Please, Please help: Behavioral issues with preschooler

[Laurel T.]

I need help. I have an extemely bright 4.5 yo. He is really an amazing child with the ability to think, talk, and imagine deeply. He enjoys the very few things that we do school wise. We do alot of art and craft type projects and alot of read alouds. Other than that we are working through some LA stuff that is probably below level for him. He has a lot of learning toys and manipulatives that we use pretty much daily. He spends alot of time outdoors. All in all he has a non-stessful life with two loving parents.

He is my oldest and so I have no experience with this homeschooling thing, but I would like to start doing a little more with him and I have some ideas already planned out. But, the problem is that he will not mind me and he ruins his own day with tantrums that scare me to death. I often wonder if he is having a psychotic episode or if he is just mad when he does not get his way. It all seems so irrational. He all of a sudden began hitting, bitting, screaming, etc. I do not feel like we can move forward with "academics" until we get some of these behavioral issues worked out. But, I honestly do not know where to begin. He has always been pretty mild in his behavior, but I have thought of him as highly sensitive. He has also had what the doctors called seizures in the past, but they were more like tremors to me. He has nightmares and he does not sleep enough for his age and activity level.

Everything will be going so well. He will have the biggest grin, running, playing and then suddenly he will get red in the face and a "fit" will begin. Any form of discipline that we have tried in the past does not help him and he will not accept our love and attention during these times. I am at a loss and looking for answers.

Thanks everyone for listening.

Laurel T.

[Mom2boys]

There is a thread right now on the Accelerated Learner board about impulse control that might be of help to you. I would post a link to it, but I don't know how. :confused:

[Laurel T.]

Thanks, I am on my way there now.

Laurel T.

[Karen sn]

1st thing that popped into my mind was have you tried fatty acids?
Also -Check out Dr. Doris Rapp.

http://www.drrapp.com/about.htm

[Claire]

Are you sure this is not a physical problem? I would consult with his doctor to see if he needs further evaluations for seizures, which can certainly influence personality and behavior.

[Laurel T.]

Are you sure this is not a physical problem? I would consult with his doctor to see if he needs further evaluations for seizures, which can certainly influence personality and behavior.

That is why this is such a tough issue. Because I do not know. The "seizures" stopped a little over a year ago. They were very mild, but happened pretty often. I think I will make an appointment with his M.D. He just went through so much with all of the testing. He remembers it in vivid detail 3 years later. I just was hoping to avoid that train, if maybe its just a discipline issue. No body told me parenting was going to be this hard.

1st thing that popped into my mind was have you tried fatty acids?
Also -Check out Dr. Doris Rapp.

Thanks for the info. I will check it out right now.

Laurel T.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that some children who have these outbursts actually scare themselves, and they get more extreme as they scared on top of angry. For that one of the things that really helps, oddly enough, is a long physical hug. This sometimes brings a child kind of back to himself.

I think that the main thing to do, though, is to project calm. You use a calm, cheerful voice and you help him to express his feelings in a way that is acceptable. Kids do not know how to say things differently unless they are shown.

So, for instance, he torques up for no apparent reason. You say, cheerfully, "You seem upset. I am sorry you are unhappy. If you were an animal what kind would you be?" Sometimes this will engage them enough so that they will pick a bear or something. Then you ask him to have the bear talk to another bear about how he feels. (This takes the intensity out of your interaction with him, and puts it between these two imaginary bears.) A lot of times something like this will enable him to give you enough clues to figure out what set him off. Then you can help him to know what to do instead.

Maybe he hurt himself. You could guide him to say, "Mommy, my finger hurts. Could you please help?" and show him that you would kiss it and get some ice for it. Or maybe he can't do something he wants to do, like draw a face that looks like the picture in his head. You can guide him to say, "I am frustrated! Can you please help me with this?" Then maybe you could help him to see the different pieces of a face, and different ways to draw a simple mouth, for instance. Or maybe he is disappointed because his train track came apart. You can suggest that he run around and around for a few laps in the yard to blow off steam, and then come in and have a snack and try again. (Snacks are crucial. Kids are hungry so often at this age.)

