Wow -- I guess this makes me think twice about how I return grocery carts

[nestof3]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337012,00.html

When the boys are with me, I have them buckle up, then I load the groceries in, then I lock the door, then I return the cart to the corral, then I return to the car.

I guess I could now get arrested for doing so.

[Scarlett]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337012,00.html

When the boys are with me, I have them buckle up, then I load the groceries in, then I lock the door, then I return the cart to the corral, then I return to the car.

I guess I could now get arrested for doing so.


Sounds like she made the police mad.

Btw, I don't carts to the corral when my son is with me unless it is right next to me. I do however, take an empty one into the store as I go in to shop. I don't think what this mother did was neglectful. She just drew too much attention to herself by parking in a loading zone and turning on her flashers.

[Tracey in TX]

This is ridiculous. Much of parenting is common sense--and she clearly used it, but is somehow being used as a guinea pig to prove a point. Trials like this are a waste of time, tax payer money, and emotional strain for persons involved.

Texas has a 5 minute rule to allow children to be alone in car just for circumstances such as this.

[True Blue]

Mad police don't warrant someone being arrested. I think this is a ridiculous case.

[Scarlett]

Mad police don't warrant someone being arrested. I think this is a ridiculous case.

I agree. But it sounds like that is why they are going forward with a ridiculous case.

[Gigi]

Between this article and this one http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/12/skittles.suspension.ap/index.html I have decided that people no longer can use common sense. I feel like the media has hyped so many rare accidents/incidents people now are paranoid and act out of irrational fear.

[True Blue]

But this makes the police and prosecuters look really bad. Not a smart move.

[Scarlett]

But this makes the police and prosecuters look really bad. Not a smart move.


I agree. But I think their egos get in the way of common sense and PR sense.

[jail warden]

so therefore the government has to step in and make all sorts of laws for every.little.thing.

[LizzyBee]

That is just ridiculous. I hope the judge drops the charges!

[Frontier Mom]

I mean, how terrifying for the older children seeing their Mom arrested. This really makes me mad, don't they ever think about the "welfare" of the other children.

If this is a crime, I'm afraid I'm guilty on many counts. Mine are a little older now, but I would have probably done the same.

[GothicGyrl]

I'll play devil's advocate here..

Part of me wonders why she even went out in that kind of weather if it wasn't for an emergency or neccessity. Dropping change off to the Salvation Army--while commendable--was not neccessary, especially if one child had to be "left behind" (so to speak). I certainly would not have gone out in that weather if my thought process was "it's sleeting out but I can still take the kids, the sleeping one stays in the car". Nope.

The other part of me, while it does slightly agree with the bad side(grin), says that this officer was just looking for a fight, what she did was certainly not endangerment and if flippin' CPS dismissed the charges as "unfounded" why the hell can't the police?

She IS guilty of lack of common sense--I honestly do not believe any of you would take your children out in sleeting weather, knowing full well a child may possibly fall asleep and then pull, illegally, in to a lane you don't belong in, and then proceed to lock the child in the car. This was not a case of her "just dropping of the cart" -- we ALL do that. This was a case of her being parked illegally, for which she drew attention to by putting on her hazards and then proceeding to leave a child in a locked running car.

And while I am guilty of the last part as well--I certainly did not do it parked illegally or in sleeting weather.

So no, I don't believe any of you would have "done the same". I think most here have more common sense than that. But I also believe this cop was an asshat and deserves to well--nevermind.. ;)

[Colleen]

I absolutely can not abide this kind of nonsense wherein common sense is cast aside altogether. I feel so angry on behalf of this woman.

[Frontier Mom]

Otherwise, the police are going to look pretty uncool in front of a judge.

[Tammy]

I can only wish that every car that parks in the front of a store (usually called the FIRE LANE) would get towed....or ticketed!!!!! You don't know how many times this happens....I guess these people feel special or something.... As you can see....this is my biggest pet peeve when going to Publix!

[Colleen]

She IS guilty of lack of common sense

Nope, not in my book she isn't.

I don't believe any of you would have "done the same".

Well, you can believe otherwise now.:)

[Gigi]

She is from Illinois....People go out in it all the time to run errands. Seriously unless a blizzard was happening I never postponed errands when we lived in Chicago. N. Illinois has been going through a rough winter and if you waited for it to be warm and nice out you wouldn't be going anywhere. It isn't Florida. :-)

[Gigi]

Walmart has a pick up lane...it is not the fire lane.

[Tammy]

Colleen...can you tell me how to 'pick out certain quotes' from a post and paste it into your reply (as you did)....I don't know how to use that function yet, LOL!

[Tammy]

Oh....my Walmart doesn't.....sorry. She wasn't 'picking up', LOL!

[GothicGyrl]

Nope, not in my book she isn't.



Well, you can believe otherwise now.:)
No, I can't and won't Colleen. She lacked common sense by PARKING in a place she should not be PARKING in. That lane is used ONLY for pickup. NOT parking. And if she had to think "it's sleeting, child is asleep, lock doors"--then Yes, she should have used common sense enough to park in the right place and take child out OR not go until she could make a safer decision.

I did NOT say you shouldn't leave during Sleet. I drive during Hurricanes!!! But I've enough common sense to know that if I have to put my child at any kind of risk (parking illegally, locking doors and walking away)--they don't go with me or I don't go.

Sorry. I won't bend on this one and you won't make me. She lacked common sense in that area alone. And the cop needs a good (w)itch slapping.

[Gigi]

She lacked common sense by PARKING in a place she should not be PARKING in. That lane is used ONLY for pickup. NOT parking.

Then she should have received a parking ticket and not be arrested. A parking violation is very different then a child endangerment charge.

[GothicGyrl]

Then she should have received a parking ticket and not be arrested. A parking violation is very different then a child endangerment charge.
YES!! I absolutely do agree with this!! I was never advocating her arrest and I said as much.

[Colleen]

Colleen...can you tell me how to 'pick out certain quotes' from a post and paste it into your reply (as you did)....I don't know how to use that function yet, LOL!

A "quote" button appears on each post (when viewing the board in the hybrid mode, anyway). Click "quote" and the content of the post to which you're replying will come up in the message box. Just delete those portions you don't want to remain. The key is to make sure the word quote is in brackets right before the content you're quoting, and [/quote] is right after. Clear as mud?

[JuJuBee]

I have often weighed in my mind the danger of having 5 children under the age of 10 exit a vehicle and navigate through the traffic of a parking lot versus leaving them, buckled, in a locked car, and frankly I think they are safer in a locked car. I cannot have my hands on all 5 of them, because I have, well, two hands. I don't need a law telling me which risk is more acceptable to them. My 3 year old is a darter, and just today as my 13 year old got him out of the car, he ran around the car and to me before my 13 year old could grab him. Riskier than sitting in his seat which he can't get out of of? Heck, yeah.

[Tammy]

A "quote" button appears on each post (when viewing the board in the hybrid mode, anyway).

Did that one work (above)?



The key is to make sure the word quote is in brackets right before the content you're quoting, and is right after. Clear as mud?[/QUOTE]

So to get two in one post....do you just use the copy and paste feature from your keyboard? Because I don't see where you can keep going back and hitting quote and bringing in another quote.

[Tammy]

The 2nd one messed up....I wonder what I did wrong, LOL!

[Colleen]

We don't need to argue about whether or not she lacked common sense. You think she did, I think she didn't. We'll just agree to disagree on that score. But your belief that none of us would have done the same is wrong because I'm saying point blank I would've done the same (although I wouldn't have locked the car). I'm not trying to make you "bend"; I'm telling you your belief (that none of us would have done this) is wrong.

As far as why she went out, you said:

Part of me wonders why she even went out in that kind of weather if it wasn't for an emergency or neccessity. and

I've enough common sense to know that if I have to put my child at any kind of risk (parking illegally, locking doors and walking away)--they don't go with me or I don't go.

She didn't believe she was putting her child at a risk, that's why she went.

[JuJuBee]

Actually, the more I think about this the angrier I get. Are we to believe that her children are better off in foster care? That they are better off without their Mom for however-long she has to serve her 'sentence?' Ridiculous.

[GothicGyrl]

And then I suppose, while I DO NOT advocate her arrest, I would have to say Colleen, that you would have been punished for doing it, if you did it the way she did.

I mean while I have driven in hurricanes, I wouldn't take my kids out in one just to drop off a jug full of money and take pictures--I've no words for what that sounds like to me. And I have to say I AM surprised that at least two of you would have done something like this--under these same circumstances....

I AM NOT talking about putting your kid in the car and carseat, so you could safely load groceries--I would not be arguing if that was all it was.

For what she did, while I DO NOT feel her arrest was needed, she did lack common sense and just did not think.

[Gigi]

Sleet is NOT equal to a hurricane. It would just be like rain mixed with cold temps. People run errands out in the rain all of the time. If you can avoid taking your child out and not getting them wet...you do it. That is common sense. If she was going into the store then she would have gotten her kid out. I take my kids to the library but if it is snowing I will park and go to the drop box by myself and leave the kids in the car. Using the unloading/loading zone so she could unload donations seems fine by me. Ticket her for parking illegally she was wrong (but I am not even sure parking there was illegal) but it is common sense to try and keep your child out of the cold.

[GothicGyrl]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-crestwood13dec13,1,4315152.story
From the story:
"My 2-year-old had fallen fast asleep," Coyne said. "It was sleeting, and I said, 'I'm not going to risk carrying my kid and falling.'"

Bolding mine--but she can risk other things? Sorry...

However.. this is where I change my tune a bit towards the more sympathetic to her, also from the story:
She assumed the other girls were in police custody.

But they weren't.

"The police abandoned my other daughters at the Wal-Mart," said Janecyk, who eventually found them seated on a bench in the Wal-Mart. "I asked them why they didn't ask for help, but they said the police scared them."

Bolding also mine--the police LEFT her kids at walmart--ALONE and in front of walmart and NO ONE who witnessed this tried to help them!!!!!!

Now, if I were her, forgetting her careless logic, I would not only have some cops arse in a sling--I'd own walmart as well.

[nestof3]

I just figured they had been out anyway -- perhaps even had just come from Dad's office or whatever where they acquired the coins. Who cares why she went out -- it's her right to go out in the sleet.

She also wasn't parked illegally in a fire lane -- or did I miss that part?

She was arrested because some idiot thought she endangered her child.

Did you read how the statistic was given about HOW MANY children die in cars? And how many of them were left 10 yards away for less than 5 minutes?

Where is the logic? The children who die in cars die from being left in 110 degree cars for more than 5 minutes -- perhaps even an 8-hour work shift. This lady did not endanger her child -- it sounds like someone was having a bad day.

[nestof3]

but she can risk other things?

What was the risk? Can someone please point out to me the risk?

Okay, perhaps someone could walk up to the car, point a gun inside and shoot her sleeping daughter?

