Are there Protestant sects that do not believe in cutting their hair?

[PrairieAir]

I just read something on a blog. A woman had made a comment to the blogger that she had thought she (the blogger) was one of those Protestants that doesn't cut their hair. Okay, that made me laugh, but it also made me curious. My Google search only turned up information on the Amish. From the pictures on her blog, I don't think anyone could confuse her for Amish! The Nazarite vow of the Old Testament had a requirement about not cutting the hair. That's all I can think of.

[BamaTanya]

Some United Pentecostal Church members practice this.

[Plaid Dad]

I don't know if it was a denominational teaching or a matter of personal conviction, but my grandmother didn't cut her hair based on 1 Corinthians 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=11&verse=15&version=9&context=verse). She also didn't wear gold or pearls (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=9&version=9&context=verse). She belonged to the Church of God (Anderson, IN).

[Daisy]

Pentecostal Holiness don't cut their hair & they wear skirts

[PrairieAir]

This is interesting. I thought of another question. For those that don't believe in cutting their hair, is it a matter of not cutting it at all (like in trimming) or just keeping it long?

[RebeccaC]

My parents belonged to the UPC (United Pentecostal Church) when I was growing up. My dad was academic dean at one of their Bible Colleges for a few years in the 60s. For years I had hair that reached to my knees. When I was 6-9 I lived in the women's dorm and the girls would fix my hair. Well the last time they fixed my hair it was in what was called a Bee Hive and they used a product called Dippity Do a styling gel. I think I was around 7 or so because I had just gotten my front teeth. Any way a Bee Hive meant that there was a lot of back combing (teasing) done to my hair. The Dippity Do meant that the back combing would not be undone. My folks worked for 3 months to try and comb the tangles out of my hair and they never did all come out.

We spent each summer living in the Chicago area with my Grandfather and I remember sitting on a phone book in his living room as the fight to save my hair was given up. Both my parents cried as my hair which was a nasty rats nest was cut to ear length. I remember my grandmother crying when she saw all my hair gone. By the time we went back to CA where the college was in the fall my hair was just touching the back of my neck and the newest rule for the girls dorm was no hair do fixes for profs kids :blink::thumbdown:

Next time I cut my hair which was again knee length was in my early 20s when I left the UPC and joined an American Baptist church. I did not tell anyone I was going to cut my hair and I passed my sister and several other folks on the street who did not recognize me :rolleyes:

When I belonged to the UPC long hair was not the only restriction. Once you were an adult hair had to be worn up. I attended one of their Bible College in the late 70s and the rule was hair worn down was bedroom hair only and outside the bedroom it had to be pinned up with no hair touching the collar of the dress being worn. Some churches even went so far as to not allow the women to shave their legs which lent to interesting patterns when wearing nylons :eek: I never attended such a church but I have family members who did.

Anyway this is probably more than you wanted :001_huh:

[SnowWhite]

This is interesting. I thought of another question. For those that don't believe in cutting their hair, is it a matter of not cutting it at all (like in trimming) or just keeping it long?

I have this conviction (we're a nondenominational Christian church, not UPC), and for me it is no cutting at all. Same scripture quoted above, I believe. (I'll go read it in a bit to make sure). We believe our hair is given us "for a covering", not to be covered by a covering as the Amish and Mennonites believe. The verse (if it's the same one) goes on to talk about it being a shame for a woman's hair to be shorn or shaven... It's clear as crystal to me, but that's because I grew up believing this way.

We don't have legalistic ideas about how to wear it, just to keep it long.

ETA: the verses that talk about being shorn and shaven are just before the one about hair being given for a covering, not after.

[LizzyBee]

The more conservative Mennonites don't cut their hair.

[PrairieAir]

Wow, Rebecca, that was all very interesting! Not too much at all. I love hearing those kinds of details.

Snow White, thank you too for sharing about your beliefs.

I tell ya, I learn something new everyday--even from blogs and message boards;)

[astrid]

1

[Diana in OR]

When I belonged to the UPC long hair was not the only restriction. Once you were an adult hair had to be worn up. I attended one of their Bible College in the late 70s and the rule was hair worn down was bedroom hair only and outside the bedroom it had to be pinned up with no hair touching the collar of the dress being worn.