The key is the calm cheer, and teaching him what to do instead of blowing up. You will probably have to do this over and over.

As far as homeschooling is concerned, I would pick a time when he is very well rested, and I would keep things very short at this age. Also, I would read to him a lot. I would take him to nature parks and science museums, and play simple games with him, and get him some Kapla blocks and play with him with them. I would play music that you love, and foreign language folk songs. He really is pretty young.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

That is why this is such a tough issue. Because I do not know. The "seizures" stopped a little over a year ago. They were very mild, but happened pretty often. I think I will make an appointment with his M.D. He just went through so much with all of the testing. He remembers it in vivid detail 3 years later. I just was hoping to avoid that train, if maybe its just a discipline issue. No body told me parenting was going to be this hard.


Thanks for the info. I will check it out right now.

Laurel T.

Laurel, does anything trigger the tantrum? I mean, is he upset because he can't have a cookie, or is he running and jumping and playing and then simply "switches" without a stressor pushing him there?

[Laurel T.]

Laurel, does anything trigger the tantrum? I mean, is he upset because he can't have a cookie, or is he running and jumping and playing and then simply "switches" without a stressor pushing him there?


It really seems to be both. Tonight he did not want to get his hair washed, but sometimes he will be playing peacefully outside and he just loses it. Sometimes its from the minute he wakes up. Its very unpredictable.

You all do not know how much I appreciate your time. It means so much to have others to come to.

Laurel T.

[Mandamom]

has had some very crazy tantrums in her lifetime and what I have had to do was to isolate her in her room so she could "let it out" there where she wasn't disturbing anyone else (except for the screaming she was doing in her room <sigh>) because if I tried to engage her in talking to her, hugging or other physical comfort, guidance in how to act, ignoring her, etc. it made it worse, much worse.

So, she goes in her room and stays there until she is done and then she comes back and we get back with our day. (She could last kicking and screaming for over an hour at ages 3 and 4. She started tantrumming at 12 months and has for the most part stopped now that she's 7.5.

It sounds like you might have some medical concerns that need to be addressed, though. I just wanted to share this to let you know that each parent and child finds their own way through tantrums and this is what worked here, although it certainly didn't feel like it at the time.

[Laurel T.]

[QUOTE]So, for instance, he torques up for no apparent reason. You say, cheerfully, "You seem upset. I am sorry you are unhappy. If you were an animal what kind would you be?" Sometimes this will engage them enough so that they will pick a bear or something. Then you ask him to have the bear talk to another bear about how he feels. (This takes the intensity out of your interaction with him, and puts it between these two imaginary bears.) A lot of times something like this will enable him to give you enough clues to figure out what set him off. Then you can help him to know what to do instead.
/QUOTE]

This technique might work for him, because it will give him a chance to use his imagination. I will let you know how it works. I should have an update for you by about 7:00 in the morning. Surely he will have had one or two fits by then (LOL).

He is such a sweet and special kid.

Laurel T.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Have you tried speaking to him once he calms down? Sometimes the child himself can offer the best insights. Ask him some leading and very specific questions to try to get to the bottom of what is going on. My first reaction is that his behavior is different enough from what you describe as his usual MO that maybe you should get this checked out. But it may just be that he is trying something new to see what your reaction will be and needs an unbending unwillingness to tolerate it in response. It has been said that 4 is a real 'out of bounds' age, so I'm leaning toward the latter.

Once you've explained how tantrums are useless for getting what he wants...because you will never, ever, ever give him what he wants as long as he's screaming for it, so it isn't worth it to try...show him the better way to express dissatisfaction (no thanks, I really don't like that) or to ask for something. When my 2yo begins a tantrum, I get down on his level, hold his face gently and firmly between my open hands, furrow my eyebrows so he can see I'm serious without my needing to raise my voice, and I say in a quiet, deadly serious voice, "No screaming. (pause) No....Screaming. (pause) You don't get what you want when you scream. Use a nice voice and ask quietly for what you want so I can understand you better." He's had enough training to know that if he calms himself down and asks nicely with a please right away, he'll generally get what it is he's after.

