s/o how many AP courses in high school?

[swimmermom3]

My dd and my niece have been talking about the number of AP courses classmates are taking as juniors and seniors. My dh and I were bit stunned to hear that 3-5 AP courses seemed to be about average.

So our question is: what's changed? When we were in high school in the dark ages, the kids at the top of the class took 1-2 AP courses each year. I was in the States at a small private school and my dh was overseas at an International school with the scary-bright people.

Is it just that there are more AP options now? Also, the kids that we know that are taking full loads of AP courses are bright kids but there are no rocket scientists. Kwim? So, are the courses easier than the old days, are the kids smarter? Any thoughts?

[Jane in NC]

Many of the motivated kids take at least 3 APs, but whether this is "average" is questionable since it seems that in my part of the world many students take fewer.

Statistics have not been available for my county system for a while, but several years ago it was revealed that not all students who take an AP course take the related exam. And, of course, of those taking the exam, not all will earn what is considered a "passing" score, a 3 or better. (I'm really having trouble with this concept of a "passing" score since so many colleges don't give credit for 3's anymore.)

Anyhow, I do think that students who wish to gain acceptance into competitive colleges need to demonstrate an ability to do challenging work. Certainly AP presents one option for doing do. It is the option of choice for many students in traditional high schools.

Are kids today smarter? Oh don't get me started...

[swimmermom3]

Many of the motivated kids take at least 3 APs, but whether this is "average" is questionable since it seems that in my part of the world many students take fewer.

Statistics have not been available for my county system for a while, but several years ago it was revealed that not all students who take an AP course take the related exam. And, of course, of those taking the exam, not all will earn what is considered a "passing" score, a 3 or better. (I'm really having trouble with this concept of a "passing" score since so many colleges don't give credit for 3's anymore.)

Anyhow, I do think that students who wish to gain acceptance into competitive colleges need to demonstrate an ability to do challenging work. Certainly AP presents one option for doing do. It is the option of choice for many students in traditional high schools.

Are kids today smarter? Oh don't get me started...

I know that the kids who want to get into competitive colleges need the AP courses. Somehow, I feel underneath it all, there is another driving factor.

My niece is taking AP courses in English, Algebra, and a science. She was disappointed that she had not signed up for AP Government. If I understand her frustration as she explained it to me, there is now a huge gap between a standard class and an AP class. I thought her analogy of "the rich, the poor, and nothing in between" was an interesting one. Our high school encourages most of the juniors and seniors to take numerous AP classes. They tell the kids that it is better to have a "B" in the AP course than an "A" in a standard course. My niece's question was, "Where do the normal kids go?" She said that the non-AP Government course was neither challenging nor stimulating.

So, if you are remotely bright and you don't want to sit in a bone-head class, you take AP? Is this really how it works now?

[Gwen in VA]

One reason so many students are taking more AP's -- they are required!

In our school district, most sophomores (~70% of the entire sophomore class of all three high schools) are required to take AP Human Geography. The only history classes available to juniors and seniors are AP, so if you want to take a history class junior or senior year, you WILL take an AP history!

One other thought -- the college applicant pool is much larger than it was 20 years ago, but the number of "name" schools hasn't increased much if any. So college entrance to "good' schools is much much more competitive than it was 20 years ago. Therefore schools (and parents) (and students) are pushing kids to take more and more AP's as a way to be competitive in the college market.

One last thought -- high schools are now being ranked, and one component of the ranking system is how many AP classes they offer. Another component of the ranking is what percentage of students are taking AP classes. So the schools themselves may be helping the AP push. I agree with your niece, Lisa -- what about the good students who just aren't ready to take a college-level class in high school?

[swimmermom3]

One reason so many students are taking more AP's -- they are required!

In our school district, most sophomores (~70% of the entire sophomore class of all three high schools) are required to take AP Human Geography. The only history classes available to juniors and seniors are AP, so if you want to take a history class junior or senior year, you WILL take an AP history!

One other thought -- the college applicant pool is much larger than it was 20 years ago, but the number of "name" schools hasn't increased much if any. So college entrance to "good' schools is much much more competitive than it was 20 years ago. Therefore schools (and parents) (and students) are pushing kids to take more and more AP's as a way to be competitive in the college market.

One last thought -- high schools are now being ranked, and one component of the ranking system is how many AP classes they offer. Another component of the ranking is what percentage of students are taking AP classes. So the schools themselves may be helping the AP push. I agree with your niece, Lisa -- what about the good students who just aren't ready to take a college-level class in high school?

Gwen, thank you for providing some valuable insights, especially about the increased number of college applicants. What is the district's reasoning for having 70% of their sophomores take the AP Human Geography course? Does this mean that 70% of the sophomores are capable of doing the coursework and doing it well? Are regular history courses not available for juniors and seniors because history is not part of the requirements for graduation at that point (they only need 2 history credits)? So there is no demand.

[Jane in NC]

I know that the kids who want to get into competitive colleges need the AP courses. Somehow, I feel underneath it all, there is another driving factor.

My niece is taking AP courses in English, Algebra, and a science. She was disappointed that she had not signed up for AP Government. If I understand her frustration as she explained it to me, there is now a huge gap between a standard class and an AP class. I thought her analogy of "the rich, the poor, and nothing in between" was an interesting one. Our high school encourages most of the juniors and seniors to take numerous AP classes. They tell the kids that it is better to have a "B" in the AP course than an "A" in a standard course. My niece's question was, "Where do the normal kids go?" She said that the non-AP Government course was neither challenging nor stimulating.

So, if you are remotely bright and you don't want to sit in a bone-head class, you take AP? Is this really how it works now?