I have extremely thick, heavy hair, and it doesn't stay "up" very well at all, especially when it's past my shoulders. How do women with thick hair manage to keep their hair up? Do they get bad headaches from it? (I know I do.)

I've always been curious about that, b/c I've seen Mennonite women with beautiful hair, and it looks really nice worn up, but wondered what those with thick, heavy hair do about it?

[RebeccaC]

I have extremely thick, heavy hair, and it doesn't stay "up" very well at all, especially when it's past my shoulders. How do women with thick hair manage to keep their hair up? Do they get bad headaches from it? (I know I do.)

I've always been curious about that, b/c I've seen Mennonite women with beautiful hair, and it looks really nice worn up, but wondered what those with thick, heavy hair do about it?


My hair is semi curly and not real thick but wearing it up did give me headaches and a tense neck. When I cut my hair in my 20s what surprised me was that when I turned my head it was like I was whipping my head around :001_huh: Not sure I am describing this right. Anyway I had not realized how much effort I put into turning and lifting my head until all the hair was gone and it took a couple of days to get use to the lightness. I used to joke that I got whiplash when I cut all my hair off :001_smile: It was like a great weight had been lifted off my head and it was easier to wash, take care of, and sleep with. When my hair was real long I had to gather it together and drape it over my pillow to the floor or while rolling around in my sleep it would wrap around my arms or throat which would choke me or I would turn over and it would pull which hurt and would wake me up.

The buns that we wore our hair in could be quite elaborate and would make a Mennonite woman blush. It took a lot of time getting it up and then some gals would wrap it in toilet paper to sleep in so that it would not get all messed up. I did that only when I had the Bee Hive. My fathers mother was Amish and she would never wear her long hair up like we did at times. Simple bun at the back of her neck.

As a kid I had two long braids except on Saturday night and all day Sunday. Saturday night my mother took long strips of sheets and wrapped our hair in it and then unwrap it Sunday morning. This was what my mother and grandmother (mom's mom) called rag curls and it would curl our hair in long ringlets. I really thought I was cool when the college girls would do my hair up on Saturdays but I think that only lasted a year till the Bee Hive fiasco.

[Myrtle]

My parents belonged to the UPC (United Pentecostal Church) when I was growing up. My dad was academic dean at one of their Bible Colleges for a few years in the 60s. For years I had hair that reached to my knees. When I was 6-9 I lived in the women's dorm and the girls would fix my hair. Well the last time they fixed my hair it was in what was called a Bee Hive and they used a product called Dippity Do a styling gel. I think I was around 7 or so because I had just gotten my front teeth. Any way a Bee Hive meant that there was a lot of back combing (teasing) done to my hair. The Dippity Do meant that the back combing would not be undone. My folks worked for 3 months to try and comb the tangles out of my hair and they never did all come out.

We spent each summer living in the Chicago area with my Grandfather and I remember sitting on a phone book in his living room as the fight to save my hair was given up. Both my parents cried as my hair which was a nasty rats nest was cut to ear length. I remember my grandmother crying when she saw all my hair gone. By the time we went back to CA where the college was in the fall my hair was just touching the back of my neck and the newest rule for the girls dorm was no hair do fixes for profs kids :blink::thumbdown:

Next time I cut my hair which was again knee length was in my early 20s when I left the UPC and joined an American Baptist church. I did not tell anyone I was going to cut my hair and I passed my sister and several other folks on the street who did not recognize me :rolleyes:

When I belonged to the UPC long hair was not the only restriction. Once you were an adult hair had to be worn up. I attended one of their Bible College in the late 70s and the rule was hair worn down was bedroom hair only and outside the bedroom it had to be pinned up with no hair touching the collar of the dress being worn. Some churches even went so far as to not allow the women to shave their legs which lent to interesting patterns when wearing nylons :eek: I never attended such a church but I have family members who did.