The same risk exists for any of us going anywhere -- or not going anywhere for that matter.

The lady gets an A for common sense in my book.

[Gigi]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-crestwood13dec13,1,4315152.story
From the story:


Bolding mine--but she can risk other things? Sorry...

Bolding also mine--the police LEFT her kids at walmart--ALONE and in front of walmart and NO ONE who witnessed this tried to help them!!!!!!

Now, if I were her, forgetting her careless logic, I would not only have some cops arse in a sling--I'd own walmart as well.


I think it showed wisdom to not risk falling which is far more likely then some stranger carjacking her vehicle in a busy walmart lot where officers were present. ;)

In the previous article it stated that her husband showed up while she was in the squad car. But if this article is true the fact that the officers didn't even take care of the kids she was supposedly "endangering". Good Grief. :banghead:

[GothicGyrl]

She also wasn't parked illegally in a fire lane -- or did I miss that part?

Yes you missed that part. She was parked in Walmart's "Loading Zone" which is clearly marked with "no parking loading zone" on it in big yellow letters. It also states "fire lane" at the very front, in front of the doors. Which means she was either parked directly in front of the doors--which is a violation-- or she wasn't "just feet" away, as the bell ringers are usually right in front of the doors and she would have had to park more than "just feet" away to not be blocking the doors.

And I never said she actually endangered her child (I presume you are speaking to me--who lives in the "locked in car 110* weather dead child capital")(next to texas maybe), I said she did not use common sense by parking and doing things the way she did.

[Tammy]

According to the law they stated....she never BROKE the law at all....

I don't get it....

[LadyNancy]

How far from the car could she have possibly been?

[GothicGyrl]

I think it showed wisdom to not risk falling which is far more likely then some stranger carjacking her vehicle in a busy walmart lot where officers were present.

I would not bet on this one. We've more carjackings in front of community service officers/cops in parking los than one thinks. Maybe ancedotal, but I would certainly not bet on this being more true over something else.

And c'est la vie. I think the woman lacked common sense. She certainly did not deserve arrest and I do hope she gets her justice from that, but she did lack common sense.

[nestof3]

I take my kids to the library but if it is snowing I will park and go to the drop box by myself and leave the kids in the car. Using the unloading/loading zone so she could unload donations seems fine by me.

I do this regardless of the weather. 99 percent of the time, when I return at the library, I also pick up, so we go inside. When I only have to return and the boys are with me, I lock the door, return them in the drop box and return to my car.

I also leave them in the car when I return a movie at Blockbuster's drop-off slot.

Someone come arrest me for endangering my kids!

[nestof3]

She certainly did not deserve arrest

What did she deserve? I still couldn't find anything that indicated she parked illegally.

So, you are saying she deserved WHAT for WHAT? Endangering her child? For going somewhere in the sleet?

[JuJuBee]

For going somewhere in the sleet? __________________


This is probably the next law. Cold weather and dangerous driving conditions. Scandal! Driving in the rain! The horror! Obviously children shouldn't be let outside their home unless it is between 65 and 80 degrees.

[Tammy]

Did the article say how the loading zone was marked? I must have missed that. I don't have a 'loading zone' at my WM.

[GothicGyrl]

How far from the car could she have possibly been?
Depends. If she was parked in front of the doors, right behind the bell ringer (or in front of them if you will--so it's car/bellringer) then only a very few.

But since the spot directly in front of the bell ringer is clearly marked as a fire lane, which is illegal to park in at any time, she'd have to move a few feet up(in fact!! The first article stated this!!) so she was at least 10 feet away from her car (read the article people--it states this as well).

10 feet is far enough away for something to happen. That's for sure. So as I did say I agreed with--an illegally parked ticket maybe? She was clearly parked and in an illegal spot (she wasn't loading/unloading and she was in or near the fire zone)...

But arrest her? I agreed that was too much.

Ok I'll say it more clearly, so fling that rep-- READ THE ARTICLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH!! It clearly states where she was parked, what she did to park and why she did it.

Here, I'll save you the hassle:
Even as she buckled 2-year-old Phoebe into the car, the girl was asleep. When Coyne arrived at the store, she found a spot to park in a loading zone, right behind someone tying a Christmas tree onto a car.

and
So Coyne switched on the emergency flashers, locked the car, activated the alarm and walked the other children to the bell ringer.

[JuJuBee]

I would not bet on this one. We've more carjackings in front of community service officers/cops in parking los than one thinks. Maybe ancedotal, but I would certainly not bet on this being more true over something else.

But the fact is that all these are very remote chances statistically. What is the likelihood that she is holding the sleeping child, slips, falls, and the child suffers a head injury? What is the likelihood that a carjacker happens upon her car *at that moment* and in spite of the lock and alarm, makes off with the car? What is the likelihood that a meteor hits the WalMart parking lot in the fire lane? The point is they are all remote possibilities, and so choosing to take one risk (i.e., whatever risk there is to having a child sleeping in the carseat for 5 minutes without supervision) instead of another (taking child out in cold, slippery parking lot) is not an unreasonable course of action.



10 feet is far enough away for something to happen.


What? What exactly is the risk to a child sleeping in a carseat? And also, how is it worse than whatever level of risk there is to my Cecilia right now who is napping in her crib. I am downstairs, so more like, oh, 60 or 80 feet from her. I check on her every 20 minutes or so, which is longer than it took this woman to drop off the money. Why is what I am doing OK but what she did wrong?

[nestof3]

She was unloading. She was unloading MONEY! LOL :lol::lol:

Just be stingy like me and let someone else give to the Salvation Army next time. :lol::lol:

[Tammy]

You said 10 feet is far enough away for something to happen......LIKE WHAT?

[GothicGyrl]

You said 10 feet is far enough away for something to happen......LIKE WHAT?
Tammy--I say this respectfully because I do like you and have no ill against you but..

You honestly have to ask a question like that? You honestly have to question what could happen? Remote possibility or not--things CAN and DO happen.

[Tammy]

Yes I am asking....because I don't get it. If you are talking about getting carjacked.....why would her chances of getting carjacked be higher in that situation? Her chances of getting carjacked are the same as everyone in the parking lot.....

[JuJuBee]

You honestly have to ask a question like that? You honestly have to question what could happen? Remote possibility or not--things CAN and DO happen.
*Things* can happen in or outside of a car. There is risk inherent to life. The question is which risk do you choose? Do you choose the risk of walking in wet/slippery weather or the risk of leaving a sleeping child in a locked car 10 feet from you? Do you choose the risk of going outside, where you could die from a bee sting, lightening, a car accident, a terrorist attack, or do you never leave your house, where statistically most accidents occur? You cannot eliminate risk.

[GothicGyrl]

Yes I am asking....because I don't get it. If you are talking about getting carjacked.....why would her chances of getting carjacked be higher in that situation? Her chances of getting carjacked are the same as everyone in the parking lot.....
True--but she's more of a target because she left the car running.. think like a criminal for a moment--which is going to pose a bigger(or better if you will) chance of you succeeding--a running car already facing an exit type direction with keys inside (they'd have to be, car is on) and it is unattended OR a parked, not running car for which you not only have to wrest the keys out of the owners but start the car, reverse and then exit?

Were I the criminal, I know which one I'd choose. Now, her car was locked, so her chances of a carjacking went significantly down. But what if they car caught fire? Keys inside, baby inside? Or started rolling (it has happened, gear shift unlocks, I've had it happen to me) keys/baby inside?

LOTS of things could have happened. That they did not just means she got lucky.

[GothicGyrl]

*Things* can happen in or outside of a car. There is risk inherent to life. The question is which risk do you choose? Do you choose the risk of walking in wet/slippery weather or the risk of leaving a sleeping child in a locked car 10 feet from you? Do you choose the risk of going outside, where you could die from a bee sting, lightening, a car accident, a terrorist attack, or do you never leave your house, where statistically most accidents occur? You cannot eliminate risk.
And this argument is simply a strawman/red herring or one of them. Of course there is risk in everything we do. That still does not justify what she did or the risk she took.


For the record, lest anyone think I actually support her arrest (why would you when I've said many times I did not).. *I* have common sense and if *I* walked up on this situation, *I* have enough gravy train in me to ask someone "is that your car/kid?" and a yes answer would have caused me to do absolutely nothing but walk away. That cop overstepped their boundaries and went way above the law. But that does not let her off the hook, it only releases the hold a bit.

[nestof3]

LOTS of things could have happened. That they did not just means she got lucky.

Lots of things COULD happen. The chances of her having an accident that would result in the endangerment of her child present as well, so should we all be arrested for driving with children in the car?

[Tammy]

I think you are getting carried away now, LOL! I thought she turned off her car.... The chances of any of the things you listed really happening....are slim to none, LOL! I mean....I have no ill feelings for you at all....but the things you listed as 'might happen'....are pretty ridiculous!

[Queen_Zarga]

True--but she's more of a target because she left the car running.. think like a criminal for a moment--which is going to pose a bigger(or better if you will) chance of you succeeding--a running car already facing an exit type direction with keys inside (they'd have to be, car is on) and it is unattended OR a parked, not running car for which you not only have to wrest the keys out of the owners but start the car, reverse and then exit?

Were I the criminal, I know which one I'd choose. Now, her car was locked, so her chances of a carjacking went significantly down. But what if they car caught fire? Keys inside, baby inside? Or started rolling (it has happened, gear shift unlocks, I've had it happen to me) keys/baby inside?

LOTS of things could have happened. That they did not just means she got lucky.

But the article says:
So Coyne switched on the emergency flashers, locked the car, activated the alarm and walked the other children to the bell ringer.

How do you alarm a running car?

[JuJuBee]

a running car already facing an exit type direction with keys inside (they'd have to be, car is on) and it is unattended OR a parked, not running car for which you not only have to wrest the keys out of the owners but start the car, reverse and then exit?

Not true. My car has a remote start, and if someone gets in without the keys and tries to put it in gear, it shuts off immediately. Also, it can be locked, and the remote start ignited, such that the car is running with the doors locked and the car alarmed.

[JuJuBee]

And this argument is simply a strawman/red herring or one of them. Of course there is risk in everything we do. That still does not justify what she did or the risk she took.


The argument is perfectly relevant. She had to weigh the risks of whichever course of action she took. You have argued that she took the least sensical course. I am saying that when the risks are so small, it is often darn near impossible to know which risk is greater. I am also saying that we always take all sorts of small risks, so taking a small risk does not demonstrate lack of common sense, else there wouldn't be such a thing as common sense at all.

