Question about notetaking skills . . .

[Michelle in MO]

OK, this may seem like a nit-picky question/problem, but it's an issue that's really been bothering me lately.

I'm trying to teach my older two dd's notetaking skills. We do Omnibus every morning for 45 minutes, from about 10:30 to 11:15. I use the discussions in Omnibus as a springboard to teach them how to take notes from a lecture. So, I lead the discussion on our large whiteboard in the basement, where we do school. As we discuss each point, I summarize these points in (what I would consider to be) notes that are very easy to write down. My middle daughter is more compliant and copies down what I write. My oldest puts up a fight over every single question and wants to take her "own notes." Here's the problem: she only writes one sentence for each question (i.e., #1, #2, #3, etc.) and, although her sentences include some of the points I make on the board, they're not nearly complete enough. After we find the relevant place in the section we're reading, I mark down the reference. She only copies this down under great duress. She says her notes are "more complete" than mine, although in reality they're really not.

I think the real issue here is her own personal laziness (she can work hard and gets good grades, but she can also be incredibly lazy) and striking out after her own independence, even if it's over something so silly as taking notes.

The Omnibus tests allow the students to use the book that they're being evaluated on, their notes, and their Bibles. So---that's why I write down references and try to get them to take good notes.

When I was in high school and especially in college, I learned how to take very good notes, and I keep telling her "I'm not trying to control your life; I'm trying to teach you how to take good notes."

So, from those of you moms who have BTDT, how would you advise me to deal with a somewhat stubborn 16-year-old? Should I allow her to take notes however she wants, and if she does poorly on the tests (and at the cc next year, where she'll start to take some classes) until she figures out on her own that she needs to learn how to take good notes? Or, should I stop leading these discussions on the board and require them to write out full answers to each Omnibus question on their own? (Although part of the beauty of Omnibus is the discussion material!)

She is intelligent, but eventually her natural intelligence and memory are going to hit a wall and she'll realize she needs decent notes. So, moms, should I let her go and figure things out on her own, or should I still require this?

I know this sounds stupid, but this issue has really been bothering me. Your wisdom and advice are appreciated.

This is what the last few weeks have been like over these Omnibus discussions: :banghead:

[Karenciavo]

As we discuss each point, I summarize these points in (what I would consider to be) notes that are very easy to write down. My middle daughter is more compliant and copies down what I write. My oldest puts up a fight over every single question and wants to take her "own notes." Here's the problem: she only writes one sentence for each question (i.e., #1, #2, #3, etc.) and, although her sentences include some of the points I make on the board, they're not nearly complete enough. After we find the relevant place in the section we're reading, I mark down the reference. She only copies this down under great duress. She says her notes are "more complete" than mine, although in reality they're really not.

The Omnibus tests allow the students to use the book that they're being evaluated on, their notes, and their Bibles. So---that's why I write down references and try to get them to take good notes.

When I was in high school and especially in college, I learned how to take very good notes, and I keep telling her "I'm not trying to control your life; I'm trying to teach you how to take good notes."

So, from those of you moms who have BTDT, how would you advise me to deal with a somewhat stubborn 16-year-old? Should I allow her to take notes however she wants, and if she does poorly on the tests (and at the cc next year, where she'll start to take some classes) until she figures out on her own that she needs to learn how to take good notes? Or, should I stop leading these discussions on the board and require them to write out full answers to each Omnibus question on their own? (Although part of the beauty of Omnibus is the discussion material!)

Outlining your discussions is a great idea, but the way I'm reading what you posted it seems to me that you are giving them the outline in your words. Do you think you could have them come up with the outline on their own with your gentle guidance? Let's take Beowulf for example. Ask them about the setting (ques. 1 & 2) and let them give the answers, you write them on the board, they copy them. If you feel they are leaving out something vital, such as the name of the hall, ask questions to get them to fill in the missing piece of information. Ultimately I think you need to allow her to own her notes and let her fall.

Usually I let my son jot down his answers however he saw fit so he would be prepared for discussion, but sometimes I would have him write out complete sentences, it's good writing practice. Do not give up on the discussions though.

Karen

[Michelle in MO]

(big sigh!) I have to let her go and do her own thing, ultimately. I hope she figures it out eventually :sad: I think she's hoping to rely on her "smarts" to carry her through everything, instead of a little added discipline. And---to defend myself---the notes I write on the board are not voluminous! Ah well. She's a teenager---what can I say???

