Needed: Appropriate punishment for insolence

[nuthouse]

My 12yo boy thinks it is continually funny to smart mouth my cooking. In every other way he is polite and respectful except when I am in the kitchen. Today, my cooking rated as "crimes against humanity". I'm thinking he doesn't know how good he actually has it. Got any ideas?

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Cooking his own meals without the privilege of eating what you have fixed for a while? Then maybe he'll appreciate it a little more?

[Cadam]

If it's so bad he should not be subjected to eating it. A 12yo should know better and missing a meal won't kill him, but it might teach him to be polite!

[Daisy]

Yeh, sounds like he needs

KP duty

or let him cook for the week (obviously no fast food, no convience foods, no sugar)

And hey, if he is soooo much better at it after a week, then he can do it permanently.

[Lisa in Jax]

Cooking his own meals without the privilege of eating what you have fixed for a while? Then maybe he'll appreciate it a little more?
I would agree with Melissa and add that he ought to not only cook his own meals, he also ought to plan the meals, shopping, etc., for the WHOLE family for the week as a consequence for insolence.

At the very next meal, serve everyone but him. When he asks/complains, say (nicely), "Honey, I love you too much to feed you food that constitutes a 'crime against humanity.'" Feel free to fix yourself (insert name of a healthy but boring food). I'd be sure this is not something he's thrilled to have -- just something basic and nutritious.

After lunch/dinner, let him know that you're sorry that he does not realize how much effort you put into meal planning. Therefore, you expect him to learn it for himself. Toward that end, he will plan the nutritious, cost-effective meals and snacks for the whole family for one week. Let him know that he has to check out what you have in the cabinets before making a menu and a shopping list for the week that meets the family's budget for meals. You'll have say-so in how this goes, of course, but let him struggle -- don't make it too easy. Let him realize that cooking healthy affordable meals is a challenge of organization and creativity and he might be more appreciative.

For the rudeness, I'd also make him do a "hassle chore" for being disrespectful with the words he chose. IMHO, there are two issues here: disrespect and being ungrateful. The hassle chore is for disrespect; the meal planning is or being ungrateful.

HIH,

Lisa

[Danestress]

My 12yo boy thinks it is continually funny to smart mouth my cooking. In every other way he is polite and respectful except when I am in the kitchen. Today, my cooking rated as "crimes against humanity". I'm thinking he doesn't know how good he actually has it. Got any ideas?

First I would just tell him very seriously that it has to stop. I would not act angry, but I would tell him that sometimes people try to be funny by throwing "funny" insults at each other, but that in our family, we choose not to insult each other for our own amusement. Tell him that you don't enjoy it and that it needs to stop. Get him to give you examples of the kinds of insulting things he has said. If he can't or won't, then you give him some examples. And tell him that he will regret continuing and that YOU will be the decider on what is insulting, so not to take any risks.

And then the next time he does it, I would not say a word. But later, when he wants a ride somewhere or to use your phone or computer or tv, or when he needs money for something (hopefully one of these things will occur in the next 24 hours) I would tell him that people who you have insulted tend to not lend you their "stuff" and that he can't use my money, time, car .... whatever .... that day.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If it's so bad he should not be subjected to eating it. A 12yo should know better and missing a meal won't kill him, but it might teach him to be polite!

I agree. Just calmly don't serve him the meal or calmly take his plate away, dump the food in the trash, and excuse him from the table. Hunger will not make him die.

No one deserves to be insulted like that, and no kid deserves to be allowed to insult someone like that without serious consequences. And in particular, those who disguise insults and cruel speech inside "humor" need extra attention. "I was just joking!" "Yeah? Well, sorry, it's not very funny." Marriages and friendships end for people who don't know the difference between funny and cruel. Good on you for teaching him this early.

[OnTheBrink]

OOH, two of my biggest pet peeves: ingratitude and disrespect.

My first temptation would be to serve him grubs or something else disgusting that people actually eat in other parts of the world. He wants to see a crime against humanity? Let him eat what the folks in third world countries eat. Or, let him eat nothing at all.

As for the disrespect, does his father speak to you like that? (no need to answer that out loud if you don't want to) If not, then I think Dad needs to step in and tell Junior that no one speaks to his wife like that. Kids get into this mindset that Mom is just some sort of fixture that does the work and they don't get that Mom is a woman, a person, someone's wife, someone that is dear to someone else, and is highly deserving of respect and honor and NOT insults in the kitchen.

