Charlotte Mason-minded people - Reassure me, please.

[MelissaMinNC]

Indulge me for just a second, please - trying to sort out what to teach, what to let go, and to separate the necessary and good from the good but not necessary, LOL.

Copywork is sufficient to cover handwriting, spelling and grammar in the first couple of grades, right? Spelling through studied dictation can begin in 3d grade, and formal grammar instruction can begin....when? 3rd grade also? 4th? 5th? Ack, so confused.

Thanks!
Melissa

[Trivium Academy]

Melissa,

For language arts:
This is why I chose to use Language Lessons for the Very Young by Sandi Queen (with my modifications) for first, Primary Language Lessons in 2nd/3rd and Intermediate Language Lessons after that. I feel it gives us all I feel we need with punctuation, grammar, usage and mechanics. These products allow me to relax and keeps our lessons short.

Formal grammar can be done in 4th grade and up. We'll use Junior Analytical Grammar and/or Analytical Grammar some time around 5th-8th grade. I don't know if I could do language arts strictly the way CM lays it out, it might be the WTM influence though. :)

We have poetry copywork, copywork in PLL, and we're focusing heavily on narrations in 2nd. I know in the CM books I've read that oral narrations shouldn't start before 1st grade.

I really appreciate Ambleside and Mater Amabilis for providing example of how to structure curriculum with CM goals in mind, I've been reading and pulling ideas from them within my comfort zone and it's worked out well.

For science: Honestly? My heart is singing for joy with a new (old) approach for science, it's taken a LOT of reading to get comfortable with the idea of reading literary science and exploring from there but I'm in love now.

For history: We're using TOG so I feel TOG is serving us well in the history department with living books and I'm keeping it light for right now so we can focus on LA and reading.

For Math: I'm happy with Horizons although math fact copywork could probably be considered a CM approach.
For French: Not intentionally following CM but we are.

Hope this helps, I'm probably no where near qualified to answer this...

[MIch elle]

Copywork is sufficient to cover handwriting, spelling and grammar in the first couple of grades, right? Spelling through studied dictation can begin in 3d grade, and formal grammar instruction can begin....when? 3rd grade also? 4th? 5th? Ack, so confused.


Right!

We began formal English with Rod & Staff English 3 done orally & lightly. It can also begin in grades 4 or 5.

[OneRoomHomeSchool]

This might be helpful?

http://amblesideonline.org/LangArtsScopeSeq.shtml#1to3

[8FillTheHeart]

Indulge me for just a second, please - trying to sort out what to teach, what to let go, and to separate the necessary and good from the good but not necessary, LOL.

Copywork is sufficient to cover handwriting, spelling and grammar in the first couple of grades, right? Spelling through studied dictation can begin in 3d grade, and formal grammar instruction can begin....when? 3rd grade also? 4th? 5th? Ack, so confused.

Thanks!
Melissa


Hi Melissa,

I am a very "limited" homeschooler when my kids are little. By that I mean I focus strictly on the basics......math, writing, reading. K and first are focusing on letter formation, phonics, very simple copywork, math, and reading.

Someone posted an old post of mine under the thread about writing if you want to read how I approach writing and grammar with my kids. :)

The reality is that as long as k-2nd graders are mastering phonics and reading and 3rd-5th they are learning to comprehend from their reading and learning basic writing skills, then they are pretty much on target for elementary grades.

[MelissaMinNC]

For some reason, I thought that at this point (heading into year 3 of homeschooling) it would all start getting a little easier. Too bad I feel more turned around and overwhelmed than I did at this time last year.

Maybe I'm just hungry. :D

I just need to process all of this, but I'm wondering - if I use daily copywork from quality sources, and if I continue to do poetry memorization and oral narrations of our reading, and if I add in picture study ala AO's Artist Study schedule (and CM's methods), do I NEED to use something like the Language Lessons book Jessica is mentioning? (The one I was looking at earlier is English for the Thoughtful Child. It looks wonderful - but do we NEED it? Kwim?)