Anyway this is probably more than you wanted :001_huh:

I grew up in such a church. Some also felt that braiding was a sin, it had something to do with a prohibition against "plating/platting" the hair. I don't remember the exact phrasing scripture. At any rate, I remember one of my cousins getting into an argument that "fish bone" is not the same thing as braiding and that she should be allowed to do it.

We also wore our sleeves over our elbows and skirts past the knee.
No dancing, drinking, or tv.

Best Memories: Spotless houses, really good food cooked from scratch, and bluegrass.

[Karin]

I researched this when a friend of mine was considering joining a conservative Mennonite church, and there are a variety of things, but some of the articles I read said no cutting of hair of any kind based on I Corinthians 11. I was actually researching head coverings because of a great question she had asked me. While I was always taught that head covering had to do with a man's authority over his wife, she asked a question about context.

So, I took a look at the Bible as a whole, not just this one section, and heard a very well researched teaching about the church at Corinth, and the way I understand it is that it is not a command to us to wear a literal headcovering or to not cut our hair at all. However, if that is someone's conviction, they should do it based on Romans 15. One of the things to bear in mind is that there was a lot of Greek, gnostic and pagan traditions and beliefs that were being taught and practised in the early Christian church. I Timothy deals with a number of these different teachings, including the one in I Tim 2, which actually is most likely to mean (the Greek isn't 100 percent clear, but if you study the entire passage plus gnostic and pagan teachings in the Ephesus area at the time) that women were to learn (silence and subjection is apparently an ancient Hebrew saying/formula for learning for men, too) but not to teach that Eve was formed first, etc. Just for an eg. There were also many things going on in Corinth.

[ncmomo3]

Pentecostal Holiness don't cut their hair & they wear skirts

Pentecostal Holiness chick chiming in here. I have SHORT, trendy hair(stacked up the back and longer,hanging in my eyes in the front) with bold highlighted streaks. Wear makeup. Wear shorts and cropped pants.This goes for many/most in my church too, of about 500 or so.
I'd cry if I couldn't cut my hair--I would have to find a new hobby--lol
I must be a different brand of Pentecostal Holiness. Go figure.

[RebeccaC]

I grew up in such a church. Some also felt that braiding was a sin, it had something to do with a prohibition against "plating/platting" the hair. I don't remember the exact phrasing scripture. At any rate, I remember one of my cousins getting into an argument that "fish bone" is not the same thing as braiding and that she should be allowed to do it.

We also wore our sleeves over our elbows and skirts past the knee.
No dancing, drinking, or tv.

Best Memories: Spotless houses, really good food cooked from scratch, and bluegrass.

No wedding rings or wrist watches or jewelry of any kind :001_smile: Couldn't let your collar bone show, no make up, ect...... the more Conservative churches did not allow braiding of the hair and they were also the ones who did not allow women to shave their legs and I never did understand where that came from. Couldn't wear solid red because that was the color of Christ blood and street walkers worked in the red light district must shun the very appearance of evil. No facial hair for men and their hair could not cover their ears.

I remember in the 60s at the college my dad taught at the girls wanted to wear hose that did not have seams in them and that was forbidden. Needed the seams to show that they had what little of their legs that showed had some sort of covering on them. However when I went to college in 79 and 80 we could not wear hose with seams or that were colored other than flesh tone. My roommate came from a church that did head coverings and she wore what she called a veilo, Spanish word and I probably spelled it wrong. It was a triangle of lace that came down to her earlobes and the nape of her neck.

Tell ya what my grandma made the best fried chicken. My dad's parents were born in 1898 and my mother's at the turn of the century. My mom's folks had a cattle ranch in OK with no in door plumbing and I lived with them for a few years. It was like living in a whole nother time. Stress was low and life was simple.

Of course I was ruined by getting a higher education ;) I joined the Air Guard to pay for grad school and that was scandalous but by then folks were used to me doing the outrageous. When I left the guard after the gulf war, stopped going to school and had got pregnant my grandmother clapped her hands and laughed for joy. She knew right then that I would be all right. In her mind there was no higher calling than being a mom and I was surprised to find out she was right :001_smile: I know she would be proud of my hsing maybe not my hair or slacks but my hsing and being a sahm would bust her seams :D

[Mrs. H.]