Anyway, obviously I have strong feelings on the issue, so take my perspective fwiw. :)

[Amy in Orlando]

OOH, two of my biggest pet peeves: ingratitude and disrespect.

My first temptation would be to serve him grubs or something else disgusting that people actually eat in other parts of the world. He wants to see a crime against humanity? Let him eat what the folks in third world countries eat. Or, let him eat nothing at all.

As for the disrespect, does his father speak to you like that? (no need to answer that out loud if you don't want to) If not, then I think Dad needs to step in and tell Junior that no one speaks to his wife like that. Kids get into this mindset that Mom is just some sort of fixture that does the work and they don't get that Mom is a woman, a person, someone's wife, someone that is dear to someone else, and is highly deserving of respect and honor and NOT insults in the kitchen.

Anyway, obviously I have strong feelings on the issue, so take my perspective fwiw. :)

I agree with Michelle. I'd probably also give him at least a full day's worth of kitchen duty - planning, cooking, cleaning, serving.

[*anj*]

I agree. Just calmly don't serve him the meal or calmly take his plate away, dump the food in the trash, and excuse him from the table. Hunger will not make him die.

No one deserves to be insulted like that, and no kid deserves to be allowed to insult someone like that without serious consequences. And in particular, those who disguise insults and cruel speech inside "humor" need extra attention. "I was just joking!" "Yeah? Well, sorry, it's not very funny." Marriages and friendships end for people who don't know the difference between funny and cruel. Good on you for teaching him this early.

D--
As I read down the thread I started thinking of my response. I was going to say "Pam in TN would say that if the food isn't good enough for him, please oh please do not force the boy to eat it. You must tell him that you would never want him to eat anything that is a crime against humanity. You should then present him with his very own loaf of bread and jar of peanut butter, telling him that hopefully this food will meet with his approval."

At least that's what I thought she'd say. Of course the real Pam said something even better. But I agree with both Pams. The real one and the one who I impersonated.

Send that boy here. The other night I served leftover pork shoulder simmered in marinara sauce and I threw half a pan of leftover baked macaroni and cheese into it. I told them it was pork and pasta soup. They believed me and ate it. Which was good, considering that two days before they'd turned their noses up at the mac and cheese telling me that it was too cheesy and smelled funny.

Oh yeah. Good times. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/angry031.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/%5Burl=http://www.freesmileys.org%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/angry031.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5D)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

At least that's what I thought she'd say. Of course the real Pam said something even better. But I agree with both Pams. The real one and the one who I impersonated.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/angry031.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/%5Burl=http://www.freesmileys.org%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/angry031.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5D)

Oh, I said that. And then I erased it, because I worry that people think I'm a horrible person sometimes. But I'd do it. And I wouldn't hand them peanut butter, either. You're much nicer than I would be.

[Joanne]

My 12yo boy thinks it is continually funny to smart mouth my cooking. In every other way he is polite and respectful except when I am in the kitchen. Today, my cooking rated as "crimes against humanity". I'm thinking he doesn't know how good he actually has it. Got any ideas?

If a child of mine insulted my time, care and food, they'd quickly be relieved of the burden of eating it and the company of the family.

I'd take away the plate and send the child out to do undone chores.

They'd get another chance at the next scheduled meal/snack.

[Laurie4b]

Is this just 12 year old boy dumb humor? It sure sounds like it is, especially given the rest of what you said about him being polite and respectful. I wouldn't take this seriously if it came from one of my boys. When it's just dumb humor, I fight humor with humor, good naturedly. (Really, they mature.) However, I joke about my own cooking in the first place telling them that when they are away from home and missing "Mom's home cooking, all they have to do is burn the brocolli and they can recall their childhood days..." In some cultural niches, your son's opening remark would be considered the opening round in a game of humorous banter, with the "winner" the one that came up with the best "put down". They are not really meant as put-downs and everyone knows it. It's just a fun "war of words." It's possible that he's met some friends who do this. Personally, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is disrespect from his heart, as opposed to a 12 year old boy exploring the new social skill of exaggeration as humor.

If it's actually hurting your feelings, I think you need to tell him so. Share your heart and explore his. Is he truly intending to hurt you or show disrespect? If he is, then institute the logical consequences. If he isn't, then either joke along with him, or explain that you don't personally like that type of humor.

