Teenager/Family Problem (long and weepy)

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

My dear brother is at his wit's end with his almost 16 year old anorexic daughter.

He has joint custody with his ex-wife of the daughter. He recently had to take the mother to court to get their parenting plan/visitation enforced. Since the daughter has been made to comply, she has lost another 4 lbs. At her last doctors visit, she spoke privately with the doctor. The doctor then came out and blamed my brother for the weight loss citing that he's stressing her out.

Her mother does not make her attend school. She cites the girl's low blood sugar and health issues as her reason for letting her stay home. She has missed in excess of 40+ days of school and is failing. My brother will make her go to school only to have the ex-wife come and get her during lunch (and then take her to Starbucks) and to her home for the rest of the day. The school doesn't care because she has excuses from her mom, thus no truancy.

Her mother allows her to stay home with her mother's live in/semi-employed boyfriend, so she prefers her mother's home over my brother's. She is on the pill and is probably having sex while her mom's at work. Rumors around school suggest that she is smoking pot with my the live-in boyfriend. My brother has asked the police about this and they say she can do what she wants (!!!???).

My brother has no support. The doctor, ex-wife, police and school don't want to set any boundries for my niece. She has been in long-term hospitalization/anorexic care two times.
She will be 16 in May. Obviously,she wants to be in control of her life. OMHO, her anorexia is like a gun to her head. She keeps using it to get what she wants. The more boundries my brother sets, the more weight she loses.

So, I want to suggest to him that he let her go. Sounds awlfull, huh? He should take her out to dinner and explain to her that he is going to let her control her life -- all aspects. She can live full-time with her mom and he will let she and her mom decide what's best for her education. He will be available to her, but not for money beyond what is required. He will not get her out of jail or pay for any problems that are caused by her poor choices. He will still love her and support any postive efforts she makes,but they will be her own choices and consequences.

I don't see that he has a choice. If he set boundries and tries to stick to them, she will starve herself to death in rebellion.

I don't have teenagers and these problems are huge. I guess I'm just looking for validation that there are times when we have to let go of our kids to get them back.

I appreciate thoughts, prayers or whatever you can offer.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I think your advice is probably right. He really doesn't have a choice or any control.

If he does do this though, his daughter needs to understand that he is not writing her off and he needs to continue to see her and give her support. I think it is fine that he not insist on her staying with him during visitation, but I would hate this little girl to feel like her daddy doesn't care what happens to her and doesn't want to see her.

It is just a bad situation all around. I would actually see if he could get some legal advice about the custody/truancy thing. I know that when I was teaching I had a student who was truant with parental excuses... The police came to a joint meeting at the school with his parents and the boy was told that if he was not at school for the rest of the year, the police would come to his house and pick him up and take him not to school, but to social services and that if his parents didn't enforce his attendance, they would lose custody. He was younger than your niece, though so that may have influenced the police involvement.

Best, of course would be if he could just get custody.

[Old Dominion Heather]

Actually...Could dad report the situation to social services? He doesn't have custody, but if dad is pretty sure dd is having sex with the boyfriend and she is below the age of consent, it would be statutory rape. Also, she is endangered because of the anorexia and the drug use.

I'm not sure it would be the best plan in this case, but it might be an option.

[RoughCollie]

Disclaimer: I don't know much about family law, and this is not legal advice, just my opinion as an ordinary person.

It seems to me that your niece having anorexia is a pretty serious matter. It can kill her, and she doesn't have control over it.

If he were my brother, I would advise him to retain the best family law attorney he can find in his area and to go to court to get 100% legal custody of his child or to otherwise get a court order to help his DD as his attorney advises him to do. (If your brother does not live in a large city, have him find a lawyer who practices in a large city -- the pickings aren't as slim.)

Although this is not a legal definition of legal custody, in general, a parent with legal custody has legal authority to make decisions for his/her child on issues such as education, medical care, dental care, and religion.

Then I would advise him take his DD to the best physician he can find to be examined and to formulate a treatment plan. The doctor should be affiliated with a university medical center, and s/he should have a good reputation for successfully treating anorexia.

Obviously, the hospitalizations the child has already undergone have not done any good. This could be simply the nature of anorexia or it could be that she did not receive adequate treatment.

If the doctor advised hospitalization, I would find the best hospital available for her treatment, and admit her.

