Dyseidesia?

[JudoMom]

Can someone please explain what this is, and/or point me to some good websites to read about it?

Thanks :001_smile:

[Rod Everson]

One way of classifying dyslexics is to divide them into three camps depending upon their performance when reading and spelling, particularly spelling.

Dyseidetic dyslexia, also called visual dyslexia, involves difficulty recalling the visual form of words. (Eidetic memory is visual memory, so dys+eidetic=poor visual memory.) A child thought to have dyseidetic dyslexia will have difficulty remembering the correct spelling of many words and will spell them phonetically or will make the wrong choice (e.g., spelling whut for what, sed for said, uv for of, etc., or writing there for their, or bare for bear, etc.) because they have difficulty recalling what they saw.

In my opinion, this is the child that should be taken to a developmental optometrist to rule out vision skills issues. See The Vision Piece (http://ontrackreading.com/the-vision-piece/) on my website for more information on vision issues and on finding the right optometrist.

A second form of dyslexia in this scheme of categorizing is called dysphonetic dyslexia. This is the label applied to a child who has difficulty dealing with the sounds in words. He will read mostly by building a sight word vocabulary and will have difficulty decoding unfamiliar words due to his inability to use phonics skills efficiently. His spelling of words won't be intelligible because his spellings won't consist of poor choices for a sound like the dyseidetic dyslexic. Instead, he'll jumble the placement of the sounds.

A good phonics program is what is needed in this case, to straighten out the confusion about the relationship between sounds and letters.

A third category combines both issues and the people who use the terms above call that category dyphoneidetic dyslexia (dys+phon+eidetic=poor auditory and visual)

In my opinion, most kids who have reading troubles (unless they've just been very poorly taught) fall into this third category. The have a vision skills problem and the lack of vision skills also makes it difficult for them to pick up the phonics relationships. The sensible way to approach the problem is to fix the vision first, and then the phonics problem, as it's the vision problem that is generating the phonics problem. It's possible to go the other way (and much cheaper, if the only problem turns out to be a lack of phonics knowledge) but it's unlikely to address the vision side of the problem that is probably also present.

I see kids all the time who have had good phonics training, but they still struggle with reading until they get their vision skills issues addressed with vision therapy. I also see kids who, after getting vision therapy, need some extensive phonics training to enable them to overcome the dysphonetic side of their reading problem.

Hope this helps,

Rod Everson
OnTrack Reading (http://ontrackreading.com)

[AngieW in Texas]

If you mean dyseidetic dyslexia, here is the best link I have found:
http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/dyseidetic.htm

My youngest dd had both visual efficiency issues and dyseidetic dyslexia. Vision therapy corrected the visual efficiency skills, but it doesn't do anything for dyslexia.

My dd is reading at grade level now.

[zaichiki]

The sensible way to approach the problem is to fix the vision first, and then the phonics problem, as it's the vision problem that is generating the phonics problem. It's possible to go the other way (and much cheaper, if the only problem turns out to be a lack of phonics knowledge) but it's unlikely to address the vision side of the problem that is probably also present.

I see kids all the time who have had good phonics training, but they still struggle with reading until they get their vision skills issues addressed with vision therapy. I also see kids who, after getting vision therapy, need some extensive phonics training to enable them to overcome the dysphonetic side of their reading problem.

Hope this helps,

Rod Everson
OnTrack Reading (http://ontrackreading.com)

My dd has dyseidetic dyslexia, but vision problems have been ruled out by a pediatric behavioral ophthamologist at a Children's Hospital (no convergence or tracking issues and 20/20 vision). She has had no vision therapy. All About Spelling (memorizing rules that tell her *when* to use *which* spelling pattern) has helped a LOT. Dd's phonics skills are very good, and she reads above grade level, but it hasn't been an easy journey. She still loses her place on the page and within a word, which slows her speed and takes enough concentration that she sometimes loses the meaning of the words she is reading.

Dyseidetic dyslexia has a strong genetic component. We have since seen the same symptoms (now that we know what to look for) in dd's father and grandfather.

[Rod Everson]

My dd has dyseidetic dyslexia, but vision problems have been ruled out by a pediatric behavioral ophthamologist at a Children's Hospital (no convergence or tracking issues and 20/20 vision). She has had no vision therapy.... She still loses her place on the page and within a word, which slows her speed and takes enough concentration that she sometimes loses the meaning of the words she is reading.


