Would it be better to switch from RS math to BJU math after RS C or D?

[HappyGrace]

We've loved RS A and B, now into C. However, we also supplement CLE wkbk pages for the spiral review dd absolutely needs, and do word problem books too. I just want it all in one place! (Plus I don't want to be teaching TWO levels of RS when ds starts in with it.) So I want to switch dd over to BJU, but I want to be sure I get all the "good parts" of RS first. I personally don't like the looks of or reviews of E, so that's out. So switch to BJU 3 after RS C, or will I be really missing some nice conceptual stuff in RS D? Thanks!!

[OhElizabeth]

Well here's my two cents. As long as what you're doing is working and not driving you crazy, continue it. Is she enjoying RS, then stick with it. Is the math combo you're doing working and keeping her happy? Then continue. Sometimes you can change things trying to make life better for yourself and only make it worse. I like D and the way it presents both multi-digit multiplication and division. My personal feeling is to continue into D unless it's not working for HER. When I changed, it wasn't my convenience driving the change; it was that math was no longer working for dd.

If you do change to BJU or something else straight, you'd want to get the Activities for the ALAbacus book so you could present those topics the RS way. But like I said, if RS is still working, I'd stay put. It sounds like it's working for you, so I don't see a problem. And personally, I think there's good stuff in RS E too, hehe. I own it and plan to look at it occasionally to pull tidbits, have her do the oral warm-ups, etc.

I guess that's a non-committal answer, oh well. It's just that changing isn't fun and isn't all it's cracked up to be. I wouldn't change until you have to. Suck all the good you can out of what is currently working. When it no longer works, then change. That's my two cents.

[OhElizabeth]

BTW, I'm going to do a little mind-reading here, and you can call me crazy, ignore, say it doesn't apply, whatever. Your dd is very bright but there's a difference between your expectation and her grade level and the level of RS, isn't there? I'm just going to toss out there for your consideration that RS may be working precisely because of what it is. Some kids learn math well (or spelling or whatever) with ANY curriculum, and some kids don't. I think sometimes we don't realize why something is working for us. It could be that RS is exactly what she needs for math to click in her brain, even if it isn't going as fast as the age to grade to math level ratios make you expect. And if you mess with that and change things, you could be messing up what's really working well for you right now, kwim?

So maybe that's in left field, but it's something to consider. Don't mess up what's working. Change when it's no longer working.

[partyof5]

I've been reading all the negative reviews of level E as well, and I haven't found the struggles to be true for us at all. My dd has worked very well through all the levels and we're finishing E this spring. I love the way RS presents things and I will really miss it when we're done!

I've been reading OhElizabeth's posts about RS for a couple years ago and I'm always here at home saying (to my computer screen mind you), "YES! That's what I love about RS!! What great advice!!" :D

All that said, I agree that there is no reason to abandon RS if it's working. A few reviews you read here (while valuable) shouldn't drive your decision completely. See if you can look at D & E, even the table of contents, to see what's covered. I am amazed at how my dd9 picks up the concepts and I wouldn't trade the RS teaching method for anything.

Also, I have a dd6 who is just starting this year with RS too. I thought it would be hard to have two levels of RS going simultaneously and honestly, it's been fine. I plan our day so that they can work on other subjects while I do math with the other one. It's worked well all year, and requires only minimal advance planning on my part to make it work.

Hope that helps!

[HappyGrace]

I just want to have ONE math that I'm using instead of three! I have to admit that it's not TOO bad because she does the CLE independently and the word problem books too so far. The other thing is the RS is just more teacher-intensive than I want to deal with for much longer, especially adding on student number two in RS this fall. (Although I plan to have the older play the games with the younger, so that will help!) Also, if I'm going to switch, I'm thinking it may be better to switch earlier rather than later so I don't have to go back a level to have her catch topics she may have missed or get used to the new way of teaching. I'm pretty sure I could have her go seamlessly into BJU3 after C. And I'm not so sure that will happen if I wait until after D.

Plus on the student side of things, she's starting to want to be more independent with things- "just give me the basics and let me do the rest myself." She isn't loving all the chattiness of RS as much anymore. She's definitely not balking though, so we could probably make it through D.

I did have a moment a few weeks back when I worried about levels, but I put that totally to the side after I looked at some scope and sequences of RS side by side with some other math programs and was impressed with what RS covers. I'm really happy that I slowed her WAY down in B when she needed it, even though now halfway through 2nd grade she's only on lesson 20 in C. She needed that maturity spurt, and now she's in a much better place for getting the concepts as we encounter them. It helped my confidence as a teacher to see that I was able to diagnose the problem and find the solution (stretching out B over 1 1/2 yrs instead of 1.)