The legal fees will likely be very expensive and it is important to note that no attorney can ever guarantee a legal outcome in a case -- it is impossible to do and it is highly unethical. The medical treatment may also be very expensive, depending on the health insurance policy in effect.

If your brother cannot afford the legal fees, he can call his state bar association and ask them if there is anything they can do to help him try to save his daughter's life.

[RoughCollie]

That's a good idea, on the surface. Speaking as a criminal defense lawyer, and not giving legal advice, I would not advise a client to do that for one big reason: the father can get into a lot of trouble. All it takes is a vindictive ex-wife or an angry teenage daughter to say a few magic words, and the father could end up in jail on criminal charges.

I'm not saying that would happen, I'm saying I would not advise my client to take that risk.

The mother has a point of view here, too. If you heard her story, you'd probably feel sorry for her. Here's a sample: She has a child who has been hospitalized, long-term, twice for treatment for anorexia that has been unsuccessful. Her child continues to lose weight, and she can link some of it to her ex-husband's behavior, and her DD's doctor agreed with that. She is at her wits' end and doing the best she can and no matter what she does, her DD is still sick, too weak to attend school much, and could die from this. She would deny that her daughter is having s*x, using illegal drugs or has an unhealthy relationship with her live-in boyfriend.

This is why I would never in a million years practice family law.

Actually...Could dad report the situation to social services? He doesn't have custody, but if dad is pretty sure dd is having sex with the boyfriend and she is below the age of consent, it would be statutory rape. Also, she is endangered because of the anorexia and the drug use.

I'm not sure it would be the best plan in this case, but it might be an option.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

Disclaimer: I don't know much about family law.

It seems to me that your niece having anorexia is a pretty serious matter. It can kill her, and she doesn't have control over it.

If he were my brother, I would advise him to get retain the best family law attorney he can find in his area and to go to court to get 100% legal custody of his child or to otherwise get a court order to help his DD as his attorney advises him to do. (If your brother does not live in a large city, have him find a lawyer who practices in a large city -- the pickings aren't as slim.)

Although this is not a legal definition of legal custody, in general, a parent with legal custody has legal authority to make decisions for his/her child on issues such as education, medical care, dental care, and religion.

Then I would advise him take his DD to the best physician he can find to be examined and to formulate a treatment plan. The doctor should be affiliated with a university medical center, and s/he should have a good reputation for successfully treating anorexia.

Obviously, the hospitalizations the child has already undergone have not done any good. This could be simply the nature of anorexia or it could be that she did not receive adequate treatment.

If the doctor advised hospitalization, I would find the best hospital available for her treatment, and admit her.

The legal fees will likely be very expensive and it is important to note that no attorney can ever guarantee a legal outcome in a case -- it is impossible to do and it is highly unethical. The medical treatment may also be expensive, depending on the health insurance policy in effect.

Yes, your plan sounds good. Unfortunatly, he has been down that road to an extent.

The child was treated on two different occasions at Seattle's Children's Hospital(6+week stays). My brother and his wife underwent family counseling and my niece continues with counseling.

The bottom line is that setting boundries is not a priority for my ex-SIL. She has referred to the fact that she feels my niece is more of a sister to her than a daughter. She blames her weight loss on my brother's controlling behavior (like making her get up and go to school) and she's got my niece's doctor to agree.

My brother has been through 2 lawyers and the outcome was unsatisfactory. My brother and SIL divorced and she got quite a large bit of his assets, so more lawyer fees are questionable at this time.

My niece resents any attempt to control her. Like I said, she uses her anorexia as a tool to control her life.

It's a very upsetting situation.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

My brother met up with her ex in a restaurant and she had the police called. She said he verbally assaulted her. She had left the sick daughter at home to attend a party at the restaurant.

He won't make that mistake again.

Do you see why I want to advise him to let her go?

Crazy world.

[Tracey in TX]

If it were my brother I would encourage him to get sole custody and take steps needed to get her life in order. Begin by getting her out of her normal environment and friends/boyfriend. They're fueling her energy.
I wasn't anorexic, but spent years battling bulemia. It's a baffling disease and really is all about control. But being allowed to be out of control is equally harmful and counterproductive.
Mom has every reason to want to nurture and protect DD, but is only making the situation lethal. Can social services, police, school administration, etc help DH approach her with a rational approach to help your niece?

My heart goes out to you and your family.

[RoughCollie]

I snipped your reply for brevity only.

This kind of huge, awful mess happens too often in divorce cases. It is heartbreaking for everyone involved. Too often the legal outcome is unjust.