"She loses her place on the page" sure sounds like a vision issue, not to mention what it would do to her tracking ability, and a "pediatric behavioral ophthalmologist" is not necessarily going to do the extensive testing done by a developmental optometrist. Before I ruled out a need for vision therapy, I would ask that ophthalmologist how often he (or she) referred patients for in-office vision therapy. If it's relatively frequently, then he's probably doing the necessary testing.

I don't mean to sound contentious in the least, but one of the problems parents have in finding out about the sort of vision issues I'm addressing is that trained optometrists and ophthalmologists often find that these kids have normal convergence skills when, in fact, the testing they do is not designed to root out the problem. Often a child can converge well enough to pass the tests routinely performed by an optometrist, for instance, but they will begin to fall apart when the more rigorous testing is performed by a developmental optometrist. Essentially they are capable of performing well enough to pass routine testing, but can't sustain the effort for long, and when we read we are required to sustain the effort for extended periods of time.

So, again, if your ophthalmologist routinely refers to a vision therapy department, you've probably covered the bases, but if he doesn't, I would still want to investigate further if it were my child. And developmental vision issues run in families also.

Rod Everson

[Dobela]

"She loses her place on the page" sure sounds like a vision issue, not to mention what it would do to her tracking ability, and a "pediatric behavioral ophthalmologist" is not necessarily going to do the extensive testing done by a developmental optometrist. Before I ruled out a need for vision therapy, I would ask that ophthalmologist how often he (or she) referred patients for in-office vision therapy. If it's relatively frequently, then he's probably doing the necessary testing.

I don't mean to sound contentious in the least, but one of the problems parents have in finding out about the sort of vision issues I'm addressing is that trained optometrists and ophthalmologists often find that these kids have normal convergence skills when, in fact, the testing they do is not designed to root out the problem. Often a child can converge well enough to pass the tests routinely performed by an optometrist, for instance, but they will begin to fall apart when the more rigorous testing is performed by a developmental optometrist. Essentially they are capable of performing well enough to pass routine testing, but can't sustain the effort for long, and when we read we are required to sustain the effort for extended periods of time.

So, again, if your ophthalmologist routinely refers to a vision therapy department, you've probably covered the bases, but if he doesn't, I would still want to investigate further if it were my child. And developmental vision issues run in families also.

Rod Everson :iagree: My son saw a variety of vision specialists and we were told he was seeing just fine. It was not until we saw a developmental optometrist that our visual concerns were confirmed. A good place to start is covd.org. That is how we found our developmental optometrist.

[zaichiki]

Okey dokey -- I should have typed "developmental ophthamologist," not "behavioral."

He is a well-known pediatric ophthamologist at Children's Hospital in Boston. They did extensive testing (more than an hour's worth). I specifically asked about convergence and tracking... AND I explained her issues losing her place on the page and within words. So -- he double checked. According to the tests he used her vision was excellent and she had no trouble with convergence or tracking. He did explain that the symptoms were consistent with what he has encountered with children with dyslexia and referred us to a neurodevelopental psychologist.

So... just out of curiosity... what would you do with that experience... if it were you/your child?

"She loses her place on the page" sure sounds like a vision issue, not to mention what it would do to her tracking ability, and a "pediatric behavioral ophthalmologist" is not necessarily going to do the extensive testing done by a developmental optometrist. Before I ruled out a need for vision therapy, I would ask that ophthalmologist how often he (or she) referred patients for in-office vision therapy. If it's relatively frequently, then he's probably doing the necessary testing.

I don't mean to sound contentious in the least, but one of the problems parents have in finding out about the sort of vision issues I'm addressing is that trained optometrists and ophthalmologists often find that these kids have normal convergence skills when, in fact, the testing they do is not designed to root out the problem. Often a child can converge well enough to pass the tests routinely performed by an optometrist, for instance, but they will begin to fall apart when the more rigorous testing is performed by a developmental optometrist. Essentially they are capable of performing well enough to pass routine testing, but can't sustain the effort for long, and when we read we are required to sustain the effort for extended periods of time.

So, again, if your ophthalmologist routinely refers to a vision therapy department, you've probably covered the bases, but if he doesn't, I would still want to investigate further if it were my child. And developmental vision issues run in families also.