[Whisperlily]

Good answers! You'll have a lot of choices to fall back on if the one you try doesn't work. ;)

My question is... why does he pick on your cooking and nothing else? Erm, um... ahem... forgive me for asking, but as boys tend to follow their fathers... does DH comment on your cooking? Is he trying to be "adult" and follow his father in poking fun at something that Dad gets away with? My DS will sometimes say things in a certain tone, and I know exactly where it came from. The problem is, unlike their fathers who (hopefully) know the fine line between playfulness and disrespect, they can get confused. We talk about it and they're given some perspective on why/when/how what they heard differs from what they said.

And yes, at 12, the boy can feed himself if he complains. Maybe not well, but that just helps your cause, doesn't it. ;)

[Kelli in TN]

Sounds like you need to stop making the poor child eat your cooking.

Everytime he pulls this stunt he gets raw food. For the rest of that day and the next day. Raw carrot sticks, raw broccoli, raw cauliflower, raw apples, raw celery, raw, raw, raw. Mom can't mess up what she does not cook. Even a cook who commits crimes against humanity can chop veggies, right?

Really, it'll be a "cleansing" experience for him, in more ways than one.

[*anj*]

Pam said:
Oh, I said that. And then I erased it, because I worry that people think I'm a horrible person sometimes. But I'd do it. And I wouldn't hand them peanut butter, either. You're much nicer than I would be.

Kelli said:
Really, it'll be a "cleansing" experience for him, in more ways than one.

Now you guys know why you're two of my favorite people here!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif (http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/%5Burl=http://www.freesmileys.org%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/dance010.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5D)

[neesek]

My dh tells the story of when he was a teenager and he, his dad, and his best friend all ganged up on his mother and were pretty rude about the food she had fixed. The result: she went on strike for a week and refused to do any kind of cooking for them. At the time neither my dh nor his dad knew how to cook anything, so it was a long week for them. By the end of the week they were begging for forgiveness and begging her to start cooking again.

It's funny - my dh is now a wonderful cook, and in 13+ years of marriage, I don't think he has ever said a negative word about my cooking, and believe me I have served some real bombs! I think he learned his lesson well. :)

[Kate in Arabia]

My mom actually went on a permanent cooking strike. We have always been kind of a sarcastic family, and I guess it just got to be too much, although I can't really remember saying anything.. maybe it was because we wouldn't eat it? She tried to be innovative and do different things, and we just were not accepting it. As I recall the dish that broke the camel's back was spaghetti squash, which she tried to serve as a pasta substitute; now today I'd probably love that, but as an early teen, forget about it. And I can understand my mom's feelings, now, because I spend a good amount of time in the kitchen, I would be really unhappy if my family consistently refused to eat what I made or made faces, etc.

So, anyway, she stopped cooking, me and my dad gradually took over. To this day my dad does the cooking, except for parties or other occasions where large amounts of food are required.

I can't remember now who posted it, but I would first treat it as an intended joke and let ds know that while I appreciated his attempts at humor, he was crossing a line. If it persisted, then I would try other methods.

[Mrs Mungo]

My 12yo boy thinks it is continually funny to smart mouth my cooking. In every other way he is polite and respectful except when I am in the kitchen. Today, my cooking rated as "crimes against humanity". I'm thinking he doesn't know how good he actually has it. Got any ideas?

PB&J until he decides to eat without complaint and no meals with the family. I'd have him eat his sandwich while you were cooking and then send him to his room until the family is finished eating.

[nuthouse]

My question is... why does he pick on your cooking and nothing else? Erm, um... ahem... forgive me for asking, but as boys tend to follow their fathers... does DH comment on your cooking?

The problem with his father is that dearest Dad is a gourmet cook. We've had six weeks of Bon Appetit while I recovered from surgury. Now, it's my turn again and although I'm strong enough to cook, I am not up to proscuitto and melon for breakfast. Nor am I paying for that anymore. There is nothing "wrong" with my cooking....I'm just more Betty Crocker than Julia Child at this stage.

[nuthouse]

I fixed him good at lunch today......One Mickey D's hamburger, plenty of pickles and room temperature fries.....I did not cook his meal!
We ate corned beef, potatoes, carrots and cabbage. I think he'll be eating evening tea with us without complaint. ;)

[BMC]

when they say these crazy hurtful things like that. Was he being insolent or trying to be funny? (as in not trying to hurt).