So there's a couple different things going on as to "why" I want to switch. Just wanting to make sure I get the "when" right, after C or D, so I get the most out of our run with RS.

[HappyGrace]

I have looked extensively at the table of contents for D and E from the website to try to figure this out better. I'm finding it a bit hard to judge from just the TOC, because I want to be fair-I know if I just looked at the TOC for level C, I might not have gotten it, but looking ahead in it, I love the way they're presenting things in the lessons!

Like I said above (we must have been cross-posting since it took me so long to write that post due to interruptions here!), I have to add a bunch to RS to make things stick for dd, and I'd kind of like it all in one place!

It is good to know that it's not too bad doing RS with two levels of children-thank you! We barely get everything done in a day now and I was kind of freaked out thinking of adding in another RS lesson! :ack2:

[Johanna]

We went from RS C (kinda 3/4 through it) to BJU 3rd. I just could not take the teacher intensity of it any longer. I was a bit annoyed at the way they taught subtraction with regrouping( i am more traditional). BJU was a great transition because they are conceptual like RS. It was just the right move because her learning style had changed (not needing so much teacher interaction, and manips...she likes the visual pics on the bju wb pages) and my teaching style changed with needing to be available for all my other dc and not having as much teaching time.
It was a good move for us. But, i would have never changed giving her the RS foundation as it was perfect for her "conceptual" mind!
Good luck...i know these decisions are hard!:iagree:

[partyof5]

I just read your last post as well and I do have to commend you for slowing down the pace of RS when you recognized the need to do this! I got caught up in the pace and the "grade/age" thing in level C and I wish I had slowed down. We came out on the other side in tact but my poor dd really pushed through a few things! Had I known that the RS scope went beyond other programs, I would have let up a little. Oh well! :D Hindsight...

Anyway, hope you find the right mix of things to work for you! We'll be moving to BJU for next year when we're done level E and I do look forward to a change, for change's sake.

BTW, I love the green smiley thing you used! I'll have to look for that one and then find a way to use it!

[OhElizabeth]

After D she would go into BJU4, no problem. Ironically, students completing RS E can go into BJU5 comfortably and even into BJU6.

The one thing that bugs me about BJU, now that I've told you good things in so many other posts, is the way it parcels out concepts, building them slowly. Some kids benefit from that but for my dd it's confusing. RS takes you all the way to the point (4 digit addition, 4 digit subtraction, etc.) right from the start, jumping in with both feet. BJU is going to build it up slowly, doing it first with one digit, then two, then three, then four... That might be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the dc.

You know, the best way to decide on this is to order some stuff and try it for a week or two. Don't try it for a long time and then be jumping back and forth. Pick a reasonable trial, say 2 weeks, and just see what happens. I understand what your dd is saying about wanting to do it more independently. Mine does too. With CLE, the instruction is all right there in the student text. With BJU, it's still intended to be taught. If I leave too much to my dd alone, I don't get as good a result. I try to teach the first side to her, working the problems together, then leave her to do the back side of the page by herself. Obviously she can do Reviews by herself. So it's still not going to be totally independent. I started printing daily checklists for my dd's assignments a week or two ago, and she really likes that. You might be able to give her other ways to be independent without losing your instruction time with her in math.

If you do decide to change over, I'd suggest getting the Activities for the ALAbacus book so you can use it as you present things. It's going to have the same content on how to explain division, etc. I'd definitely recommend sticking through C at least till she has nailed 4 digit subtraction. I think the way they teach that is AWESOME and I LOVE the way my dd handles subtraction. With multiplication, I think you could get good results with BJU or RS, but the RS subtraction is really unique.

Have you looked at the online samples of Reviews to see if it contains enough spiral review to meet your dd's needs? It has a two-sided page for each day, where one side is fact drill and the other review material. It's some, but not as much as a CLE lesson.

[HappyGrace]

reasons I'm going to a hotel meeting put on by BJU locally in May. I want to make sure the presentation of concepts works in a way that will be good for dd. I've gotten used to the way RS jumps in with both feet, but sometimes I think that has held us back too-maybe she could have handled certain topics sooner and more confidently if they were presented in a ground-up, gradually building type of way.