[GothicGyrl]

I think you are getting carried away now, LOL! I thought she turned off her car.... The chances of any of the things you listed really happening....are slim to none, LOL! I mean....I have no ill feelings for you at all....but the things you listed as 'might happen'....are pretty ridiculous!
You've got to be kidding me, right? You seriously think a carjacking does not happen like that? Are you serious? I am just flabbergasted that you honestly believe car jacking don't happen the way I mention them. Please, I refer you to goolge 101 and type in "car jacking"---here I did it for you:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=9KE&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=car+jacking&spell=1
(pay close attention to the videos, some of them are survellince cameras and the carjackings happen exactly as I said they did)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carjacking


If you still don't believe what I am saying, slim to none or not.. I will now bow out of this thread and just go cry. I cannot imagine someone not believing in the real dangers that do exist. And, I'll just say this--if she turned her car off (which it does not say), then she doubley stinks.

There I said it.

[GothicGyrl]

a

Not true. My car has a remote start, and if someone gets in without the keys and tries to put it in gear, it shuts off immediately. Also, it can be locked, and the remote start ignited, such that the car is running with the doors locked and the car alarmed.
Ancedote does not equal data. YOUR car might not start. Someone else's will.

I will bow out now because I am just in shock that some find what she did acceptable. I am getting angry at the thought of this. I've seen what locked, closed up cars do to kids, up close and real. I will never forget the images in my head and I won't forgive it.

I'm done. Sorry I ever got involved. Truly.

[Tammy]

According to the article YOU POSTED....it said, "So she turned off the engine, put her hazard lights on, locked the car and walked 30 feet from the car to get a few snapshots of the girls, Coyne said."

Your chances of getting carjacked are much higher at a gas station or red light....than in the loading zone of Walmart, LOL!

[Perry]

According to this (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-crestwood13dec13,1,4315152.story) the car was off, until the police turned it on.

[RoughCollie]

Of course real dangers exist. Babies have been stolen out of cars while the mother returns the cart to the stand, for example.

The thing is that most people don't think that sort of thing will happen to them. And they are correct about one thing -- it is highly unusual, and it probably won't. The odds are way less than a .01% chance, I would think. Anecdote does not equal data about crimes, as well.

Would a reasonable person have done as this woman did? Probably so. The risk she took was miniscule.

Would I have done it? No way. I think about the bad things that might happen, no matter how tiny the risk, and try to prevent them. But I'm kind of weird that way, and that is probably due to my having been the victim of a serious crime: to wit, kidnapping at gunpoint. The risk of that happening to someone is extremely low as well.


I cannot imagine someone not believing in the real dangers that do exist. And, I'll just say this--if she turned her car off (which it does not say), then she doubley stinks.

There I said it.

[GothicGyrl]

According to the article YOU POSTED....it said, "So she turned off the engine, put her hazard lights on, locked the car and walked 30 feet from the car to get a few snapshots of the girls, Coyne said."

Your chances of getting carjacked are much higher at a gas station or red light....than in the loading zone of Walmart, LOL!
And according to FACT and Statistics, you would be wrong:

http://www.crimedoctor.com/carjacking.htm

Pay close attention to the heading "Where Does Carjacking Occur"

Top of the 4th paragraph:
Popular carjacking locations are parking lots, shopping centers, gas stations, car washes, convenience stores, ATMs, hotels, valet parking, fast-food drive-thru, and outside of retail stores. Close proximity to a freeway onramp is a desirable escape factor from the carjackers prospective. A risky, but popular location for the carjacker is a roadway intersection with a stoplight.

Only lastly are red lights "popular"(on your red light issue, not gas stations and only to show it's more of a concern outside a walmart than a red light).

Now please. I am not speaking on this from a "OMG SHE LEFT HER BABIEZZZZZZZ!!!!" stance. :D

I've said she did not deserve arrest. I've said that the officer was an idiot. But according to fact and statistics, she was putting herself in high risk. That alone is enough to make me question. Even though according to this: http://huntsville.injuryboard.com/new-laws-about-leaving-children-unattended-in-cars.php what she did does warrant arrest and a fine. I'm still looking for actual laws.

Here is one state, Maryland, that says it's law: http://www.lawlib.state.md.us/UnattendedChildren.html

[JuJuBee]

GothicGirl, I am not saying that no dangers exist. I am saying there are always dangers, and we have to weigh them before making a choice.

We don't know about this woman's car. You said in essence that her car was running and therefore there was more danger. I have a car with a remote start, and if she did lock and alarm a running car, it's not unreasonable to suspect that she had a remote access of some sort as well. I did not say that what my car does is what all cars do (anecdote = data), only that my car functions this way and thus hers may have as well -- you are the one who made assumptions as to what running cars can and cannot do and how they will and will not react.

[strider]

She is from Illinois....People go out in it all the time to run errands. Seriously unless a blizzard was happening I never postponed errands when we lived in Chicago. N. Illinois has been going through a rough winter and if you waited for it to be warm and nice out you wouldn't be going anywhere. It isn't Florida. :-)

In Illinois there is sooooo much bad weather--everyone goes out and takes care of business anyway.

I have NO issues with what this woman did, but I do have LOTS of issues with the cop in this case. Frankly, the cop ought to be fired.

[JuJuBee]

Only lastly are red lights "popular"(on your red light issue, not gas stations and only to show it's more of a concern outside a walmart than a red light).


But, as they didn't provide data, you are assuming that they were listing the popular spots in decending order of frequency. Maybe, maybe not.

[Queen_Zarga]

If you still don't believe what I am saying, slim to none or not.. I will now bow out of this thread and just go cry.

I'm done. Sorry I ever got involved. Truly.

And according to FACT and Statistics, you would be wrong:
.
.
.



For someone done talking, you sure talk a lot. :confused:

[GothicGyrl]

GothicGirl, I am not saying that no dangers exist. I am saying there are always dangers, and we have to weigh them before making a choice.

We don't know about this woman's car. You said in essence that her car was running and therefore there was more danger. I have a car with a remote start, and if she did lock and alarm a running car, it's not unreasonable to suspect that she had a remote access of some sort as well. I did not say that what my car does is what all cars do (anecdote = data), only that my car functions this way and thus hers may have as well -- you are the one who made assumptions as to what running cars can and cannot do and how they will and will not react.
No, I stated that it is entirely more possible for her situation to end up in a carjacking and I backed it up with fact--after Tammy said it wasn't likely to happen in her situation.

I'd welcome you to look at the videos in google, where you would see cars on and off, left alone and attended, being carjacked. I'd also welcome you to read what I just posted above with regard as to how they actually do happen.

Her case, though unlikely, makes it very easy for a carjacker to drive off with her car AND her baby inside.

[LizzyBee]

But since the spot directly in front of the bell ringer is clearly marked as a fire lane, which is illegal to park in at any time, she'd have to move a few feet up(in fact!! The first article stated this!!) so she was at least 10 feet away from her car (read the article people--it states this as well).

10 feet is far enough away for something to happen. That's for sure.

Laws about fire lanes are set by state and local law. I've been in Walmarts that do not have a marked fire lane in front of the store.

When my kids go outside to play they are more than 10 feet away from me. Sometimes they are even outside of my view. We live in a neighborhood, so there could be people around. So what????? We all take calculated risks on a daily basis. The risk of a locked, alarmed car being broken into while people are nearby is miniscule.

On the risk of carjacking vs. falling - I lived in Baltimore for 11 years, where carjacking is a common occurrence. I've fallen with a baby in my arms, but I was never carjacked. I've personally known lots of people who fell in bad weather, but not a single one who was carjacked. So it's only anecdotal, but I do think falling is much more common than carjacking, even in areas where carjacking is common.

I really hope the judge reams the cop for making the arrest, but unfortunately it's more likely that the woman will be found guilty and charged a fine.

[GothicGyrl]

For someone done talking, you sure talk a lot. :confused:
haha, yeah you are right, I do. Faulty wiring I suppose.

I consider many here friends, at least on line. It really pains me to hear them agreeing that what this woman did was alright and ok by them

So, I'll turn the tables on you.. what if it were a guy? Can you HONESTLY tell me the exact same thing or would you want him strung up for being so reckless because "guys just don't think like women do?" ( a long ago in the past thread on the old board when something very similar came up. They were ready to string the guy up and felt sorry for the mom for losing her baby)

[LizzyBee]

Here is one state, Maryland, that says it's law: http://www.lawlib.state.md.us/UnattendedChildren.html

Here is the law from the link you posted:

A child under the age of 8 years and out of sight (in a dwelling, building, enclosure, or motor vehicle) of the person charged with his/her care must be left with a reliable person at least 13 years old.

The child was never out of the mother's sight, so apparently there wouldn't have been a violation under MD law.

[GothicGyrl]

Here is the law from the link you posted:

A child under the age of 8 years and out of sight (in a dwelling, building, enclosure, or motor vehicle) of the person charged with his/her care must be left with a reliable person at least 13 years old.

The child was never out of the mother's sight, so apparently there wouldn't have been a violation under MD law.

The CAR was never out of the mom's site, the child was, in fact, out of site--windows up, door shut, car locked. Unless she did not have tinted windows (again, I'm only countering you on this), then yes--the child was out of site.

A minor technicality, but one I could argue.

[Tammy]

It didn't take long to find a website....that says differently.... http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/rpt/19782.htm
Pay close attention to this part:

The most likely places for a carjacking are:

High crime areas
Lesser traveled roads (rural areas)
Intersections where you must stop
Isolated areas in parking lots
Residential driveways and gates
Traffic jams or congested areas

[JuJuBee]

On the risk of carjacking vs. falling - I lived in Baltimore for 11 years, where carjacking is a common occurrence. I've fallen with a baby in my arms, but I was never carjacked. I've personally known lots of people who fell in bad weather, but not a single one who was carjacked. So it's only anecdotal, but I do think falling is much more common than carjacking, even in areas where carjacking is common.
Same is true for me when we lived in DC. I slipped several times, but was never highjacked.

Of course without real data, it's just conjecture, which is why I still think it's impossible to say whether she made the best decision. She made the decison she thought best at the time between two very, very small risks. It doesn't require a cop's intervention on any level, and it certainly does not require taxpayer's money to go to trial!

[JuJuBee]

A child under the age of 8 years and out of sight (in a dwelling, building, enclosure, or motor vehicle) of the person charged with his/her care must be left with a reliable person at least 13 years old.
So, if your 3 year old is napping, and you step out on the front porch to shake a rug, are you violating a law?

[GothicGyrl]

It doesn't require a cop's intervention on any level, and it certainly does not require taxpayer's money to go to trial!


And I did say I agreed with this (so give me my cookie now)...;) I just also added that *I* don't feel she used common sense.

And Tammy--tit for tat.. we could play a version of youtube poker, only with google stats search? Wanna? :)

Seriously, when I typed in "car jacking statistics" what I linked to is what came up. The guy is an expert in this particular field and has documented much of what was stated, himself. I do remember him having a show on Discovery Channel about this as well. Fascinating read, his books are. But if you aren't in to Crime Analysing, it might bore you.

[Joanne]

The irony is amazing.

She's arrested while her girls are depositing money for charity.

She's keeping one child "safe" while accepting other risks such as the one that happened (nosy people, zealous cops).