If he really isn't open to alternative ways to deal with his frustrations, I would seek help. This board is so limited because we can't see how he's interacting with you.

Barb

[Laurel T.]

Have you tried speaking to him once he calms down? Sometimes the child himself can offer the best insights.

Yes. Sometimes he will talk to me about it and sometimes not. He broke my heart the other day. He had a full blown fit after he hit his sister. We talked about it and he said it was because he missed his dog (that recently died). He said if he couldn't have his dog back he did not want to live in this house anymore and that he would "destroy" it. We really do try to help him with his grief and anger, but he is still upset about things that happened long ago. I have been reluctant to enter into the mental health system, but if it gets worse we may have to go that route.

But, always in the back of my mind, I think he is so little and maybe all of this is within the range of normal.

[Carol in Cal.]

Kids in tantrums seem so out of control, but often they have more control that it appears. They just really, really don't realize how over the top they seem, and they don't know what to do instead.

I remember watching a little 4 year old start screaming because his mother had told him that he had to leave in 5 minutes. He was red and in despair and making a LOT of noise. I told him quietly, "Did you know that you get to make a choice now?" He ignored me and kept on screaming. Then I said, "You can choose to feel bad about needing to leave, or you can choose to feel good about being able to play for 5 more minutes, and have some fun. Which one do you pick?" Believe it or not, he shut up and played, and left more calmly than I had ever seen.

What had given me the idea for this is that I remembered saying to DD several times, "Crying does not work." And she, who seemed convincingly distraught, suddenly stopped crying and said calmly back, "Then what DOES work, Mommy?" I could not believe that she could pull herself together like that.

Sometimes they are not as OC as they appear.

[Laurel T.]

if I tried to engage her in talking to her, hugging or other physical comfort, guidance in how to act, ignoring her, etc. it made it worse, much worse

This has been my experience in the past. It helps to hear that your situation got better.

I also think that I get super sensitive sometimes because of the medical problems he has had in the past. I have a hard time drawing the line between discipline issues and potential medical issues.

Laurel T.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

This has been my experience in the past. It helps to hear that your situation got better.

I also think that I get super sensitive sometimes because of the medical problems he has had in the past. I have a hard time drawing the line between discipline issues and potential medical issues.

Laurel T.

Do you think you could be unwittingly contributing by treating it as a medical issue rather than a behavioral issue?

Barb

[Laurel T.]

I think to some degree this might be true. But, I have really tried to determine appropriate ways of dealing with the tantrums whether or not there is a medical issue. Does that make sense? Either way he has to learn to control his outbursts and I see myself as trying to help him in that. So, I don't think I deal with it much differently as far as how I handle him, but I do worry much more about it. I am more afraid to make a mistake in the way "I" handle it.

Thank you for taking the time to ask these questions. It really helps me to think through some things.

Laurel T.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

I think to some degree this might be true. But, I have really tried to determine appropriate ways of dealing with the tantrums whether or not there is a medical issue. Does that make sense? Either way he has to learn to control his outbursts and I see myself as trying to help him in that. So, I don't think I deal with it much differently as far as how I handle him, but I do worry much more about it. I am more afraid to make a mistake in the way "I" handle it.

Thank you for taking the time to ask these questions. It really helps me to think through some things.

Laurel T.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. My 8yo has always been the difficult one. She has many issues processing sensory information and it makes it very difficult to tease the behavior from the confusion she is experiencing. Which is why I asked. It's always easier to give advice than to live it ;)

[Whisperlily]

Yes. Sometimes he will talk to me about it and sometimes not. He broke my heart the other day. He had a full blown fit after he hit his sister. We talked about it and he said it was because he missed his dog (that recently died). He said if he couldn't have his dog back he did not want to live in this house anymore and that he would "destroy" it. We really do try to help him with his grief and anger, but he is still upset about things that happened long ago. I have been reluctant to enter into the mental health system, but if it gets worse we may have to go that route.

