Lively discussion of history and literature... how when there's only one student?

[Robin in Tx]

All the recent comments has me wondering if the best curriculum in the world used by the best teacher in the world could ever make up for the lack of the dynamics of a *group* of students discussing the topic. This is, in particular, pertaining to middle school and up... when you really get into the logic/rhetoric stage.

I'm beginning to think I should seek out classes or a private school for my dd in a couple of years just so she can have this experience. I'm wondering if I should place more value on the give and take of a classroom discussion than the actual curriculum being used.

What do you guys think? Has anyone successfully engaged just ONE child in this sort of give and take (isn't it sort of flat, one dimensional?)?

Any recommendations? Thoughts?

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

On second thought, I probably should have posted this on the High School board. Please feel free to move over there, admin, if you wish.

Robin

[Jenny in Atl]

Maybe start a group, like a book club? I honestly don't remember much in the way of exciting debate or discussions in my high school years. Most kids did not want to be there, so that translated into one or two kids dominating the whole discussion. It was not until my college years that I found this. I did however find it with friends who liked to read, loved history, loved to debate, and share ideas.

hth's

[Robin in Tx]

THat's what my high school was like, too. I definitely want something different for my dd, but I'm not sure that one on one is the best setting for that. There are classes for homeschoolers in my area that do this sort of thing. Also, there is a private school that utilizes much of the same material I have my eye on for high school (Perrine's Sound and Sense, How to Read Lit like a Professor, etc.). I can't help but wonder if either of those would be a richer experience...

I guess a book club/group is possible... if I could find some participants who would be willing to get together often enough. I'll kick that idea around... thanks!

Robin

[profmom]

Robin, I saw your post about TOG too. There are apparently virtual TOG co-ops where students are having discussions about their history and literature studies on a regular basis (probably usually weekly). I'm new to TOG and can't help much, but I wanted to make sure you knew about them. You could join the TOG LooseTreads Yahoo group and ask those ladies.

[Robin in Tx]

Thanks for this info... I'll check into it!

Robin

[Carol in Cal.]

I remember vividly my sophomore year of high school. That was the year that I stopped talking in class. I was so intimidated. I had ideas but was too self-conscious to express them. I was 14 and very small. I had a high pitched voice and some difficulty being heard anyway.

I remember this so distinctly--the first book of the first semester. We had a somewhat sarcastic teacher, and studied "Lord of the Flies". We summarized the book briefly and then he asked his first question, "What or who was the Lord of the flies?" I still have no idea what answer he wanted. But I had a thought about it--I thought that it was a symbol for the evil in human nature, that becomes rank and ugly and rotten and attracts other evil when it's unchecked by civilization. I was too afraid to be laughed at or thought uncool (I WAS uncool) to raise my hand. I don't remember the conversation in class at all; just that long internal debate, and the gradual shutting down. I don't remember participating in high school class discussions ever again. I got a 5 on my AP exam in English, so it wasn't as if I had nothing to say.

I wish that I had had someone to discuss this kind of thing with. I have chosen to be that person with my DD. And I hope that she has a stronger voice that I did, in the long run, because of it. I also have chosen to allow her to participate in a junior great books coop that encourages everyone to express themselves, even though it is led by someone who also allows kids to interrupt each other, because it is encouraging her to form and value her own opinions about each work. I have also chosen to start a slightly more analytical book group that I lead, that meets every 3-4 weeks to discuss a novel or a challenging poem.

But I think that the best discussions DD has about books and history are with me, just the two of us.

[Eliana]

I haven't found our 1:1 conversations to be flat at all... they have been rich and varied... and sometimes very personal.

My high school discussion experiences felt so flat compared to the discussions I had with my parents (individually - they were divorced at this point)...and I was in AP courses in at a good school. I do not feel I got anything of value from any of the discussion in my high school English classes... and I did have very good instructors and was in a good school. In part this was because the other students had no experience engaging in real or meaningful discussion, and in part it was because their backgrounds were so much thiner than mine - they didn't have the knowledge of history, literature, philosophy, or language which were, at that point, second nature to me. The discussions all stayed so superficial and unsatisfying....

Discussion based work is so dependent on the quality of the group - even with a really incredible and skilled teacher/guide/tutor, but all the more so with a merely good teacher. I discovered this in my years at St John's College - a discussion based Great Books Program - when an influx of Febbies (February freshman who merge with the rest of the class in the fall of sophomore year) completely changed the tone and approach of our Seminars...

As you can see, my own experiences have strongly colored my perspective on the subject! I don't feel there is anything valuable in group discussion for the sake of having a group discussion... but if you can find something which does match your content goals and which has participants from a relatively equivalent background, then it could be a wonderful experience.

Fwiw and ymmv ;)

[Pencil Pusher]

This is an important question.

I think you should start by asking yourself, what is the point of the kind of (classical) education we are providing?