Rod Everson

[Rod Everson]

Okey dokey -- I should have typed "developmental ophthamologist," not "behavioral."

He is a well-known pediatric ophthamologist at Children's Hospital in Boston. They did extensive testing (more than an hour's worth). I specifically asked about convergence and tracking... AND I explained her issues losing her place on the page and within words. So -- he double checked. According to the tests he used her vision was excellent and she had no trouble with convergence or tracking. He did explain that the symptoms were consistent with what he has encountered with children with dyslexia and referred us to a neurodevelopental psychologist.

So... just out of curiosity... what would you do with that experience... if it were you/your child?

First, you were fine with "behavioral" ophthalmologist. Some of them use behavioral and others developmental. However, the fact that, as you report it, he had to "double check" after you brought up convergence and tracking indicates to me that his initial testing probably wasn't sufficient to detect such problems if they're of the subtle nature that a developmental optometrist diagnoses, and it's also likely that his "double-checking" wasn't either if I'm correct about the initial testing (and bear in mind, I might not be.....I'm pushing this because I'd be surprised if your daughter does not have a vision skills problem.)

As to what I would do, I'd do as Dobela suggests: go to www.covd.org (http://www.covd.org) and find the developmental optometrists nearest you. If your ophthalmologist is on their list and he either oversees a vision therapy department or refers routinely to one, I'd relax a bit. But if he's not on it, I'd be concerned about vision issues having been overlooked and would seek additional testing (which, I'll admit, can be pretty expensive.)

The link under my name goes to a page on my site that explains how I would go about locating a competent vision therapy provider. You might want to read it also, especially if you're trying to choose between two or more providers.

Rod Everson
Find a Vision Therapy Provider (http://ontrackreading.com/the-vision-piece/find-a-vision-therapy-provider/)

[zaichiki]

First, you were fine with "behavioral" ophthalmologist. Some of them use behavioral and others developmental. However, the fact that, as you report it, he had to "double check" after you brought up convergence and tracking indicates to me that his initial testing probably wasn't sufficient to detect such problems if they're of the subtle nature that a developmental optometrist diagnoses, and it's also likely that his "double-checking" wasn't either if I'm correct about the initial testing (and bear in mind, I might not be.....I'm pushing this because I'd be surprised if your daughter does not have a vision skills problem.)


Rod,
The "double checking" basically meant a couple of more in-depth tests specifically regarding convergence and tracking, because I brought up those concerns after the initial tests showed no issues.

I understand that the covd.org website is a good one, but Children's Hospital/Boston is the primary teaching hospital for Harvard and children come from all over the world for its pediatric ophthalmology. It is also a good resource. They have on-site vision therapy... and I have no doubt that the ophthalmologist understood my concerns. I don't feel as though he did an incomplete job. And, he was recommended by our pediatrician as a tops in his field.

I understand, also, that dyseidetic dyslexia is not an eye problem. There are kids who have HAD vision therapy and have had success with *that* issue, but STILL deal with symptoms from dyseidetic dyslexia.

[Dobela]

Okey dokey -- I should have typed "developmental ophthamologist," not "behavioral."

He is a well-known pediatric ophthamologist at Children's Hospital in Boston. They did extensive testing (more than an hour's worth). I specifically asked about convergence and tracking... AND I explained her issues losing her place on the page and within words. So -- he double checked. According to the tests he used her vision was excellent and she had no trouble with convergence or tracking. He did explain that the symptoms were consistent with what he has encountered with children with dyslexia and referred us to a neurodevelopental psychologist.

So... just out of curiosity... what would you do with that experience... if it were you/your child?
To give you another point of reference, my son's evaluation by the developmental optometrist lasted over 5 hours total. We went once for 3 hours and then a week later for follow up that lasted 2 hours. Friends of ours went to another DO and so far their son has had 2 appts for 2 hours each.

[zaichiki]

This (5 hours) was just for the testing?

We were in the office for 2 hours, but some of that was waiting.

So... would you say that the vision therapy 'cured' the dyslexia?

[Dobela]

This (5 hours) was just for the testing?

We were in the office for 2 hours, but some of that was waiting.