But, always in the back of my mind, I think he is so little and maybe all of this is within the range of normal.


It's hard to say what's going on here, but he is so very young.

I have one son who doesn't understand himself very well. He's not very aware of why he feels what he feels. From a young age I've had to talk him through things you'd think he would "pick up" naturally. You talk about him remembering things, and "feeling" deeply about things that happened a long time ago. Could it be that he's feeling the same *feelings* and only knows to associate those particular emotions with that one event? Perhaps he was feeling sad/angry/confused and didn't know exactly why. If you asked him, he would automatically associate those feelings with the last time he remembers knowing the cause. I'd be willing to bet that he's not so upset about *those* things, but they're an example of his feelings that he knows how to express. If it were my son, and I knew it wasn't the REAL reason, I might suggest... "You're angry, but it's not about the dog this time. Let's try and figure out what happened today."

We expect them to know... but sometimes they don't! Sometimes one thing will trigger a flood of emotion, and by the time the whole ordeal (escalated by not yet knowing how to handle those emotions) is done, their minds have gone through so many thoughts and reactions that the real reason is long lost.

Sometimes we have to help them FIND the reason... not by asking, but by carefully asking "detective" questions. What were you doing in your room with your sister? "Playing with my puzzle." Did you like playing with your puzzle? "Yes, but I'm missing one of the pieces, and it's part of Bob the Builder's nose... and did you know that Lofty is funny? He likes to..." (oops, that's a typical 4.5 year old for you... already forgot what you were asking in the first place... just like he forgot what the tantrum was about when it started. ;) ) Usually you can narrow it down to something. Maybe something very small. "I'm missing a puzzle piece." Walk them through the proper response. Sometimes they have to be *told* things we think they should know by now. Help them *understand* why they're feeling what they were feeling, without getting too dramatic about it. Offer solutions.

Also, preschoolers that age aren't equipped with an emotion *regulator*. They're often either ON, or OFF. Something small may recieve the same reaction as something huge, because they can't assess the appropriate amount of emotion that each situation deserves. Let's say Jimmy's crying, throwing a tantrum, screaming, kicking and definitely angry. "Jimmy, what's wrong?" "My pencil is BROKEN!" followed by hysterics. Sometimes a simple (but genuine) "Oh, my! You're pretty frustrated. How would you feel if your (insert ultimate favorite toy) broke? I guess if something had to break, it's good that we can replace it." Help them put things into perspective. Give them a scale to go by... but keep it on their terms, within their world. Don't tell them about the starving children in Africa, when he's hungry... (not that you would,) at least not at that age... Things outside his daily life are too foreign and he can't relate.

It's interesting to hear my son now. He talks to himself a little, and he talks to his siblings. It's so *neat* to hear his thought process, and how he's learned some tools to assess situations and how to try and regulate his responses. Of course, with my boy, he's either on, or off... it's a constant learning game with him. He's got some other issues going on, on top of the normal learning curve. He's taught me a lot, and the learning has just begun. ;)

[abbeyej]

It's *very* hard to know from a couple of posts on a message board whether this is "medical" or "discipline" (or both/and)... But I know when I read your first post, there was a "ding-ding-ding!" sound going on in my head. You so described my ds when he was younger! Very bright, very sweet, tried hard to please, generally polite and well-mannered, but a SWITCH would flip and he would have the most frightening, awful tantrums. Far more than was reasonable, more violent, longer... sigh. And I did often worry that it was *me* -- that I was doing something wrong. And I tried to be as calm and consistent as I could (and he was my first and I was young, and I'm sure I wasn't nearly as "calm and consistent" as I could have been), but I also knew that this was beyond me, beyond both of us.

