Not sure what to ask?

[stephanie]

I'm hoping someone can help me here. We recently had dd7 (2nd) tested because I noticed some problems with her reading, spelling, and writing. After testing, the diagnostician told us that she is gifted in terms of the language area of her brain. She ranked at around a 13 yr old level. But then when it went to actually putting it down and processing it on paper, she went to around a 5 yr old level. She said that frustration in between taking it in and processing it is slowing her down. She is very bright...can hold a conversation with adults. Of course, that's frustrating because she is so smart, but then when you sit down with her to read she can't decode things. She is also very good at math. The Dr. told us she will need a multi-sensory approach to everything. That means I will most definitely need to change our phonics program. We use OPGTR, as I have with my other 3 kids. She suggested Spalding? I did notice however that it is pricey. In a nutshell dd leveled out about 6 months behind. I'm not really concerned about the behind part, just so long as she progresses. I just don't know where to go from here? What kind of diagnosis is that? Is there a name to it? The Dr. told me she was a very complicated case because it's like she's gifted/learning disabled. This Dr. is a reputable Dr. here in our area as well. I do trust her input, but it was too much info to process in an hour. She told me to not read any of it for a couple of days, but then to look through it and call her for any questions or help I may need. I was just hoping someone could lead me in some sort of direction. So here's what I'm doing with her as of now...
Singapore math-2a/2b
vP classically cursive
WWE 2
Sequential spelling-just started today
For phonics we are doing Phonic pathways-started this week, ABeka phonics cards because she likes them, and she likes to read to me
ETC 3-she likes this too
SOTW 3
Real science-chemistry
Literature-follow LCC
geography-evan moore books
TtR-music
Thomas Kincade art
*seems like a lot,but everything is nicely spaced, loosely following a LCC schedule.
__________________
Steph

[melmichigan]

Am I understanding then that her IQ testing shows her as gifted but her achievement testing is not matching up? Or, in other words she is showing a discrepancy between the two? If it is a psych report there should be a summary of diagnosis on one of the pages based on the different axis. That would be a place to start.

I have one DD9 who is 2E. She has AS (asperger's). One of my twin DD6's will probably have the same diagnosis eventually, she is just 'on the spectrum' for now but is definately gifted. The other twin DD6 has a severe discrepancy between IQ and achievement, she is gifted and is still struggling to read while her twin is reading at a 3rd/4th grade level, time will tell if she is 2E as well or if something else is in play. She will have to have more evaluation in the future. She is also good at math. :)

I'd be happy to answer questions, provided I have answers. ;) Otherwise feel free to PM with specifics. What we are using is below.

[newbie]

If it was a neuropsych eval, you would have a dx.

It sounds like aspbergers. I could be wrong though.

[EKS]

First google the term "twice exceptional" or 2E. That will give some information. Also Brock and Fernette Eide (authors of The Mislabeled Child) have a lot of information about this on their blog and website.

My son is HG+ and also has dyslexia and ADHD. At 7 he was only able to laboriously sound out CVC words and unlike your daughter he presented as being somewhat delayed in all areas. We did not have an accurate diagnosis until he was in 5th grade. Ironically, the diagnosis came after he had overcome his difficulties in many areas (at the time of diagnosis, he was doing first year algebra and reading on a high school level). It is good that your daughter's giftedness *and* learning disabilities were uncovered so early.

The profile of a 2E child is very different from a more typical LD child. In my son's case, he tended to soar ahead with what seemed like very little intervention. Then he would level off and need more intervention.

You also have to be sure that when you remediate weaknesses that you remediate until the level of whatever it is is as close to her intelligence level as possible. So, if her IQ is in the 99th percentile, you want to remediate until her skills are in the 99th percentile--not the 35th or 50th or whatever. Also, even if she is working several grade levels ahead down the road, she may end up needing to have testing accommodations to show this on a standardized test.

I'm mostly rambling here. I hope some of this is helpful.

Oh, and I'd get her checked by a developmental optometrist if you haven't already. Vision therapy helped both of my children a lot.

[EKS]

It sounds like aspbergers. I could be wrong though.

What in the OP indicated Asperger's to you? I didn't see anything that even remotely suggested it.