Also...I really am not sure where we stand as far as needing phonics instruction. Last year (K) we used 100EZ Lessons for learning to read, and since then, dd has just been reading. I think, though I'm not completely certain that she reads at about a 5th grade level (whatever that means, exactly), but I don't know how she really does with sounding out new words, and I'm not sure where her comprehension level is. And at this very moment, I'm not sure how to find this stuff out. (Like I said, I'm hungry, LOL - low blood sugar is taking over.)

And then, there are all of the wonderful ToG writing assignments, which I fully planned to use....but again, now I just don't know if they're necessary.

And I'm starting to think I ought to get R&S 4 (or so) and go through it myself, because I honestly don't think I could teach writing the way Mom of 7 desribes without doing a basic grammar course myself. I have a Bachelor's degree in English/Lit.

And...wah...I just feel like I need to take the rest of this year off of school so I can figure all this stuff out. I don't have TIME. I need about 5 more hours in my day - is that asking too much? :eek:

Thanks for putting up with me - any more insights welcome.

:)
Melissa

[LindaOz]

I just need to process all of this, but I'm wondering - if I use daily copywork from quality sources, and if I continue to do poetry memorization and oral narrations of our reading, and if I add in picture study ala AO's Artist Study schedule (and CM's methods), do I NEED to use something like the Language Lessons book Jessica is mentioning? (The one I was looking at earlier is English for the Thoughtful Child. It looks wonderful - but do we NEED it? Kwim?)




Hi Melissa,

I've been doing A LOT of reading about CM method lately and am implementing it more and more with my children. So, from what I am reading, I would say 'no', you don't need to add the Lang Lessons books if you are doing all the other things. On the other hand, those books are good for if you are wanting something already set out that uses the same methods as CM used.

Personally, I have two of my children using Primary Language Lessons and we still do copywork, narrations and dictation but I do sometimes adjust the quantity of this according to what they have already done in PLL that day. I use PLL still because I like it and it is compatible with the CM methods that I am wanting to use.

HTH

[Dayle in Guatemala]

We've done strictly copywork, dictation, and narration until grade 4. In our language arts (LLATL--Learning Language Arts Through Literature) we have a little of grammar smattered in with the lessons, but, formal grammar study doesn't begin until about 4th grade. During this time, I do supplement with Ridgewood Grammar which is a 3 book program used in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade which provides about 10 minutes a day of grammar practice.

Until then, we've just enjoyed fun journaling with prompts, or nature journaling, or reading awesome literature that gives my dc great examples of good grammar. Until then, I don't formally introduce it. My dd13 is in 8th grade right now and has absorbed grammar in a way that is natural and easy for her. I love that she corrects herself because, with all the reading we've done, she naturally sees good ways of writing things.

Anyway, that's what's worked for us. It's relaxed, but, thorough and good!:)

[ELaurie]

Hi Jessica,

(Hijacking a bit here, I'm afraid ; )

Would you please clarify what you mean by "literary science"?

Are you referring to a literature based approach, which includes reading about scientists and their discoveries, or am I missing what you mean?

I plan to use Real Science 4 Kids with my dc 8 and 5 next year. This curriculum contains 10 lessons. I also plan to read "living books" about scientists and their lives, and do more regular nature studies. Since my dc are crazy about science, and can't wait to learn about chemistry, I may add a few other odds and ends, but I want to keep it simple, straight forward, and "doable" : )

It's "science light" from a WTM perspective, but it fits my "comfort zone" as you would say. I can expose them to a few key people and ideas within the four year cycle, while also leaving plenty of time to explore the world around us.

Would love to hear your thoughts - I'll also check your blog : )

[Trivium Academy]

Literary science is what I'm calling the approach we're about to take with science, reading books that ignite the spark to explore more or just illuminate science in a different but deeper way than textbooks and modern day surface-level books can.

For example, from Our Humble Helpers (http://books.google.com/books?id=_901AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=#PPA7,M1) by Jean Henri Fabre:
"These curious particulars of the hen's habits," said Jules, "are quiet familiar to us all; we see them everyday with our own eyes. One only is new to me: hens, you say, swallow little grains of sand which takes the place of teeth for grinding the food in the gizzard. I don't know what the gizzard is and I don't see how little stones that have been swallowed can be used as teeth."
"A short digression on the digestive organs of birds," replied Uncle Paul, "will give you the information you ask for."Uncle Paul then explains how birds eat and how grains of sand or rocks can serve as teeth for birds. There are three children and Uncle Paul in this book, talking to each other and learning about the habits of animals. I'm riveted, I want to read more- my children will be riveted too. I linked the free text above for this particular book.

Then there's the Thornton Burgess books, take any one of them and you can make a mini-study of it. From The Adventures of Chatterer the Red Squirrel, the reader realizes that Shadow the Weasel and Redtail the Hawk are deadly enemies of Chatterer and the reader learns about the habits and life of the animals that surround the Red Squirrel in story form. It is sort of sneaky, here's this animal story and you're learning something.

Just today dd7 read half of the first chapter of Mother West Wind's Children and she was narrating with excitement, wanting to tell me the story that she read because she enjoyed it so much but I know she also read about a skunk looking for beetles, rats have long, smooth, tapering tails and that Happy Jack Squirrel stores his nuts in a hole in a chestnut tree. Not to mention it's much better reading material than the series on the local bookstore shelf.

Or this excerpt from Seed-Babies (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=_60XAAAAIAAJ&dq=seed-babies+by+morley&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Un3H5k6_UQ&sig=L8uP0NsCfNTiYg6yupxKz7sXOV4) by Margaret Morley

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/triviumacademy/SeedBabiesExcerpt.jpg


We're going to read about science and then dig as deep as we want from there and the part that melts my heart is the books that were written for children in 1850-1920 during the heyday of Natural Science, when it was the "thing" to talk a nature walk and observe a mosquito or to talk about the numerous experiments you're working on during a formal dinner.

Plus there are fabulous authors that write with passion in books we miss because we're looking to get science "done". I wouldn't have seen a Jim Arnosky book or even cared about reading about John Muir. Now I'm surrounded by books I can't wait to read to my children not because I want my children to learn from them (that will come naturally) but because I want to share the joy of reading these books with them. I want to explore too!

I'm working on a K-8 outline of science studies and then I'll fill with books I don't want to miss. I want it to flow with the seasons but also allow us to study what interests us and ensure we cover certain topics before 9th grade. I just read today in "The Educated Child" by William Bennett that a child's interest in science is dependent on the years prior to 3rd grade, that around 9-10 years of age if the spark for science hasn't been ignited, it probably never will be. I don't want this, science is God's expression and artistry- I feel it's such a crucial part of an individual's personality and character to look outside of themselves and see the wondrous world around them. I think power of curiosity and observation as well learning about God's creation are a few of the many beautiful gifts God has given us.

Okay, I'm rambling. Anyways, the short answer- read inspiring, informative literary books about science: books like above, biographies and passionate authors and go from there. Do experiments to see what the scientist saw, learn how to classify and observe.

This is my pet subject and I'm thrilled to be able to do this with my kids. I'm thrilled to be able to have the time to wonder with them and notice things. As parents, we are SO blessed.

[Susie in MS]

Jessica,
I love reading your post!!! You take the heart of CM and make it come to life with enthusiasm !! Thank you!! BTW, I, too, love the older books!!!

[ELaurie]

Thank you Jessica!

Your enthusiasm is contagious, and I can see why you're in love with these books! They have been on my "books to find out more about" list - now I'll have to see if I can track them down.

It's always dangerous to correspond with you about these kinds of things - inevitably I end up adding more books to our HSing budget!

(I really do appreciate how generous you are in sharing your new discoveries tho : )

Now for my next question - and I'm wondering whether to cut an paste this conversation to begin a new thread about science, since I really am hijacking the OP's thread here - I read in an earlier post that you are planning to use some of the chemistry books on your shelf for next year - for 14 weeks or so, as I recall - I'm curious to know how you plan to do all of this, and what you anticipate your schedule will look like. Perhaps this is already on your blog - I meant to check last night, but I'm still adjusting to the time change and had to force myself off to bed : )

Anyway, would love to hear more of your thoughts . . .

Gratefully,

[MelissaMinNC]

And I have science on my mind, too, so it's no problem. ;)

(Actually, it is part of the problem - my mind keeps jumping around instead of sticking to one subject long enough to get my thoughts sorted out! LOL)

:)
Melissa

[Trivium Academy]

I haven't talked too much about plans at my blog b/c I'm still in research and organizing mode but we will be focusing in other areas next year and we'll be having chemistry/physical science rainy days. Someone suggested doing experiments inside when we can't go outside and I think that's perfect.

I still have the books we've collected for chemistry and we'll read those informally and using Janice Van Cleave's Chemistry for Every Kid book to do experiments when the weather is not conducive to be outside.

From a post about chemistry last month:
How Science Works by Reader's Digest
Chemistry: Learn about Chemical Elements and Compounds CD(The Science Series)" Twin Sisters Production
What's Smaller Than a Pygmy Shrew?" Robert E. Wells
What's the Matter in Mr. Whiskers' Room?" Michael Elsohn Ross
Great Black Heroes: Five Brilliant Scientists (level 4) (Hello Reader)" Lynda Jones
The Periodic Table (True Books)" Salvatore Tocci
What Is the World Made Of? All About Solids, Liquids, and Gases (Let's-Read-and-Find-Out Science, Stage 2)" Kathleen Weidner Zoehfeld
Switch On, Switch Off (Let's-Read-and-Find-Out Science 2)" Melvin Berger
The Periodic Table of Elements Magnets" SMART by Simple Memory Art
The Best Book of Fossils, Rocks, and Minerals (The Best Book of)" Chris Perrault
Science Verse (Golden Duck Awards. Picture Book (Awards))" Jon Scieszka
How to Think Like a Scientist: Answering Questions by the Scientific Method" Stephen P. Kramer
Electric Storm, Magic School Bus Chapter BookNow we'll read these either later (after 4th grade) or when the mood strikes us. "How to Think Like a Scientist" will be read soon because I want to make sure we're using and understanding the scientific method. Scientists biographies will be read every year no matter the subject. Some things will be learn through reading, others will be learned through experimentation and digging deeper.

I feel comfortable giving my kids surface stuff and allow their interests to make us dig deeper. Dd7 already wants to know more and more about various things that she observes, I'd rather dig deeper into those topics that she shows the interest in than force her to learn about a topic just because she's in a certain grade level and we need to check it off our list. I'm creating a checklist for myself by grade levels and as a way to check the kids' retention each year. This is sort of complicated, I want the kids to independently read on various subjects with books on their level, I want to read aloud to them engaging books that spark further interest, do nature studies within the seasons and perform experiments that are both interest-led and "rainy-day" experiments that may be outside our current focus.

The best way I can describe it is to have science be integrated into our lives and not so much a "subject". I'm trying to be organized and free-flowing with this as much as possible. I do believe that if I didn't do an outline and organize our studies the kids would get more than enough just through reading and nature studies. I just have to have some type of organized model/system/list to make myself calm down.

So I don't know if I'll have a schedule of studies, 10 weeks on this and 9 weeks on that so much as I will ensure we cover topics in an age appropriate way. Here's an example out the outline I'm working on:

Living Things and Their Environments
---(K-3)
• plants and animals live in environments to which they are suited
• different habitats
• the food chain
• classification of animals (omnivores, herbivores, carnivores, extinct)
• characteristics of ocean life (salt water, currents, landscape of ocean floor)
• great diversity of ocean life (plankton, whales)
---4th grade and up
• the five kingdoms: plant, animal, fungus, protist, moneran
• smaller groupings: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species
• how living things are given scientific names
• major characteristics of vertebrates

If we learn about the five kingdoms before 4th grade, great! But in the upper years I'll make sure that the kids know this information. Using WTM, we've covered a LOT of material in Life and Earth Science that will need to be covered again later. This helps me identify what those topics are.

Boy, I confused myself! :)

[ELaurie]

You're "in process" ;)

I think there is always a period of disequilibrium when we integrate new approaches and new ideas : )

In the meantime, you have sparked a new level of enthusiasm on the boards about nature studies and literary science!

Like you, I plan to do study chemistry with my dc on days when we can't be outside - since we're in the Chicago area, we've had a lot of those this year. We can do this during the winter months.

I'm transitioning to a four day schedule that leaves day 5 for field trips and longer days spent out of doors, and plan to take advantage of some of the wonderful natural resources in our area (forest preserves, arboretums, botanical gardens . . .)

My dc are crazy about science, and already know more about atoms and molecules than I do from watching NOVA and the Discovery channel with their dad. However, like you, I feel the need for a little structure in this area. The structure is primarily for me - they're like sponges, soaking it all up, but I feel the need to create some "pegs" to hang a body of knowledge from, in part because I am still developing a basic vocabulary and a rudimentary knowledge of certain subject areas myself, and I feel a need to grasp the fundamentals so I can evaluate curricula and plan for 5th through 8th grade and beyond in more thoughtful and informed ways.

So I guess I'm admitting that the "overview" in the elementary years is really for me - an introduction to the classical education I never had : )

I'm also working toward keeping our Language Arts lessons brief, and doing them consistently. I tend to be consistent in this area any way, but because our older dc struggles with handwriting and spelling, I sometimes get into "let's try to finish this lesson" mode with him, rather than stopping before his enthusiasm for the subject begins to wane (which is about 4 minutes, BTW :))

Thanks for all of the great book recommendations - it will be fun to see how our approach to science is transformed by integrating these ideas over time!

[ELaurie]

Thanks, Melissa : )

[islandmama]

Sorry to hijack!

I just got my PLL (thanks Jessica for the suggestion!) and started looking through it to make a schedule for next year... I noticed no mention of the parts of speech! My first response was "oh no! I can't use this!" I guess my head is still stuck in the WTM and was comparing to FLL... Well, the more I looked at it, I discovered that it does cover everything beautifully, but just doesn't put a name to it. If I'm in a total panic, I guess I could cover nouns, verbs and adjectives over the summer first.. still deciding! Then spelling... what to do??? Spelling workout covers all the spelling/phonics rules... Do I need this??? Someone please tell me to relax! :scared: One second I'm totally relaxed about it, next moment I start to panic, and my brain reverts to the "grammar stage" of rules and facts... My plan was/is to start formal grammar in 4th.

And science, I love the idea of literary science... We're gonna start with the Burgess books and Among the Meadow People series... Very cool!

[MelissaMinNC]

One second I'm totally relaxed about it, next moment I start to panic,

Ah yes. I totally know how you feel. I've come to the decision that at some point you just have to pick your path and trust it to work. Give it a good, honest try before freaking out and changing gears. And ask yourself, since you plan to start formal grammar in 4th grade - what is the worst thing that could happen if your dc don't know their parts of speech (or just don't know the labels) by the time 4th grade rolls around? Will you be able to teach it to them then? Yes. And they will be able to pick it up quickly, and have a good grasp, from all the foundational knowledge you're giving them now. PLL and all these years of good reading, narrations, etc., will pave the way. So relax.

Now. Tomorrow, when I'm having my weekly panic attack, I expect you to repeat this message back to me. ;)

:)
Melissa