Anyone's child at a Waldorf/Steiner school?

[nd293]

Any specific comments about the education in general, and how it meshes with WTM afterschooling in particular?

We are looking at switching from homeschooling to private schooling - I just can't get dd8 to work at home, and am getting more and more resentful about having to be "on her case" all the time.

[homeschoolally]

you might find that this approach is a great fit or a conflict. I was very interested in this concept (love the educational philosophy) and considered relocating for a school until I did a little research on the background. Google waldorf/steiner/Anthroposophy
and check it out. You may find there isn't a conflict for you at all, but for our family there were some issues that we found troubling. I think the issue lies in the founders and their original intent--not necessarily with current schools--
hope you find the answers you're looking for!

[Carol in Cal.]

...from thoroughly investigating a local Waldorf school and from the experiences of several friends...

The history and literature courses of study are fabulous. Art is unparallelled, especially painting and color work. Natural materials are used all the time, and beauty is always emphasized. There is an emphasis on establishing a routine and the expectation that this will gently lead the children into a tightknit group--it does work, pretty much!

The local one used to ask that parents commit to their children not using computers or having any other screentime. Then they switched to 'except on weekends'. The parents that I knew whose kids attended there intended to lie about following this; they never even considered following through on the commitment.

I'm not so sure about the math. It seems like they emphasize group work a little more than I am comfortable with.

Science I am not so sure about.

Music is good--singing and using pentatonic harps and also recorders are the mainstays of the program. Those are mellow, harmonious introductions to music--wonderful for children.

Writing/composition is enriched by a superb literature-rich environment, and by the children making and illustrating beautiful books from the start. Teachers are story-tellers as well as readers-aloud, which is great modelling. It is not clear to me whether the children are actively taught spelling or grammar at all. There is quite a bit of copywork, and form drawing is used to help kids learn to control their penmanship.

I love the idea that one teacher has the children for 8 years. I know that people worry about that, in case the teacher dislikes a child or something, but what I have seen is that teachers who know that they are not going to be able to get rid of a child at the end of the school year often try harder to reach and appreciate them. I think that having the same teacher for a long time would be a great fit for most kids--like having an allomother or a longterm mentor.

I would be uncomfortable with the philosophical/magical 'bent' that I found there. It has some occult-ish ties, and at the school that I looked at seemed to be both pervasive and semi-secret. As a Lutheran I am very sensitive to this kind of thing, and it was pretty much a deal breaker for me.

If I were after schooling a Waldorf child, it would have been in religion, math, and probably formal music lessons.

[In The Great White North]

The history and literature courses of study are fabulous. Art is unparallelled, especially painting and color work. Natural materials are used all the time, and beauty is always emphasized. There is an emphasis on establishing a routine and the expectation that this will gently lead the children into a tightknit group--it does work, pretty much!

This is pretty universal for all Waldorf schools. Once major difference between Waldorf and WTM is that Waldorf is on one eight year cycle (starting history with fables and progressing up to all of modern history in 8th grade), instead of four year cycles.

The local one used to ask that parents commit to their children not using computers or having any other screentime. Then they switched to 'except on weekends'. The parents that I knew whose kids attended there intended to lie about following this; they never even considered following through on the commitment.

This is also pretty universal and I'm surprised they went to "except on weekends." No screen time is really nice for the younger grades. You don't have to deal with first graders coming in bragging about the latest PG or R movie (that you have no intention of letting your dc watch), nor are whole class periods wasted discussing some sitcom or evening news brief.

Math in the younger grades is very oral and kinetic, and done as a whole class activity with minimal writing. They know their times tables before they have to write them down. As they get older, it gets more individual and more of it is written down. They don't use textbooks til algebra. They never had the 70-100 problems for homework that some of ds's friends in ps had.

Science was fairly normal, but also very activity based. They watched or did the activity ("lab") and then learned about what they had observed, starting with gardening and working up to middle school chemistry and physics. They had more science equipment than I remembered from middle school.

Music is good--singing and using pentatonic harps and also recorders are the mainstays of the program. Those are mellow, harmonious introductions to music--wonderful for children.