[LizzyBee]

For reading, we're using Barton Reading and Spelling. www.bartonreading.com It's expensive, but all the necessary training is included on DVD. It has a good resale value, so you can sell one module to help pay for the next one. This is an Orton Gillingham program.

I second the recommendation of The Mislabeled Child. They are making some changes on their websites, so the articles section was not available the last time I checked. But you might still find something helpful. www.mislabeledchild.com

[stephanie]

Thank you all so much. I now have a starting point. I'm trying to process all you have said....

[Twinmom]

Steph, I second the idea that you should Google 2E kids! There is a lot of good information out there that will get you started, as it sure sounds as if you have one! As for a "name" for what you are seeing, have you looked at dysgraphia? It sure sounds like that to me...that or a visual processing disorder. Dysgraphia can occur in kids with Aspergers, but unless you have other reasons to suspect this, don't even go there. ;) Here's one definition of dysgraphia that I found in a quick Google search:

Dysgraphia is defined as a difficulty in automatically remembering and mastering the sequence of muscle motor movements needed in writing letters or numbers. This difficulty is out of harmony with the person's intelligence, regular teaching (http://www.dyslexia-ca.org/dysgraphiadefinition.html#) instruction, and (in most cases) the use of the pencil in non-learning (http://www.dyslexia-ca.org/dysgraphiadefinition.html#) tasks. It is neurologically based and exists in varying degrees, ranging from mild to moderate. It can be diagnosed, and it can be overcome if appropriate remedial strategies are taught well and conscientiously carried out. An adequate remedial program generally works if applied on a daily basis. In many situations, it is relatively easy to plan appropriate compensations to be used as needed.

If not dysgraphia, it is entirely possible that this problem might vision related (not near sighted vs. far sighted, but a processing issue) and might be remediated through vision therapy. VT did amazing things for my DD...you may remember me talking about how she gained about 2 1/2 grade levels in reading ability after completing VT! If she does have visual processing issues, consider an OT eval for other sensory issues (SPD) as well...if you have one sensory processing problem, you may have others. A good OT can help tremendously!

To evaluate for a visual processing disorder, you need a developmental vision exam by an experienced optometrist. Look at the site www.covd.org (http://www.covd.org) to find one in your area. There is a lot of good information on the site regarding visual processing problems as well.

:grouphug: and I miss chatting with you guys! Been awfully busy with DD, as my other recent post shows...:glare: Send my hugs there, too.

[prairiegirl]

Stephanie, when you said multi-sensory approach to reading, I immediately thought of Bartons. It is very expensive but I think it is worth every penny of it to get my kids reading on level. It does work. I had tried many different curriculums (OPGTR, Pathways, 100 Easy Lessons, WRTR) and nothing worked until we turned to Bartons. Just thought I'd chime in with this.

[Twinmom]

Oh, and I forgot to mention...we also started doing Sequential Spelling with DD but ending up switching to AAS. The stronger multi-sensory component (esp. the manipulatives) has helped DD significantly. SS is a great program, but if it doesn't work take a good look at AAS.

[stephanie]

Steph, I second the idea that you should Google 2E kids! There is a lot of good information out there that will get you started, as it sure sounds as if you have one! As for a "name" for what you are seeing, have you looked at dysgraphia? It sure sounds like that to me...that or a visual processing disorder. Dysgraphia can occur in kids with Aspergers, but unless you have other reasons to suspect this, don't even go there. ;) Here's one definition of dysgraphia that I found in a quick Google search:



If not dysgraphia, it is entirely possible that this problem might vision related (not near sighted vs. far sighted, but a processing issue) and might be remediated through vision therapy. VT did amazing things for my DD...you may remember me talking about how she gained about 2 1/2 grade levels in reading ability after completing VT! If she does have visual processing issues, consider an OT eval for other sensory issues (SPD) as well...if you have one sensory processing problem, you may have others. A good OT can help tremendously!

To evaluate for a visual processing disorder, you need a developmental vision exam by an experienced optometrist. Look at the site www.covd.org (http://www.covd.org) to find one in your area. There is a lot of good information on the site regarding visual processing problems as well.

:grouphug: and I miss chatting with you guys! Been awfully busy with DD, as my other recent post shows...:glare: Send my hugs there, too.