So... would you say that the vision therapy 'cured' the dyslexia?
Yes, that whole 5 hours was testing. I know some that have had less testing but I have not heard of less than 3 hours testing. The testing included a regular eye exam for a baseline then several other evaluations that measured many things from depth perception, to tracking, to convergence, and more. Not only did they look at my son's eyes, they watched his head movements when tracking was required, his body language for tracking activities, and more. One tracking eval consisted of him reading long lists of letters that were various distances apart from each other. Sometimes he had to read vertical, other times horizontal. He was timed, errors were looked at closely to find patterns, sometimes he wore prisms to change the eye input, sometimes he wore patches to assess one eye only, used color screens to see how they effected it, and much more... When he was finished the DO could tell us what each eye was doing together and individually, how it was effecting reading, why the eye was doing that and more.

Now, did it cure his dyslexia? No. There is no cure. However, it has made a huge difference in all of his academics. And because he is seeing better we are making huge progress. For example, in math he could not do horizontal problems if they were on the same page as vertical problems. His eyes could not change directions and have his brain process it. We had to do math either all oral, or all vertical, or all horizontal, but never mix any. We spent 18 months trying to complete 1 semesters worth of math, and then doing it mostly orally. In the 8 weeks after we started VT he stopped complaining about math making his eyes hurt and he then completed the second semester in 8 WEEKS.

His reading tutor says that even with the best tools he would not have been able to learn how to read without vision therapy because he just could not track at all. Because he couldn't track he couldn't put sounds to letters or blend. He didn't know he was reading the words wrong. He was frustrated because he would look at the same word several times and see the letters in a different order (or as changing by suddenly appearing) but he rarely does that any more. Before VT he described words jumping on the page, letters jumping, and more. He couldn't follow the lines on paper to do his handwriting legibly. In the 6 months since we have started VT he has moved up 2 grade levels in reading, a full grade level in math, a full level in grammar, and has now progressed to cursive because, as he says, "the lines aren't wiggling like worms anymore."

My son is still very behind - by at least 2 grade levels in reading and 1 in math. But the last few months have been like a breath of fresh air from the VT. It has changed our life. I used to spend all day just doing math, reading, and a little grammar and handwriting because it was such a struggle. Now we are doing those subjects plus science, social studies, and critical thinking every day in the same amount of time. He is for the first time feeling confident and smart. All because of vision therapy. It may not "cure" all of his learning problems, but it sure helped us.

If you go to the covd.org website, check out the page that has Signs and Symptoms. My son had all of them to some degree. I cried when I read that list. Some of the behaviors I had been punishing him for were signs of his vision problem and somethign he couldn't help.

[zaichiki]

My son is still very behind - by at least 2 grade levels in reading and 1 in math. But the last few months have been like a breath of fresh air from the VT. It has changed our life. I used to spend all day just doing math, reading, and a little grammar and handwriting because it was such a struggle. Now we are doing those subjects plus science, social studies, and critical thinking every day in the same amount of time. He is for the first time feeling confident and smart. All because of vision therapy. It may not "cure" all of his learning problems, but it sure helped us.

Well... after reading about your experience, I am positive that the developmental ophthalmologist who examined my dd is correct: it must be just the dyslexia. She doesn't struggle with the vision issues you describe your son having.

Although dd does lose her place within a word and on the page, it sounds more like the dyslexia and not more complicated vision issues. She is, after all, still able to read 2 grade levels ahead of age-grade level (250 page chapter books). Although she struggles to learn to spell, it IS coming along. She is doing much better after 6 months of AAS. I think spelling (visual memory) is her biggest struggle.

Dd's math doesn't seem to be affected, though she really can't figure out left from right, even with mnemonic devices -- which confuses me as she is a strong auditory learner. Dd often writes "d" when she wants "b" and vice versa -- but she corrects it almost immediately without prompting. I think her cursive handwriting is fine... and she has no trouble following the lines. In the last year she complains much less about her eyes bothering her after reading. (She does rub her eyes when reading in the evenings and when reading from black on white --like handouts/worksheets or whatnot.)

Honestly, it's really hard to tell what she *should* be able to do (except for the dyslexia), because she is compensating (high IQ). Someone posted on one of these forums that... if the gifted/LD child scores in the 99%ile on IQ tests, for example, then skill remediation should continue until the skills are also in the 99th %ile. That makes sense to me... but if it is true we still have a lot of work to do. But, really, who knows?