Recorders start in first grade and go through 8th. They also start violin in 3rd grade and expect the child to have private lessons outside of school.

Writing/composition is enriched by a superb literature-rich environment, and by the children making and illustrating beautiful books from the start. Teachers are story-tellers as well as readers-aloud, which is great modelling. It is not clear to me whether the children are actively taught spelling or grammar at all. There is quite a bit of copywork, and form drawing is used to help kids learn to control their penmanship.

:iagree: Spelling and grammar usually happen in Main Lesson, although for a time our school had an English teacher for 6th, 7th and 8th. They start with copywork (first words, then sentences, then paragraphs) and gradually shift to writing their own essays (based on the teacher's lectures) in middle school.

The plan is great but very dependent upon the class teacher. If your class teacher is Mary Poppins with a graduate degree or two, it will be all it's chalked up to be and more. The concern that a particular child may not mesh well with a particular teacher is real and does happen.

I would be uncomfortable with the philosophical/magical 'bent' that I found there. It has some occult-ish ties, and at the school that I looked at seemed to be both pervasive and semi-secret. As a Lutheran I am very sensitive to this kind of thing, and it was pretty much a deal breaker for me.

Steiner was an anthroposophist and did base the school on that. The degree to which this is noticeable in a given school varies widely. You do not have to believe in anthroposophy to benefit from the Waldorf education. I had no problem pointing out to dc what did or did not mesh with our faith, something I would have had to do at any school. The underlying philosophy is agreed to by even fewer parents than the TV issue.

They also start two foreign languages in first grade (usually but not always French and German). These start with songs and rhymes (all oral) for the first 3 or 4 years and finish 8th grade ready for French 2 or German 2.

For afterschooling, I would try to figure out what the class teacher's strong points and weak points were and augment the weak points.

If you are switching because you can't get her to work, it could be a very good fit. It is much better for kinetic, whole-to-parts learners than traditional schooling.

[Katrina J]

Thanks for all the input. It wasn't my question but very interesting to read about as Steiner schools are increasingly popular here.

My friend has a son in a Steiner school and she said they don't start learning to read until the children are seven or eight years old. Her son is seven and a half and last I heard he was just starting to learn capital letters. For children who find learning to read difficult, does the later start help or hinder their progress?

Also, the schools here also attract a lot of families who object to immunising their children, and my friend said they have break-outs of communicable diseases like measles and whooping cough from time to time. Is this common?

[Laura Corin]

I seem to remember unusual scientific teaching in Steiner schools when I was researching, so you might want to look into that.

Laura

[In The Great White North]

My friend has a son in a Steiner school and she said they don't start learning to read until the children are seven or eight years old. Her son is seven and a half and last I heard he was just starting to learn capital letters. For children who find learning to read difficult, does the later start help or hinder their progress?


They start first grade later than usual and don't introduce letters in kindergarten. Fewer children (without disabilities) at that age find learning to read difficult. The problem is that the child with a learning disability is not diagnosed at school as early, so you, as the parent, have to pay more attention to the subtle hints. The schools are private so they usually do not provide the special ed services common in the ps (so if you do have a gut feeling about your dc, you have to get him tested somewhere else.)

Also, the schools here also attract a lot of families who object to immunising their children, and my friend said they have break-outs of communicable diseases like measles and whooping cough from time to time. Is this common?

They attract families here who don't immunize also but I've only seen whooping cough once (out of four different Waldorf schools) and measles never. FWIW, I've heard of whooping cough in the city more than at the Waldorf school, because apparently the vaccine wears off.

I seem to remember unusual scientific teaching in Steiner schools when I was researching, so you might want to look into that.


The most unusual thing I remember from their science was that they talked about colors more artistically (ie. what feeling does blue give? - more like something you hear from artists or home decorators) than scientifically (ie. wavelengths - which I didn't learn in grade school either) They certainly did normal geography, geology, chemistry, physics, anatomy and astronomy at the middle school level. They did not use textbooks, but rather watched or did an experiment then discussed what could be learned from that experiment and wrote about it in their books.

[Katrina J]

Thanks - I feel like I learnt something today. :)

Katrina

[nd293]

Thanks so much for all the really, really useful information on Steiner.

I have now received a prospectus from the school, with a very detailed questionaire, which has me wondering if we will fit in at all. Bedtimes? Chaotic, irregular and late here. Immunization? Yes. Relationships with extended family? Well, we were expats for 5 years, then immigrated 6 months ago to a country where we knew 2 people (only 1 in our city). TV? Children confirmed addicts, although this was certainly not the goal. And so it goes on.

I am going to go to their open day later this month, and take it from there.

In terms of the WTM afterschooling aspect, I think I would have to focus on academic writing, Maths and History. That would be do-able, I think. I'd start with outlining skills, Life of Fred (in a year or so, she is finishing Gr3) and continue on SOTW history rotation with a focus on fiction and biography. Dd will have a fit if she has traditional school and "traditional" homeschooling.

A final question: What sort of personality fits in well in a Steiner school? Dd is very strong-willed and opinionated. She is outgoing, and gets on well with other kids, but conflict can develop because she wants things done her way. She likes things to be done the "right way" and gets stressed if other people don't follow directions. Would she cope in a Steiner school? Would they welcome the role of encouraging her to be quieter and more open to other people's views, or would it simply be a "bad fit" situation. I gather "fitting in" would be quite important in the Steiner environment?

Thanks again for all your help.

Nikki

[In The Great White North]

I have now received a prospectus from the school, with a very detailed questionaire, which has me wondering if we will fit in at all. Bedtimes? Chaotic, irregular and late here. Immunization? Yes. Relationships with extended family? Well, we were expats for 5 years, then immigrated 6 months ago to a country where we knew 2 people (only 1 in our city). TV? Children confirmed addicts, although this was certainly not the goal. And so it goes on.


Bedtime and TV are the only real concerns on your list. Both contribute to calm, happy children in the classroom. If dc 's irregular bedtime results in her being cranky and the TV time results in sassy one-liners, they'll probably have a problem with it. OTO, a regular bedtime and no TV could help with your original problem of:

" I just can't get dd8 to work at home, and am getting more and more resentful about having to be "on her case" all the time."

They will certainly encourage it, as well as limiting sugar and other refined foods that frequently cause children to have less impulse control.

A final question: What sort of personality fits in well in a Steiner school? Dd is very strong-willed and opinionated. She is outgoing, and gets on well with other kids, but conflict can develop because she wants things done her way. She likes things to be done the "right way" and gets stressed if other people don't follow directions. Would she cope in a Steiner school? Would they welcome the role of encouraging her to be quieter and more open to other people's views, or would it simply be a "bad fit" situation. I gather "fitting in" would be quite important in the Steiner environment?


I have seen all sorts of personalities there. I don't think it only fits a particular personality type. The teacher-child mis-fit issues were not predictable based on the child's personality or temperament. I would expect them to welcome the role of encouraging her to be quieter and more open to people's views, but that doesn't guarantee success, especially if you are not willing to support it at home (ie. TV and bedtimes)

If you have to do that much after-schooling, there's no point in paying tuition. The class teacher will likely be good with either math or writing. If you have to do both at home, you're not saving yourself any hassle at all. I don't think I'd recommend doing the four year rotation of history while they are in a Steiner school. Each year focuses on a specific period in history. They try to coordinate their history, reading, artwork and play to this period. After-schooling a different period would ruin the effect of "living" the period they are studying in school.

[nd293]

Thanks for the added information. Yes, I have to agree, Steiner is probably not a good fit with the family, even though it would suite dd in many ways. TV is a real problem for us, and is a bad habit we slipped into when the family was under stress with an international move. Bedtimes were regular when dd had the regular schedule of waking for school, but flexible rising times is one of the many benefits of full-time homeschooling.

The Maths described in the Steiner prospectus sounds limited, but it might be in the desciption rather than the execution.

Thanks again.

[In The Great White North]

The Maths described in the Steiner prospectus sounds limited, but it might be in the desciption rather than the execution.

The way to find out is to ask them which high school math course their grads take.

[LibraryLover]

I did do a parent/child class with my toddlers and that was relaxing and lovely. It was a high point in our week at that time. I didn't trust them beyond that, however, given my experience at the open house.

[forevergrace]

For some articles on Waldorf Education, see http://redirectingat.com/?id=848X156205&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.waldorfanswers.org%2FWArticle s.htm (http://redirectingat.com/?id=848X156205&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.waldorfanswers.org%2FWArticle s.htm) and http://www.americans4waldorf.org/Articles.html (http://www.americans4waldorf.org/Articles.html)

We tried Waldorf, but, found we needed more.
Forevergrace

[nd293]

We're in a new country, so I don't have much to judge the quality of education by, unfortunately.

LaurieNE - what were your experiences at the open house?

forevergrace - I am a little concerned about the "needing more" myself. That is what is holding me back.

[LibraryLover]

We're in a new country, so I don't have much to judge the quality of education by, unfortunately.

LaurieNE - what were your experiences at the open house?

forevergrace - I am a little concerned about the "needing more" myself. That is what is holding me back.


They told us our four year old could read because we hadn't exposed him to enough to non -academic pursuits. We didn't even realize how well our dc could read right away, didn't watch TV, and had a house full of expensive Stockmar art supplies, silks, and wooden animals. They thought we pushed him, and they didn't even know us! We were turned off.

[forevergrace]

Hi Laurie,
I didn't mind their ideas on not watching T.V., dd watches maybe thirty-minutes, every other night. I really enjoyed dd playing the recorder, we ordered it along w/all other supplies through the proper channels. It does get a bit expensive. But the sound of dd playing the recorder was absolutely beautiful.

I was worried about the educational process. Being from a family that has strict ideas of learning, it was really hard to believe that children just pick up on reading. I did have one teacher tell me it was normal for children to start reading once they lost their eye-teeth.

Steiner philosophies are really extreme, radical in some ways, and at some points hard to follow. I'm talking about some of his original thoughts. I had the feeling that it was almost cult like. However, I know of several families that love Waldorf, and it has proven beneficial for their children. I on the other hand, question (to be fair, I question everything) any type of group that assumes it is the best, or their way is the only way. I tend to run, and run fast.

I also loved the diet that they suggest. No artificial colourings, little sugar, and mostly organic. Something we have been doing for years, and for personal reasons. I loved packing dd's lunches, and loved the fact they had a garden and believed in imagination, playing outside etc. However, dd needs structure and guidance. Left to her own device she'd be in the water, outside all day. (something I just love about my daughter)

Listen to your gut, I knew it wasn't going to work for us. I had been through several public schools that couldn't figure exactly why dd wasn't learning, and I knew something was wrong w/dd's ability to process info. At that point we were at the end of our rope, and just wanted something to work. Waldorf served a purpose for us. It was dd's transitional period, and gave us all a little break until the next door opened.

I was also in the process of graduating and doing an internship, w/a promise of a fantastic job at the end of the internship along w/a great salary. I was playing w/the idea of going to law school the following year. School, job, all the extras, will always be accessible. Dd won't and she is my biggest and most important gift. I know you understand how I feel, I can hear it in your post.

Trust yourself, listen to the little nagging voice in your head, and the bigger one in your heart. Waldorf works for some, but, not for all. It demands an open mind, read everything you can about it.
Thinking of you,
Forevergrace

[forevergrace]

Just wanted to add: that during stressful times the use of t.v. or video games is sometimes very much needed. Sometimes one more thing can be too much for a little child to think about, or for that matter even us big adults. Don't beat yourself up over it.
Forevergrace

[nd293]

Laurie - It's odd, the resistance to reading in some quarters. Dd went to a fantastic IB school for a while, and they didn't "push" the children. In theory, that's great, but what it meant was a resistance to supporting children who were comfortable with tasks such as reading. Dd was reading when she started there, but they did nothing to encourage her. I moved forward with her reading, but felt I had to hide it from the teachers.

Foreevergrace - Thanks for the kind and supportive words. I find Steiner's philosophy odd, but figured that was something one could just work around (accept the positive without buying in to it). I think I recognise the "end of the rope" feeling. I just know something is not working in our homeschooling, and guess I am desperately grasping at straws for some alternative that will make us all happy. Dd does not seem happy at home (or in general?), but says she does not want to go to school. I will visit the open day at the school, but think that ultimately, we just have to keep at the homeschooling for now, and perhaps turn attention to other areas of life that need work. That's the harder part, and perhaps why I am looking towards school - an outside, rather than internal solution?

[In The Great White North]

Resistance to reading is unusual even for a Steiner school. They don't introduce letters or reading til 1st grade but I never heard anyone say to stop your child from reading (like they do with TV) That's just another example of how important your child's teacher is. There were several children in my dc's classes who could read before 1st grade and they just had a separate reading group. They did still do the phonics, handwriting and copywork, which helps other language arts skills besides reading.

Steiner schools do not emphasize reading like traditional schools because all the other learning does not depend on being able to read (no texts, no worksheets, no directions to read, etc.) Math, history, science, foreign languages, etc are taught orally, not from a book, so not reading doesn't hold a child back in any other subject. Many children think they are playing all day and don't realize that they are learning.

However, if you feel your child is ahead of grade level, they don't accelerate.

[forevergrace]

Hey Nikki (nd293),

Some of the same behaviour you are having w/ your daughter is exactly what we have went thought w/our daughter. Our story is long, but, after Waldorf I put dd in a school for the gifted w/dual diagnoses. This was only after a friend that I really respect suggested it. She is also one of the most court used child play therapists in Arizona.

This school, caused us to go in debt, (LOL) However, we learned dd was dyslexic. Yet, her I.Q. was well beyond average. This was something I always felt. Not for the fact of intelligence, but due to the fact of dd's kind, empathetic, and forgiving nature. I always felt that she was exceptional at art and music. Yet, being her momma I chalked it up to just my own momma feelings.

I was totally unprepared for what this school told me. I mean here I had fought w/everyone for several years about dd. I didn't believe she needed to be medicated, which sadly is exactly what ps wanted. I didn't believe she was having seizures. I watched dd go from the most loving, happy, singing little girl, to (only way I can explain it) having her very soul sucked out of her. I mean, it was like watching a little flower die.

This happened in first grade. Dd use to cry at night, every night, and plead w/me not to make her go to school the next day. I literally was sick in the morning. I'd drive her to school and feel as if I were leaving her off in a war-zone. I was the mom volunteering during lunch recesses, so I could keep an eye on dd and the other children. I was the mom who would arrive at school fifteen-twenty minutes early (before classes were done) just so I could peek in the window's of dd's class. I wanted to figure it out, find out what the problem was w/dd. Find out how she was disrespecting the teacher in first grade (biggest complaint of her teacher).

We are a family that respect others, elders, etc. I have raised both of my girls to behave properly, and treat others as they would want to be treated. I can honestly say that both of my daughters are caring, compassionate individuals (they still have their problems). However, dd just stop talking, relating w/the children. She wouldn't raise her hand, answer questions, she shut-down became introverted. Believe me, hell has nothing on a mom that watches her child suffer.

The clincher was; (just think--dd was only six-years-old at the time) I was driving her home from school. She proceeded to tell me in her most serious voice, that one day she wanted to be a teacher. Reason why; she never wanted another child to feel as dumb as she felt. She told me her brain didn't work right. I had to pull over. I was looking at the most beautiful little girl, who use to be so happy, telling me her most heartbreaking feelings.

When we found out the truth, that dd was in fact way beyond her peers, I felt like doing a jig on her teacher's head. I felt like running in the Principal's office (of ps) and kicking his fat arse. Dd maybe compassionate, I on the other hand have a lot to learn from her.

I don't know if you have had your daughter tested, but please consider it. I know this is long, I hope it helps.
Always,
Forevergrace