Hey, Jenn. We miss seeing you too.
As for dysgraphia, wouldn't I see problems in her mechanics of writing? She can write in cursive very well...if she can see it. She can also draw very well...she's very talented in her drawing abilities. It's the actual process of writing a story or dictation. She writes backwards, starts at the wrong place, she's just all over the place, despite 2 years of instruction and read alouds. I'm really interested in the VT and I'm going to check for a local one. Thanks so much. I wish some of you were here with me to look at this "book" of tests and tell me exactly what it means!

[stephanie]

Stephanie, when you said multi-sensory approach to reading, I immediately thought of Bartons. It is very expensive but I think it is worth every penny of it to get my kids reading on level. It does work. I had tried many different curriculums (OPGTR, Pathways, 100 Easy Lessons, WRTR) and nothing worked until we turned to Bartons. Just thought I'd chime in with this.

I'm off to check it out!!! Thanks

[JennW in SoCal]

Hi Stephanie,

I just graduated my gifted/learning disabled ds after 10 years of homeschooling. I had brought him home in the middle of 2nd grade because his school success and his obvious intelligence were clearly not matching up -- he was struggling and unhappy. Like your dd, he has always tested at the top for language, did well in math but had processing issues. He processes things very slowly and has a poor working memory -- I like to joke he needs some more RAM in his brain. He was tested at age 7 and age 12, and was considered hard to peg for a diagnosis (possibly ADHD, possibly Aspergers', maybe a bit of both) except he clearly suffers from "Executive Dysfunction". Executive function is the area of the brain that plans, organizes and strategizes, a necessary area for success in traditional school so having a "dysfunction" in that area is clearly a problem! This particular issue wasn't a huge problem until middle and high school -- text books and multi-step algebra problems were really difficult for him. Here is a web site that describes it. http://home.comcast.net/~kskkight/EFD.htm

When I started homeschooling I just adapted things to be multi-sensory. We used manipulatives, a white board and he sat on a big exercise ball if he needed to sit. He was otherwise sprawled on the floor or bouncing on the exercise ball (he still needs to move in order to process information). Even for spelling I'd use scrabble letters or have him draw words in the sand box. He did lots of crafts and hands on projects, and learned to type by the time he was 8. He enjoyed watching documentaries and listening to audio books. Basically I just did whatever worked best with him -- lots of oral work until he was 9 or 10, then slowly building up his written work. I let him be creative with the video camera and computer -- in high school he did some cool projects like a Mythbusters style science video on the special effects in Disney's Haunted Mansion ride, a WWII radio show for his World History class.

I guess the best way to think about it is that all the input can be at a very high level (assuming processing issues don't get in the way), and discussions can be at a very high level. It just takes a while for output to catch up as study skills have to be specifically taught and practiced.

You may have to alter the way you've always homeschooled, but it doesn't have to be a radical change. Just take advantage of her strengths, and patiently work on those weaknesses.

[Nancy08]

Oh, thank you guys.
I learned from this forum...

just keep on posting.

[Dobela]

Hey, Jenn. We miss seeing you too.
As for dysgraphia, wouldn't I see problems in her mechanics of writing? She can write in cursive very well...if she can see it. She can also draw very well...she's very talented in her drawing abilities. It's the actual process of writing a story or dictation. She writes backwards, starts at the wrong place, she's just all over the place, despite 2 years of instruction and read alouds. I'm really interested in the VT and I'm going to check for a local one. Thanks so much. I wish some of you were here with me to look at this "book" of tests and tell me exactly what it means!
covd.org is how I found our vision therapist. She has been amazing! We can report huge gains like the pp. Another thing that helped my son was occupational therapy. VT and OT are closely linked. VT has been so effective for us that I would recommend at this time you look at it first before changing curriculums. We could tell a huge difference in just 8 weeks.

I am very familiar with dysgraphia. It has degrees of how it effects people as well-from mild to severe. I was engaged to a man with dysgraphia and he was an amazing artist. But he always said art was different because it didn't have boundaries he had to adhere to. He could also write in cursive, but couldn't write a sentence independently. One thing that helped him was to type everything. Because typing uses a different part of the muscles and a different part of the brain (he was told), it can bypass some of the mis-connections they have between the thought and the getting it on paper. Often he could dictate what he wanted to say, then recopy what he dictated. Copying something already written was easier than writing as he was thinking.