I'm going to review the chapter on dictation in The Writer's Jungle and try dictation with my girls again. I'm also going to take your suggestions to heart---allowing them to come up with an outline of some of the material for discussion purposes. We used to outline together with the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, and that worked very well. But---she's "sticking to her guns" on this one and I'm just getting tired of fighting her over the issue.

Thank you for looking up French dictation through Google! If you ever can find a copy of someone's notes, if it's not too much trouble---could you post it?

Thanks for all your help!

[8FillTheHeart]

How about choosing a source that you aren't giving the lecture and all of you watch the same thing and individually take notes and compare them at the end.

TC dvds or History Channel documentaries lend themselves to this sort of activity. My dd is learning notetaking from a TC series. B/c she doesn't have written source for the info, she is realizing that if she wants to have help remembering the info, she better write it down.

I wouldn't want to "teach" her which notes she had to write down. I simply ask a lot of questions afterwards and it becomes obvious to her where her notes are lacking. It is her teaching herself vs me telling her. ;)

[Michelle in MO]

I thought I was making it very easy, writing the notes on the board and having them copy them down. Ultimately, I hoped, they would transfer this ability over to other classes.

We own plenty of Teaching Company CD's and DVD's; I'll try your suggestion! :)

[Karenciavo]

How about choosing a source that you aren't giving the lecture and all of you watch the same thing and individually take notes and compare them at the end.

TC dvds or History Channel documentaries lend themselves to this sort of activity. My dd is learning notetaking from a TC series. B/c she doesn't have written source for the info, she is realizing that if she wants to have help remembering the info, she better write it down.

I wouldn't want to "teach" her which notes she had to write down. I simply ask a lot of questions afterwards and it becomes obvious to her where her notes are lacking. It is her teaching herself vs me telling her. ;)

We do this too. The best part for *me* is that the TC items come with outlines and I compare my sons' notes with it. Makes my life easier. :D

[Laura K (NC)]

My most successful, and least wordy, note-taking in college was when I had read the material for the class ahead of time. This is really ideal, and I never had a high school class prepare me for this. Public high school teachers generally don't keep their students informed of the big picture as well as college professors do. I think this is very important for high schoolers to learn, and it's hard for homeschool parents to teach. If a child reads over the material to be lectured on, and then hears the lecture, he will become aware of what the lecturer feels is important. Since the lecturer is also usually the grader, this implies positive or negative consequences grade-wise. :)

Reading over the material first will allow the student to think more during the lecture about tying this new material to what he has already learned. His notes might be very brief... only words and phrases and diagrams and underlining, rather than neat paragraphs with proper capitalization and punctuation. College note-taking, to me, makes writing in textbooks inevitable and immensely helpful. As a homeschooler I really discourage this because I have other children that need that book, dang it, and I want to sell it for a few dollars after we're done with it!

[Michelle in MO]

My most successful, and least wordy, note-taking in college was when I had read the material for the class ahead of time. This is really ideal, and I never had a high school class prepare me for this. Public high school teachers generally don't keep their students informed of the big picture as well as college professors do. I think this is very important for high schoolers to learn, and it's hard for homeschool parents to teach. If a child reads over the material to be lectured on, and then hears the lecture, he will become aware of what the lecturer feels is important. Since the lecturer is also usually the grader, this implies positive or negative consequences grade-wise. :)

Reading over the material first will allow the student to think more during the lecture about tying this new material to what he has already learned. His notes might be very brief... only words and phrases and diagrams and underlining, rather than neat paragraphs with proper capitalization and punctuation. College note-taking, to me, makes writing in textbooks inevitable and immensely helpful. As a homeschooler I really discourage this because I have other children that need that book, dang it, and I want to sell it for a few dollars after we're done with it!

I usually came to lectures well-prepared with the reading, and the professors always emphasized the points that were going to be made on the tests. Naturally, I made sure I copied those points down!

I don't think high school teachers, in general, teach their students some of these basic skills. I don't remember any h.s. teacher telling us how to take notes. Somehow, somewhere along the line, I guess I picked it up. I think I did well in college not because I was so intelligent (there were many way beyond where I was at) but because I had good study skills!

[Antonia]

my dd learned more by "OJT" when she started attending cc than she ever did when we practiced outlining and note-taking at home. I have noticed a huge improvement in the way she takes notes since the beginning of this semester. She has learned what is important, how to organize it, and how to transcribe her notes later on. This is only her second cc class, but I am amazed at the growth she has attained in so many areas in just these two semesters.

[Michelle in MO]

I think she needs a "different" teacher on some of these things (instead of just plain ol' Mom!) and I think she'll give other teachers a better response in this area----at least I hope so!

;)