Notgrass Expolring America need advice on use [Archive] - The Well-Trained Mind Forums (aka Hive Mind)

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rockala

12-03-2009, 06:14 AM

Kristine out of lurking

12-03-2009, 09:26 AM

Hello,
>>>>I would love advice on use of this program and if you think the program is a worthwhile investment of time. It looks really good online but I do not have the books, I think reading the documents could be a really good idea for getting things to stick if it is done right.

>>>>Notgrass document book- has this been a good helpful thing- or is it cumbersome to get through.

>>>>I may use it for English for my 8th grader, but my ninth is in Potter School English. I hear the whole thing is 3 hours per day, that is why I am thinking just history for ninth grade dd and just one book since we are late in the year and I do not have the book yet. I think we could give it 45 to an hour a day for high school.

>>>>I may consider bible as we have not found one we really like- anyone know how long that portion takes.

My 9th grader is using Notgrass American History this year. *I* love it. She hates it. In talking with other friends who are using this (some currently, some in the past), our consensus is that it's a terrific curriculum, very informative, very thought provoking--for us 40-something moms.

My dd finds it tedious. She's an avid reader, always has been, but this bores her. It never lets up, it's a lot of reading (the text). She would glaze over as she began reading, not able to pay attention. She'd skim though the lesson just to find the answers (to the Q&A) book, but still have no idea of what she'd read. She finally asked me to read it to her. That's been hard too, but I'm determined to get through it this year (hey, I'm the mom, I like it!). So we read every lesson, she answers and we discuss the questions when we come across them, and then we discuss them again when the chapter is done. It's working.

The documents book is a terrific addition. However, many of the readings are extremely difficult and, in my opinion, pointless. I skim through each assignment to determine if I'll have dd read it or not. Others are great, and there is a wide variety.

We'd planned early on to sub another writing curriculum. Each week in Notgrass, the student is given three options and told to choose one. It assumes the student is very able in research and opinion papers. There is no other information; YOU are the sole determiner if your child completed the assignment. That was a little overwhelming to me.

Early on, we dropped the Bible credit. Before we began the curriculum, I knew I wouldn't be assigning the verse memorizations. The Bible lessons were very vague and they often had me stumped. One chapter a week is devoted to Biblical history and how it ties into American history; we are continuing to read those, since it's part of the main text. I can't see that the Bible portion of the curriculum would take an entire hour per day. I would never recommend this, even as written in its entirety, as a Bible credit; it lacks far too much.

The additional book reads have been good. The first book was The Scarlet Letter, and Hawthorne is a hard read. Everything since then has been easier and more enjoyable for dd.

If I were in this position with an 8th grader (half a year left), I'd assign only good living history books and discuss...maybe include a timeline, writing assignments, or whatever else is an effective tool for that child.

So. I LOVE Notgrass (well, not the Bible portion). I have learned a LOT. Unfortunately, it's been our big bomb this year. For those who kids can effectively work through this curriculum, I salute you! But it's been a poor fit for my dd, and I'm sure it won't work down the road for my ds either.

(Yikes, this is probably more than you ever wanted!)

mom2paul

12-03-2009, 09:58 AM

We're using Notgrass this year and DS loves it. We are also adding in Sonlight 100 literature and some of the notes from their IG along with Hakim's books which are not exactly high school material, but they are a good survey of the time period.

I do agree that the Bible component is insufficient, at least in my view, however, I use have DS expound upon the Bible lesson. (I also use Balancing the Sword and various cd/dvd/sermons, for bible, along with good old Bible reading).

Regarding the History component - - in addition to the assignments in the book, I have DS write essays where I feel more depth is needed. We add dates to our timeline and map the pertinent areas being covered.

Re: the Lit component -- we are still in the beginning of the text, and have only read Scarlet Letter. It was a hard read for ds and we haven't finished it YET. I added the movie and other summaries of SLetter I found on the internet. We will also read Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Giver, To Kill a Mockingbird, Life of Frederick Douglas.

While DS loves Notgrass, I am seeing that once again, I wish there were more. There is so much to American History and Notgrass could have added more detail re: the Indians for example. IMO it was kind of skimmed over.

What I do love so far about Notgrass is the coverage re: government and the reading assignments in American Voices. It is rich with poetry, hymns, and documents relative to this period of time.

creekland

12-03-2009, 09:59 AM

I've had two of my boys do both Notgrass World and Notgrass US. Both absolutely loved it. They did all the readings, some of the writings, and yes, we didn't count the Bible credit either, but they did it for fun.

I don't think it took my boys more than an hour a day to complete (in general - maybe more when they did the writings). I don't actually teach my highschoolers - they are independent learners, so I haven't read much of the books myself. What I did read I was impressed with. In discussions about various time periods my boys have been well-informed - and they remember a bit (a key 'plus' to me).

For what it's worth, my oldest is not a reader in general, but loves history. (He really had to work to complete the English reading portions.) My middle son is a reader - very much so - and history is 'ok.' Both loved the program and highly recommend it. My current 8th grader will start Notgrass next year - but he'll probably start with gov't so he can do it with my middle son.

Edited to add: We also use History Channel shows (and equivalent) to go more in depth on some areas. It's a very good combo.

Lori D.

12-04-2009, 12:10 PM

Hello,
I would love advice on use of this program and if you think the program is a worthwhile investment of time. It looks really good online but I do not have the books, I think reading the documents could be a really good idea for getting things to stick if it is done right.

We were using SL as a book list but I can see now I need more than that for history high school level and although we have liked SL books, some we do not care for... Notgrass document book- has this been a good helpful thing- or is it cumbersome to get through... I hear the whole thing is 3 hours per day, that is why I am thinking just history for ninth grade dd and just one book since we are late in the year and I do not have the book yet. I think we could give it 45 to an hour a day for high school. I may consider bible as we have not found one we really like- anyone know how long that portion takes...

We are enjoying using Notgrass's American History this year, doing only the history component and definitely finding it worth the cost just for that. We are doing something different for Bible, and are making our own American Lit. course, and are overlapping with a few of the books used for the Notgrass English. I think you will miss a lot if you only do one volume, and I don't think it would be worth the cost just to do part of the program -- I'd highly recommend waiting until a time when you can do the whole program over one year.

What "sold" me on the program was the source documents volume "American Voices", and it has definitely met my expectations -- it has been a wonderful resource, having all the source documents I was likely to want to look at in one volume! We are also very much enjoying a break from the secular history textbook we used the past 2 years and getting a Christian perspective with our history this year. In every year of history, though, we always add a variety of other books to make sure we are getting various perspectives and worldviews about historical events.

As far as how much time does it take:
We read 4 of the 5 weekly chapters (the 5th chapter is the Bible lesson chapter), sometimes skim that 5th chapter, and we read about 3/4 of the source documents in the American Voices volume. We also read aloud from other books, and our two DSs solo read various historical fiction and non-fiction works (many are on Sonlight lists). We also discuss it all aloud together. That takes us about 4 hours a week (but bear in mind, that is because we are NOT doing Notgrass's English or Bible, but we ARE adding in other history resources).

The two-volume textbook is written at about an 8th-9th grade level, so it is not at all hard for a student to read on their own. Some of the source documents are written in formal, older language / style and would be a bit rough for a young high school student, so you would probably want to do those together.

As far as the Notgrass document book:
The American Voices book is quite easy to use or skip selections as you choose. Some of the longer writings are already excerpted for you to make it easier to get to the important parts. This book was why we bought the program, and it has been great. I love the wide variety of types of writings, speeches, poetry, essays, governmental documents, etc. When we get into the 20th century, instead of reading some of the speeches, I'll be looking for recordings of them online so we can hear the actual people giving the actual speeches. But the American Voices has been great for those pre-recording days!

As far as the Notgrass Bible portion:
Can't comment, as we're not using it.

As far as the Notgrass English portion:
While we are not using it, I did look it over carefully. I would say this does NOT qualify for an English course credit or even a literature course credit. I would call it "history companion reading." It consists of a reading list, a schedule of how many pages to read by when, just a very few comprehension and the rare discussion question per book, and with several writing assignment ideas for each work. There is a brief introduction to each work/author. There is no composition or grammar instruction or practice. There is no vocabulary work. There is no literary analysis instruction, questions, or guidance.

Instead, we've made our own American Lit. course as part of our high school English; we have included some of the works (and in a few cases, just excerpts) in Notgrass, but I wanted a wider scope of authors, covering more ethnic backgrounds, and more 20th century works. We also go much deeper into literary analysis and in writing about the works.

As far as Government:
We're using a used copy I got for $5 of the secular American Government textbook put out by Great Source. (http://www.greatsource.com/store/ProductCatalogController?cmd=Browse&subcmd=LoadDetail&level1Code=07&level2Code=070&level3Code=028&frontOrBack=F&sortProductsBy=SEQ_TITLE&division=G01) It's been GREAT doing government at the same time as American history as there is so much overlap. There's a ton of information in it, we can pick and choose what we want to cover, and we are getting the extra benefit of using it as notetaking practice.

After reading a lot of past threads on Government curriculum, I decided against the Notgrass Gov't as several people expressed disappointment that it was not as good as the American History, or didn't cover as much as they'd hoped. After reading the past WTM threads, it was a toss up for me between the Great Source textbook or the Complete Idiot's Guide to American Government, which has also gotten great reviews. For fun, and to inject a very different perspective, we'll also be reading Richard Maybury's "Are you Liberal, Conservative, or Confused?" (He has strong libertarian leanings, and all his political views are based around economics and a free enterprise market.) The free curriculum at Hippocampus is also helpful: http://www.hippocampus.org/American%20Government;jsessionid=687DEBDCA9AB33DF9 A86B8E4B278E94F

Hope something here is of help -- and BEST of luck in your decision! Warmest regards, Lori D.