this lesson will hopefully make an impression on your son so that he can enjoy the rest of them.

Many hugs to you. This parenting is tough for sure.

[pianoplayer]

Dear Colleen,

I am so sorry for what you have gone through! I do believe that it sounds like you have done what was right and wise, albeit in very difficult and trying circumstances.

I don't mean to pry, but are you a woman of faith? Do you have a trusted pastor/teacher from whom you can seek wisdom, counsel, and support? Is there a trusted spiritual leader who could provide wise counsel for your son? If so, these avenues might be worth considering.

Hang in there! (((hugs)))

[Doran]

You did the right thing, Colleen. The hard thing, but the right thing. ...


[Son] -- "You have to manage this. Go manage it. If you need to go for a run, go. If you need to move some rocks, move them. If you need to dig me a garden, go. But NOW!"


Sending you clarity, Colleen. And hugs where they may be lacking right now.

Doran

[Danestress]

Well, I'm sure this is done and over now, so whatever you did, you did. I read some of the posts in the thread but not all of them, and mostly I am so glad to be "in between" 13 year olds, lol. That really wasn't my funnest year as a Mom.

Reading your post was like watching the scene where the bad guy attacks the woman in the alley. You can't help but want to jump up and scream, 'Don't go there, turn around, not the alley." I was wanting to stop you mid post and scream, "Colleen, Colleen, DON'T say that," when you were telling him he had to run laps or XY or Z would happen. I walked down that alley a few times, and there are some really bad things hanging out in there.

The thing is, I am fine, perfectly fine, with taking soccer away. Or more pointedly, not driving him to soccer but he's welcome to walk the 8 miles to get there. But I don't drive people around after they are rude to me. So there:) Reasonable minds differ on this, and I can see it both ways, and I wouldn't want to make a regular thing of it, but I have no problem with it in theory. Since you said it and it wasn't patently wrong, I would have gone with it. Unless I decided not to go with it, because I am the Mom and I can change my mind. Or not. And neither will do permanent damage to him, the team, the coach or your relationship. Either way, it's the relationship that is hurting - this decision is just one of many and who knows what is right?

I guess I just found that it was best to keep my next play close to the chest when he's trying to have a "power show-down." I told my son many times, and I recommend saying it to your son, "You are mostly grown. You are bigger than I am. I can't *make* you do what I want. But here's the thing Jan. I *can* make you regret not obeying me." I always said that I don't have to be perfect to be entitled to respect, compliance, and politeness. I demand those things even as a fallible person and a Mom who makes mistakes. If Jan doesn't like running laps, then another day you can talk about what would help him get himself out of a funk. But for today you told him to do something and he refused, and he's got to know there is a price for that.

So my usual policy was just to say, "Is that your final answer?" And to leave it at that. If he still refused, fine. I let him stew in it. That bought me time to decide what to do about it. I need time to think. Maybe the next day he'd ask for a ride to a friends and that's when we would talk about how when you fail to show filial respect, you end up finding that your parents don't operate cars for your pleasure alone. Whatever. Maybe you would decide to do nothing about it because an hour later the kid comes and apologizes and you work through it and are satisfied. I liked just saying, "Is that your final answer" because it's a great time buyer. And usually, when a kid doesn't know what might happen, they imagine something worse than you would have said anyway and they end up complying. So for what it's worth, that was a little trick that saved me many times from making ultimatums or threats I would regret.

Anyway, I am sorry you aren't getting support from your husband on this. I personally felt that I had to redefine my own relationship with my son during this age. I had to learn how to respect his independence as he grew but also teach him that I am still in charge of my own house and that has nothing to do with his age or size. I had to be strong and project confidence. But my husband did back me up, and I backed him up, and it was nice to have a partner in it (though in all honestly, there was a period when we often had conflict about it too, and I think that's often the case as the oldest child reaches this age). So I am sorry that you are missing that sense of just having someone else on your side.

Relationships are really complicated. 13 was hard. Good too - and like your son, mine really was a basically good kid. This will pass. Love Dana

[WTMindy]

But at times, I think "real" consequences are in order. I am just honestly at a loss as to what those consequences should be. It's easier when they're younger, because I almost always make the consequence fit the "crime". If a child colors on the wall, for example, I'd make them help clean it off and, the next time they want to color, remind them that they abused that privilege before. That sort of thing. But it's harder now to relate the discipline to the behavior. And I also don't have a whole lot I can "take away", so to speak. My guys lead pretty simple lives, and I mean that in a good way.