AAS is a great program. My son's reading tutor has started him in Winston Grammar and he is just flying thru it. It is very visually based, much like AAS. Another program that people have had reat success with is IEW for writing. My son is also having great success with Scottish Rite reading. The older version is available thru EPS. Barton is excellent as well. Expensive (any method like that is expensive) but we sold our used module for near the same price we bought it for.

[melmichigan]

There are many types of dysgraphia. http://www.ncld.org/ is a great resource for the different types. My DD9 has dysgraphia along with her asperger's. My only other question besides vision therapy would also be dyslexia since you mention writting backwards and starting in the wrong place. We are in a similar place with our DD6, trying to distinguish what the 'real' problem is. :) She is also my artist. Wow, maybe we could bounce things back and forth till we figure them both out. ;)

[Misty]

She sounds like my daughter, though she has progressed in the past year or two quite a bit, thanfully. She is 8 and has a highly gifted IQ, but is just barely working at grade level. Her spelling is just below grade level. She has Asperger's and seems to excel at math, art, and music. However, even though she could multiply in her head when she was four, she still drags through grade-level math curriculum. Very frustrating! The psychologist told me she should be working at junior high level because of her IQ and because she isn't it is indicative of being learning disabled. I've noticed my daughter has slow processing with language. I think she thinks in pictures or something, which is common with some on the autism spectrum. My other daughter and I... We both think in words. This is why spelling is so easy for us. Anyway, I'm still figuring the 8yo out.

All of my girls have various learning disabilities and co-morbid disorders. They are all "Asperger-ish" though only two are officially diagnosed.

[stephanie]

Wow! Each of you have helped me tremendously! I feel such a relief now that I'm hearing others have one like mine. The 2E kid sounds just like my dd...it is really weird. Then again, so does dyslexia. I am looking into the VT on Monday as well. Thank you all so much again. I've been really stressed and discouraged since I got the results, and this has helped me so much.

[stephanie]

:confused: I can't find any VT's within a 100 mile radius. I'll have to ask my peds. to see if there's maybe a new one that just isn't in the directory.

[Twinmom]

Sadly, that's a common problem. We had to drive an hour and a half each way to get to our VT. It is worth it if you find the right person! In longer distance cases, there is often a possibility of doubling up on sessions (we did two sessions a day, three times a week for 3 months instead of the traditional 9-12 months) or doing some of the work at home if need be. There is often an issue with insurance coverage as well, so don't be shocked if this is an out of pocket expense. The exam is usually covered but treatment often is not. It is pricey, but for us was worth every penny.

[Dobela]

:confused: I can't find any VT's within a 100 mile radius. I'll have to ask my peds. to see if there's maybe a new one that just isn't in the directory.
Our peds didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I shared how wonderful our vision therapist was. Try calling the ones that are 100 miles away and ask them. They should know who is in their field. And they may have offices closer. My son's VT has an office in 3 different locations, one that is 70 miles away from us, one 50 miles from that, and fortunately one 10 miles from us. She just works at each one different days of the week.

[newbie]

:confused: I can't find any VT's within a 100 mile radius. I'll have to ask my peds. to see if there's maybe a new one that just isn't in the directory.

Did you try yellowbookforkids.com. I am not sure about VT's , but it might help.

[stephanie]

Our peds didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I shared how wonderful our vision therapist was. Try calling the ones that are 100 miles away and ask them. They should know who is in their field. And they may have offices closer. My son's VT has an office in 3 different locations, one that is 70 miles away from us, one 50 miles from that, and fortunately one 10 miles from us. She just works at each one different days of the week.

I'm going to do that! Thanks so much. I haven't even found one in a 100 mi. radius. I was hoping Houston would have some and that's only about 75 miles from me, but nothing turned up. I'm sure my Dr. will be stumped as well. I have found that I discover all sorts of new diagnoses that he's never even heard of when it comes to LD's.:001_huh: I guess it's just not his practice.:confused:

[stephanie]

Did you try yellowbookforkids.com. I am not sure about VT's , but it might help.

Off to check it out......y'all are great!

[newbie]

I am a dork, its yellowpagesforkids.com. Sorry.