I also want to be sure the Reviews has enough spiral; one page of actual spiral has kind of thrown a red flag for me (compared to CLE.) My biggest worry with BJU is that it will be too much mastery/not enough spiral for us. Can you link me to a sample of the Reviews book, please-I haven't been able to find any.

I'm still planning on teaching her the math lesson-it's partly why I want to go with BJU rather than CLE-more teacher helps. CLE doesn't have enough hand-holding for me as the teacher in presenting new concepts. I think BJU looks like a nice compromise between CLE and RS-not too independent, not too teacher-intensive.

My tentative plan is this: Finish RS C with CLE by end of the summer/early fall. I'll finish CLE 1 before summer, so I'll have her do the BJU 2 worktext as her review, rather than CLE, during summer (as we're finishing RS C.) That way I can see how she likes the BJU workbooks, even though it'll mainly be review. Meanwhile, I'll ck out BJU at the meeting. If it looks really good, we may start BJU 3 after C. However, if RS C goes really, really well and is really clicking with her, we'll stick with RS through D and then jump to BJU4. (I can even have her do the BJU 3 worktext as review next summer if that works out well this year with BJU 2.) Either way, I'll definitely get the ALabacus book.

Another question: I think I've read a couple places that BJU doesn't have worktexts starting in 5th, that they have to write it out. But I see worktexts on the bju site. What's up with that?

[Pensguys]

Another question: I think I've read a couple places that BJU doesn't have worktexts starting in 5th, that they have to write it out. But I see worktexts on the bju site. What's up with that?

Do you mean workbooks starting in 5th? I'm not sure what you're calling worktexts for the 5th grade on their site, but there is a TEXT which is what the student uses to write out their problems (not a workbook) BUT there are supplemental activity books (which are workbooks). These are to be used AFTER the lesson in the text is done.

[HappyGrace]

It looks from the sample like they just write right in it like they previously did with the worktexts, am I right? Or is the student text not a type of workbook? (I do know about the supplemental workbooks-Stretch, etc.) Is it a hardback text like Saxon where they copy the problems onto a separate piece of paper to solve?

[Pensguys]

There is a soft text which is the same as the Student text but with a paper cover...no workbook. We're using the hardback text. 5th grade starts no worktexts.

[HappyGrace]

:confused: Do I have this right:

1.Up until and including 4th grade, they do all their work in the worktext, unless they do the extra workbooks (Spring, Stretch, etc.)

2. This is where I get screwed up, about what starts in 5th grade. Is this right: They use one thing, a hardback text, which they copy the problems out of onto paper to work them. There are the extra optional workbooks (Stretch, etc.) available too.

I'm so sorry to beat a dead horse, but I just want to make sure I have this straight. I'm going to the BJU hotel meeting in May, but I'm looking for a certain type of format, and the answer to this may make me change my mind before then. (I'm deciding between BJU and CLE after RS, so format makes a big difference.) Thank you so much for your patience!!

[Pensguys]

Yes, that's right. You can see it on their site....the 4th grade has a workbook still instead of a text; 5th grade only has a hard back text (unless you want to buy the soft back text) and they have to copy the problems.

This (http://www.bjupress.com/nav/product/078253?path=5636&samplePage=) is the 1994 2nd edition worktext.

This (http://www.bjupress.com/nav/product/256180?path=5636) is the updated copywrite for 2008 2nd edition worktext. It says "Copywrite Update" so I guess they have to do that even though they don't change anything. If they changed anything, then it would be the 3rd edition.

[HappyGrace]

was that to me when I look at the Grade 5 student text, which I now understand from you is a hardcover text, it looks like if they wanted, they could write right in it. Here's the link-look inside at the sample chapter and you'll see what I mean-they leave spaces that it looks like they could write in the answers there.

http://www.bjupress.com/nav/product/082875?path=1748

See what I mean?

[Pensguys]

was that to me when I look at the Grade 5 student text, which I now understand from you is a hardcover text, it looks like if they wanted, they could write right in it. Here's the link-look inside at the sample chapter and you'll see what I mean-they leave spaces that it looks like they could write in the answers there.

http://www.bjupress.com/nav/product/082875?path=1748

See what I mean?

I see what you mean. That is the exact book we had for the beginning of the year, but went with BJU6 instead. Some pages there is enough room to write, but mostly, there is not enough room.....