Note: there is no such thing as AP Algebra. Some of my sons friends have called some of their courses "Pre-AP" but this is not a label sanctioned by the College Board.

It is my understanding that some schools give students the option of taking the AP exam or having "honors" (as opposed to AP) on their transcripts. Of course, different systems have different policies, but this does suggest that AP may be the only game in town at many schools.

I think that Gwen is right about high school ranking playing into all of this. It does give one pause. For example, a student may excel in math and science and want to take APs in those subjects. But this does not mean that he should be in a low level English course. He still needs to do preparatory work for college and may just want to do high school level work in high school!

[swimmermom3]

I think that Gwen is right about high school ranking playing into all of this. It does give one pause. For example, a student may excel in math and science and want to take APs in those subjects. But this does not mean that he should be in a low level English course. He still needs to do preparatory work for college and may just want to do high school level work in high school!

Thanks Jane for the info on Algebra. I'm not sure of the exact name of the classes she's taking. I just know that she is taking three and one of them is in math. I assumed Algebra 2 would be the logical step. Oops!

I am behind in looking at the AP issue. I have been so wrapped up in getting a handle on homeschooling with the younger two and my dd's depression that I have barely looked at the college requirements. I am feeling overwhelmed with the AP information.

Your comment with regards to the low level English course is exactly where my dd is at. She is taking AP European History but wasn't sure about adding anymore AP classes because there are some days that being at school is overwhelming for her. However, she finds herself in Contemporary Literature. They are reading 2 books this year: Tuesday with Morrie and Into the Wild. They will have lit circles, community building and personal literacy, and a career unit. Challenging, I'm sure.:tongue_smilie: She is reading the same books as her friends in the AP Lit class and discussing it with them to keep herself motivated.

[FloridaLisa]

I think it's driven by two things: the primary push (in our area at least) is by the schools. Schools get more money for the AP classes. Some districts can handle it; some can't. Some have enough good teachers and a large pool of bright students, but some don't. AP is pushed regardless. The stats from one school district in my area shows that many of the kids enrolled in AP classes failed their FCAT (state test) reading! So, no, the push is not because kids are magically smarter these days.

The second engine driving the AP craze are the colleges. Our flagship state university makes no bones in its admissions rounds through the state that they want to see as many APs (or IBs or AICEs) as possible. IIRC, the admissions director stated that ideally, he'd like to see a student with all APs in his/her senior year.

Lisa

[swimmermom3]

I think it's driven by two things: the primary push (in our area at least) is by the schools. Schools get more money for the AP classes. Some districts can handle it; some can't. Some have enough good teachers and a large pool of bright students, but some don't. AP is pushed regardless. The stats from one school district in my area shows that many of the kids enrolled in AP classes failed their FCAT (state test) reading! So, no, the push is not because kids are magically smarter these days.

The second engine driving the AP craze are the colleges. Our flagship state university makes no bones in its admissions rounds through the state that they want to see as many APs (or IBs or AICEs) as possible. IIRC, the admissions director stated that ideally, he'd like to see a student with all APs in his/her senior year.

Lisa

I will pick my chin up off the floor now. I am not sure how to even begin to address the thinking behind some of this. My dcs' high school, the one I referenced above, was down-graded from strong to satisfactory two years ago because 48% of the sophomores failed the state math test. Yet, they want everyone to take AP classes. I'd say I am beginning to see the light, but I think it is an on-coming train.

[SW in IL]

When I was in high school, you had to meet fairly strict minimum requirements to take AP/Honors (same class, different label - not sure when the labels changed) classes. You had to get an "A" in the regular level freshman and sophomore classes, you had to have a 3.0 grade point average, you had to have something like a 99% attendance rate, etc. But most importantly, you had to be recommended for the class by your teacher. Sure you heard about the occasional kid who asked to be recommended for Honors History (for example), but most kids actually tried NOT to get into those classes because of how hard they were -- not to mention that they only accepted 10 kids per course per semester and few really wanted to stand out. Plus there was a maximum of, I think, 2 Honors classes allowed per student. It might have been just one because it was so rigorous.

Now, the same high school has 2 levels of classes. AP and remedial. If you pass the regular level freshman and sophomore classes, you're automatically in AP classes your junior and senior year. From what I've seen (when my daughter went there a few years ago) the "AP" classes are pretty much the same as the regular classes when I went to school there.

If you ask me, they're not doing these kids any favors by labeling regular classes as being AP. I read somewhere that the average ACT score earned by students at the local PS have actually gone down since I attended school there. When I went to high school, the "smart" kids (those in Honors classes) earned an average of 33 on their ACT tests; kids in regular classes had an average ACT score of right around 30; a friend of mine, who was in special ed, earned a 24 on the ACT -- all this back in the 1980's. A friend's son, who was in AP classes, earned a 27 on the ACT last year which was slightly higher than average for his class. And back some years ago when my daughter was considering taking the ACT, I read that the test had been (or was going to be?) significantly changed (made easier) to reflect the changing economy... or something like that. So, the test is easier and kids are scoring lower and most everyone is taking AP classes... <shaking my head>

And this is supposed to prepare them for college how?

Sue

[Piano&ViolinMom]

My dcs' high school, the one I referenced above, was down-graded from strong to satisfactory two years ago because 48% of the sophomores failed the state math test. Yet, they want everyone to take AP classes.
Is that Really True? Just hard to believe.

[swimmermom3]

Is that Really True? Just hard to believe.

Here is a link (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/oregon_middle_schools_make_big.html) to the Oregon's latest school report. Half way down, the article addresses the "sophomore slump".
Our school had 63% of the sophomores meet the state benchmark this year, so that's an improvement.