[Dobela]

I'm going to do that! Thanks so much. I haven't even found one in a 100 mi. radius. I was hoping Houston would have some and that's only about 75 miles from me, but nothing turned up. I'm sure my Dr. will be stumped as well. I have found that I discover all sorts of new diagnoses that he's never even heard of when it comes to LD's.:001_huh: I guess it's just not his practice.:confused:
Dont' assume they are attached to medical anything either. Our Children's Hospital doesn't even have a DO/VT on staff and it was the first place I tried to find one.

I think there is at least one in the Houston area. I know someone on another board has shared they are going to one or planningon making an appt at one. They haven't shared any names though....

[newbie]

University of Houston, College of Optometry.

I just scanned thru to the bottom, there might be more. But the list of services is soooo huge.

[stephanie]

I found them! whew! For some reason it didn't pull up the first night I tried. Luckily, I found one in the Woodlands, and we make frequent trips there for get-aways. We could kill two birds with one stone!:D

[Twinmom]

Yeah!!! That's great news.

A few ideas for you: Be sure to ask for and check references on your VT before committing big $$. VT is a relatively new field and not all VTs are created equal! ;) Another good idea is to ask how much of the eval and VT they will file with insurance (some won't file at all because it isn't always covered), whether or not they can do a payment plan and whether or not they offer credit services for medical expenses (can't remember what it is called, but it's basically a program offering a no-interest loan for a specified period of time, then it goes to full interest). Sometimes you can get insurance coverage if the vision issue would otherwise be treated with surgery...some VTs will help you fight for coverage and others just say you are on your own. Also, ask about the qualifications of the VT herself...the doctor frequently just does the eval and the VT performs the actual services.

Ask about typical length of treatment, whether or not you can double up on sessions due to the distance you are traveling, whether or not there is any work you can do at home to lessen the cost. These questions are somewhat unanswerable until after you've completed the evaluation and see what you are dealing with, but they are definitely worth asking.

If you run into any questions, please feel free to PM me! I'm excited for you and I hope this goes very well. :D

[Dobela]

Yeah!!! That's great news.

A few ideas for you: Be sure to ask for and check references on your VT before committing big $$. VT is a relatively new field and not all VTs are created equal! ;) Another good idea is to ask how much of the eval and VT they will file with insurance (some won't file at all because it isn't always covered), whether or not they can do a payment plan and whether or not they offer credit services for medical expenses (can't remember what it is called, but it's basically a program offering a no-interest loan for a specified period of time, then it goes to full interest). Sometimes you can get insurance coverage if the vision issue would otherwise be treated with surgery...some VTs will help you fight for coverage and others just say you are on your own. Also, ask about the qualifications of the VT herself...the doctor frequently just does the eval and the VT performs the actual services.

Ask about typical length of treatment, whether or not you can double up on sessions due to the distance you are traveling, whether or not there is any work you can do at home to lessen the cost. These questions are somewhat unanswerable until after you've completed the evaluation and see what you are dealing with, but they are definitely worth asking.

If you run into any questions, please feel free to PM me! I'm excited for you and I hope this goes very well. :D
:iagree:great advice!

[newbie]

I found them! whew! For some reason it didn't pull up the first night I tried. Luckily, I found one in the Woodlands, and we make frequent trips there for get-aways. We could kill two birds with one stone!:D

Did ya find it off the website I gave you. That website is invaluable.

Glad you found someone, and others are right, get more info. Dn had one good and one bad.

The trick is have tested first and after certain amt. of time have tested again for improvement, if no improvement demand more services, free of charge. B/c you should see improvement.

The only prob. sometimes w/VT is getting kids to do homework, they find it boring. But, if you can keep up, it works great.

[Dobela]

Did ya find it off the website I gave you. That website is invaluable.

Glad you found someone, and others are right, get more info. Dn had one good and one bad.

The trick is have tested first and after certain amt. of time have tested again for improvement, if no improvement demand more services, free of charge. B/c you should see improvement.

The only prob. sometimes w/VT is getting kids to do homework, they find it boring. But, if you can keep up, it works great. This post made me remember another question for you to ask. Ask the VT how often they re-eval. My son's does small assessments every 6 or 8 weeks just to see how much he has progressed and if they are on the right track.

[stephanie]

Again, thank you all so much for the links and advice. It has been so helpful and has put me at ease about many things.