She's being subjectively inconsiderate while allowing her older girls to "give".

She doesn't want to fall with the baby but the weather is fine enough to not miss the photo op.

The errand, "trip", event is completely voluntary and not tied to an appointment.

Did she deserve what she got. Absolutely not. Did she use common sense and common courtesy? Absolutely not.

It's all a bit crazy.

I can only wish that every car that parks in the front of a store (usually called the FIRE LANE) would get towed....or ticketed!!!!! You don't know how many times this happens....I guess these people feel special or something.... As you can see....this is my biggest pet peeve when going to Publix!

In no parking, standing zones in front of stores, I completely agree.

[GothicGyrl]

So, if your 3 year old is napping, and you step out on the front porch to shake a rug, are you violating a law?
It does say "in a dwelling" and dwelling was once a common word for living space, but would they really snag you for it happening in your own home?

I should hope not. But I wouldn't put anything past nosey neighbors either.

[RoughCollie]

Carjacking, 1993-2002

* Carjacking rates were higher on average during the first 5 years of the 1993-2002 period (2.1 per 10,000 persons each year) than during the last 5 years (1.3 per 10,000).
* Carjacking victimization rates were highest in urban areas, followed by suburban and rural areas. Ninety-three percent of carjackings occurred in cities or suburbs.
* A weapon was used in 74% of carjacking victimizations. Firearms were used in 45% of carjackings, knives in 11% and other weapons in 18%.

Source: http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/abstract/c02.htm
U.S. Department of Justice

[JuJuBee]

And I did say I agreed with this (so give me my cookie now)...;) I just also added that *I* don't feel she used common sense.


White chocolate chip or macademia nut? ;)

[GothicGyrl]

White chocolate chip or macademia nut? ;)
White chocolate chip please. :)

And Rough Collie--that isn't detailed. That's one of the first links that come up in Google and I purposely avoided it because of its lack of detail. It's true, yes, but I was looking for detail to try and back up what I was saying. :D

[chiguirre]

Here are links to the 2 Chicago Tribune articles about this case:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-momontrial,0,833520.story

and

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-crestwood13dec13,1,4315152.story

She turned off her car, locked and alarmed it.
The police turned the car on later with the toddler inside it. It didn't say if they had someone sitting in the car with her.
The police also left the 9 and 8 yos unattended in the Wal-mart. The father found them sitting there unsupervised.
IL law according to the Trib is:

In Illinois, parents who leave their children in a car out of sight and unattended by anyone at least 14 years old for 10 minutes or more can face child-endangerment charges that carry a penalty of up to a year in jail and a $2,500 fine.

It's not really clear that this woman even technically broke the law. I'm guessing the Walmart video timer and sight lines determine that.

So, not surprisingly, the chief of police is not commenting. He's probably hoping not to be sued or possibly charged with child endangerment.

What a complete mess!

[JuJuBee]

(1.3 per 10,000


So, the risk of carjacking on any given day is 1 in 3.6 million.
According to this site: http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

The yearly risk of falling to your death are 1/502,837, or a daily risk of about 1/182 million.

But I bet you're more likely to fall in icy weather. Maybe 10 times more likely? So let's say 1/18.2 million.

So now it's clear. She should've taken the 1/18.2 million risk of falling and dying with the baby in her arms over the 1/3.6 million risk of carjacking! Which means, at least to me, that she should *definitely* go to jail for taking a 1/3 million risk with her child! ;)

[Tammy]

Well you didn't prove me wrong....which was your goal :) .... I think the point of this whole discussion with you is....to NOT park where she did for FEAR of being carjacked.....is silly! Your chances of being hurt in a car accident are much greater!

[Ellie]

This is ridiculous. Much of parenting is common sense--and she clearly used it, but is somehow being used as a guinea pig to prove a point. Trials like this are a waste of time, tax payer money, and emotional strain for persons involved.

Texas has a 5 minute rule to allow children to be alone in car just for circumstances such as this.

But you know what they say: If sense were more common, more people would have it. Clearly the police could use some. Maybe folks could take up a collection and buy them a clue...

[RoughCollie]

Did you read the report at the link?

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/c02.pdf

White chocolate chip please. :)

And Rough Collie--that isn't detailed. That's one of the first links that come up in Google and I purposely avoided it because of its lack of detail. It's true, yes, but I was looking for detail to try and back up what I was saying. :D

[GothicGyrl]

Well you didn't prove me wrong....which was your goal :) .... I think the point of this whole discussion with you is....to NOT park where she did for FEAR of being carjacked.....is silly! Your chances of being hurt in a car accident are much greater!
If you feel that justifies her leaving the kid alone, then so be it. Obviously, I disagree. I can't very well leave my baby home alone just to avoid a car accident, but I can most definitely not leave them alone in a locked, not running car--purely for her safety. You might think my logic faulty, so be it. I'll take the risk driving the kid to the store, but not leaving them alone in a locked, not running car.

[GothicGyrl]

Did you read the report at the link?

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/c02.pdf
yep and page 2 backs up what I said:

• 44% of carjacking incidents occurred in an open
area, such as on the street (other than immediately
adjacent to the victim's own home or that of a friend or
neighbor) or near public transportation (such as a
bus, subway, or train station or an airport), and 24%
occurred in parking lots or garages or near commercial
places such as stores, gas stations, office
buildings, restaurants/bars, or other commercial
facilities.

Which also backs up what the "crime doctor" website says. That's enough for me. ;)

[Perry]

But it's only carjacking if the driver is in it. Otherwise it's theft.

[GothicGyrl]

But it's only carjacking if the driver is in it. Otherwise it's theft.
umm, baby left alone in car, doors locked, windows up, car not running= carjacking.

Carjacking is ANYone in the car, not just the driver.

[Perry]

umm, baby left alone in car, doors locked, windows up, car not running= carjacking.

Carjacking is ANYone in the car, not just the driver.

It depends whose definition you're using. To commit forcible theft of (a vehicle) from its users. (http://www.answers.com/topic/carjacking?cat=biz-fin)

the theft of an automobile from its driver by force or intimidation (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carjacking)

But anyway, even if you want to call it carjacking, it's most likely to happen when the driver is getting in or out. Not when she's 10 yards away. So whether she has left the kid in the car or not really is irrelevant. The risk is the same. Now if she'd left the car on, or the keys in the car, I'd feel a whole lot differently about it.

[Tammy]

I asked my police neighbor....and he said it wouldn't be considered a carjacking....like you said! It would be a auto theft and kidnapping.

[nestof3]

Good grief -- remind me not to post articles like this anymore. Pages of nothingness.

I cannot believe people are that paranoid about leaving a sleeping baby in a car within sight for a few minutes.

I also cannot believe how many people have gotten so ruffled about someone temporarily parking in a fire lane in front of Walmart. The whole thing is so funny. I have NEVER seen a fire truck in front of any store, and don't tell me the lady couldn't have gotten out of the way in time. It would take that long to clear the people and carts.

Yeah, yeah -- I know it's against the law, and I don't make a habit of doing so, but I will pick up my mother at the front door

AND I would park in front to drop off some coins to the Salvation Army.

[Joanne]

I also cannot believe how many people have gotten so ruffled about someone temporarily parking in a fire lane in front of Walmart.


I also cannot believe how many people have gotten so ruffled about someone temporarily parking in a fire lane in front of Walmart. The whole thing is so funny. I have NEVER seen a fire truck in front of any store, and don't tell me the lady couldn't have gotten out of the way in time. It would take that long to clear the people and carts.

I dated a fireman when I was in my early 20's. Parking in fire lanes seems harmless; what are the chances of a fire at that store at the time you are there? Seemingly nil.

But if the store is on fire (or an ambulance needs to come), the chances are 100%. My bf reported fire line issues did impact their ability to respond.

She was away, with 2 kids in sleet taking pictures. If there was an emergency, she would be a delay in emergency persononel assisting.

I, personally, find it discourteous and entitlement thinking. And in most cases I can think of locally, "parking" in that lane disrupts an existing lane of traffic flow.

Yeah, yeah -- I know it's against the law, and I don't make a habit of doing so, but I will pick up my mother at the front door

I've got a disabled FIL and a dd whose disease makes her unsteady in inclimate weather. A fall can hyperextend her joints and hurt for a long time. I make do and try to be courteous.

Pages of nothingness.

I cannot believe people are that paranoid about leaving a sleeping baby in a car within sight for a few minutes.

FWIW, I am one of the least "paranoid" about issues relating to safety on this board. My kids play outside unsupervised, sometimes when I am not even home, they've gone to public bathrooms alone for years, they do camp, sleepovers and other events away from me.

I find what the woman did, while not an arrestable offense, an offense of courtesy and a misjudgment of priority.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

I think it would be far less likely for a guy to be in this position in the first place. Somehow I can't see a police officer reaming a guy his size in the same situation. There are certain petty tyrant types that enjoy pushing smaller people around.

Barb


haha, yeah you are right, I do. Faulty wiring I suppose.

I consider many here friends, at least on line. It really pains me to hear them agreeing that what this woman did was alright and ok by them

So, I'll turn the tables on you.. what if it were a guy? Can you HONESTLY tell me the exact same thing or would you want him strung up for being so reckless because "guys just don't think like women do?" ( a long ago in the past thread on the old board when something very similar came up. They were ready to string the guy up and felt sorry for the mom for losing her baby)

[Colleen]

I'll play devil's advocate here...

I think that's what this boils down to, Toni. Let's imagine this would've been posted in a different light ~ "Omigosh, can you believe this lady's reckless behavior?!" And let's further say people started nodding in agreement ~ "Good grief, this woman doesn't even deserve to have kids!" yada yada yada. You know what you would've done? Posted ad nauseam from the other perspective, lamenting parental paranoia and so on and so forth. You'll talk yourself in circles trying to prove your point ~ and all the moreso if you're in the minority.:001_tt1:

[strider]

Thank God! I could not believe this went this far--it's ridiculous.

Charges expected to be dropped against Tinley Park mother, source says

By Matthew Walberg | Tribune reporter
March 13, 2008

Charges are expected to be dropped Thursday against a Tinley Park mother of three who was accused of leaving her sleeping 2-year-old in the family station wagon while her other children donated money at a Salvation Army kettle, a source said Wednesday.

Ellen "Treffly" Coyne, 36, is scheduled to appear in court in Bridgeview Thursday on charges of misdemeanor child endangerment and obstruction of justice.

Coyne and her husband had not been notified as of Wednesday night.

"I'm happy that the [Cook County] state's attorney may be the first voice of reason in this whole affair," said Coyne's husband, Tim Janecyk. "I'm still angry that Crestwood police, who have the same case today as they did when they busted up my family, have pushed it to this point. If she's guilty tomorrow, then there will instantly be a million other criminals out there named Mom."

While the couple expected to prevail, they said they have had to bear the stigma of being accused of child abuse.

"Basically, I was lumped in with all those people who abuse their kids, who hit them so there are bruises showing and things like that," Coyne said. "It's humiliating, and it's insulting."

Coyne and her three daughters, Sierra, 9, Haley, 8, and Phoebe, 2, went to a Wal-Mart in Crestwood on Dec. 8 to donate $8.29 the children had collected for the annual kettle drive. Phoebe fell asleep, so Coyne said she parked at the curb, shut off the engine, locked the doors and activated the hazard lights before leaving the station wagon to take a photo of the girls as they dumped their coins into the bucket.

Though Coyne said she was never more than 30 feet from the vehicle, a Crestwood police officer saw the car and arrested her.

In Illinois, parents who leave a child unattended in a car for 10 minutes can be charged with misdemeanor child endangerment, which carries a penalty of up to a year in jail and a $2,500 fine. Janecyk said he wants to lobby the General Assembly to clarify the law.

The case set off an intense debate on numerous Internet message boards between those ridiculing police for abusing their power and those siding with them for acting. A Dec. 13 Tribune article about the arrest was followed by more than 3,000 comments posted to its Web site.

Coyne and her family have asked for an apology from Crestwood. Police Chief Timothy Sulikowski could not be reached for comment Wednesday evening.

-----------

mwalberg@tribune.com

[strider]

I should have clarified this article is copied and pasted from today's Chicago Tribune.

[cin]

I am sending this article to my DH, who leaves the kids in the car all the time for the run in/run out. And while I trust his judgement, it's the demented, busy body weenie in the next car that I DON'T trust. As a homeschooling family, we would probably be charged with everything under the sun if police or CPS found out. >SIGH< :sad:

[KarenNC]

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/15257143/detail.html

http://www.kidsandcars.org/fire.htm

In one, the mother left the children inside while she went in the store. In the other, she left them while she went to pick up a child from inside the kindergarten. Note that these were primarily very young children, strapped in their car seats.

It doesn't require 110 degrees or hours. It can take seconds at any temperature.

Yes, my child is out of my sight in my neighborhood or at the park at times, but she certainly wasn't when she was 2 or 3 years old.

[JuJuBee]

In one, the mother left the children inside while she went in the store. In the other, she left them while she went to pick up a child from inside the kindergarten. Note that these were primarily very young children, strapped in their car seats.

It doesn't require 110 degrees or hours. It can take seconds at any temperature.


But again, it is an issue of risk assessment. There is a risk to carrying your child. There is a risk, a quantifiable risk, of a fall killing you and your child. And my strong suspiscion, given that risk for spontaneous explosion of cars isn't quantifiable and falls are, that you are at more risk of a deadly fall at any given moment than you are of a spontaneous car explosion.

[Cadam]

finally a voice of reason. She could see the car the whole time for goodness sake!

[Meliss]

I am sending this article to my DH, who leaves the kids in the car all the time for the run in/run out. And while I trust his judgement, it's the demented, busy body weenie in the next car that I DON'T trust. As a homeschooling family, we would probably be charged with everything under the sun if police or CPS found out. >SIGH< :sad:

When I went to the grocery store the other day with my toddler, I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies :glare:, as you so aptly put it, that might cause a stink. I've heard about this sort of thing happening too many times recently.

[angela in ohio]

How did it take her 10 minutes just to put money in the kettle?

[GothicGyrl]

I think that's what this boils down to, Toni. Let's imagine this would've been posted in a different light ~ "Omigosh, can you believe this lady's reckless behavior?!" And let's further say people started nodding in agreement ~ "Good grief, this woman doesn't even deserve to have kids!" yada yada yada. You know what you would've done? Posted ad nauseam from the other perspective, lamenting parental paranoia and so on and so forth. You'll talk yourself in circles trying to prove your point ~ and all the moreso if you're in the minority.:001_tt1:
Maybe, maybe not. You might find that I actually agree with you ladies on a lot of things, I just see and speak about those things from a different light.

Using your example, would I have lamented "parental paranoia" and fought against you from that angle? Probably not. I can say that because I've never left my children alone in the car, at any age..I just cannot do it. So using the OP as the scene and your example--you would have been surprised to find me in agreeance.

Otherwise, I've said throughout the thread that she did not deserve the treatment received, I just felt she did not use common sense.

[Gigi]

I don't think they ever said how long it took. But I assume it didn't take that long and instead of waiting and asking around the officer immediately acted.

[Hilary]

How did it take her 10 minutes just to put money in the kettle?

I read in another article that she was taking some photos of the girls putting their money in the kettle. I seem to remember that she had picked up some of the girls' friends to donate money at the same time. I think that the girls had been collecting money for a while, and this was their grand moment. It was also sleeting, and her toddler had been asleep even before the mom put her in the car. I wouldn't have taken my toddler out either. I feel really sorry for this family!

[Valerie in Chicago]

This is why I love our tinted windows in the back. Weenie busybodies have to get awfully close to our car to see the kids. Which means I can fly into What The He** Do You Want? mode.

[OnTheBrink]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.

[nutmeg]

When I went to the grocery store the other day with my toddler, I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it.

I did this (toddler and preschooler), and then got chewed out by a busybody for not putting my cart away in the corral. I had secured it so it would not roll, and it was not blocking another parking space. Oh well, sometimes you just can't win!

[GothicGyrl]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.
10 years old is much different than 2. A 10 year old, as you said, CAN and does do those things. A two year old doesn't really know how to reason "if A happens do B". A 10 year old can.

I wouldn't say anything about a 10 year old.

Now, good for them. Hopefully the cop does get some form of punishment for taking this too far. A fine and be done with it, is all she should have received.

[GreenKitty]

I would not have left my baby in the car PERIOD. Their are laws in dif states about ages being allowed to be left alone. I don't know what theirs is.

[Danestress]

Gosh, call me a weanie busybody. If I see a 2 year old left alone in a car, I am waiting around. And if no one shows up, I'm asking around. Then if no one shows up, I am calling the police. If someone shows up, I'm leaving - I have no desire to report someone for running into BlockBusters to drop off a video. But I probably am going to stand around until I make sure a parent is going to show up.

Not long ago, a woman was in the news having left three kids in a car while she made a quick trip into a convenience store. For whatever reason, the car caught fire. I believe all the children were rescued. I tried to find the article, but couldn't find it, and found these instead.

http://www.kidsandcars.org/fire.htm

I can imagine doing what the woman in this case (the Chicago case) did. I don't think it's that big of a deal. She could see the car the whole time. But I think the officer was fine to check it out (not fine to arrest her once he got the details) and I think someone checking out a child left alone in a car is fine. I think that's a GOOD person. I would never characterize that as "weanie busybody." Once they find out that you are actually right there, they they can leave, having satisfied themselves of the child's safety.

But I would never see a two year old (or four year old) alone in a car and just ignore it. I would definitely sort of sit in my car a few minutes, watching to make sure someone is coming right out. You might not even know I was there, but I would be. And if you didn't show up in a couple, I probably would go looking for you. And eventually I would probably call the police. Maybe I will change my name to Weanie Busybody, lol. I've been wanting a new one!

[WagsWife]

nt.

[j.griff]

Good grief. What age is acceptable to leave a child in a car? My dd is 10 and I leave her in the car to run into the post office, pay for gas, that sort of thing. She knows if anyone comes near the car and tries to talk to her she's to lay on the horn and stay on it until I come. But again, I'm talking about quick trips inside somewhere, all less than 10 minutes.

Here in CA, dc have to have someone 13yo or older with them if they are in a vehicle. That's a safety precaution for many many reasons.

[Frontier Mom]

I mean, what does that do to a child to see their Mom handcuffed and put into a police car after raising money to give? I think they owe them an apology, although they will probably never get one.

[j.griff]

Yeh- a person who comes along and sees a small child alone in a car has no idea how long the child has already been in the vehicle alone. The police officer didn't know how long she'd been in the car alone, he probably could have watched the security video to find out though. Lots of times people think that it'll just take a minute to do something, and end up taking longer. It doesn't take very long for small children to get too hot or too cold when left in a locked vehicle, and I think that police should take each case seriously- and if they have no way of knowing how long a child was left alone then they have every right to prosecute. If you are going to choose to leave a child in a car alone, then you are choosing to possibly pay the consequences, IMO.

[nestof3]

What I am thinking is, where do you draw the line? Things we do every day -- things that are commonly acceptable can result in detriment to someone.

Am I the only one here that takes a shower without another adult being present? I come up with ways to keep my children safe while doing so, but really, something still could happen.

I read really odd cases in the news -- I just read an article the other day where a boy told his friends to bury him in sand -- head first. People were bashing the parents for not teaching the children that you shouldn't bury a child headfirst -- that we should discuss the importance of breathing.

Good grief. Am I the only other mom that hadn't given that warning before?

With so much news at our fingertips, we are going to hear all sorts of things. I just read that a woman stayed on a toilet for 2 years! You can search the internet and come up with all sorts of things.

But none of the articles posted resembled this lady's scenario. She was standing right there! And, if she had been in the car and someone hijacked her entire family, then there wouldn't be anyone to blame, but since she was a few yards away from the car, it would have been her fault the car was hijacked.

I also don't understand how someone can hijack a locked car that isn't running.

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

But why don't we all sit down tonight and write down all the times in our lives when something COULD have happened to our children because we did not have a constant eye on them and/or because they were not outside of one foot away from us.

[Scarlett]

Am I the only one here that takes a shower without another adult being present? I come up with ways to keep my children safe while doing so, but really, something still could happen.

:iagree:

Your comment above reminded me about a friend of mine who took her baby into the shower with her....strapped in a seat of somekind (I never could quite picture what she talking about) because she was too afraid to leave baby 'alone' while she showered.

[j.griff]

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

But why don't we all sit down tonight and write down all the times in our lives when something COULD have happened to our children because we did not have a constant eye on them and/or because they were not outside of one foot away from us.

I'm not sure if you are directly replying to my post intentionally and therefore addressing me in some manner or not, but I'll reply as though you have and are. :)
I have an older child- she has taken babysitter training classes and knows what to do in an emergency. So many of the scenarios you discuss are N/A to us.
*I* am capable of leaving my Littles in the care of my oldest while checking the mail, running small errands, etc. *I* am legally capable of leaving all of my DC in a locked car for a reasonable amount of time. However, I am aware of our municipal code which requires that my school aged DC to be in my presence if they are in public during regular school hours- so I would not leave them in a vehicle in public alone during school hours because I don't want to deal with the possible consequences.
IF there is a law that specifies the amount of time a child can be left in a vehicle, and that law is "broken" then there are consequences to pay. Period.
It's a law. That does not mean that *I* personally agree with that law, but I am expected to abide by it and "igorance of the law" is no excuse for anyone.
If there is a law with a specified age required for children to be left in a vehicle, and that law is broken, there are consequences.

IMO, leaving a child in a public place in a vehicle is a totally different can of worms than leaving a child in their room while you take a shower, use the toilet, etc. Your home is not a public place. And yes, things still Can happen in your home, and yes you could be charged with neglect IF something went terribly wrong while you were occupied. I have a DF who's young son went out of their home (they lived on base in a US territory at the time) while she was still asleep. He had gotten up and decided to take a stroll. How was she to know he was awake? The front door was not close to the master bedroom, so she didn't hear it open. She did hear an MP officer banging on her door though, and he did mention the possibility of charges being pressed if something like that happened again.
The same DS later set their home on fire, and again the MP officer mentioned charges of neglect- why was DS alone in the living room long enough to start a fire? :rolleyes:
While I may not agree with those laws, I am aware of them and try my best to make sure that I am "covered" legally speaking.

[Kelli in TN]

I have been watching this thread since it started. I have hesitated to respond because, after taking the time to open and read all the responses, I was discouraged by the inflammatory tone of the thread.

I have mulled over my feelings on this subject since the whole conversation started.

I am greatly relieved that the charges have been dropped. I do believe the parents would not be out of line in pursuing a lawsuit against the over-zealous officer and the police dept. as whole. The fact that two children were abandoned at Wal-Mart would be enough, in my opinion, to warrant the firing of any officers on the scene. They acted no more responsibly than the mother did.

I am one of those "over protective" mothers. I did not leave my babies, toddlers, preschool age, elementary school age children alone in the car. I must have at least a 12 or 13 year old in the car. I have just recently started leaving my 12 year old in the car alone, but not with siblings. And not to go into a store like Wal-Mart. I will leave him to run into the Credit Union office (a very quick trip), or to run into a small store with large windows, like a Dollar General.

I do believe that if one is so afraid of falling that they must leave their baby alone in a vehicle, it is probably a sign that this is the wrong day for that errand. There is nothing so important as protecting those little ones. You cannot possibly eliminate every risk, but you can minimize risks.

The Salvation Army kettles are out all season long. She really could have made a better choice.

I always tried to ask myself "Is this the best?" not "Is this good enough?" or "Is this safe enough?". I always want to know that I am making the absolute best choice in the face of my circumstances. I do not believe her decision was the best and it is not the decision I would have made.

I have been known to stay around and watch over the children of strangers, from a safe distance, when I felt the parents were being negligent. I would not accost someone for leaving their child in harm's way, I am much too timid for that. But I will watch and wait for them to return before I go on about my business. I have done this at times to the point of inconveniencing my family.

I do believe the officer had every right to confront her. I think the officer would not have been out of line in giving her a warning or citation of some sort if the law provided for that. The officer did step over the line in arresting her, the officer did act negligently in abandoning her children at Wal-Mart. But there is blame enough here to go around.

My stance has been questioned, and sometime openly criticized nearly to the point of being ridiculed, by some on this board in the past, for being so very protective of my children, so perhaps you should take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I do not regret for one second every time I chose the harder way to do things to keep my children under my protection every minute to the best of my abilities.

[WendyK]

I never leave my kids alone in the car. But I think the authorities were being absolutely ridiculous towards this woman.

[Gigi]

Gosh, call me a weanie busybody. If I see a 2 year old left alone in a car, I am waiting around. And if no one shows up, I'm asking around. Then if no one shows up, I am calling the police. If someone shows up, I'm leaving - I have no desire to report someone for running into BlockBusters to drop off a video. But I probably am going to stand around until I make sure a parent is going to show up.



I agree with this. I would do the same thing. I think the officer should have asked around and if she did she would have quickly found the mom. I think that is acceptable.

In this case once the mother approached instead of yelling at her the officer could have explained she was concerned. The mother would then point to where she was (30 ft) still outside, explained the situation, and then been left alone.

[Gigi]

In Illinois it is 10 minutes. A few years earlier in Illinois a lady was arrested for going inside to pay for gas on a wintery day and not taking all of her kids inside with her. I believe those charges were dropped also.

[GothicGyrl]

If you have ever walked to the mailbox on your street without taking your children with you, you have been negligent according to some voices on this board. I think some people truly just enjoy arguing. I think some people just like tearing apart people in these sorts of news stories.

Jgriff--She's speaking to me. Her and another person are speaking about me because they think my "tone" is bad. This is the same thing said on the old board whenever I or anyone else challenges their thinking-- "we cause problems", or "we like to argue" or the tone of the thread is "inflammatory" because there are some who disagree and have discussed why. It's old, but, no--she's talking abuout me.

In any case, the proof of this is Joanne's posts have been totally overlooked--poor thing. She's said some good stuff and her posts have been ignored. And Kelli--I said the same things she did, I just didn't say it as nice as she did.

So its me not you. ;) and I flung you some rep because of these nasty comments. Ok, I tried to fling you some rep because of the nasty comments and it wouldn't let me--said I gotta spread more around before I spread to you again. Le Sigh.

[Scarlett]

I don't know what the law is in AR. I remember once though when I was still working and before ds was born, there was a big case locally about a woman who had an infant and an 18 month old and she left them in her car while she dashed in a convenience store to get a coke or something. I dont' remember all the details. But anyway, her car was carjacked. The carjacker immediately (like a few blocks away) realized he had BABIES in the back of this car and he pulled over at a store, jumped out and ran away. Oh, my. You should have heard the judgmental tirades against this poor young mother.

For the record, I have only one child and still and yet there have been times it has been impossible/highly impractical to get him out of his car seat for a 30 second errand into a store. Drycleaners/convenience store where I park right by the front door...blockbusters....I can't think of any more, but I know I've 'left' him in the car at times. And if I came back out to see a woman waiting to be sure the baby had not been abandoned...hey I"m fine with that. Smile, say, 'I was right there'. and go on my way. I would do the same thing. That police officer in IL just crossed the line. Ridiculous. Totally ridiculous.

[Danestress]

What I am thinking is, where do you draw the line? Things we do every day -- things that are commonly acceptable can result in detriment to someone.



I think this has been rehashed ad nauseum, and we all understand that different people have different ideas of what risk is acceptable.

I was merely commenting that I am proudly part of the "weanie busy-body" contingent, if by that you mean "hangs around cars where people have left toddlers unattended, just to make sure that someone is going to come back in a reasonable time." We've had a number of deaths in cars here recently - when parents didn't intend to come back in a minute or just forgot the child was there. I just need to know that the parent of that child is sensible, and I am staying until I know.

[JuJuBee]

I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies
One board I frequent had an enormous, huge, in-your-face, made-enemies-of-former-friends blow-up over people who leave their shopping carts in the lot without returning them to the cart bins.

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.


I loaded the groceries in the car, buckled him in the car, and left the cart beside my car rather than walk away from it. I did this because of potential demented busy body weenies


Also, I don't think it has to be an us vs. them thing. I have waited in my car beside a car where a baby was unattended. I looked at the clock, decided to wait 10 minutes before calling the police, kept my eye on the baby, and was happy to drive away when the Mom came out of the store in less then 3 minutes. On the other hand, I have called the police when I found a toddler alone walking on a sidewalk. The child couldn't talk and it wasn't clear what house they 'belonged' at. So I stayed with the baby and call the police. Before the police got there, the Mom came out.

So while I have argued that it is not unreasonable to leave a child in a locked car for that quick pay-for-gas-type errand, I am also cautious when I see people doing it, because some people don't return in an appropriate amount of time. And that is totally inexcusable.

It seems to me that there's a lot of area between an alarmist, mommier-than-thou "Oh I would NEVER NEVER NEVER take my eyes off my baby for ONE SECOND IN THE CAR!" and a "Leave 'em as long as you want, I don't care" attitude.

[Kelli in TN]

One board I frequent had an enormous, huge, in-your-face, made-enemies-of-former-friends blow-up over people who leave their shopping carts in the lot without returning them to the cart bins.

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.

Do we make things harder than they need to be? Granted I am out of the baby stage, but I have been there six times. I always just unloaded my grocery cart with the baby still in the seat and one hand on the baby. Then the cart, the baby and other assorted little people all went to the cart bin where we left the cart. I slung the baby on my shoulder or hip (depending on whether it was a wee shoulder babe or big strappin' hip baby), lined up the assorted kids and made them all hold hands or hang onto some part of my anatomy, and returned to the van. Simple.

We DID sort of look like a parade minus the balloons and clowns, though.:biggrinjester:

[j.griff]

Kelli,
I think that every person has to do what works for them. That's great, that you were able to do that with your DC. Some of us have runners though, and it would be a horrible risk to leave them outside a vehicle in a busy parking lot while we load groceries. :D

[Scarlett]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.

[melissel]

I am greatly relieved that the charges have been dropped. I do believe the parents would not be out of line in pursuing a lawsuit against the over-zealous officer and the police dept. as whole. The fact that two children were abandoned at Wal-Mart would be enough, in my opinion, to warrant the firing of any officers on the scene. They acted no more responsibly than the mother did.

<<snip>>

I do believe that if one is so afraid of falling that they must leave their baby alone in a vehicle, it is probably a sign that this is the wrong day for that errand. There is nothing so important as protecting those little ones. You cannot possibly eliminate every risk, but you can minimize risks.

The Salvation Army kettles are out all season long. She really could have made a better choice.

<<snip>>

I do believe the officer had every right to confront her. I think the officer would not have been out of line in giving her a warning or citation of some sort if the law provided for that. The officer did step over the line in arresting her, the officer did act negligently in abandoning her children at Wal-Mart. But there is blame enough here to go around.

ITA with all of this. IMO, 30 feet away from the car is pretty far away, particularly when you consider she had her back turned long enough to take pictures and shepherd several children into dropping money into the bucket. Lots can happen in 10 minutes. Highly unlikely, yes, but still possible.

I also agree about the parking in a fire lane. That's a safety precaution that's there for a reason. Wal-Mart parking lots, at least around here, are dangerous enough, with people walking and kids running and people looking for spaces and not where they're driving and cars trying to get in first every which way. Illegally parked cars make it more dangerous for everyone. And I'm not referring to people picking up or dropping off their elderly or infirm family members--I'm referring to people parking for 10 minutes at a time for errands that they decide are more important than everyone else's and that could be better left for another day.

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli,
I think that every person has to do what works for them. That's great, that you were able to do that with your DC. Some of us have runners though, and it would be a horrible risk to leave them outside a vehicle in a busy parking lot while we load groceries. :D


I don't know why I want to clarify this, but, oh, did I ever have some runners!!!

Oh. My. Goodness. We had one that would sneak out of the house and wander away. We had to put deadbolt locks on EVERY door and lock ourselves in the house just so I could go to the bathroom without losing this kid. How I got him to 8 years old still alive is a mystery to me!

You have to get a mental picture on what those years were like for me. I think you are picturing a peaceful, serene mom with her sweet little angels all lined up in a row, marching across the parking lot like a duck and ducklings.

NO! Not even close.

More like this "Hey, where do you think you are going? Robby, grab your sister, where's Gabriel, stop that, stop that, STOP that, GET OVER HERE, I said hold onto my hand, don't you even think about doing that, okay that's it, when we get home you are confined to your room, why do I do this to myself?"

I tried to shop on weekends or send my husband. They were challenging years. Looking back and reflecting on those years....I feel...very.....very....tired.

[melissel]

You'll tick people off if you leave your child in the car while you return the cart, and you'll tick others off for not doing so.

I don't leave the kids in the car to put the cart back unless I'm parked a step or two away. Who on earth cares whether you leave your cart in the parking lot? People are PAID to collect those carts and put them away. It's their job. My job is to protect my kids at all costs.

(Sorry, my ire is not directed at you. My mind is simply blown that people even care whether someone with kids in tow would return their cart or not!)

[Kelli in TN]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.


People did do that and I always appreciated it. I try do the same for others now that I am on the other side of that!

I don't begrudge anybody leaving their cart either. I just never felt good about doing it myself.

[JuJuBee]

Then the cart, the baby and other assorted little people all went to the cart bin where we left the cart. I slung the baby on my shoulder or hip (depending on whether it was a wee shoulder babe or big strappin' hip baby), lined up the assorted kids and made them all hold hands or hang onto some part of my anatomy, and returned to the van. Simple.

Kelli, I am not saying this to be argumentative, but in my opinion (and this isn't hypothetical -- I have six children, too) -- walking around a parking lot is more dangerous than sitting strapped in a carseat. Since 1994, 500 children have been killed in backover accidents. Most of these in their own driveway, but of course parking lots carry that risk as well. How many children have been killed in carjackings in that time? By cars spontaneously exploding?

I choose, purposefully, to minimize the amount of time my children spend in parking lots. I have 2 hands and five children. When we get to the car, they get in and buckle up. I lock the car and return the cart. However, I also make it a habit to park near a cart bin thing. I try to minimize risks, but hereagain there is no way to eliminate risk completely. This is what I do because it's what I am most comfortable with. You might be more comfortable taking yours with you and that is fine, too. All the risks we are talking about are low, but when you spread them over a large population like ours in the US, you will find isolated incidents of them occuring. It's sad, but you cannot eliminate these risks. While googling, I ran across a story of a woman whose child was shot during a carjacking while she was putting the child in his carseat. There is no way to eliminate all risk to yourself and your sweet babies. Sad, but true.

[melissel]

More like this "Hey, where do you think you are going? Robby, grab your sister, where's Gabriel, stop that, stop that, STOP that, GET OVER HERE, I said hold onto my hand, don't you even think about doing that, okay that's it, when we get home you are confined to your room, why do I do this to myself?"

ROFL! I have two and it's like that these days. I can't even imagine doing it with SIX!!!

[JuJuBee]

I can tell you right now, I would never begrude any woman or man with one child, much less 6!!!! who left a cart in the lot. In fact, if I were walking by you, I would stop and offer to take your cart for you.


You wouldn't believe how angry and ugly this discussion got! The "return the cart or else you are a bad person" contingent cited the damage that could be done to their cars if the cart ran into them/a wind blew them, people got in accidents because of errant carts, etc. Of course the other side was "my children are more important than your car" and they were accused of being helicopter moms, etc.

Anyway, it was a real eye-opener. Sometimes though I think people, especially in Internetland, just like to fight! LOL

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I am not saying this to be argumentative, but in my opinion (and this isn't hypothetical -- I have six children, too) -- walking around a parking lot is more dangerous than sitting strapped in a carseat. .

Since you addressed me personally I will just say this, I am not trying to be judgemental or inflammatory. I handled it the way I handled it when mine were young. You handle it the way you see best. It'll all be okay!

Unless someone asks me something specifically, I think I will leave this conversation alone now. It is an emotionally charged issue and I should be making supper right now anyway.

[GothicGyrl]

I honestly do not care if you don't return your cart to the corrale, but I do care if you leave the cart parked in the middle of a parking space and not up in between two parking spaces. You won't believe(maybe you might) how many parking spaces I've had to pass up---even in my tiny car-- because one person left a cart right in the middle of the space, and then another did and then another did and so on.

I so do not care whether you return it or not, just put it somewhere that doesn't block a space, that's all. Honestly. And I could say to those idiots who claim their car is more important than a kid--well, nevermind--it isn't nice.

[Scarlett]

Anyway, it was a real eye-opener. Sometimes though I think people, especially in Internetland, just like to fight! LOL
:iagree:

[Scarlett]

I honestly do not care if you don't return your cart to the corrale, but I do care if you leave the cart parked in the middle of a parking space and not up in between two parking spaces.

See here is where, when you kid gets to be 8, you have him hop out and move the cart. ;) Actually, I'm not sure I"ve ever done that, but I'm thinking about it.

[GothicGyrl]

See here is where, when you kid gets to be 8, you have him hop out and move the cart. ;) Actually, I'm not sure I"ve ever done that, but I'm thinking about it.
Oh I have done that, but mine are 12 and 16 ;) I've done it when she was 8. It's just a pain because I don't try to take the closest space, I just want to park. And I have to go even farther away now because someone just couldn't be bothered to not block parking spaces.

And this happens a lot at my walmart.

[JuJuBee]

Since you addressed me personally I will just say this, I am not trying to be judgemental or inflammatory. I handled it the way I handled it when mine were young. You handle it the way you see best. It'll all be okay!


Yep. ;) I knew you weren't trying to be judgmental, and I hope my tone was clear as well (nonjudgmental LOL). I just think we all think through these very small risks and reasonable people can come to different conclusions. It's subjective, and some of it is emotionally-driven and fear-based, and it can't be argued anyway.

[j.griff]

I am ROFLOL. Thank you for clarifying. I guess I am just VERY lazy, LOL. I would rather tick someone off and leave a cart in a parking space (but actually, I usually try to park next to the end of a row or next to a corral so that I know I'll be able to open our doors without worrying about banging someone else's car- people park way too close to our big old truck) than deal with all of that. Maybe I am just already burnt out, but I always seek the easiest way to do things. Maybe I'm just not a wonderful human being, LOL, but my priority is being as safe as possible and doing things as easily as possible. :o
I'm not picking on you either Kelli, just talking out loud, LOL. But for *me*, it's much safer to fasten those beasties into their seats first, than try to safely navigate them through a parking lot one more time. My two youngest (4 and 2) just LOVE to suddenly chase sea gulls and pigeons, LOL, among other manied and varied random pursuits.
We were at a park on Tuesday, and while we were headed back toward our truck, dd had rambled ahead slightly (I wasn't very concerned in this setting at the time, it wasn't heavily used, not a lot of vehicles, etc.) to put something down and then she came trotting back to where we were, but instead of sticking to the edge of the row she went diagonally across the lot just as another huge vehicle came through. The driver of that vehicle did NOT even slow down. They just turned the wheel to drive around her, but too fast for driving in a parking lot at all, IMO, let alone with an unpredictable 4yo trotting along. :mad: It was "my" fault though, because I should have enforced our parking lot rules even when there were no other vehicles, I was not being consistent, and DD ended up being put in danger due to my negligence.

For me, at this time in my life, my DC and Other People are both too unpredictable to add any extra amount of "risk".

[KarenNC]

JuJube, please note that the examples I gave were *not* "spontaneously exploding cars", they were instances where very young children (under the age of 5) left alone got out of their car seats and found a lighter , a car cigarette lighter, matches, etc (IIRC from other coverage, in the Conover case, it was a disposable lighter left by a previous passenger, no one in the family smoked and the mother didn't know the lighter was in the car) and played with them, thereby injuring or killing themselves and/or younger siblings. Others were playing with the power windows, accidentally setting the car in motion, etc. My point was that, contrary to a statement by a previous poster, it is *not* only "110 degrees or leaving them for hours" that endangers children.

When my daughter was young, I either parked next to the cart return (even if it was at the far end of the lot) or parked as close as possible then took her with me to return the cart then walked back. I also like to do that so that neither I nor my daughter are likely to hit another car when we open the door <g>. Yes, I only have one, so I can't speak to taking 6 at a time. If I pulled up to a pump to get gas with her in the car and the pay at the pump feature was not available, I either got back in the car and went to another station or I took her inside with me to pay (I still do so and she's 7).

I *do* have a problem with folks who leave their carts in the middle of the lot unsecured, because I think it is dangerous and inconsiderate in general (and I do offer to take someone's cart back for them if I am passing when they unload, whether they have kids or not). I take issue primarily, however, with those who choose to use the *handicapped* spaces as a cart return. I end up moving carts from handicapped spaces at least once or twice a week. Perhaps some of these were ones that were left in other areas that rolled, but I have literally watched people push their cart three spaces to deliberately put the cart in the handicapped spot *when the cart return was the exact same distance from the person's car as the handicapped space*.

[nestof3]

I park far away from others' cars because I don't want anyone slamming their doors into my brand new Honda Odyssey, and I don't want a cart slamming into it. I also don't mind the walk -- I have never been one to drive around looking for a closer spot.

I return my cart to the cart return -- while my kids are buckled in their seats. I will continue to do this regardless of any news I read. I am not putting them at any risk greater than the risk we all take on when we go to a store together or sit in a van together.

My boys are buckled in my van while I do this. They do not climb out of their seats. We don't have lighters in the van. No one rides in our van who smokes. We don't even have any friends who smoke (now there's child endangerment!). They have books, activity books and audio books to do in the van. My boys have been trained to buckle immediately upon entering the van and not to unbuckle and get out until the van has come to a complete stop and I remove the keys.

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

These are my parameters. Yours may be different. So what!

[j.griff]

Kelli,
I just read your post below, and just wanted to say that I don't want you to feel obligated to reply to my post :)
and also that I'm not trying to debate anything here, I was just making some personal observations about myself, and don't expect other people to come to the same conclusions that I have.

[JuJuBee]

JuJube, please note that the examples I gave were *not* "spontaneously exploding cars", they were instances where very young children (under the age of 5) left alone got out of their car seats and found a lighter , a car cigarette lighter, matches, etc (IIRC from other coverage, in the Conover case, it was a disposable lighter left by a previous passenger, no one in the family smoked and the mother didn't know the lighter was in the car) and played with them, thereby injuring or killing themselves and/or younger siblings. Others were playing with the power windows, accidentally setting the car in motion, etc. My point was that, contrary to a statement by a previous poster, it is *not* only "110 degrees or leaving them for hours" that endangers children.


Sorry I didn't read more carefully. I stand corrected.

But I still think the scenario of "passenger leaves unnoticed lighter which is found by 3 year old and lit and starts fire" is probably about as rare as a spontaneous explosion caused by, say, someone having a small gas leak and a careless smoker throwing a lit butt on the groud nearby. Freak things can happen anywhere. If the mother slipped while carrying the baby and the baby fell and died, that is a statistical possibility which would have not happened if the mother had run in and left the baby in the car, kwim?