[HappyGrace]

From the sample it was really looking like more of a workbook that you could write in. At least I know now that it is strictly a text and they write the problems on paper-that helps greatly to know that. At least it doesn't look like a million problems to write like Saxon. It doesn't look so bad. I like that it's still colorful. I'll still go to the hotel mtg and ck it out in person. Thank you so much for your patience with me in clearing me up on that!

[Pensguys]

Yeah, I see, I think. I didn't think there was enough room so it never occurred to me. (but that's me).

The lessons vary from 18-25 problems (give or take). Depending on how much work you think your child needs would depend on if you want to use the optional workbooks. My ds has needed more work with some concepts and I like the reviews books. Lately, ds has been getting all the problems right in his text so I've skipped the spring book. If he struggles with the problems, then I know he needs more practice and I assign Spring.

[HappyGrace]

and they apparently have some extra spiral review right in the book, PLUS a CD that comes with the TM that you can print off pages similar to what the additional wkbks have. So that will help a lot. I thank you again for all your help with this!

[TracyR]

All I can say is if Rod and Staff works well for her then stick with it . Why fix something that isn't broke ? It maybe the perfect way she understands math .
As for placing her in the BJU math they do have placement tests and I would go with that . I'm not sure how accurate they are because they are fairly new to BJU . But I would do that to find exactly where she needs to be .

BJU math is hard text starting in 5th grade . Grades K-4th are workbook text .

[Pensguys]

and they apparently have some extra spiral review right in the book, PLUS a CD that comes with the TM that you can print off pages similar to what the additional wkbks have. So that will help a lot. I thank you again for all your help with this!

OH! I didn't know they had updated the 5th grade ones (or are going to). I knew 3rd grade would be updated and ready by this summer.

[HappyGrace]

1st and 2nd are already done, and that's what I was commenting on, assuming that 3rd grade will have the CD too. BJU won't even commit to saying when any 3rd editions beyond 3rd grade are coming out. :glare:

[Pensguys]

I guess I thought since we were talking about the 5th grade book that you meant there was going to be a new edition of 5th soon......:confused:

[KIN]

I agree partyof5. We are in C and loving it. I have a close friend who is on Level E this year and said the same thing about the negative press RightStart's later levels are getting. She has loved, loved, loved the way RightStart presents long division, place value, fractions and more. She said the it continues to be the same great program all the way through E. I think, too, that you need to do what is right for your child and not let what a few vocal persons are saying sway you. I love to read what everyone writes and what they are doing with their children. I like to look for pitfalls others have found, but I don't jump ship on what is working for us. FWIW, I have 2 students doing levels A and C this year. It hasn't been hard in the least, we just switch which boy I do math with and the other does independent work. I think you are right to look ahead and be thinking, but if a program is working don't switch b/c of what others are doing.

[HappyGrace]

Although I love the conceptual presentation, I've had a few issues all along with RS, which I've enumerated before on this board. And it seems like the things I liked least occur more in the later levels! The main thing is that since dd needs more spiral and loves word problems, I've had to add in CLE for the spiral and Daily Word Problems for that (which has worked beautifully), so I'm basically doing three programs and I'd really like to consolidate. So when I say I'm nervous about adding in another child doing RS, you can see why!

I really appreciate you chiming in. BTW, have you decided-are you jumping right into RS B with your younger, or waiting till fall? If you're waiting till fall, what did you decide to do in the meantime? I remember you were trying to decide this on another thread and I was interested to see what you'd decide since my ds will be in the same boat next spring.

[KIN]

I can totally understand wanting to use only one math curriculum at a time. :) I feel RightStart has been given a lot of bad press lately and I started to question myself in going on in RightStart. Then, I got a hold of myself and thought "Kathy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it." :) I wanted to be sure that others aren't being swayed by other's posts without knowing others are using and enjoying it.

For your question - (I'm feeling chatty tonight!) I decided to do the workbook someone suggested from the publishers of MindBenders (what is the name of it???). I started it last week and ds really enjoys it. However, I decided today I'm also going to go on in Level B. I think I'll just do a few lessons a week from B for now and the other days use the critical thinking math book. I just don't want ds to lose the start he has in math. Starting next fall I'll just pick up where we left off in B and continue on full speed. HTH a bit!! :)

[HappyGrace]

Don't you love it? I love how it does critical thinking with the math. It's perfect because it goes along with what RS is trying to do. Glad you like it! Unfortunately, we're using it now, and he won't be doing RS A until the fall, so we'll have to find something else to use to stretch out our time between RS A and B.

Gotta run! :leaving: