Should dd repeat Algebra 1? opinions please

[SS in MD]

Last year (7th grade) dd used Lial's Introductory Algebra. It was quite a jump in work load, and she is now on the last chapter. Though she is good in math, she continues to make silly errors (i.e not changing the sign of a number when it's moved to the other side of the equation, subtracting two negative numbers etc) while she doesn't make these errors all the time they are often. This year (8th grade) I've already bought Chalkdust Geometry. But now I am having second thoughts of using it. Perhaps (since dd is ahead in math) we should spend the first part of this year reviewing Algebra 1 till she had it down pat?? before moving onto Geometry? How does this sound?? Or should I not be concerned about her errors? She is on the local homeschool MathCounts team and does have a head for math (she may not be the fastest, but can come up with the right answer), but I am concerned that she isn't mature enough to handle all the proofs/logic of geometry, along with the silly errors she frequently makes. Any suggestions here?? She is our oldest, so this is unchartered territory for us! LOL!

If we did spend some of 8th grade reviewing algebra, any suggestions on a good Algebra 1 book for review? (I'd like one with a full solutions manual)
I was thinking dd could first take the chapter tests, if she does weill (95% or better) she can move on to the next chapter test, if not she reviews that chapter. - how does this sound?

Also, a friend of mine who has two older kids in high school highly recommended doing Alg 1, Alg 2, then geometry, pre-calc, calc. She said her kids did much better when alg 2 followed alg 1 and did much better in geometry when they were more mature and able to think more logically. What do you all think??? help!

Thanks so much for reading this post and any advice you can give would be very helpful!

[MyThreeSons]

I'd much rather see a student -- especially one so young -- get a good grasp on Algebra 1 before moving on. A couple of suggestions for the Algebra:

The Jacobs text presents many concepts in a different way; maybe seeing them approached from a different angle might help cement the process.

The Key to Algebra series of workbooks provides extensive practice in specific concepts. If you go to the publisher's website, http://www.keypress.com/x22311.xml, you can sign up for the Key to Tracker ($5.95 per student per year), which guides the student thru the particular pages that she needs. If she aces a booklet's pretest, she may be guided to the next booklet. If she shows she needs work, it will tell her specifically which pages to work on, then have her take a spot quiz to see how she's doing. As the teacher, you will be able to access the record book of which charts her progress.

The gal who teaches the other math classes at our co-op (and at our community college) suggests that students do the more traditional Alg1, Geo, Alg2 sequence if they're going to go on to pre-calc, etc. Her reasoning is that Geo students will use quite a bit of Alg1, so they're ready to go into Alg2, especially since the Alg2 texts have some Alg1 review in the beginning. And pre-calc right after Alg2 means that the Alg2 is fairly fresh. If they do Alg2 before Geo, that's a whole year off without doing the more advanced Alg concepts, which makes it tougher to jump into pre-calc.

One other suggestion re this comment:

she continues to make silly errors (i.e not changing the sign of a number when it's moved to the other side of the equation,

She really ought to get in the habit now of writing out the solutions step by step. And she ought to be thinking mathematically correctly as she works: she isn't "changing the sign of a number when it's moved to the other side of the equation"; she is "adding the opposite of a number to both sides of the equation", or even "subtracting the same number from both sides of the equation". The chief rule of Algebra is that whatever you do to one side of the equation, you must do to the other side. If she's thinking she's moving something from one side to the other, she's not keeping that important principle in mind, and it will likely lead to other errors.

HTH

[Martha in GA]

My dd did Alg. I in 7th last school year. While I thought she did fine, she seemed to be feeling a bit unsure about her grasp of Algebra. So, this year, I am having her work through Life of Fred Beginning Algebra alongside Geometry. LOF only has 108 lessons, and they don't take long to complete (especially since she has already had Algebra I). I think this will be fairly painless for her. She says she is enjoying the storyline, which I was a little afraid she would not like. Hope that helps.

Martha

[Sue in St Pete]

I am using Foerster's Algebra this year with my 8th grade ds. Last year, we used MUS + LoF Algebra. While he is good in math, I just felt that the hormones got in the way of real understanding last year. He is doing very, very well this time around. I like Foerster's because it is presented very clearly and takes the student step-by-step through proofs and word problems. There are enough new topics in the 2nd half of the book that I don't feel that we are just repeating what has already been covered.

HTH!

[SS in MD]

Thank you all for the posts!

I've been looking at LOF w/home companion- do you think it's a good all-around Algebra course? Or does it need to be supplemented?

Laura - thanks for the suggestion of using Key to Algebra - had forgotten all about that series. I didn't know it has "Key To Tracker" - great. Do you think Key to.. is thorough enough (deep enough) or should I go with a traditional text like Jacobs? Also, does Jacobs Algebra contain worked out solutions?? or just the answers? I I read somewhere it only had answers (I really need worked out solutions)! LOL!