We usually say that we want to train our children to think a certain way, that we want them to read the greats, etc. But why?

Because of the Great Conversation. It is not limited by space or time. It is recorded in and by the great books, so that we *can* have the discussions you're suggesting--with Shakespeare, Plato, and...how about Faulkner? We have the time to mull the words that others have written and to formulate our own.

You may hesitate here. You may claim that this is different from classroom discussions, but isn't this the way that Socrates was taught? And Alexander the Great? And, fwiw, isn't that exactly what we are doing here, now?

I think classes can be great, but I wouldn't seek them out for the reasons you have mentioned. If there are other factors, perhaps. But the conversation can be had at the dining table.

[AustinTea]

I have been having good discussions with my dd(15) on the topics we read. She will even come to me at night with a "Why do they do this?" which turns into a discussion on why they might but also on what she feels about it and what she would do different and so on. This has helped us to have good discussions in other areas of life too.

I can't remember having any great discussions in highschool classes. Most of the questions a teacher asked were the fill in the answer type not really discussion types. If a question was on the lines of what do you think about..., it seems like the class would just agree with the first person who answered something. I know I would have been to afraid to say anything in class anyway.

[readwithem]

After two years of one on one discussions, we've decided to go with an online course next year for lit. I'm kind of sad about this. I've LOVED our discussions, reading together, and reading her papers. But she wants more "varied" discussions, input from others, etc. We'll still do the WTM suggested readings for history - and next year will be fabulous with the writings of the Founding Fathers ;) and knowing me I'll still read every book right along with her - so maybe we can have the best of both worlds. We'll see :)

[VanessaS]

I was in the GT program throughout school and we had great discussions. However, there were never more than 12 people in the group (out of a class of over 600) so most of the other students did not have this experience.

That said, I believe that it would be possible to have equally engaging discussions one-on-one (my DH and I do all of the time!) and on-line. I am part of a fantastic forum about raising GT-kids and the conversations can be absolutely amazing! In fact, they're sometimes so in-depth, analytical, and complex that I can barely follow them. But always interesting.

Here are some interesting discussion groups for literature-lovers:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crgII/
http://www.librarything.com/groups/groupreadsliterature

[Jackie in AR]

Thanks for this info... I'll check into it!

Robin


The TOG Forums have boards for discussing IRL and virtual co-ops for each year plan.

You could get lots of information there.

[Wildiris]

Hi,:iagree:

I'm glad you brought this up. I've been thinking about this a lot too. The need for discussion with varying view points may be the single most compelling reason to send DD to school, but I'm not sure.

It seems to me at some point in a young person's development other points of view on history, literature and science should be considered. While we can discuss between ourselves and engage in "The Great Conversation"(parent and child), other points of view and opinions help a young person shape their own opinion and understanding of a topic or issue. The more voices within a discussion bring with it the possibility that one can come to a deeper understanding and clarification of ones own thinking on an issue.

Does this happen at the high school level? I'm sure these types of discussions occur when students have the maturity to brave having a point of view different than their peers. More than likely this type of conversation happens with like-minded peers outside of school or with the family around the dinner table, or if they go to college and attend discussion sections for a class.

I think one of the many goals of a teacher is to bring about in the student the ability to hold multiple points of view while at the same time encouraging the student to constantly evaluate their own thinking. While on-line discussions can fill that need, there is also the need to develop group discussion skills, the ability to agree to disagree while sitting down together in the same room.

The idea of starting a book club or group of some sort (science, current events, history,etc.) and moderating the discussion may be a good place to start.

[Sarah CB]

I agree with the others about the lack of brilliant high school discussions. I had a great English teacher in high school, but she would ask a question and we would all sit there hoping someone else would answer. There were definitely no lively discussions.

I'm finding that in the co-op class I teach I have the same problem. Last year was better as I had a good mix of girls and boys. This year I only have three boys and then my dd. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth. Dd, being a girl and being the only one who was inolved in last year's co-op is usually chomping at the bit to talk but I have to hold her back so that I can get the other guys to talk. We had some good discussions while doing The Samurai's Tale, but getting them to talk about poetry is like pulling teeth.

I'd suggest starting your own book club or finding an online group. Enrolling in high school will not guarantee quality lit discussions.

Sarah

[readwithem]

Wow this is great food for thought!! Thanks Aubrey! :)

[Beth in SW WA]

We're opting for the Omnibus 1 online course for next year for ds 12 for that very reason. Depth of discussion/analysis is highly lacking on my watch.

[Robin in Tx]

My, I almost forgot about this discussion, it was so buried!

Thanks for all the responses. You have all given me something to think about, both pros and cons of the 1:1 dynamic. The input is definitely helping me think through this for my situation. No decision yet, but at least I'm zeroing in on what my goals should be and what I should expect from various options.

Thanks again so much!

Robin