Spin Off: I have a questions after watching Janice in NJ's Video.

[Robin Hood]

It was fun to watch a look ahead for us. I used to love diangramming in school and I am having fun teaching my 3rd graders with R&S how to do it. Until I watched Janice, I never thought about why we diagram. I don't know why. :confused: I can guess a few reasons that have to do with making writing better, but she made the jump to analyzing literature. How did she combine those 2 things? Does that just happen after you diagram for awhile? Will the books eventually tell us these things? How did she come up with a "ditch" theory while diagramming that sentence? From there she came up with the theme to the whole book, which is the first time anybody struck a reason for me of why I might want to read that book. I never had an interest before. How did she tie all that together by diagramming a sentence?

Stupid questions, I know. :blush: But I don't know. :o I live in CA where that new law was made about mandatory public schooling:glare:, so maybe my kids would be better off in ps with a dumb teacher like me.

[Robin Hood]

Dang it! I AM trying to write better. Ya'll force it on me. But even my title has bad grammar!

[8FillTheHeart]

Wow.....those are deep, loaded questions!! ;)

When I first started homeschooling my oldest, I learned grammar with him. I learned lots of things with him!! Ultimately I have a serious problem with that. Why?? B/c his educational understanding of those topics is not nearly as good as all of his siblings b/c my teaching explanations were limited to what was in the book. If he had a question, a lot of the time I simply couldn't give a thorough explanation. My limited understanding limited his understanding.

For some topics it isn't a big deal. For some it is. (grammar is a huge one where it is a big deal. Foreign language is another.) IMHO, effective teaching requires a knowledge base from which to teach. The only solution is to study more and or ahead of their grade level so that your understanding is greater than what they need. Then you can teach from what you know and not be limited to the material that is directly in front of you. You can answer their questions with an explanation that meets their needs.

Learning ahead isn't that incredibly difficult, especially when you are starting with younger kids. It also gives you greater flexibility in curriculum choices b/c you aren't curriculum dependent.

I would pick your areas of greatest weakness and read materials that strengthen your knowledge in those subjects.

Don't know if that answers your questions or not. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Maybe my experience parsing Greek could help you. This is the process I learned to follow in seminary. And it is the process my pastor dh uses to teach the Bible from the original languages.

The ultimate goal of diagramming a sentence (or a paragraph or even more!) is to really understand what an author was trying to communicate. You are looking at the nuts-and-bolts of how they put their thought together. So to really understand a book (and author) at a deep level, you would start by choosing a passage that was central to the book. You would break down the topic sentence. You would break down the sentences after it in the paragraph (because no sentence is an island), looking at how the sentences relate to each other. Ultimately, you would look for themes - words that the author uses in a special way, or at least frequently. You would look for ways that an author would emphasize things - by reversing the normal order of words perhaps. And you would look at how the author's ideas progress through-out the chapter and eventually the book.

Now - when we learn to diagram a sentence we aren't really doing all of that yet. We're still learning how to identify the parts of speech and how to "map" that with a diagram. The sentences are usually in isolation and they aren't sentences that convey any cohesive meaning. That is why in seminary you first take a course in Greek GRAMMAR and then you get to move on to what is called SYNTAX. The syntax takes the grammar a step further and you start to look at all the relationship between sentences and meanings and emphases. In English lit. (college level) you eventually end up doing what they call literary analysis where you then take a big step back and look at the work as a whole. Technically, the grammar is just one little detailed part of that.

I'm glad you asked this, because this is now coming together in my mind! (Now, others may add to this and enrich my understanding - or even blow my feeble attempt out of the water!) This is my goal for my dc - for them to be ABLE to interact with literature and language at this level. But only some selected great works. Right now we are at the first stage- learning HOW to diagram. I guess now that we are headed into logic stage, we will start to work more on the syntax part of things. I don't know if we will be totally finished with this whole process of literary analysis in the rhetoric stage or if the rhetoric stage encompasses grad school where I learned most of the upper level stuff! I'd love to see what others say about this.

[Robin Hood]

I have loved learning again, with my kids, everything I have forgotten. In my youth I found school so incredibly boring that I tuned out. I wasn't until 20 years ago that I started to enjoy reading, but my knowledge base was so limited due to the tuning out that I didn't read very deep books or good literature. Now I love good literature and I want my kids to love it, but I am still very shallow in my understanding. I like your idea of reading ahead in the grammar books (I think that's what you mean.) or any other weak area I have. I always found the whole idea of 12 years of homeschooling a bit daunting so I have only done what we are doing right now. It is time for teacher to move ahead. Thanks.

Aside from that, after watching Janice, I tried to diagram a passage in the Bible. I am a flunkie. Big time. I couldn't do it. But I am doing something right. There was no one assigned to read the Bible passage in church so just before service started, I was asked to read. My younger 9yo dd was standing next to me so I asked her if she wanted to do it. She did. I always thought of her a slow learner because it takes her so long to grasp concepts. Teachers that go to our church and other homeschool parents came up to me afterward and were shocked at her reading excellence for a 9yo. She tackled big names without a hitch. Just sounded them out. She always struggled with punctuation. She just suddenly has it this last month. I guess the trick is to never give up. I have always been critisized by local fellow moms when I whine that my kids can be difficult that I push to hard. To have some of them comment about my dd made me glad I do. We'll get the grammar, too.

[8FillTheHeart]

Somehow this double posted.....hmmmm, I have no idea how that happened.

[8FillTheHeart]

Great job, mom!

And, yes, I was talking about self-education. I have really been enjoying studying on my own w/o my kids (everything except French.....French is killing me!)

If your oldest is only 9......you have a LONG time before you need to be able to literary analysis, major grammar diagramming, etc. Take it one step at a time and you'll be more than prepared to guide your dd. :)

[Robin Hood]

If your oldest is only 9......you have a LONG time before you need to be able to literary analysis, major grammar diagramming, etc. Take it one step at a time and you'll be more than prepared to guide your dd. :)

You are right that I have a long way to go and that my kids are too young for major diagramming and the jump to lit analysis, but I want it for me. The more I teach them, I see my lack of knowledge and I want more of it for me so I can share it with them as they grow and lead them in the way. Janice gave me a spark of understanding and I want to be the spark for the kids. And time has a way of sneaking by.

I suppose Pam has it when she says to just keep filling the bucket.

[Robin Hood]

Jean, that is good. This is just the 1st stage. I need to remember that the end goal is the direction to go, not to get sidetracked, and do it in stages.