The UPC has changed over the years (my mom is a member, and I was raised UPC, but I don't attend one now). Many members wear wedding rings and watches, the ladies now often wear their super-long hair down instead of up, and they wear short sleeves, braid their hair, the men have facial hair and wear short sleeves, etc. Many members have tv now, too, and computers with internet. The times, they are a-changing.

I remember it was much more restrictive when I was a kid. If you go to a small Apostolic church instead of UPC, you will still find many congregations who wear no jewelry of any kind, put their hair up, and even some churches that forbid ladies to wear skirts with zippers in the front (like a blue jean skirt).

[TwinMominTX]

do you know what the scriptural basis for these rules are? Genuinely curious!

Thanks!

[RebeccaC]

do you know what the scriptural basis for these rules are? Genuinely curious!

Thanks!

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 1 Corinthians 11:5
But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

1 Corinthians 11:6
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head

1 Corinthians 11:15
but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

and

1 Peter 3:3
Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses;

1 Tim is pair with Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."
The terms in 1 Tim are a bit vague and so are open to a wide view of interpretation and I guess not shaving legs falls in there some where maybe under modesty :001_huh:

I did not leave solely on this matter but on other doctrinal issues as in the literal interpretation of Acts 2:38 that unless one was baptized in Jesus name and spoke in tongues they were not save and on the oneness doctrine which held if you believed in the trinity you could not be saved.

The UPC had an organizational split in the mid 80s those who did not want to keep the dress code and were a bit more open on the other doctrines left and formed their own organization. My parents who had been part of the upper levels of the UPC left then and joined the Assemblies of God. My dad who has a Ph.D from U of Chicago in ancient Biblical languages now teaches for Fuller Seminary. I left before my parents did but one of my sisters is married to a UPC pastor. I have siblings in just about every domination from Southern Baptist to UPC. I attend a non-denominational church that used to be a Congregationalist church. My leaving was one of the hardest decisions I ever made and was not done lightly or in anger or rebellion but with a lot of prayer and soul searching for where God was leading. I have extend family members and friends who feared for my soul and who cut relationship with me years ago because of that decision.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Chuch of God does not cut hair, wear jewelry or wedding rings. They can wear watches, as they are functional. Some of DH's family attends this church. I do not agree with the wedding ring part, especially since they can wear watches, but it's not my decision.

While it is not a denomination, some very conservative members of the church of Christ don't cut their hair. (This is not the United church of Christ that Ombama attends, which is a denomination.)

I *think* the Assembly of God doesn't.

I did think all Pentacostal Holiness did, it surprises me that some don't. This is a very interesting thread!

[Mrs. H.]

I do not agree with the wedding ring part, especially since they can wear watches, but it's not my decision.

My mom didn't wear any jewelry for years, and then she got hit on by a man at the hospital where she worked. When she told him she was married, he immediately made a snarky comment about her 'not wearing a ring.' She went out and bought a simple wedding ring that weekend.

I know that the pastor in the Apostolic church my mom used to go to (before she became UPC) would always say that people should be able to tell you are married by your behavior and demeanor, not by an outward symbol like a ring, but in my mom's case, a wedding ring would have protected her from unwanted attention.

[Lorna in the boonies]

Chuch of God does not cut hair, wear jewelry or wedding rings. They can wear watches, as they are functional. Some of DH's family attends this church. I do not agree with the wedding ring part, especially since they can wear watches, but it's not my decision.

While it is not a denomination, some very conservative members of the church of Christ don't cut their hair. (This is not the United church of Christ that Ombama attends, which is a denomination.)

I *think* the Assembly of God doesn't.

I did think all Pentacostal Holiness did, it surprises me that some don't. This is a very interesting thread!

Assemblies of God pastor's wife chiming in to say that we cut our hair, we wear makeup (well, I don't, but it has nothing to do with my belief system), we wear pants, and we wear jewelry.:001_smile:

I'm sure there are A/G adherents who don't do these things out of conviction, but as far as the church belief system goes, these things are fine.

[*anj*]

I *think* the Assembly of God doesn't.