All of which is to say, what sort of consequence would you impose for this kind of behavior?

I am feeling that more and more with my 9yob. I feel a little at a loss at what the consequences should be. The things that worked before do not work now. I haven't had that level of defiance....yet, but he is only 9.5. I'm eagerly reading all I can about how to handle boys at this stage.

Maybe in a calm moment tonight or soon you can ask him, "You know that you can't be defiant to your parents. It is totally against what the Bible says, etc.. What do you think would be a fitting punishment for when you get into those kinds of moods...as we all do at times? If *you* were the parent, how would you handle it?" Maybe he might have a good idea.

[Colleen]

Perhaps because I'm feeling more than bit tender right now, some of your comments stung a bit. (Basically, the second paragraph.) But I do appreciate your honesty. I just want to point out that I do say many of the very things you described. In my update, I mentioned telling my son, "I can't control you. But if I ask that something be done, and you choose not to do it, there are consequences to that choice." So yes, as you said, I am cognizant that I can't *make* him do anything, and I acknowledge that to him.

I like that "Is that your final answer?" trick. I'll definitely have to add that card to my deck.;)

[JuJuBee]

I am feeling that more and more with my 9yob. I feel a little at a loss at what the consequences should be.


I also like the "Is that your final answer?" concept.

OK, I will toss this out. In our family, allowance is roughly a dollar a week for every year of age. The next week's allowance is doled out in the form of poker chips each Sunday night, and extra chips can be earned for going ABCD (above and beyond the call of duty).

Chips can also be lost. If you get the warning eyeball/verbal warning, but you persist in _______ (annoying your brother, not doing your homework, forgetting to put away your clothes), you can be fined on the spot, i.e, "Go get me a chip, and fine a new tone on the way back." Then, they both have to hand the chip over then, and they see at the end of the week that instead of $10, they get $9 (or whatever).

Usually "Do you need to get me a chip to help you get your behavior in line?" will correct their behavior.

[PariSarah]

That. just. sucks.

(Kicking some furniture on your behalf.)

(Not that it does you any good. And plus the furniture didn't do anything.)

I don't mean this to sound flippant, Colleen, but .. . .well, tomorrow's another day. I hope it's a better one than today.

[Dana in OR]

That age is so difficult. I have already blown it a few times with my own 13yo dd. The good things are that:

a) you *will* make up
b) someday when they are past that age they will make you so proud.
c) at least you can learn from this for the rest of the kids.
d) sleeping on it will make it seem a lot better tomorrow.

Our roughest years were when our son was 15-16. His brain seemed to take a hike during those years. He is such a different person now (at 24).

More disturbing to me is that your husband is not stepping in when needed. The adolescent attitude stuff is to be expected; the husband not being a role model is not.

When we get caught up in little kid needs (there are so many) we can so easily forget the needs of our older children. Can you try to get away with him, just the two of you, on some task that you can work on together?

A final thought: Please try to keep your sense of humor during this trying time. I know it is probably the furthest thing from your mind. I think it is what got us through those awful years. Our son would lie in wait in a closet or behind a door sometimes up to half an hour in order to jump out, scare me and make me wet my pants. He still snickers about it to this day.

[Leah]

Ok, lots of great posts here, but I just have to say that this one is outstanding! Commitments to others cannot trump civil behavior.

Absolutely love the line- "training my child not to be a snot.:

:)

[nestof3]

Colleen,

I have just read this entire thread and am very sorry you are going through this. I think you handled yourself well, and I truly hope you and your son can work through this.

I do have an older son (almost 18), so can I just mention a couple of things?

Usually, this sort of "on edge," "simmering" attitude is not a sudden thing. I am hoping he will be able to communicate with you what's going on inside of him -- why he seems so uptight and easily agitated.

Also, I would really reconsider the running of laps to deal with his anger/defiance. I would personally find that rather humiliating. When I have had bouts of anger over something (even if no one knew why), I would much prefer someone communicate with me and help me work through it -- to draw me out. I am actually a rather strict disciplinarian, so please know I'm not urging you to go soft on him. From my experience, when boys start becoming men, the sorts of punishments or anger-management techniques need to change. They will usually put up a fight if they feel humiliated.

Learning how to control emotions is really something that comes from example and heart to heart. Even with my young ones, I notice far greater resuts when I can empathize with their emotion, explain that I have the same emotions, and remind them that we still need to treat one another with respect.

Ashamedly, I think my son has learned how to restore a relationship and seek forgiveness from me because he's seen me do the same to him. I tended to exagerate, blow things out of proportion, get worked up and lose control. Helping one learn the art of self control is something that comes through relationship more than punishment.

Again, I'm all for consequences -- honestly, I am. I am just trying to share my experience, that's all.

[Mama Bear]

MB -- does this make you feel any better? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/sleep026.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

YES!!! Yes, it does! :D:lol::D

[Kate CA]

So. Sorry for rambling; I just needed to get all that out. This is way too hard, and going it alone makes it all the harder.


Oh, Colleen, I am SO sorry. I am just so very sorry. I will be praying for you tonight. ((((Colleen))))

[Marie in Oh]

You handled yourself beautifully in a very difficult situation. I am sorry for your situation with Hans on multiple levels, but staying your ground like you did will only make the long run easier. I am not of the opinion the dedication to team means practice at all costs. We have used this consequence with our oldest and will continue. Like you said, you got him where it hurts-- he loves soccer. Missing practice and having to explain to his coach was humbling. And, contrary to what some say, most reasonable coaches would support this. I would and I have coached numerous teams over the years and I would applaud a parent in this sports saturated world who would take a stand with his/her kid and make him realize that it is a privilide to participate on a team and basic civil behavior is required. And at his age I am sure he is practicing numerous times a week-- missing a practice will NOT affect the team. It just won't. You did a good thing Colleen-- and the fruit of it will eventually be seen.

[Remudamom]

I haven't read all the responses so I'm sorry if I'm repeating.

I've got two 13 yr old boys, and if they get disrespecful with me, their dad sets them straight fast.

If dad doesn't happen to be available at the moment, life shuts down. Not only would they not go to soccer practice, they wouldn't eat, think or breathe until they made it right.

I don't mean to sound like a hard @$$, but I'd be in his face. And if he told me "no", I'd do the laps with him, but I'd be behind him with a big stick, and he'd better run faster than me.

[Danestress]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Navy"]Perhaps because I'm feeling more than bit tender right now, some of your comments stung a bit. (Basically, the second paragraph.)



Colleen, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean for that to be even vaguely critical but on rereading it, it really did sound critical. I really wasn't trying to say you made a mistake in what you did - like I said, take away soccer or not - it doesn't seem like a truly "bad" decision either way. But I know when my son invited me into power struggles like this and I accepted the challenge, I often regretted what I said or did- not because it was wrong but because he took me off guard and later I thought of something much much better. I sort of guessed that the next paragraph was going to say "maybe soccer wasn't the right thing.

I just hated this part of parenting because I really don't want to be in power struggles in the first place. I'm definitely a "pick your battles" parent, and I think it's hard when you are both Mom and teacher because you really do have to get their compliance. It's not so much that we think we can *make* then do things (I said that because my son wanted to prove that I couldn't and I needed to assure him that I already knew I couldn't, and that this was not the point). I know you know you can't make him. I wonder if that's what he was trying to prove though - and that maybe he needs to hear "don't bother."

Anyway, I'm sorry my comments stung you at all. Honestly, what you are going through just sounds painfully familiar and you probably handled it better than I handled similar incidents on a number of occasions. The "is that your final answer" thing worked great, but believe me, I learned the hard way more than once that I had to buy that time because otherwise we would get into a power struggle that I might "win" but wouldn't feel good about.

[Mama Bear]

Your update post had me swallowing hard. Hugs, prayers, blessings to you.

:grouphug:

[Stacy in NJ]

You posted previously about communicating with him about difficulty in your relationship with your dh. I think, perhaps, his current behavior is a reaction to what he perceives as the shifting waters within your familia relationships. He probably saw your marriage as an immovable force, as his sense of that changes, he may begin to question other "absolutes". I can't say whether your strategy for discipling him is the best one, but you might want to keep in mind where his "attitude" maybe coming from.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Colleen, You did great. This parenting a teen thing is not the 50 yard dash, but a marathon. Some miles will be tougher and we don't see the finish line. I have had the exact same issues with my son (the previously compliant, good-natured, perfect oldest child turned into surly, emotional 13 year old.) Ds is now 14 and is much easier to get along with this year! The end is in sight, even though I know there will be many switchbacks in the road ahead.

BTW, I think your instinct to remove a privilege was right on. Whether the missing practice punishment was a good idea or not - well - something had to be done and that was the immediate thing that came to mind. I don't think it would have been a bad idea to come up with an alternate punishment, equally "crushing", but not as unfair to the teammates. However, none of us is perfect. I think having to explain to another adult authority figure why he couldn't come can be very enlightening to these boys.

My son lost his privilege to belt test in Karate due to an episode of testosterone-driven defiance. His younger brother was allowed to test and went ahead of him in rank. When he realized we were following through, you should have seen the histrionics! I am smiling now, but back then, I thought the world was coming to an end! The karate sensei backed me up and asked me what ds had to do to earn back the privilege. When I told Sensei about this episode, he said something that made my day. He asked me if my son had that darkening fuzz on his upper lip and smiled when I confirmed that. He then reassured me that what was happening was normal - in his 20 years of teaching karate, he has seen lots good boys go through this phase at this exact time in puberty. He assured me that I was doing the right thing and that we would get through it:)!

[Liz CA]

I am torn now. I've argued here before that I typically don't keep my boys from a team practice as a means of discipline. With my oldest two, soccer is really all that speaks to them, though. And while I wouldn't routinely have them miss a practice, I felt his direct defiance and disrespect warranted...something. I just wasn't sure what. His soccer coach has a son the same age, on the same team, and I know she'd be perfectly understanding if he misses the practice.

I admittedly feel bad for him. He loves soccer and its his chance to be with his friends. But I also hate to reneg on what I said earlier. I can't put up with that kind of junk; it disrupts everyone. I just can't decide...What would you do?[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

even if you feel in retrospect that it may not have been the best choice of discipline.
Just think it over next time beforehand.
This sounds very normal for this age group. Nothing to get too concerned about.

[Colleen]

Also, I would really reconsider the running of laps to deal with his anger/defiance. I would personally find that rather humiliating. When I have had bouts of anger over something (even if no one knew why), I would much prefer someone communicate with me and help me work through it -- to draw me out.

Thank you for your advice; it's particularly helpful to hear from those have shepherded young men through this stage. When I spoke with my son last night, I told him that he needn't do the running if he'd rather not. But I did say that he has to find a way to process his anger and let it go such that he's not sitting around the rest of us simmering. I am one who would much prefer someone NOT communicate with me when I'm upset. I'd much prefer to go outside and move and get some fresh air, and I think that's true of most of my boys, too. But you offered some great insights here and I appreciate that.

[Colleen]

I've got two 13 yr old boys, and if they get disrespecful with me, their dad sets them straight fast.

You mentioned that you've not read all the replies so you likely didn't catch the fact that this is not my reality. I'm glad others can rely on that, but I can't, which is one reason why I wanted to process it here and find out how others would deal with the situation.:)

[Call Me Cordelia]

Don't go back without replacing the consequence with something as drastic. I have found that $$ speaks loudly and quickly. My ds has a job as a referee. We struggled with his attitude about his home school co-op classes. I gave up nagging, stating that any class he received less than a "B" in would result in his paying for the class. $400.

He has straight A's.

[ChristyB in AL]

I have read through this whole thread. It interested me since I have 2 boys, ages 15 and 16. Looking back, the years of 12 and 13 have been the hardest thus far. There were frequent outbursts of anger from both of mine. They both fought/bickered (never came to blows--not allowed here!!)more those years than ever before. My sons now act more like comrades/friends and it is a joy to watch.

I would have done exactly as you did---my oldest plays football and to have that taken away would have straightened him up.

I don't know what has happened since this consequence was enforced but at some point Jan needs to realize that this was the choice that he made. He needs to understand that life is a series of choices....where we are and what happens to us is (not always but normally) because of the choices that we make, and that is true for an adult as well as a child.

I am sorry for all the other *stuff* you are dealing with--just sorry about the whole situation. I will be praying for your family.