This is an interesting table which I think puts some perspective on the risks we're talking about. link (http://volokh.com/posts/1205343824.shtml)

Accidental Death Dangers for Young Children (Age 1 to 7):
A discussion with some parents led me to look into this, using the CDC's invaluable WISQARS application (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html). I looked at accidental death dangers for young children, age 1 to 7, over the span 2001 to 2005; do not assume that this extrapolates well to older children, but run your own queries instead. Here are the results: Cause of accidental deathRate per 100,000 children age 1 to 7Drowning2.0Car accident, child passenger in car1.3 to 2.2Hit by car while walking1.3Fire (not including house fire)1.2House fire1.1Suffocation0.6Fall0.2Bicycle0.1Poison0.1"Unintentional struck by or against"0.1Firearm0.1
If you want to figure out the total numbers per year, multiply each number by 250 (since there are roughly 25 million children age 1 to 7 in the country).

1.3 times 250 is 325.

From this site, I found per-year rates of accidental in-and-around car deaths (not driving accidents)...
http://www.usa.safekids.org/tier3_cd_2c.cfm?content_item_id=25251&folder_id=540

78 deaths total (i.e., far less than the number of pedestrian children hit by cars)

34% from hyperthermia
27% backed over
13% children put car in gear
17% other
and
9% trunk entrapment

So the 'other' would cover spontaneous explosions and such. ;) That would be 13% of 78 or... scratch scratch... figure figure... about 10. 10 children killed from 'other' car-related accidents, and about 300 children pedestrians killed.

I'm not trying to be a priss, I really do think these types of analyses are interesting. It does look to me like, all things being equal, it may be safer to be in a child in the car than a child walking amongst moving cars, but that's only if my math is good LOL Of course this doesn't say how often children are walking amongst cars v. how often they are in carseats of locked vehicles, so the comparison isn't perfect. Which just brings us back to the "everyone makes the decision they feel is best and we all pray that our children are safe" business. :)

My boys are buckled in my van while I do this. They do not climb out of their seats. We don't have lighters in the van. No one rides in our van who smokes. We don't even have any friends who smoke (now there's child endangerment!). They have books, activity books and audio books to do in the van. My boys have been trained to buckle immediately upon entering the van and not to unbuckle and get out until the van has come to a complete stop and I remove the keys.

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

These are my parameters

And by the way, Dawn? These are pretty much exactly my parameters, right down to not leaving my side in the store.

[KarenNC]

When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? :001_rolleyes: I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

I see that your youngest is 6. If the car is in my driveway at my (much safer than previous neighborhood) house, then I will leave her in the car while I run inside for a second (or send her out to get in the car on her own) now that she's 7. But I wouldn't have done so when she was 2 or 3, no, nor do I leave her in a car alone out in a public parking lot even at this age.

[GothicGyrl]

I will drop movies in the drop slot and return library materials in the drop slot while my boys are buckled in the van. When I buckle my boys up and realize I've left a coupon in the house, I leave them in the van to get the coupon. SHOCKING isn't it? I'm sure all you other fabulous moms would unbuckle the crew to go fetch the coupon.

I have never gone in a store when my boys were left in the van. I hold their hands when we walk through a parking lot. I do not let them ride bikes in the street unless an adult is watching. I do not let them play in the front yard. They are not allowed to roam around the neighborhood. I do not let them wander around a store by themselves. I would not send them to a bus stop and hours later hope they return. I've never left my children at a daycare facility.

And just to throw a wrench in this, on my side--using her parameters---I am almost the opposite depending on age and situation.

I HAVE done:

--Left kids in car while I dropped tapes in a drop box--though they were older, never at age 2. At that age, it was fun for her to be able to do it and most of the time, I didn't use the drop box anyway because I was in the habit of returning and re-checking out, so she came in the store with me anyway.

--I've run back in to the house while kids sat in car waiting. But remember, I've got kids 4 years apart, so I've always had a much older child sitting with a younger one.

--I have allowed them to fetch things around the store, unsupervised. However, this was something that has just recently been started, the 12 year old is only just now allowed to do this, the 16 year old has been doing it since she was around 12. They don't "wander around", they've usually received an order to fetch something and they do and return quickly.

--While I've never left them at a bus stop alone, I have had them in Daycare (which I fail to see why a daycare situation is a bad thing in relation to this, some of us needed that help at that time, you know).

--And I do let them play outside, unsupervised on a regular basis. I even let them go inside neighbor's homes to play. Mind you, this is just a recent occurence. I've never lived anywhere that was as safe as I am living now, nor have I lived anywhere this was possible--until now. And by unsafe, I'm talking that I just moved from a bonafide ghetto--daily drive by shootings, where only our fenced in 16ft by 18 ft backyard (that was fully enclosed with an 8 ft fence and surrounded by other fenced in yards--we lived in a townhome) was safe. And even then, had I not a pit bull, I might have lost one of my girls due to a criminal running through an unfenced, non-townhome yard, to my fenced in yard (he hopped over everyone's fences to get away) and he was armed.

--I even allow my daughter to walk to the mail box, alone and unsupervised (and it is 2-3/10ths of a mile away). The 12 year old, however, has not.

I have NOT done:
--Left my children alone for any length of time in a car. Running in to a 7-11 with kids at my current ages, yes. But not at 2, 4, 6, or even 8. But I'd be less likely to say anything to an 8 year old being left, than I would about a 2,4, or 6. Pumping gas and running inside while the 16 yr old pumps and the 12 yr old sits in the car, yep. But not at an age younger than 10.

So no, I am not a fabulous mom by any means and I never claimed as much. I simply said I would never and have never left a child under the age of 10, alone in a car at all ever.

[StaceyinLA]

I managed to make it through reading all 16 pages of responses to this (I can't believe I did it), and I am just stunned at this discussion. However, I never really felt the need to respond until this last post.

You have a PIT BULL???

[nestof3]

I see that your youngest is 6. If the car is in my driveway at my (much safer than previous neighborhood) house, then I will leave her in the car while I run inside for a second (or send her out to get in the car on her own) now that she's 7. But I wouldn't have done so when she was 2 or 3, no, nor do I leave her in a car alone out in a public parking lot even at this age.

No, I don't leave my boys in the van in a public parking space except when returning a cart. I am much more worried about someone stalking us and hiding around our van to jump in than someone abducting my children when in a locked van for the few seconds it takes me to run my cart to the cart return. Once they are buckled up and the doors are locked, when I return to the van, I look around to make sure no one is waiting to jump in. In fact, with my keys, I only press the button once and only my side unlocks. I love this feature. It prevents someone from jumping in the passenger side.

I have no problems leaving them in the van in the driveway or sending them out ahead of me from the house to get in (I open the doors with the key buttons). I see this as no more dangerous than letting them play outside for a few minutes without me watching. My boys don't EVER fiddle with anything in the van, and the chance of someone breaking into my van is the same as someone breaking into my house. I am actually more concerned about my house. I keep the doors locked during the day (and of course at night).

My boys would not have even been able to undo the car seatbelts we had when they were two, so I don't see the danger there either. My driveway is as safe as my house as far as I am concerned.

And when I say boys, I am referring to my 6 and 8 year olds -- not our son who will turn 18 next month. Obviously if he can drive, he can stay in a van by himself. LOL

And, yes -- we have a 9 year difference between our two older sons, but our oldest was not ALWAYS with us, so there were times I would abandon the younger in such a vulnerable state while I ran back in the house. I'm still finding this hilarious that some find this troublesome. It has actually become rather amusing to me.

Oh, and someone said that a parent should be charged with child endangerment if the child were to escape from the house while everyone was sleeping. Good grief -- if we are supposed to have perfect control over our children while we sleep, I am ready to just throw in the towel and admit I am perfectly unfit for parenting.

And the reason I mentioned the day-care thing was because I am more concerned about leaving a child who cannot defend himself or speak for himself with someone I don't really know than I am of leaving them in the van for a minute. Far more children are sexually abused than are injured in a car they were left in for a minute. I never said anyone else shouldn't use a day care facility, I just said it was outside of my comfort zone.

BTW -- I was driving to the store today and saw a boy who appeared to be 5 or 6 riding his bike alone down a very busy residential cut-through street. I also saw a girl who appeared to be 5 riding with another child who appeared to be 7 -- on the same street. I find that way out of my comfort zone, because not only would I have to trust that my child could look for oncoming traffic and backing out traffic, but I would also have to trust that the drivers would be paying attention (not yapping on the cell phone, not changing radio stations). I bet, though, that if a police officer had seen that, nothing would have been done. I'm sure there's no law against it, but I personally feel 5 year olds are not old enough for that. What does it matter what I think? Well, it may matter little to anyone else, but quite frankly, that is what determines how I parent my children.

[j.griff]

Oh, and someone said that a parent should be charged with child endangerment if the child were to escape from the house while everyone was sleeping. Good grief -- if we are supposed to have perfect control over our children while we sleep, I am ready to just throw in the towel and admit I am perfectly unfit for parenting.


You totally misunderstood my post. I did not say that a parent Should be charged if the child escapes from their home, I said that my friend almost Was charged for it, and was implying that it is possible to Be charged for such a situation. This does not mean I agree with it (which I also stated in the post you are referring to, but I guess lots of times we only skim things or automatically read an opinion that's just Not there when we disagree with some of the info posted). It just IS. Fact is, parents are responsible for their kids 24/7, and IF anything happens, or IF we make a poor choice and somehow get "caught" doing it, then we may have to "pay the piper". That's all. Laws are. AFAIK, there's usually really no doing away with them once they are in effect, so we have to abide by them as best as we can. I hope that's clear enough :)
(couldn't use more smilies cause I used italics)

[Kelli in TN]

- not our son who will turn 18 next month. Obviously if he can drive, he can stay in a van by himself. LOL

.

Oh, I don't know. I don't really like to leave my 17 dd alone in the van when I go into stores.





She thinks it is funny to move the van while I shop. :auto:




Those dreadful children just love to watch Mom walk around pushing her cart in a confused state.

[GothicGyrl]

I managed to make it through reading all 16 pages of responses to this (I can't believe I did it), and I am just stunned at this discussion. However, I never really felt the need to respond until this last post.

You have a PIT BULL???
Yes I do and I love him to pieces. He's the best dog I've ever owned.

As a side note, you don't have to wade through 16 pages dear--just go to your USER CP and set the number of posts per page at its highest count. Right now, this thread is on page 4 for me. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh, I don't know. I don't really like to leave my 17 dd alone in the van when I go into stores.

She thinks it is funny to move the van while I shop. :auto:

Those dreadful children just love to watch Mom walk around pushing her cart in a confused state.

LOL! I think I like your daughter!:confused::smilielol5: