advice welcome - 13 dd with severe dyslexia and dysgraphia

[cathmom]

She has been avoiding doing schoolwork. Since she has 5 younger siblings, it's easy for her to hide in her room and let me get distracted by them. She told me today that she is deliberately doing that (I didn't know if it was just happening or if it was deliberate) because she feels like she never makes any progress and she isn't getting anywhere. It really is not true - she is receiving 2x week tutoring and can now write in a beautiful cursive and can spell better (of course, she says that since she couldn't spell AT ALL before, that isn't saying much).

She told me she doesn't like me reminding her of her schoolwork or talking about college. Basically, she feels dumb and like she will never learn anything. She hates that much younger children can spell things that she can't. She can write short sentences now, with spelling help, but hasn't yet learned to write even paragraphs. She has a long way to go, and agewise, should be starting high school next year. I bought her a special typing program that was recommended for dyslexia, but since she is avoiding her schoolwork, she hasn't made much progress in learning to type.

However, she is very intelligent and she knows a LOT in her area of interest - animals and the natural world. She impresses adults with what she knows.

I've tried telling her that if she is consistent with her schoolwork, she will get better. But then she brought up the multiplication facts. Basically, we spent a lot of time using Times Tables the Fun Way, she seemed to learn them, and then she started forgetting them even though we continued to review. Is she supposed to do flash cards every day for the rest of her life so she doesn't forget them? She's very behind in math because of this issue. I have no problem with her using a calculator though.

I don't know what to do. I need her to just come do her schoolwork when it's scheduled. She says all we do are subjects she's bad at. That's not true, but she is stuck in a very negative rut. I thought of giving her a consequence, but then I feel like I am punishing her for having dyslexia.

It doesn't much help that dh has it too and feels the same way about school and has not finished college because of it. He feels like he cannot learn, and now dd is saying the same thing. For years I have tried to get him to see that he DOES know a lot about the subjects he is interested in and so he is able to learn, and now I feel like I have to say the same thing to her.

I feel like high school is all about maximizing strengths, but how can we do that when she still has SO much to remediate???

Does anyone have some advice? TIA!

[elfgivas@yahoo.com]

i write forever about dyslexia, and then i end up deleting most of my posts because of how they sound.

i'll try again.

dh could have said all of what your dd said as a teenager. he didn't really learn to center his point of reference, and therefore to read well, until he was 17. two years later he went to stanford.

ie. there is hope.

:grouphug: i wouldn't let her hide. if you can get a copy of "the gift of dyslexia", i think it could help a lot. i did the work in it myself with our dd, but i have a specialist's certificate in special education.... i think most folks could do it themselves, but i don't really know for sure. it also helped dh's self-image, and my attitude, too!

so here's dd age 11's story, and the program we put together for her.

our dd 11 is hugely dyslexic and dysgraphic. she is reading well above grade level now, and writes well. the last time she was tested, they asked if were were SURE she was dyslexic. after we stopped laughing and wiping away tears, we suggested they test her. they were astonished at how significant her dyslexia was.... and at how well she was functioning.

however, she will likely never be able to spell well, if at all. she will likely not go a day in her life without needing to check the tag in her shirt to see if she has it on backwards, or inside out, or both. she will likely never be able to write down a sequence of numbers accurately that are dictated to her. (this is not pessimism; this is her dear dad at age 50). and if given sudden directions to look/move left or right, the odds are 50/50 which way she'll go, and it may be right and it may be left... and roman numerals are right out, forever and ever. (she can now mix up 4 - IV and 6 - VI, etc; numbers she could never mix up before. lol....)

the thing that made the difference between her and dh was that we worked at root causes early, very early, and long, very long. we worked on helping her learn to center her point of reference. this involved specific exercises as you can find in "the gift of dyslexia". it also involved gymnastics, dance, hiking and any other sport we could interest her in. this helps because it works best if they keep their point of reference centered, and gives direct feedback when they don't (they fall, etc).

then we worked on kinesthetic knowledge of letters. her body will always know which letter is which, even if her brain/eyes/mouth don't. we learned ASL and use it all the time. she can finger spell with amazing accuracy. we made letters with our bodies. we wrote in whipping cream. we traced letters on sandpaper, on our backs, etc, etc. we worked with giant cardboard letters, gluing on things that began with that sound.

then we worked on phoneme awareness. things that helped were the leapfrog alphabet and reading dvds, AVKO spelling (which we modified initially so that she fingerspelled the words and then tried to print/write them), and "teach your children to read well", a canadian reading curriculum that focuses on phoneme fluency and then word fluency. we still use all of those things.

then we learned cursive, and keyboarding. again, her body knows where the letters are; as long as she doesn't look at the screen to see what she's typing, then its all good.