What got to me was the fact that ds genuinely seemed to be out of control when this happened. I remember looking in his eyes and realizing that he was as frightened and distressed as I was.

Right around his 4th birthday, we discovered his food allergies. Not because of the behavioral issues, but because of physical symptoms he was having. (He had always had lots of skin irritations and minor unexplained rashes, loose stools, constant reflux as a baby, circles under his eyes, etc.) It wasn't till he ended up in the ER with anaphylaxis that we finally got the diagnoses we needed.

We took him off all of the offending foods. It was a *lot* more than I would ever have taken out with "trial and error". He was allergic to several foods that appear on even the most restrictive "elimination diets" I've seen advocated.

It was hard. It was hard mentally, it was hard emotionally... Luckily, perhaps because he was finally feeling better, perhaps for fear of another ER trip, ds never fought me on the food restrictions.

And within a month, I had a friend (another mom and a family therapist) comment that she hadn't seen him throw a tantrum in weeks. I started thinking about it, and sure enough, the tantrums had faded away very quickly. He still had the occasional meltdown, but it was age-appropriate, and he was able to regain control even after he had started to lose it. He could never do that before.

His personality didn't change -- but his ability to deal with the minor disappointments of life was suddenly *worlds* better. Everyone who knew him well noticed. And it was a huge relief to both him and me.

And discipline in our house really didn't need to change -- just where it hadn't worked before, now it did.

...

He's older now, and while he still eats what most people would consider a very restricted diet, it doesn't seem so hard now. (He's also the least picky kid I know -- he loves to try new things and genuinely enjoys food, though he can't have *all* the things he'd like to try.) He's still an academically advanced, creative, sweet kid who desperately wants to please. Most of my friends who met him after we moved here (just before he turned five) find it difficult to believe that he ever had episodes like that, because he really is an incredibly obedient and well-behaved kid.

Anyway. I don't know if this is what's going on with your child. But medical issues *can* cause bizarre behavioral issues, and it's as much a relief to the child to have that stress removed as it is to the parent.

I sure hope you find your answers!

[Whisperlily]

Abbeyej's post is something to seriously consider on the medical side.

What she said about her son's inability to control himself? That's *exactly* the way I respond when I've had too much dairy. Only one of my children inherited that particular allergy from me... and it doesn't show up on allergy tests.

I am absolutely careful with dairy. Unfortunately I haven't outgrown it.

I've met one other person IRL whose DD responds this way to corn of any kind.

[Ottakee]

How does he act when these episodes are over? Is he confused, tired, "out of it", normal, or ????

Since he had seizures before, I would STRONGLY urge you to follow up with a top notch pediatric neurologist on this. Complex-partial seizures can cause what you are mentioning. This is esp. true if they come on when he is just playing fine and then suddenly has a change.

If he has the sudden personality change--discipline doesn't work, doesn't want to be held, and even makes you think psychosis, then I would certainly pursure the seizure aspect.

Try to write down when they happen, what was going on before it, how he slept the night before, who else was around, what he had been eating, etc. You might find a pattern here and the more information you have for the doctor the better.

My 12dd has complex-partial seizures. They can be hard to identify as they don't look like regular seizures.

[Jenstet]

My friend and I both have boys 2 months apart. I have to say that my 4 year can get very angry. So I don't think that is abnormal at that age. Her son has always been very volatile. He is very smart, very talkative but when he gets angry is can be very scary. It was more than your usual tantrum. He would say things too like I am going to burn you up. I am going to watch you drown. She was struggling but she did have him tested for allergies and he was allergic to dust mites, milk, wheat, grass. Common stuff. He is much better now but he still has an emotional personality. He is just a high strung kid.

I think you have to start ruling out stuff. Neurological, food, psychological/behavioral. I think you could find it is a bit of each. My older has problems. She is a foster child and we could see things at a young age. It is a long road to find out what is going on and what will work for you and your family. It's good that you are talking about it. Do you have friends and family that can help?

[Laurel T.]

Thank you ladies so much for taking the time to type out your experiences. It means so much to me. We had a good night with no nightmares and have read a thousand books this morning. He ate a good breakfast. So far things are going well this morning. I have considered and prayed about the direction you all have given and I think we have a plan.

We are first going to try to work on some dietary issues. There are some things that have crept into his diet which we used to try to avoid. I am also going to try some of the techniques that you all have suggested and see where that gets us. If the situation has not changed in a few weeks we will make another appointment with his doctor and then go back to the allergist and the neurologist.

How does he act when these episodes are over? Is he confused, tired, "out of it", normal, or ???? The "seizures" that he had were very strange. I never would have even thought it would be considered a seizure, but he would have a mild to moderate "tremor" in his hands. It could last for minutes or hours. But, he continued all his normal functions during that time and most of the time did not even notice it. There were times though that he would be scared by it and try to hide. The neurologist said that the only thing really to do was to wait and see if he outgrew them or if they began to interfere with his daily life and then we could consider medicating.

You all are a blessing.
Laurel T.

[Laurel T.]

Do you have friends and family that can help

I have an absolutely wonderful sister (who is on this board a lot). She has a background in counseling so she is a great source of support. THe rest of my family is supportive, but very busy with some other family issues. The problem is that he does not do these things when others are around so its hard for people to imagine what I am talking about. My sister got a glimpse of it on Sat., but it was not as bad as usual and this time he had a trigger. He just got mad. So until someone sees it, I don't think I will ever really know. Maybe I should video tape it!

[abbeyej]

... a mild to moderate "tremor" in his hands. It could last for minutes or hours...

Definitely a "tremor" and not a "tic"? You really have piqued my curiosity... The same ds who had all the food allergy issues (and come to think of it, also had night terrors as a toddler and preschooler, though those certainly aren't terribly unusual), had a bout with PANDAS about two years ago. It's an autoimmune reaction to strep infection, and it caused, among other things, tics and choreiform (sp?) movements... I only mention it because I continue to suspect that the allergies / asthma / PANDAS he has dealt with are all, as autoimmune disorders, related in some way... Anyway. I'm not being helpful now, just musing aloud...

[Whisperlily]

Abbeyej, did your son have a tendency to GET strep? My most allergic child is absolutely going crazy right now, allergy-wise, and also has scarlet fever/strep. He's managed to get it about 4 times in the past calendar year. I'm wondering if some of his allergy issues may be stemming from something I've overlooked.

Off to research PANDAS... you've piqued my curiosity too.

[Laurel T.]

OK ladies I am now crying. I have never heard of PANDAS and definately have a lot of research to do. But, DS behavior always, always intensifies before and during an illness. I know that is normal, but his behavior becomes off the wall. I am going to ask for his medical records, because I know that one of the kids (can't remember which) had strep at about the same time the "tremors" started. I cannot remember the time line, but will check it out. He had the tremors, but the behavioral issues had not started yet. But, all of this reminds me that then he got the flu and was treated with Tamiflu. He had a legitimate reaction to it (hallucinations and everything). I did not know what it was until a year later when I saw on the news about the side effects of Tamiflu. I have often been concerned that some of his fits seem so similar to the reaction that he had. I am definately going to call his doctor.

Thank you all so much.

Laurel T.

[Whisperlily]

:grouphug:

I know it's hard. Take comfort in the fact that if you DO discover something, *a name, or diagnosis* will not change who he is. He is still the same little boy you love. IF, and again IF you find out something, it may give you some tools to work with.

If you discover that it is nothing, you have some peace of mind.

[abbeyej]

Abbeyej, did your son have a tendency to GET strep?

Weirdly, no. At least... He wasn't diagnosed with it. His presentation of strep is unusual, and he had had an untreated case for about two months when the full-on PANDAS was diagnosed. I'm not sure how often he may have had it before.