Thanks for sharing your experiences Dobela! It give me something to chew on...
:)

[Rod Everson]

I understand that the covd.org website is a good one, but Children's Hospital/Boston is the primary teaching hospital for Harvard and children come from all over the world for its pediatric ophthalmology. It is also a good resource. They have on-site vision therapy... and I have no doubt that the ophthalmologist understood my concerns. I don't feel as though he did an incomplete job. And, he was recommended by our pediatrician as a tops in his field.

While all of what you wrote is no doubt true, l can't help but notice that you haven't said conclusively that the particular ophthalmologist you saw routinely refers patients to their vision therapy department. The problem is that there is a philosophical divide between developmental optometry and ophthalmology and that many (most?) ophthalmologists just will not refer a child to vision therapy.

Your experience, and what you've taken from it, illustrates well the problem parents face in getting their children into vision therapy. Even after several exchanges, I cannot conclude from what you've said that your child doesn't need vision therapy. And you are extremely well informed. Imagine what the challenge must be for the average parent just taking their child to their regular optometrist and hearing, as they usually do, that nothing is wrong with their child's vision that glasses can't fix.

Then, toss in the expense, the time required, and the possibility that the nearest vision therapy department is two hours distant, and it becomes almost hopeless in many cases. It's very frustrating.

I understand, also, that dyseidetic dyslexia is not an eye problem. There are kids who have HAD vision therapy and have had success with *that* issue, but STILL deal with symptoms from dyseidetic dyslexia.The problem is that we really don't know much about dyslexia's causation yet. The dyseidetic/dysphonetic/dysphoneidetic distinction is a model proposed, I believe, by optometrists (Cardinal, Christianson and Griffin) to distinguish various underlying causes of a specific reading disability. While they hypothesized as to what is going on in the various areas of the brain in each case, they were just hypotheses relying upon certain research findings. We don't really even know if the model correctly explains reality, much less what the true underlying causal factors are.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not at all certain that a finding of "dyseidesia" means that a child will always struggle with reading. But I'm not saying that vision therapy is the entire answer either, nor even that there is a complete answer for every case. As for a "cure", even if a child eventually reads well and shows no symptoms of a previous reading problem, he will still be capable of passing the problem on to his children because I'm convinced that at least some aspect of dyslexia is genetic in nature.

Rod Everson
My Take on Dyslexia (http://ontrackreading.com/the-dyslexia-puzzle/my-take-on-dyslexia/)

PS: Speaking of the power of the internet, I was looking for the paper by Cardinal, et al, and Googled "origin term dyseidesia". Our little exchange here is #5 on the first page. Weird.

[Rod Everson]

In the last year she complains much less about her eyes bothering her after reading. (She does rub her eyes when reading in the evenings and when reading from black on white --like handouts/worksheets or whatnot.)


:)

I should explain that I posted the reply just above this one before I read your last post. Having read it, from what you say above, if she were my daughter she would be taken to a developmental optometrist. I would be amazed to find that she does not have a vision problem of some sort. Whether or not it can be fixed is another issue of course.

If she eventually reads with comfort it is likely that one of two things has occurred. Her brain has managed to train her eyes to work together, or her brain has decided to use the input from only one eye when reading while suppressing input from the other, a typical accommodation. Vision therapy is the best way to ensure that the first outcome is the one that occurs.

I hope this exchange is taken in the spirit I intend it, not to criticize you, but to provide information that might enable you to help your daughter. These discussions can become quite difficult at times.

Rod

[Dobela]

My gut tells me that you really need to seek a second opininon as far as VT. My son's needs are severe. But part of that is because we waited until he was 9 years old to address them. By the time we began he had learned to compensate in some bad ways, like Rod described above. We have to work even harder than a lot of kids because I just kept thinking I could correct his problems some other way or that it was a character flaw of some sort.

I can see that you really trust who you saw, but your dd is not making progress you want her to make and she is still struggling with vision - she is telling you that. The worst thing that will happen is that a developmental optometrist will say you don't need to do anything. Or maybe the worst thing is that she will need therapy. You will have to decide that. But 3 -5 hours of time and getting a second (or 6th) opinion to possibly discover a problem that can effect her for the rest of her life and her education is not that much time invested and certainly, in my opinion, is not time wasted.