i read aloud at least an hour a day. they listened to books on tape with the books in front of them a lot. (every day, at least once)

we did all these things for hours a day, starting at age 2. hours. for years. we made them fun. we varied them. she never really realized that this wasn't the way everyone did school until her little sister started learning. it took us 6 years.

we didn't do spelling for the sake of spelling. we didn't do composition. we didn't do dictation. (well, we did, but it was her dictating to me so i could type it out for her).

we modified all school work so that she wasn't writing much at all until her reading fluency came up to speed. then it all unfolded from there. now she writes very well. her spelling has reached the point where spellcheck has half a hope of offering good suggestions, and she has enough word recognition that she can recognize the correct spelling, most of the time.
she is doing an online writing course at writeathome.com.

i'm thinking maybe you could do many of the "little kid" things with her, but with her doing it to "teach" a younger sibling. and i'd encourage her to explore her areas of interest (that is one thing dh's folks did really well).

its a hard road, and she's lucky to have you!
ann

[MerryAtHope]

What subjects does she feel she is good at? Is there a way you could alternate--ie, have her do one subject she's struggling with, and then as a "reward" she gets to do the subject she's good at. Go back and forth like that.

Could she record answers instead of writing them for some subjects?

Is there a way you can set your other children up with more independent work--something like with workboxes (link to pics & description in my signature), so that you can make your 13 yo more of a focus? At least for the rest of this school year, and then you could re-evaluate what you need to do for next year?

What things can you do to lighten her load--are there subjects that could be cut to focus on a few crucial things right now? Can more books be done on audio so she can learn without as much reading? Can she do tests or reports orally while she is working on her writing and spelling skills elsewhere?

3 years ago my son was spelling ask, aic--he thought the C could make both sounds in a word, and that sometimes extra vowels are thrown in "just because." 2 years ago he routinely wrote "form" instead of "from." He has made incredible progress with an Orton Gillingham program (we're using All About Spelling), and your daughter can too, but she's right, it's time and work. I think I'd agree with her--she's right that it's hard, and that it takes time, and that progress isn't nearly as fast as she'd like it to be.

BUT...what would she like life to look like in 5 years? Would she like things to be the same struggle they are today, or would she like to have made some significant progress in areas like typing, spelling, writing etc...? What's important to her--maybe emailing with friends or relatives is something she'd like to do without embarrassment--if she does nothing about doing her work, she won't get there. See if you can put your finger on what she would like to accomplish--ask her if she didn't have dyslexia, what would she like to be able to do--and then see if you can help her accomplish that goal.

Have you seen the lists that are out there of famous people with dyslexia--even some writers! Scientists--all kinds of fields.

Also...I'd look for the areas she shines in and try to find ways for her to be able to express her gifts--her knowledge that impresses adults, how can she use that in rewarding ways that let her see her unique giftedness and blessings? No one knows everything and can do everything, but if she can learn adequate spelling and typing skills, spell-checker can take her far, and then writing won't have to hold her back in what she DOES know. It may take several heart-to-hearts over time to help her see this though.

Can her tutor be of help in this area of helping her see where she could get to, her potential?

Hang in there! Merry :-)

[Laurie4b]

She has been avoiding doing schoolwork. Since she has 5 younger siblings, it's easy for her to hide in her room and let me get distracted by them. She told me today that she is deliberately doing that (I didn't know if it was just happening or if it was deliberate) because she feels like she never makes any progress and she isn't getting anywhere. It really is not true - she is receiving 2x week tutoring and can now write in a beautiful cursive and can spell better (of course, she says that since she couldn't spell AT ALL before, that isn't saying much).

She told me she doesn't like me reminding her of her schoolwork or talking about college. Basically, she feels dumb and like she will never learn anything. She hates that much younger children can spell things that she can't. She can write short sentences now, with spelling help, but hasn't yet learned to write even paragraphs. She has a long way to go, and agewise, should be starting high school next year. I bought her a special typing program that was recommended for dyslexia, but since she is avoiding her schoolwork, she hasn't made much progress in learning to type.

However, she is very intelligent and she knows a LOT in her area of interest - animals and the natural world. She impresses adults with what she knows.

I've tried telling her that if she is consistent with her schoolwork, she will get better. But then she brought up the multiplication facts. Basically, we spent a lot of time using Times Tables the Fun Way, she seemed to learn them, and then she started forgetting them even though we continued to review. Is she supposed to do flash cards every day for the rest of her life so she doesn't forget them? She's very behind in math because of this issue. I have no problem with her using a calculator though.

I don't know what to do. I need her to just come do her schoolwork when it's scheduled. She says all we do are subjects she's bad at. That's not true, but she is stuck in a very negative rut. I thought of giving her a consequence, but then I feel like I am punishing her for having dyslexia.

It doesn't much help that dh has it too and feels the same way about school and has not finished college because of it. He feels like he cannot learn, and now dd is saying the same thing. For years I have tried to get him to see that he DOES know a lot about the subjects he is interested in and so he is able to learn, and now I feel like I have to say the same thing to her.

I feel like high school is all about maximizing strengths, but how can we do that when she still has SO much to remediate???

Does anyone have some advice? TIA!

It sounds like the most important thing for you to tackle is hope. http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/07/nobel.prize.mom.telomeres/index.html one of the latest Nobel prize winners has dyslexia. There is a much higher percentage of dyslexics among entrepreneurs than among the general population. Dyslexia is not a condition that can't be overcome, but you have to have hope.

Are you able to give her the one-on-one time she needs? How well remediated is she in reading? Does she have problems with rapid naming, phonemic awareness, visual issues?

Plan for work-arounds. Sit with her until she can keyboard. The program Ginger is on sale right now at Homeschool Buyers' Coop until Dec 15th. It sounds really good for someone like your dd. People use stuff like this all the time IRL. There is even voice-activated software, where you talk and the computer types what you're saying.

If she has rapid naming plus other issues, she may need electronic texts, but few people have the level of dyslexia that warrants that. Still, it's available.

As you already know, calculators are fine for doing math. They are allowed on college entrance tests like the ACT, etc.

[cathmom]

we did all these things for hours a day, starting at age 2. hours. for years. we made them fun. we varied them. she never really realized that this wasn't the way everyone did school until her little sister started learning. it took us 6 years.

we didn't do spelling for the sake of spelling. we didn't do composition. we didn't do dictation. (well, we did, but it was her dictating to me so i could type it out for her).

we modified all school work so that she wasn't writing much at all until her reading fluency came up to speed. then it all unfolded from there. now she writes very well. her spelling has reached the point where spellcheck has half a hope of offering good suggestions, and she has enough word recognition that she can recognize the correct spelling, most of the time.
she is doing an online writing course at writeathome.com.

i'm thinking maybe you could do many of the "little kid" things with her, but with her doing it to "teach" a younger sibling. and i'd encourage her to explore her areas of interest (that is one thing dh's folks did really well).

its a hard road, and she's lucky to have you!
ann

She reads pretty well and she enjoys reading. She was only 2 grade levels behind on reading and is probably caught up or close now. I do read to her also and she listens to books on tape.

I have The Gift of Dyslexia. I will have to look at it again to see if I think anything in there will help her writing.

She takes ballet and is very good at it. She knows cursive and is receiving Orton-Gillingham tutoring. I don't require her to write for her schoolwork. She likes to copy things from books she is reading and gets writing practice that way.

How did you know to start with your dd with she was 2?

She does like to help with the younger ones and reads to them a lot. We haven't done spelling as such for years because she cannot remember the words.

Thank you for your comments!

[cathmom]

What subjects does she feel she is good at? Is there a way you could alternate--ie, have her do one subject she's struggling with, and then as a "reward" she gets to do the subject she's good at. Go back and forth like that.

Right now she is avoiding everything LOL. Most of the work I want to do with her is not stuff that she is bad at. She's not even bad at math, just behind.

Could she record answers instead of writing them for some subjects?

I don't require her to write to do any of our work.

Is there a way you can set your other children up with more independent work--something like with workboxes (link to pics & description in my signature), so that you can make your 13 yo more of a focus? At least for the rest of this school year, and then you could re-evaluate what you need to do for next year?

Thank you for this suggestion. I am considering ways to do this.

What things can you do to lighten her load--are there subjects that could be cut to focus on a few crucial things right now? Can more books be done on audio so she can learn without as much reading? Can she do tests or reports orally while she is working on her writing and spelling skills elsewhere?

I'm not requiring a whole lot of "school" type work. But yes, I think she would benefit from focusing on less subjects. It might make it less overwhelming.

3 years ago my son was spelling ask, aic--he thought the C could make both sounds in a word, and that sometimes extra vowels are thrown in "just because." 2 years ago he routinely wrote "form" instead of "from." He has made incredible progress with an Orton Gillingham program (we're using All About Spelling), and your daughter can too, but she's right, it's time and work. I think I'd agree with her--she's right that it's hard, and that it takes time, and that progress isn't nearly as fast as she'd like it to be.

BUT...what would she like life to look like in 5 years? Would she like things to be the same struggle they are today, or would she like to have made some significant progress in areas like typing, spelling, writing etc...? What's important to her--maybe emailing with friends or relatives is something she'd like to do without embarrassment--if she does nothing about doing her work, she won't get there. See if you can put your finger on what she would like to accomplish--ask her if she didn't have dyslexia, what would she like to be able to do--and then see if you can help her accomplish that goal.

I tried that - I'll try again and maybe she will be more receptive!

Have you seen the lists that are out there of famous people with dyslexia--even some writers! Scientists--all kinds of fields.

I have seen these lists. She hasn't. I think sometimes reading these lists might make a dyslexic feel like it's not OK to just be normal. I will look for a scientist though, that might help her.

Also...I'd look for the areas she shines in and try to find ways for her to be able to express her gifts--her knowledge that impresses adults, how can she use that in rewarding ways that let her see her unique giftedness and blessings? No one knows everything and can do everything, but if she can learn adequate spelling and typing skills, spell-checker can take her far, and then writing won't have to hold her back in what she DOES know. It may take several heart-to-hearts over time to help her see this though.

I agree. I would like her to volunteer at our vet and will be contacting them about that. And possibly look into other areas of natural history where she could shine.

Can her tutor be of help in this area of helping her see where she could get to, her potential?

I will talk to her. Thanks! Great idea!

Hang in there! Merry :-)

Thanks for replying!

[cathmom]

It sounds like the most important thing for you to tackle is hope.
You have hit the nail on the head! She was despairing the day we talked.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/07/nobel.prize.mom.telomeres/index.html one of the latest Nobel prize winners has dyslexia. There is a much higher percentage of dyslexics among entrepreneurs than among the general population. Dyslexia is not a condition that can't be overcome, but you have to have hope.

Are you able to give her the one-on-one time she needs? It is difficult, however, she is receiving one-on-one tutoring with an O-G tutor.

How well remediated is she in reading? She reads pretty well, and I think that her comprehension is good. She enjoys reading for pleasure as well.

Does she have problems with rapid naming, phonemic awareness, visual issues? She has no visual issues. She does have problems with rapid naming and phonemic awareness. I looked over her testing to check on the rapid naming and it says, "Her Rapid Naming score could not be calculated due to excessive errors during one of the subtests." The subtest was Rapid Letter Naming.

Plan for work-arounds. Sit with her until she can keyboard. The program Ginger is on sale right now at Homeschool Buyers' Coop until Dec 15th. It sounds really good for someone like your dd. People use stuff like this all the time IRL. There is even voice-activated software, where you talk and the computer types what you're saying.

I had been thinking of voice activated software as something for later, when she needs to do more writing of papers and such. But maybe we should consider it now.

If she has rapid naming plus other issues, she may need electronic texts, but few people have the level of dyslexia that warrants that. Still, it's available.

What do you mean by "electronic texts"?

As you already know, calculators are fine for doing math. They are allowed on college entrance tests like the ACT, etc.

Thanks for your reply! I am curious to know more about why the Rapid Naming score is so significant.

[Laurie4b]

Thanks for your reply! I am curious to know more about why the Rapid Naming score is so significant.

Right now, there are no research-based therapies for improving rapid naming, which is the ability to get something out of your head quickly. Because there is no clear way to remediate, it can really hold a kid back, especially if combined with phonemic awareness and/or visual problems.

[LizzyBee]

Right now, there are no research-based therapies for improving rapid naming, which is the ability to get something out of your head quickly. Because there is no clear way to remediate, it can really hold a kid back, especially if combined with phonemic awareness and/or visual problems.

Laurie,

Is this related to slow processing speed? Thanks.

[merry gardens]

I looked over her testing to check on the rapid naming and it says, "Her Rapid Naming score could not be calculated due to excessive errors during one of the subtests." The subtest was Rapid Letter Naming.


Did she have severe trouble with rapid naming of all things or was it primarily rapid naming of letters? As basic as alphabet letter names may seem, some dyslexic children really don't know the alphabet well. She may still have problems recalling names of various other things, but if she's particularly slow with the letters alphabet, you might want to explore how well she knows the alphabet.

Perhaps more important than the names of letters are the sounds they make. People with phonemic awareness issues may also have some confusion recognizing if some phenomes are different or the same.

Since she's working with an O-G tutor, does the tutor have any advice? Can the tutor do some remedial work to help her recall letter names quickly? Has the tutor checked (or can he check) to determine if your daughter recognizes the difference between various phonome sounds?

[Laurie4b]

Laurie,

Is this related to slow processing speed? Thanks.

This answer is a guess:
The processing speed tests on the WISC-IV involve writing as well as the rapid mental processing, so some kids may score low on processing speed who can think quickly but whose writing is impaired.
Likewise, there may be kids who can think visually & write quickly, but who can't "pull things out of the file" verbally quickly.
But in general, my guess is that there is correlation.

[LizzyBee]

This answer is a guess:
The processing speed tests on the WISC-IV involve writing as well as the rapid mental processing, so some kids may score low on processing speed who can think quickly but whose writing is impaired.
Likewise, there may be kids who can think visually & write quickly, but who can't "pull things out of the file" verbally quickly.
But in general, my guess is that there is correlation.

Thank you.