Maybe it depends on the local congregation, but I have a good friend whose dh is an AG pastor and she wears makeup, jewelry, pants, does whatever she likes with her hair, etc. And she definitely shaves, so like I said it's probably a regional or church-by-church type thing.

[Karin]

[I][I]1
I did not leave solely on this matter but on other doctrinal issues as in the literal interpretation of Acts 2:38 that unless one was baptized in Jesus name and spoke in tongues they were not save and on the oneness doctrine which held if you believed in the trinity you could not be saved.
.

Just out of curiousity, is the UPC a biblical unitarian church? What I mean is, do they believe that Jesus is the son of God but not God? Or do they believe that God and Jesus are God but the "holy ghost" is not? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not go into this here. I'm not sure if everyone checks for PM's so I'm asking here.

[KarenNC]

My mother's best friend (and neighbor) growing up in the 40s and 50s was Church of God here in the South. From what she and my grandmother used to tell me, the friend's mother would come down to my grandmother's house to get a permanent. She would have my grandmother trim her hair and then tell her husband that it "broke off" because she wasn't supposed to cut her hair. Now the friend had short hair (based on the pictures of them as late teens and when I knew her as an adult woman), so I don't know if this only applied to married women, only some women in the church chose to do this, her husband just didn't want her to cut her hair and it had nothing to do with the church, if the teaching changed between the friend being a child and being a teenager, or what. I got the impression that it was church-related, however.

When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, beehives were called the "Church of God hairdo". Don't know if this was only in my family or more widespread---can't remember.

Assembly of God has definitely been in the haircutting camp at minimum from the 70s, based on personal observation (both from within and without the denomination).

[RebeccaC]

Just out of curiousity, is the UPC a biblical unitarian church? What I mean is, do they believe that Jesus is the son of God but not God? Or do they believe that God and Jesus are God but the "holy ghost" is not? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not go into this here. I'm not sure if everyone checks for PM's so I'm asking here.

No it is modalism, http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/Modalism/ It denies the personal relationship within the Trinity that appears in many place in the word. Example would be the baptism of Jesus which has Jesus, the Father speaking and the Holy Spirit like a dove. My dad used to debate other churches and atheist for the UPC when I was a kid on oneness vs the Trinity. Most UPC folks really do not fully understand what it is that they believe. When I was a kid they used to like to call themselves Jesus only people.

Hope this made sense.

[PrairieAir]

No it is modalism, http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/Modalism/ It denies the personal relationship within the Trinity that appears in many place in the word. Example would be the baptism of Jesus which has Jesus, the Father speaking and the Holy Spirit like a dove. My dad used to debate other churches and atheist for the UPC when I was a kid on oneness vs the Trinity. Most UPC folks really do not fully understand what it is that they believe. When I was a kid they used to like to call themselves Jesus only people.

Hope this made sense.

Oh I am so confused!:001_huh::confused1::001_unsure:

[chiguirre]

If you don't cut your hair, how do you keep the ends looking neat? I seem to get ratty ends once my hair gets past my shoulders even though I don't use a hair dryer (dss sensory issues :bigear: :bigear:) So what's your secret?

[RebeccaC]

Maybe these will help,

http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a63.htm

Look there are a lot of really good people who believe this and some even in the early church. Just in my own Bible reading I found I could not hold this belief. I knew when I left it would hurt a lot of folks and especially since this was my dad specialty. Which is funny because he no longer holds to modalism. Anyway the dress code was a problem for me but the theology was a bigger problem. So I left because of the theology and losing the dress code was the icing on the cake :001_smile:

Sorry your thread morphed PrairieAir and I wish I could be clearer about it all :001_huh: However it has been my experience that the strict dress code almost always goes hand in hand with modalism.

[Karin]

Anyway the dress code was a problem for me but the theology was a bigger problem. So I left because of the theology and losing the dress code was the icing on the cake :001_smile:

Sorry your thread morphed PrairieAir and I wish I could be clearer about it all :001_huh: However it has been my experience that the strict dress code almost always goes hand in hand with modalism.

Thanks, Rebecca. (Sorry, PairieAi, didn't mean to hijack.) These threads made it very clear. I'm always learning a new way that people think about these things.