If a withering look and a, "that isn't funny, it's hurtful." doesn't get through to him and stop the behavior - it would be major KP (I can envision peeling pounds of potatoes, triple rinsing spinach, hulling strawberries, seeding hot peppers, dicing onions, peeling and dicing garlic, peeling shrimp, filleting fish.... time consuming and/or smelly dirty jobs... organizing the pantry, weeding the veggie garden all season long) or planning meals for a week. If I made him cook the meals also, he would have to clean up after himself too. (My kids use every pot, pan & bowl when they cook and don't clean as they go.)

Picking on my cooking is a hot button for me. In 25 years of marriage, I have found that I absolutely HATE cooking on a daily basis. All the planning, shopping and preparing.... If I had my way we would be eating salad and sandwiches. DH is the pickiest eater (no ethnic foods, no spicy, few casseroles...) and he usually eats something just prior to dinner, or just after dinner. Like he doesn't rust my cooking to sustain life or something. Lately he has become too busy on Scouting night (Monday) getting ready so he doesn't have the time to eat with the family. The kids have picked up on his fussy eating (especially DD who doesn't want to eat regular meals and prefers junk foods), but DS is growing out of it.

[Eliana]

I think that a normally respectful child should get the benefit of the doubt. My instinct would be to sit down with my child, at a separate time, and talk about this. I would want to explain what I was hearing when s/he said things such as "x" or "y", and then I would want to hear what s/he was *trying* to communicate.

If this is what it sounds like - misguided attempts at humor - I would want to explain our family's position on disparaging humor. Some families are find with it, if it is done appropriately (My sister, who's been a Brit for the last 8 or 9 years, has described the dynamics she sees over there, and your son's comment, as Laurie4B, sounds just like an opening salvo in British male interaction!)... but it isn't okay in our family. And I would explain that, and our reasoning, very clearly.

At that point, I would expect contrition.. which would lead naturally to the where to we go from here portion of the conversation. I think some of the tone of this would be collaborative - how can I help you overcome this pattern you've created? But there would need to be some clear lines drawn.

If this has been going on for a while, I would expect to see some immediate improvements, but I would also give the child a chance to self correct - establish a reminder phrase and expect the child to apologize and rephrase or have whatever consequence I establishes.

If it is a new dynamic, I would expect a child of that age to be able to self-censor once s/he understood my expectations, and, as others have said, I think that a child who deliberately insults the cook or the cooking should leave the table without finishing the meal or, if the meal hasn't been served yet, not join the family for the meal at all. Because I do not support forcing a child to skip a meal, I would invite him/her out for some bread and cheese or some other non-glamorous, effort free food.


Personally, I am uncomfortable taking a punitive approach - it really doesn't match our parenting values - but I do believe in clear consequences for one's choices... sometimes the difference might seem to be only semantics, but I think there is a deeper difference in how we relate to our kids based on how we approach punishment/consequences.

I believe that by seeing our individual parenting choices in the larger context, we can better choose the options which reinforce our parenting goals, priorities, and values... whatever those might be.

[Whisperlily]

The problem with his father is that dearest Dad is a gourmet cook. We've had six weeks of Bon Appetit while I recovered from surgury. Now, it's my turn again and although I'm strong enough to cook, I am not up to proscuitto and melon for breakfast. Nor am I paying for that anymore. There is nothing "wrong" with my cooking....I'm just more Betty Crocker than Julia Child at this stage.

:lol: Sounds like my house growing up! My Dad would go shopping and come home with twice the bill my mom would.... and the food, oh, the rich, delicious, time consuming food.

But, you know what? I still love and remember my Mom's Betty Crocker meals. Some of them I've come to rely on, even though I CAN cook like my Dad, it's too expensive and not practical for everyday.

We never complained though. That's just how it was. My Dad never, ever complained about my mom's food either... that probably helped. ;)

[nestof3]

I would warn him one time that if he has anything but sincere praise or silence concerning your cooking, he will not eat at that meal. Final. And stick with it. The body can skip a meal or two and be perfectly fine.

I have more grace when they are young (like looks of disappointment and things like "oh, no -- green beans.), though I still teach them about this not being appropriate.

At 12, there should be no more of that.

If he really is just teasing, explain to him that it is hurtful -- and tell him to stop. From there on, contiuance of it is disobedience.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I believe that by seeing our individual parenting choices in the larger context, we can better choose the options which reinforce our parenting goals, priorities, and values... whatever those might be.

Ah, once again, dear lady, you prod me toward love and good works. Thank you.