Also, about dd writing the answers step-by-step. I tell her to do this, but I think to save time (or b/c she says she knows it), she doesn't write it all out - I'm thinking of having her re-do all those problems that doesn't write step by step- do you think this is unreasonable??

Thanks also for the tip on reminding her the "chief rule of Algebra is that whatever you do to one side of the equation, you must do to the other side." - Very VERY good idea!!

Sue - Thanks for the Foerester's suggestion. I went to the link in you sig; is there also a seperate solutions manual??? Or does the text contain the solutions?? Is so, are the solutions worked out?

Thank you all for your help!!

Also, dd did SM 2-6, maybe we should try NEM or DM (discovering Math -their new series)... it includes Algebra & Geometry? -

[Sue in St Pete]

I've been looking at LOF w/home companion- do you think it's a good all-around Algebra course? Or does it need to be supplemented?

I consider it a challenging course without need for supplementation unless your student needs more practice (mine did). While LoF is humorous and different, it did not fit my student's learning style well.


Sue - Thanks for the Foerester's suggestion. I went to the link in you sig; is there also a seperate solutions manual??? Or does the text contain the solutions?? Is so, are the solutions worked out?
Prentice Hall sells a solutions manual for Foerster's. Mine is on back-order. :crying:

[MyThreeSons]

Laura - thanks for the suggestion of using Key to Algebra - had forgotten all about that series. I didn't know it has "Key To Tracker" - great. Do you think Key to.. is thorough enough (deep enough) or should I go with a traditional text like Jacobs? Also, does Jacobs Algebra contain worked out solutions?? or just the answers? I I read somewhere it only had answers (I really need worked out solutions)! LOL!

Also, about dd writing the answers step-by-step. I tell her to do this, but I think to save time (or b/c she says she knows it), she doesn't write it all out - I'm thinking of having her re-do all those problems that doesn't write step by step- do you think this is unreasonable??


Key to Algebra isn't complete by itself, but if she's already done a full text and needs to firm up some concepts, the workbooks coupled with the Tracker software would be a good way to go, I think.

I'd have her re-write any problems she missed, showing her step by step work, so that she can find where she made her mistakes. I've been known to use a stopwatch to show my students how truly little time it takes to write out the steps.

HTH

[Jann in TX]

The types of errors you mentioned are maturity issues.

The problems selected in Algebra 1 are usually ones that the student can easily do in their head. This way they can CHECK the logic they used when they worked the problem out using 'mathematical' steps.

In my town it is VERY common for 7th or 8th grade students to repeat Algebra 1--especially if they scored less than 90% routinely. This gives them time to mature and will take a TREMENDOUS amount of pressure off of them when they attempt uppper high school/college maths (especially Pre-Calc)... that extra year really makes a difference maturity wise!

Others have suggested good programs to try. Often the student feels better about it if they use a different text. You used a good program--so you have lots of choices that should be 'comfortable' for her (not too many new concepts--but just different presentations). Also if the new program shows a different way of working a problem type and she prefers another method she learned (like with Lial) then let her use the method that works for her. I really like the way Lial teaches word problems--that box makes a huge difference...

Programs to consider:
Jacobs, Foerster, Larson (Chalkdust--remember you can get this program through the publisher very inexpensively), Life of Fred (if she likes the strange format she may learn alot!). My pick of these would probably be the Larson text with the Dr Mosley videos.

[AngieW in Texas]

I like Jacobs Algebra, but I like Kinetic Books Algebra I even better. The best thing about Kinetic Books is the immediate feedback. Also, many of the practice problems have stepped help. Instead of just showing the solution, it forces your dc to work through the problem step-by-step, checking what they've done on each step.

Kinetic Books doesn't have a solution manual, so that may be a deal-breaker for you. Most of the problems are done on the computer with immediate feedback, but the end-of-unit problems are done with pencil&paper. The answers are supplied only for the odd-numbered end-of-unit problems. I usually assigned all the odds, but sometimes assigned every-other-odd.

They have their algebra programs on sale until the end of September. A one-year subscription to Algebra I is $34.95. A cd-rom that won't time out (but is only for a single user) is $39.95.

www.kineticbooks.com

[SS in MD]

Jann-

Thanks for your post. I had a few more follow-up questions -

1) I do believe in my gut dd should repeat/review Alg 1. Do you think my idea of her first taking the chapter test, and if she scores 95% or better, skip to the next chapter test is a good way to go? OR would you recommend dd taking an entire year to repeat Alg 1? Or move quickly through only repeating chapters she doesn't score 95 or better?? I was thinking of doing that and then moving onto Geometry. What do you think???

2) Can you tell me how I can purchase Chalkdust thru' the publisher? Do you possibly have any isbn #'s?

3) LOF is appealing b/c my younger dd used LOF decimals/percents along with SM 5a/5b and LOVED the format. So, it's an appealing choice, but I wonder if it has enough problems for review if dd needs to go over a particular chaper. The webiste didn't have too many sample pages.

4) The other programs you suggested, do they all have worked out solutions? I thought Jacobs did not.

5) IYHO is Alg 1, Geom, Alg 2, Pre-Calc, Calc the proper hs sequence?

I very much appreciate your help & advice and taking the time to post.

Thanks SO much,
Sangita
dd(13),dd(11),dd(8),ds(5)

[Ruth in Canada]

DD finished algebra I in grade 7, and did geometry in grade 8. Geometry (Jacobs) actually went fine, even though she probably didn't have algebra I as well under her belt as she should have. Algebra II was more challenging, so I was glad we had a year of geometry in between to give her brain a bit more time to mature. In retrospect, we probably should have taken more time at algebra II. So--I personally vote for alg I-geometry-alg II for a young student, but that's based on a sample of 1 student. (Jacobs Geometry has algebra I review built in, so there is an ongoing opportunity to cement the alg. I skills.)

Continuing the story--we're going to take two years to do pre-calc--she only got half way through the book last year. The bottom line is that her brain just wasn't able to move through pre-calc quickly last year. She has consistently made progress, however, and seems to have finally clicked on trig, so perhaps her brain has caught up. Given my experience, if you do go on to geometry this year, you still may have to slow down at some point in the future.

DS (kid #2) has just whipped through algebra I (in grade 7) with no need to backtrack, so we may be dealing with a different situation with him. We'll move on to geometry. He is also making errors, but they are usually because he doesn't write out and then check his answers. I don't think he needs more practice with the concepts--I think he needs problems that are hard enough that he doesn't attempt to do them in his head. I probably need to give him some kind of reward for fully writing out his solution. (Maybe fewer problems if he writes them out.) We'll just play it by ear and slow down when it's clear he's not getting the concepts. I'm prepared to take a year and a half or two years on algebra II if needed.

Oh--Jacobs has some solutions in the back of the book and some in the teacher's manual. I don't think they are "worked out"--but that didn't really bother us.

[Jann in TX]

1. The method of review is up to you---you know how much she retained of each concept--I would not rush things--but let her go at her own pace so she is not bored. I prefer to use chapter reviews instead of chapter tests when it comes to diagnosing a student's ability.

2. Search some recent posts on the Larson texts and Chalkdust. They will list the isbns--you should be able to get everything for around $100 or less (text, solutions manual and video lessons). It would probably help your dd to see a teacher working out the problems step by step.

3. I believe that the LOF series has an extra workbook that has supplemental problems. Since your dd is going through this as a 'review' the LOF text may have enough problems for her. Keep the Lial text handy as a reference--incase you need additional problems for her to work.

4. I know there are solutions to some of the Jacobs texts...

5. I prefer A1, Geom, A2 then Pre-Calc. Geometry will not review any of the Algebra 2 concepts--and most Pre-Calc text will offer little if any review... Back in the dark ages I took A1, A2 then Geometry... I had to drop Pre-Calc because I had forgotten my Algebra 2...(I did meet my dh in the class so it was not a total waste!). I had to review on my own before I could start back up with higher math courses.


Jann

[SS in MD]

Jann,

Thanks for your advice it was very helpful!

Thanks also for giving me your preferred sequence - what you said makes sense... especially for dd is planning on going on to pre-calc, trig & calculus.

Though Jacobs is a popular choice I decided not to use it, b/c it only has answers to problems not worked out solutions.

I've been searching for CD Alg 1 through the boards for the isbn numbers. One poster gave me the isbn numbers for a combined text (Alg 1 & Alg II along with DVDs). I may go this route. I'm still considering LOF beginning Alg w/Companion, but wonder if she has stumbling blocks will there be enough problems for practice?

Thanks for your advice!
Sangita
dd(13),dd(11),dd(8),ds(5)

[Pamela H in Texas]

JMO, but if you're asking if she should repeat Algebra I, she probably should.

We use two programs so naturally "repeat" anyway, but...

I'm fussing with deciding whether to get Geom or Algebra II for ds. I'm thinking Geometry makes more sense, but I'm open to opinions.

[Susan C.]

My son had a rough time in Algebra 1. We moved on to geometry, it went fine. Of course, then we paid big time in Algebra 2.....did that twice, each with a different curriculum. But, he always did better in geometry and trig. than in algebra.