[PrairieAir]

No problem with the hijack. I find it all very interesting.

And I understand the words they are saying in those first two links, it's just all still very confusing to me. I know we've had this discussion before about oneness vs. trinity. Maybe it's difficult for me because I don't believe either one. In some respects they sound the same. In other respects each sounds more like my beliefs. Yet none of the three match up. Then there are the many, many different ways I've heard the trinity explained. I think that regardless of the doctrine of their denomination, many people really do have different understandings and beliefs about what the trinity means. I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs. I'm just sayin' that thinking about it sometimes makes me a little dizzy:willy_nilly:

[RebeccaC]

No problem with the hijack. I find it all very interesting.

And I understand the words they are saying in those first two links, it's just all still very confusing to me. I know we've had this discussion before about oneness vs. trinity. Maybe it's difficult for me because I don't believe either one. In some respects they sound the same. In other respects each sounds more like my beliefs. Yet none of the three match up. Then there are the many, many different ways I've heard the trinity explained. I think that regardless of the doctrine of their denomination, many people really do have different understandings and beliefs about what the trinity means. I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs. I'm just sayin' that thinking about it sometimes makes me a little dizzy:willy_nilly:


I have not followed the debates on the boards about oneness vs the trinity :001_smile: In fact I am not sure I could debate the two what I know is that I do not believe that oneness is the absolute truth. I do not believe that you must be baptized in Jesus name and speak in tongues to be saved. My head spins with some of this stuff too :willy_nilly: :iagree:

I left because I could not buy into the idea that folks who had accepted Jesus as their savior, prayed and read their Bibles, had a personal relationship with Christ were still unsaved because they had not been baptized in Jesus name and did not speak in tongues. Those two ideas, baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongues are tied tightly into oneness theology.

Does that help? I just found it all to be too legalistic one verse Acts 2:38 being held as a dogma and other salvation passages being passed over :001_huh:

Anyway I don't wan't to turn this thread in to a debate :glare: just posting mostly my story and experience with churches where women had to have long hair.

Blessings

[Karin]

I have not followed the debates on the boards about oneness vs the trinity :001_smile: In fact I am not sure I could debate the two what I know is that I do not believe that oneness is the absolute truth. I do not believe that you must be baptized in Jesus name and speak in tongues to be saved.
Blessings

I didn't think this was turning into a debate:), nor do I want to debate! I only asked because I'm interested in knowing what different people teach. I don't think PrairieAir is debating, from what I know of her. She and I discovered via email one time that we think very much alike in the subject of who Jesus is, but since I grew up in a very traditional trinitarian church, I understand the differences in doctrines of oneness vs the traditional trinity teaching. As I recall she didn't grow up with that background (but correct me if I'm wrong;)) I'd never even heard this doctrine of oneness before.

[RebeccaC]

I didn't think this was turning into a debate:), nor do I want to debate! I only asked because I'm interested in knowing what different people teach. I don't think PrairieAir is debating, from what I know of her. She and I discovered via email one time that we think very much alike in the subject of who Jesus is, but since I grew up in a very traditional trinitarian church, I understand the differences in doctrines of oneness vs the traditional trinity teaching. As I recall she didn't grow up with that background (but correct me if I'm wrong;)) I'd never even heard this doctrine of oneness before.

Karin,

I was just wrote what I did about debate to try and not come off as .... how to write this.... debating :001_huh: Some times on boards with out the input of vocal intonations and body languages posts can be taken as debating when they are not and subjects like this can be tricky egg shell typing :blush: does that make sense. I was trying to state where I was coming from just wanting to converse but not to be taken as debating.

Some times I wish I had never heard of the oneness doctrine :001_smile: :w00t: I think that asking is great and a nice way to learn and I had no problem I just hoped that I did not come off as slamming what others on these boards might believe. I had a great time asking Peek questions about pacifist beliefs something I had never really looked in to. So I understand the asking and learning thro posting :iagree:

All that said I am not sure if I can clearly write what oneness is and is not. Which is why I posted web sites. Anyway if ya have any other questions I'll try and answer as best I can.