One thing your brother could do is to find a local father's rights organization. It helps to have a support group, even if it is online and not IRL.

There are father's rights organizations. Here is a sample:

http://www.fathersrightsinc.com/

http://www.ancpr.org/

http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/Home.htm

http://www.deltabravo.net/

A comprehensive list of links is here:

http://www.menstuff.org/resources/resourcefiles/fathers.html

It may also help your brother to see a therapist just for himself. He must be feeling frustrated, fearful, sad, confused, hopeless, and angry about this -- to name a few of the whirlwind of emotions situations like this engender. A therapist could help him sort through this.




It's a very upsetting situation.

[RoughCollie]

Yes, I can see why you would give him that advice.

At this point, taking into consideration everything you have said, I would give him the same advice.

If I were he, I would continue to have visitation with her (in many states, she can refuse to see him at her age, so that would be within her control), I would continue to make all monetary payments required by my divorce agreement, and I would give her gifts at birthdays and major holidays (gift cards, not cash, for example).

I would tell her that I love her frequently, during phone calls and visits, and I would mail cards to her from time to time, too. She may not appreciate it on the surface, but I bet she saves the cards. The key idea is that your brother needs to save the relationship between himself and his DD, if only because it is vitally important to her (whether she shows it or not). He can do this by his ongoing loving presence in her life, and by paying the monies required of him by the court.

I would also ask an attorney whether I should relinquish legal custody of my DD, so that I did not get into any trouble if my ex-wife were negligent or abusive. I bring this up because it seems to me (not based on my legal training) that there may be a nexus between having legal custody and being held legally responsible for what happens to that child with regard to medical care and education in particular. In other words, I'd be worried about what happens if the mother does something wrong and I am held responsible for it because I had the legal power to intervene, but did not.

I wouldn't say that you are advising him to "let her go". To me, your advice speaks to him not getting involved in situations with his DD over which he has no control at all and in which his advice is not wanted or heeded. He is beating his head against a brick wall, and that is unhealthy.

P.S. Based on what you've said, I'd be surprised if your brother could get sole custody of his DD without spending a lot of money and getting a lot of evidence that his ex-wife is an unfit mother. In most, if not all states, the family courts pretty much let children of this age choose which parent they want to live with as long as the chosen parent agrees to it.


My brother met up with her ex in a restaurant and she had the police called. She said he verbally assaulted her. She had left the sick daughter at home to attend a party at the restaurant.

He won't make that mistake again.

Do you see why I want to advise him to let her go?

Crazy world.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I forwarded this thread to my mom and it really helped us with how we advise my brother. It has been a rough few years for him.

RoughCollie, I appreciate the clarity you brought to the situation. I am a bit "cold hearted" so I wasn't sure if my advice was out of line. My heart says try to get sole custody and fight to get her straightened out, but my head says you can't change another person, we need to keep her perspective in mind, and there are so many risks to all involved if it gets any uglier.

Thanks again. I'm much more at ease. :grouphug::
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[Danestress]

This is a really hard problem! I'm so sorry about your neice. Is she the only child of the union? How long have the been divorced?

What I am hearing in your post (which is based on what you hear from DB) is that everyone in this situation is a problem except your brother. The Ex is a problem. The police are a problem. The school is a problem. The doctor is a problem. In a way, it sounds like the daughter is a problem.

This is sort of a red flag for me. I have to honestly say that in my family law practice when I heard that from a parent, it was almost never really the case. Generally when a client came in and I got stories like, "the police say she can do what she wants," I was skeptical. There is usually a long complicated history and it's doubtful any of us ever have the "whole" truth, but I have to be honest and say that I bet when his attorney calls the ex's attorney, he hears another side that also has some truth, some reason, some untruth, and then all the normal anger, frustration and fear. These situations are so so hard and it's really hard to have real clarity about something that is so heart breaking as watching a daughter self destruct.

My advice is that your brother listen very carefully to all the other players and that he pray for understanding. If the doctor is saying that your brother is aggravating the anorexia problem by stressing her out, that doesn't mean it's true. The doctor might be stupid, unfamiliar with the case, a liar, or out to get your brother. But the chances are that there is a reason he thinks that, and even if it's not the full truth, there may be some helpful truth in it. Maybe it's not just that he makes her go to school, but the way they have conflict on the mornings he's trying to get her up and out.

If the police aren't responding to "rumors" that she is smoking pot, that's likely for a reason. Police can't always act on rumors. They generally must act on probable cause. They aren't going to go do a drug bust because someone once said that she might be smoking pot there. But he might just want to ask again, "I'm not sure I understand. This is what I am reporting, why is it that you can't look into this because I am really worried" and then really listen to the answer.

I don't think it's a terrible idea in a situation like this for a parent to say "I understand you want to live with your Mom. Okay. You can do that. I'm really worried about you and I want you to know I am always here and that there is no mistake you will ever make that will take you out of my love because love never dies. So don't ever feel you have messed anything up so much that I won't help. I will always help. I may not help exactly the way you want - I might not offer finacial help, but I will always support and love you."

On the other hand, he might not want to just let her live with Mom. Is there a recent modification of the custody and visitation? Or was the last action a contempt action, or what? I always always asked that a court order the other parent not to have overnight guests of the opposite gender when the child is spending the night (unless it was my client who didn't want that order) and usually I could get that. Most judges are fully aware of the kinds of problems that come up with Mom has a live in lover. Did his attorney ask for that? I just really don't think any kid should live with a parents live in boyfriend/girlfriend, and Mom leaving her home all day with him .... makes me nervous. But I will say that while it's not true that kids this age get to choose who to live with (most judges have also raised teens, and they aren't stupid) it is true that the teenagers preferences are often important, and that regardless of what a judge orders, it's pretty hard to MAKE a teenagers go where they refuse to go. Does she actually not want to be with your DB, or does she just not want to live there? Is she willing to see him? Have a meal with him?

I don't know a lot about Anorexia. I doubt it's really entirely in your neice's control. I do wonder if part of the school problem is that two long-term hospitalizations have set her back academically. Is she struggling with understanding her courses? Are the 40 days out of school this year in addition to being out for some of that hospitalization time? I wonder if she's just a mess from starving herself and from being absent and if she's just lost faith in her ability to handle school. It just be hard to concentrate when you don't eat.

I don't think they can do truancy on a kid over 16 though, so this situation is probably about to get a lot more difficult. I know in NC a child who is 16 can legally drop out, and I think that's true in most jurisdictions. So very soon, no one will be able to make her go to school and the school really won't be able to report her truant anyway. If she lived with your DH full time and didn't want to attend school, what would he do? Does he have a plan for that? What would she do living with Mom if she chooses not to go to school? I think this is my personal nightmare - having a child who refuses to school but is too young to kick out:( What a really tough situation!

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

This is a really hard problem! I'm so sorry about your neice. Is she the only child of the union?No, she has a 17 year old brother who is a good student, nice kid, worries over her. How long have the been divorced? six months, separated 18 months.

What I am hearing in your post (which is based on what you hear from DB) is that everyone in this situation is a problem except your brother. The Ex is a problem. The police are a problem. The school is a problem. The doctor is a problem. In a way, it sounds like the daughter is a problem.The police, school and doctor may not be problems, they just aren't helpful!

This is sort of a red flag for me. I have to honestly say that in my family law practice when I heard that from a parent, it was almost never really the case. Generally when a client came in and I got stories like, "the police say she can do what she wants," I was skeptical. There is usually a long complicated history and it's doubtful any of us ever have the "whole" truth, but I have to be honest and say that I bet when his attorney calls the ex's attorney, he hears another side that also has some truth, some reason, some untruth, and then all the normal anger, frustration and fear. These situations are so so hard and it's really hard to have real clarity about something that is so heart breaking as watching a daughter self destruct.

Yes, I agree that I am getting only one side of the story. I know marriages rarely fail because of one person. My brother, unlike me, is a pretty emotional guy. He has never hit anyone, but can probably be verbally abusive (I know that is a weakness of mine). I am 3K miles away, so I have nothing concrete to go on.

My advice is that your brother listen very carefully to all the other players and that he pray for understanding. If the doctor is saying that your brother is aggravating the anorexia problem by stressing her out, that doesn't mean it's true. The doctor might be stupid, unfamiliar with the case, a liar, or out to get your brother. But the chances are that there is a reason he thinks that, and even if it's not the full truth, there may be some helpful truth in it. Maybe it's not just that he makes her go to school, but the way they have conflict on the mornings he's trying to get her up and out.

He was given advise by the doctors and Children's to provide his daughter with structure and boundries. Most 16 year olds don't like it. They were pretty permissive and doting parents and this is a drastic change from their past parenting styles. My SIL believe in the be the child's friend, not parent (she noted this in her divorce decree and I've observed this myself). So, my brother looks like a SOB. True.

If the police aren't responding to "rumors" that she is smoking pot, that's likely for a reason. Police can't always act on rumors. They generally must act on probable cause. They aren't going to go do a drug bust because someone once said that she might be smoking pot there. But he might just want to ask again, "I'm not sure I understand. This is what I am reporting, why is it that you can't look into this because I am really worried" and then really listen to the answer.
I totally agree with you. I suggested that he discuss having a drug test done on her urine at her next dr. visit. Her aunt has a history of drug abuse and we all are concerned that she could fall prey to it also.

I don't think it's a terrible idea in a situation like this for a parent to say "I understand you want to live with your Mom. Okay. You can do that. I'm really worried about you and I want you to know I am always here and that there is no mistake you will ever make that will take you out of my love because love never dies. So don't ever feel you have messed anything up so much that I won't help. I will always help. I may not help exactly the way you want - I might not offer finacial help, but I will always support and love you."

Thank you, these are excellent ideas!

On the other hand, he might not want to just let her live with Mom. Is there a recent modification of the custody and visitation? Or was the last action a contempt action, or what? Yes, my sister in law was refusing to bring my niece over to her father's. I always always asked that a court order the other parent not to have overnight guests of the opposite gender when the child is spending the night (unless it was my client who didn't want that order) and usually I could get that. Most judges are fully aware of the kinds of problems that come up with Mom has a live in lover. Did his attorney ask for that? Nope, this is Washington State, ya know! I just really don't think any kid should live with a parents live in boyfriend/girlfriend, and Mom leaving her home all day with him .... makes me nervous. ITA!But I will say that while it's not true that kids this age get to choose who to live with (most judges have also raised teens, and they aren't stupid) it is true that the teenagers preferences are often important, and that regardless of what a judge orders, it's pretty hard to MAKE a teenagers go where they refuse to go. This is what my SIL said and she refused to let my brother speak on the phone with his daughter, thus the contempt charge. Does she actually not want to be with your DB, or does she just not want to live there? Is she willing to see him? Have a meal with him?She is willing to see him if it means a nice meal out and shopping. If it means staying the night and going to school the next morning...NO.

I don't know a lot about Anorexia. I doubt it's really entirely in your neice's control. I do wonder if part of the school problem is that two long-term hospitalizations have set her back academically. Is she struggling with understanding her courses? My uncle teachers at her school. She has been offered afterschool tutoring and plenty of help. Are the 40 days out of school this year in addition to being out for some of that hospitalization time? No, she hasn't been hospitalized this school year. She will be too weak to go to school, but will go out of town and hang out with friends on the weekends. I wonder if she's just a mess from starving herself and from being absent and if she's just lost faith in her ability to handle school. Probably true. It just be hard to concentrate when you don't eat.

I don't think they can do truancy on a kid over 16 though, so this situation is probably about to get a lot more difficult. I know in NC a child who is 16 can legally drop out, and I think that's true in most jurisdictions. So very soon, no one will be able to make her go to school and the school really won't be able to report her truant anyway. If she lived with your DH full time and didn't want to attend school, what would he do? Does he have a plan for that? This is one reason I think he should let her live with her mom - so her mom will have to deal with her lack of motivation. What would she do living with Mom if she chooses not to go to school?Her mother works for a small loan company and assures her she will get her a job there. I think this is my personal nightmare - having a child who refuses to school but is too young to kick out:( What a really tough situation!

I would love to figure out how my SIL thinks this is all going to work out. Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate all of it.

[Adrianne]

So, I want to suggest to him that he let her go. Sounds awlfull, huh? He should take her out to dinner and explain to her that he is going to let her control her life -- all aspects. She can live full-time with her mom and he will let she and her mom decide what's best for her education. He will be available to her, but not for money beyond what is required. He will not get her out of jail or pay for any problems that are caused by her poor choices. He will still love her and support any postive efforts she makes,but they will be her own choices and consequences.


I agree with you. He needs to stop letting her use the anorexia to manipulate people. Though he might want to add something that allows her to come back to him for support if she wants to straighten out her life.

It sounds like she is screaming for help (anorexia) but does not know that he has the help she needs. It seems he is the only one who truly cares about her well being.

I guess you could call it tough love.

My prayers are with you and your brother and this lost young girl. Please keep us posted.