Hmmm...Do you think that, as food prices rise, people may rediscover quality?

[Jane in NC]

Corn and strawberries from local farms always taste so much better than grocery store stuff. I had never been able to figure out why people buy strawberries that have traveled a distance when local berries are in season until my sister recently revealed her opinion that berries trucked in across the country "last longer". Really?

A blog that I read linked to another blog with an article on "The Truth Behind Those $5 Pizzas". With food costs rising, how can some of the fast food chains lower their prices? By using poorer quality ingredients. Here is the article:

http://www.restaurantmarketingblog.com/

Many of the posts that discuss family budget cutbacks make note of the fact that convenience foods are being eliminated first. A new trend?

I think it so cool that many are trying gardening for the first time or the first time in years. May the weather bless your plot. And may the deer stay out of my blackberry patch!

Jane

[jmgconner]

Jane, you can count me as one of those people who is rediscovering quality. It started a few years ago when we moved into our home and discovered the farmers' market downtown. Now, DH and I have planned our Victory Garden for this year - and we're so excited to get started! Thank you for the weather blessings, and may the deer stay out of your blackberry patch!

[Jill, OK]

...in other words, folks purchasing regular rather than organic, and least expensive vs. best quality, in order to lower costs. (Most of the farmer's markets I'm aware of are more expensive than the grocery store).

[Momof2kids]

While I DO prefer locally grown or very close to home grown fruits and vegetables (like I have bought at Whole Foods), they still are way too expensive.

I would never ever garden. I just absoloutly hate it. Flowers, fruit, vegetables. I don't care. So no I would never ever do this no matter what the prices are.

Now if I lived on a farm land with nothing else to do and nothing much around us I might consider it. But for my lifestyle now, no way.

[abbeyej]

I'm with Jill. I think it will result in quite the opposite for most people.

Not everyone, of course.

And one reason why people buy produce that has traveled? It's *easier*. It's just simpler to do all shopping at a large grocery store than to travel to farmer's markets and pick up CSA boxes and arrange to stop at (relatively) nearby farms, etc, etc, for the various items they need.

[Eleni]

We recently moved onto a small farm in order to grow our own foods, and become a bit self sufficient. TBH, I am tired of sub par food in the stores. I am one who will travel to buy locally grown food..1)because it tastes better 2) because we strongly believe in supporting local farmers.

This year we will have a large garden...we also have some blackberry bushes, and an apple orchard. We will be raising chickens, some to eat, some for eggs. At some point there will be a couple goats for milk.

[j.griff]

Plus, isn't it better for one big truck to take foods to a local store, than for everyone to drive the extra miles to the farm to pick it up at the source? Most folks have to do some regular shopping (soap/shampoo/OTC meds/etc.) in a regular store- so it saves the time and gas for them to shop in one big store (or even a few stores that are rather close to each other).

[Colleen]

Like Jill and Abbey, I think higher food prices leads people in the other direction. Wish that weren't the case, though.

[Melinda in VT]

Plus, isn't it better for one big truck to take foods to a local store, than for everyone to drive the extra miles to the farm to pick it up at the source? Most folks have to do some regular shopping (soap/shampoo/OTC meds/etc.) in a regular store- so it saves the time and gas for them to shop in one big store (or even a few stores that are rather close to each other).

The two CSA farms I know of in our area are both located on the main road through the valley. *Everyone* in three towns has to drive past one or the other (if not both) to get anywhere. In fact, I pass my CSA farm on the way to the store.

Granted, I think I might be unusual, but most CSAs I have looked at in other areas have drop-off locations in various population centers.

[Raders Fan]

Actually, I think convenience foods are too ingrained in many people to ever be replaced. I think people will complain about rising food prices and demand the government to fix the problem. And perhaps companies will start using poorer quality ingredients to keep their prices from rising more. I hope I'm wrong about all of this. In the meantime, we'll have a much bigger garden than we have ever had before.

Jennifer

[Jill, OK]

...I didn't think we were talking about 'convenience' food. I thought we were talking milk, produce, etc. Those are the prices that are going up, aren't they? (Although I have noticed a price jump in a certain cereal I buy; I guess that counts as a convenience food.)

[Jill, OK]

Sorry, lol, I know this isn't a 'woohoo' type thread...but I just noticed that I *finally* broke 200 posts! :-)

[Raders Fan]

Well, the OP did mention convenience foods, toward the end of her post. Everybody else may have been discussing milk, produce, grains, .... I was responding to convenience foods.

Jennifer

[Karen sn]

YES TO QUALITY!!!!
I think people will rediscover quality because they will be financially forced into simple eating. Mark my words, people will be easily growing their own tomatoes and peppers because they can't afford them from the store. Then they will discover what they've been missing. And there's no going back to a store tomato when you've had them fresh from your own garden!

Then they will discover homemade soups and home grown salads. Homemade bread isn't too far behind. They will eat better on less money.

All areas of the economy will feel it. People will even quit buying cheap breakable crap from the Everything's a Dollar store.

I am becoming more picky about holding out to buy only quality food and nonfood items. Regarding nonfood it is cheaper in the long run to only buy it once. And regarding food - I would rather feel satisfied with my meal than to feel sick.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Jill, I was going to say the same thing. At least out here in Phoenix, local produce is quite pricey. Unless you buy it from the back of the truck and then there's a really good chance it's the same stuff as the grocery stores from Mexico and California. I think as local produce catches on, the prices are going higher and higher.

Barb

...in other words, folks purchasing regular rather than organic, and least expensive vs. best quality, in order to lower costs. (Most of the farmer's markets I'm aware of are more expensive than the grocery store).

[RoughCollie]

I ate fresh, locally grown strawberries for the first time a couple of years ago. The man at the garden store insisted and I bought all he had left. I could not believe the difference in flavor!

I think the prices for trucked-in food are going to rise because of the high cost of diesel fuel -- it's over $4 a gallon here, more expensive than gasoline.

I am hoping we can join a nearby CSA for our veggies this year. I'm going to try to grow some, too, especially the expensive stuff I like a lot -- bell peppers, tomatoes, strawberries, blueberries, and asparagus.

Corn and strawberries from local farms always taste so much better than grocery store stuff.

Jane

[Dana in OR]

although gardening on a mountain slope is going to be a challenge. It may not happen this year, or just minimally.

We need to do a lot of work in terms of clearing our land of dead brush so we can protect our home from fire - backbreaking, non-satisfying work. After that, we can build our greenhouse. Living in the country is so much work, more than we ever envisioned.

[freethinkermom]

We have very little selection here so the difference between the discount (WalMart) and not discount (Safeway) grocery stores is obvious. I have noticed the prices have gone up a lot more at the "discount" store and changed very little at the regular grocery store. Now the prices are comparable making there very little reason to settle for the lower quality at WalMart. Not that Safeway is always that great, but they are worlds apart in quality and selection.

A real butcher shop recently opened in the next town over. They have nice high quality hormone free meat that they charge the same or less than the grocery stores. They buy locally and butcher it themselves keeping the price low and quality high. We have eaten more meat lately than I can ever remember. Oh, and they will BBQ it for you at no extra charge if you call ahead.

Unfortunately, the fresh produce season is very short here. Except for blue and black berries, the rest is often not as good as produce brought in from more appropriate climates. The berries though...mmmm. The other big local fresh food is seafood, but I cannot eat most of it (allergies).

[Eliana]

No, I don't think so.

Wonder bread is much cheaper than spinach and cheese and strawberries.
... and I can't make meals cheaper than the advertisements I see on fast food chain displays, especially not with organic ingredients, and lots of fruits and veggies.

We spend a fortune on food each month, even though we are vegetarian and don't eat out except on special occasions, and don't buy convenience food often. We buy organic milk (thanks Colleen!), organic grains and fruits & veggies, tofu, kosher cheese (which is as expensive as organic!), whole grain bread, eggs from cage free chickens, etc. We've got quality, nutrition, and flavor well covered, but the rising costs are really hurting.

I remember reading an article about public school lunches and the cost issues involved in trying to get more real vegetables, whole grains, and less processed food in there - they are operating on tiny per student budgets and they 'can't afford' and apple per child, for example, instead of a chocolate pudding....

It saddens me that simple, nutritious food is becoming out of reach for so many families. (And, radical that I am, I'd like to see more funding go into WIC, especially its coupons for farmers markets - I've seen families at the market using them, and it made me so happy.... to avoid getting even more political, I won't share my thoughts about where the funding should come from....)

(and, yes, this indicates "socialist" sympathies, and, no, I don't think that is bad. :)

[ElaineJ]

[quote=Eliana;96426]No, I don't think so.



I remember reading an article about public school lunches and the cost issues involved in trying to get more real vegetables, whole grains, and less processed food in there - they are operating on tiny per student budgets and they 'can't afford' and apple per child, for example, instead of a chocolate pudding....
come from....)

This is what I've heard, too. Apparently, obesity and other diet related health issues are more prevalent in lower income households because they just can't afford to buy as much quality food. Very sad!:(

[Virginia Dawn]

...in other words, folks purchasing regular rather than organic, and least expensive vs. best quality, in order to lower costs. (Most of the farmer's markets I'm aware of are more expensive than the grocery store).

When foods are in season, the farmer's market here is very reasonable. It depends on what you are buying. If you buy strawberries, lettuce, and greens in May, you will save money. If you buy sweet corn and tomatoes in July, the same thing. But if you buy specialty foods that don't ever have much demand, you will always pay through the nose.

Also, I think alot depends on family structure and the area you live in. Around here, a lot of people would probably go back to eating cornbread, beans, and greens. But dh says he would get second job before he would eat like he was poor, lol.

I have noticed a marked decrease in the quality of some fast foods in the last few years. We rarely eat out, but when we do, I have not enjoyed it much.

[Virginia Dawn]

Plus, isn't it better for one big truck to take foods to a local store, than for everyone to drive the extra miles to the farm to pick it up at the source? Most folks have to do some regular shopping (soap/shampoo/OTC meds/etc.) in a regular store- so it saves the time and gas for them to shop in one big store (or even a few stores that are rather close to each other).

But it is not just one big truck. Food that comes from South America, California, or Florida, to Virginia, uses a lot more fuel and resources than me driving 15 miles to a farm market, not to mention the questionable nutrition and methods of preservation.

[Jane in NC]

(Most of the farmer's markets I'm aware of are more expensive than the grocery store).

I wonder if this is a regional thing. There are two farmers from whom I buy produce in season (and we have a fairly long growing season here in coastal NC) who are always cheaper than the grocery. But we also go to Cape Cod regularly where food prices are out of sight! I do buy local produce on the Cape but pay an arm and a leg for it!

We have joined a CSA this year. For $15 a week I will receive a box of organic produce for sixteen weeks. Their first box won't be delivered for another month, but their shares are sold out. At that price, one can see why!

Local seafood is a regular part of our diet. Some is given to us by friends who fish. For example I pick strawberries in season for my neighbors, a retired couple, who in turn give us fish. We also buy fish from the local fishmonger who in turn buys it off the local boats. I probably pay one and a half times as much for local shrimp over the farm raised Asian stuff that is in the groceries. But in terms of taste, fresh shrimp wins. We don't usually have platters of the stuff but put shrimp in a stir fry or have a skewer of grilled shrimp with a salad.

I do buy a lot of turkey and turkey products from an NC processor's factory store. It is on the road to my nephew's house, so when we visit we will stop there and stock up.

Local eggs are more expensive--but gosh are "real" eggs worth the money to me!

Coffee prices may go through the roof between fuel costs and the falling dollar. Chocolate, too. Hard to eliminate those from my life.

Jane

[Momof2kids]

All areas of the economy will feel it. People will even quit buying cheap breakable crap from the Everything's a Dollar store.



Well actually the opposite is happening with me. I am being DRIVEN to the Dollar Stores (I am planning on going there today) because of the high prices in regular stores.

I went to Aldi where I rarely shop but last night I gave it another try because I am sick of hardly buying anything and paying alot of money for it. My $100.00 went a long way at Aldi last night.

Prices at Aldi have gone up too but since their prices are so low to begin with it's still much cheaper than the other stores.

[nukeswife]

I think a lot depends on where you are. I recently moved from FL (Jacksonville) to Virginia, I haven't been able to find out much about farmer's markets here as it's not really "in season" for much, but in Jacksonville I know that even during "in season" for strawberries we stopped going to the "farmers market" as they had the same clear plastic jewel box strawberries that I can buy at the grocery store, the difference I spent more on gas to drive to the farmer's market. I think the "farmers market" there was a joke it was basically a bunch of people that bought large quantities from a food distributor and then tried to sell it in the open air market.

I'm hoping that things are better here in Chesapeake.

[Diana in OR]

In my area, I've noticed that local and/or organic foods (including milk) have not risen as fast as their counterparts. So while it is still expensive, there is not the gap that there once was in the prices of quality items.

[Colleen]

...and, yes, this indicates "socialist" sympathies, and, no, I don't think that is bad.:)

:D

[Eliana]

(Most of the farmer's markets I'm aware of are more expensive than the grocery store).

I guess it depends on which products and which stores...
The Farmers Market here in our neighborhood has a fabulous selection (at peak season, not so great when it starts in May or is ending in October) and the prices are better than at the local PCC or Whole Foods - but we're only looking at the organic produce, perhaps the non-organic is more expensive than at Safeway? (The quality is much higher too - the food is fresher and more flavorful. We look forward to farmer's market corn-on-the-cob all year long!)

This conversation has reminded me that we need to restart our CSA deliveries now that we are done moving!

[Both the Farmer's Market and the CSA pick up site are right here in our neighborhood, so there is no extra driving involved. If anyone lives in Seattle and is looking for a good CSA: http://www.fullcirclefarm.com/ourcsa.html

You can choose three things to never get, choose alternates for up to 3 items on your weekly delivery list, add more stuff to your order, and put your account on vacation hold (or, in our case, moving hold) and incur no charges during that time. They have a second chance pick-up location (which does involve driving!) and donate boxes that aren't picked up to a local food bank..]

[Colleen]

In my area, I've noticed that local and/or organic foods (including milk) have not risen as fast as their counterparts. So while it is still expensive, there is not the gap that there once was in the prices of quality items.

I've heard a couple of people say this same thing. And honestly, the prices at my natural foods co-op have not gone up dramatically, with some notable exceptions. Flour is through the roof, for example.

[Jill, OK]

It saddens me that simple, nutritious food is becoming out of reach for so many families.

It saddens me, too. :-(

[Jill, OK]

I guess it depends on which products and which stores...

I think it also depends on your area, and how many farmer's markets there are.

I probably shouldn't even have commented on that, because I haven't been to a farmer's market since we've moved back here. Most of our produce is bought at the health food store (best bet around here for organic).

I'm anxious to see what the prices are at our local co-op, since we're in a position now to pony up for the membership! (Dh was out of a job for several months).

[abbeyej]

Originally Posted by Eliana
It saddens me that simple, nutritious food is becoming out of reach for so many families.
It saddens me, too. :-(

I think price is one thing... I think time and knowledge and hope are in short supply for a lot of people too.

Adults who don't know how to cook, who were never taught or mentored in the kitchen so that they have any idea how to begin to prepare simple, healthful, plant-intensive meals... They feel overwhelmed at the the thought of trying to figure this out, at the time it will take (when so many parents work and have little of the luxury of *time* that I have to spend thinking about how I will nourish my family), at the fear of wasting ingredients (when the frozen or fast-food options will always have a consistently "good" taste)...

There's also a pervasive hopelessness in certain segments of the population when it comes to physical health. People see that their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles are being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at younger and younger ages, and they truly believe that it's entirely genetic and there's nothing they can do to prevent it (or many other diet-based diseases). And the fact is, of course, genetics play a role -- but that's not the whole story.

I'm not sure how to address all of these concerns any more than I know how to address the rising cost of produce. But I do think that it goes much deeper than mere "price". (And I know you both know that -- I'm not arguing with you, just continuing the thought...)

[Jill, OK]

...but when you're in the midst of all the things you mentioned, *and* you're strapped for cash...'price' tends to overshadow everything.

And I know you know I know those things, and I know (lol) that you know what *I'm* saying (it's like a Steve Martin routine..."*You* know what *I'm* trying to say...")...but there are also a lot of feelings I have, politically and otherwise, that contribute to my sadness over the food issues in this country, underlying what I say.

(I probably shouldn't get into those, lol.)

[Diana in OR]

I've heard a couple of people say this same thing. And honestly, the prices at my natural foods co-op have not gone up dramatically, with some notable exceptions. Flour is through the roof, for example.

I forgot to mention that O.V. products are often the ones I get the best deals on, both at the regular grocery store and Grocery Outlet. My boys were thrilled b/c this week, Grocery Outlet had 1qt. O.V. chocolate milk for $.99. "Regular" milk is more than that.

[Robin in Tx]

I don't care for the WIC Farmer's Market coupons at all. It totally discriminates against participants who don't have access to a Farmer's Market. If the whole point of the program is to help the nutrition of pregnant and nursing women and their children under the age of 5, and if fresh fruit and vegetables are an approved part of that program, then those fresh foods should be covered under the program in general... not only when they are purchased at a Farmer's Market. I mean, really... we'll pay for your bananas and brocolli as long as you buy them at a FArmer's Market? But if your town doesn't have a farmer's market and would like to buy those exact same foods at your nearby grocery store, then sorry... you're s.o.l. (with the exception of carrots, the only produce covered)?

How ridiculous!

And while WIC does cover dried beans, milk, cheese and peanut butter, it is also covers (and is used primarily for) infant forumla, processed (iron fortified) cereals, canned/bottled fruit and veg juice high in vit. C (the juices, but not the fresh produce!!), and canned tuna. All processed stuff. I think the program is good in theory (trying to provide nutrition to unborn babies, infants and very young children in low income homes) but what ends up happening most of the time is the parents use the coupons to buy groceries for the entire family, and proportionately little gets to the target child while low birth weights, etc., haven't been affected much at all

Yep, socialism in all its glory... bureaucratic waste, abuse, nonsense guidelines, unmet goals...

[Robin in Tx]

I agree with Jill... in the south, "legend" has it that the reason why everything is deep fat fried is because it is the CHEAPEST way to get calories into hungry mouths.

The least expensive way to feed your family is to feed them foods that are full of inexpensive fats. Hot dogs. Fried everything. It's cheaper to make jiffy cornbread and instant pudding than it is to serve fresh produce and whole grains.

I have to feed 100 a week for $1 each at a Wednesday night church event, and it is near impossible to provide anything healthy. Tyson breaded chicken patties and pizza are WAY cheaper than the foods I prefer to feed my famly. If I want to serve a salad or fresh fruit, I have to make sure and have a really cheap entree. I can actually get 59 cent hamburgers at McDonalds, but I can't cook something like lasagna from scratch and have enough left over for either bread or salad.

Eating healthy really is a lot more expensive...

[Robin in Tx]

I think that the people hurt the worse by rising food costs don't have those options available to them. The urban poor don't have access to farmer's markets and garden plots.

[Eliana]

I don't care for the WIC Farmer's Market coupons at all. It totally discriminates against participants who don't have access to a Farmer's Market. If the whole point of the program is to help the nutrition of pregnant and nursing women and their children under the age of 5, and if fresh fruit and vegetables are an approved part of that program, then those fresh foods should be covered under the program in general... not only when they are purchased at a Farmer's Market. I mean, really... we'll pay for your bananas and brocolli as long as you buy them at a FArmer's Market? But if your town doesn't have a farmer's market and would like to buy those exact same foods at your nearby grocery store, then sorry... you're s.o.l. (with the exception of carrots, the only produce covered)?

How ridiculous!

And while WIC does cover dried beans, milk, cheese and peanut butter, it is also covers (and is used primarily for) infant forumla, processed (iron fortified) cereals, canned/bottled fruit and veg juice high in vit. C (the juices, but not the fresh produce!!), and canned tuna. All processed stuff. I think the program is good in theory (trying to provide nutrition to unborn babies, infants and very young children in low income homes) but what ends up happening most of the time is the parents use the coupons to buy groceries for the entire family, and proportionately little gets to the target child while low birth weights, etc., haven't been affected much at all

Yep, socialism in all its glory... bureaucratic waste, abuse, nonsense guidelines, unmet goals...


I have a lot of criticisms of details of the WIC program, but farmer's market coupons are a way of supporting more fresh produce without putting it through the insane limits the regular coupons impose.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of socialism here, but I want to express my passionate disagreement with the stereotyped dismissal you've given it above. Every economic system has its strengths and weaknesses, but they are more complex than that...

I will content myself with sharing this humorous oversimplified parody of capitalism:

http://library.beau.org/gutenberg/etext05/equal10h.htm#23

[To clarify: I am not a Socialist myself, though I have some socialist leanings.]

[Eliana]

I think that the people hurt the worse by rising food costs don't have those options available to them. The urban poor don't have access to farmer's markets and garden plots.

I think you are right, in general.

Seattle, however, has done a nice job of making both Farmer's Markets and community gardens available throughout the city. I wish more cities would do so as well...

[Robin in Tx]

But don't you agree that if they really wanted to support more fresh produce they would add fresh produce to the list of qualified foods (the same way that carrots are currently on the list)? I would argue that the Farmer's Market coupons do NOT support more fresh produce... they support Farmer's Markets and that's it.

And why canned tuna and peanut butter (full of hydrogenated fats) and NOT lean fresh meats?

This is what happens when the government gets involved in deciding what you should feed your family and *where* you should buy it, which was the point of my socialism criticism.

[Robin in Tx]

There is a pick your own strawberry farm about 45 minutes from me, and the berries are good, but they are at least TWICE as much as the grocery store berries, which are almost just as good. Twice as much, and the privilige of stooping over in the hot sun and picking them yourself,and paying the gasoline to transport them back to your market area :)

[Colleen]

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of socialism here, but I want to express my passionate disagreement with the stereotyped dismissal you've given it above. Every economic system has its strengths and weaknesses, but they are more complex than that.

Ah, how I love it when I can merely say "I agree" rather than come up with a response of my own.;)

[Colleen]

I think price is one thing... I think time and knowledge and hope are in short supply for a lot of people too...I do think that it goes much deeper than mere "price".

Unfortunately, most people "educate" themselves in the conventional grocery ~ just as the marketers want them to. Those that do have even a minimal interest in nutrition rely on labels that scream "I'm healthy" ~ with little basis for such a claim, of course. I encounter this at my parents' home. My dad will proudly show me his jar of peanut butter that's free of trans-fats. Doesn't occur to him that sugar-laden peanut butter is just...wrong. He'll offer me "lemonade" that's sugar free. And so on. I say this not as a diatribe against my father, but to underscore the fact that today's average consumer is simply overwhelmed with illogical nutritional claims. Frustrating, to say the least.

[Robin in Tx]

It wasn't a dismissal, it was a criticism. And the criticism is just as valid as the praise. The reason it appears stereotypical is because those *ARE* typical flaws of government programs. It's a sterotype for a reason. :)

[Eliana]

But don't you agree that if they really wanted to support more fresh produce they would add fresh produce to the list of qualified foods (the same way that carrots are currently on the list)? I would argue that the Farmer's Market coupons do NOT support more fresh produce... they support Farmer's Markets and that's it.

And why canned tuna and peanut butter (full of hydrogenated fats) and NOT lean fresh meats?

This is what happens when the government gets involved in deciding what you should feed your family and *where* you should buy it, which was the point of my socialism criticism.

I'm not sure how to answer this without getting into a debate I don't want to have here...

*takes a deep breath*

Would you feel better if they just gave out cash instead? ...from what I've heard you say, I don't think you would.

When federal assistance to individuals (corporate welfare is less controversial) is intrinsically such a politically contentious topic, the policies become labyrinthian as caveats are added to placate people.

Any item on a WIC coupon much be available year round at every store which accepts the coupons; organic foods are not an option, only certain brands, sizes, flavors are allowed... getting carrots on was, aiui, not a simple process. To add other produce, they would have to specify the exact type and quantity and go through a messy process. Handing out farmer's market coupons gets better food into people's homes with less hassle.

Peanut butter and tuna fish are there to be cheap sources of protein; the current budget doesn't allow for anything else. I do wonder: if there were not such an opposition to anything which even appears vaguely socialist, perhaps we could have a more sensible, more helpful program.

But, given the restrictions, the WIC program does a fine job with the tools it has at trying to both provide food assistance and in educating people about nutritional choices.

Robin, I don't feel I am conveying an adequate amount of warm fuzziness in this conversation. :( I think the concerns you raised make sense from a distance, if that makes sense - or, I guess, with a completely different world view - but I don't see a reasonable way of exploring the roots of that difference in this forum! ;)

I do appreciate the care and concern you have for other people, and your desire, which I share, to do away with mazes of bureaucracy and have assistance programs assist people in a clear, reasonable way. I think our visions about how that could happen are probably very different, but I suspect that we do share many goals and values, even if we express them very differently.

Warmly (in the nice way, not the flaming way! :))

[Jenny in Atl]

It's also not just the food the average consumer eats but their inactive lifestyle. Most folks are lazy and they want what's quick and easy, and most supermarkets are more than happy to supply them with all the quick and awful food they could ever want. We are programed by nature to crave sweets & fats. Our bodies were made to live on the edge of famine, so it's more than just not being informed, we are tricked by our bodies to crave those foods, which in our modern world, are loaded with too much of everything but what we really need.

[Colleen]

It wasn't a dismissal, it was a criticism. And the criticism is just as valid as the praise. The reason it appears stereotypical is because those *ARE* typical flaws of government programs. It's a sterotype for a reason. :)

I understand your viewpoint, although I most assuredly did not read your comment as a "criticism". It did indeed come across as a dimissal.

[Crissy]

It's also not just the food the average consumer eats but their inactive lifestyle. Most folks are lazy and they want what's quick and easy, and most supermarkets are more than happy to supply them with all the quick and awful food they could ever want.
This is the issue that I see all around me. It is easier to toss a box of hamburger helper in the pot at 7pm, than to braise the meat, steam the vegetables and toss a fresh salad, right?
Though I don't know if it's laziness, or the wickedly busy lifestyles so many of my friends and family have chosen.

[Robin in Tx]

is that if WIC can issue a "coupon" good at a Farmer's Market, then they can issue a "coupon" good anywhere for fresh produce and/or meats.

They got around the red tape to issue the Farmer's Market coupons. They can figure this out if they want to. But part of the reason why they did the FM coupons was to generate support for Farmer's Markets... they say as much on their own website!

So, that's all I'm saying... they could figure out a way to make unprocessed fresh foods part of the WIC program if they really wanted to. And they *should* want to.

You didn't sound at all "unwarm" or "unfuzzy" :). And you'd probably be bowled over by the programs I would/do support that are arguably "socialist". I just happen to have a real burr in my saddle over WIC... great in theory... great in intent... but gosh, the little kids need real nourishment - they need oranges and apples, not cheap cookies (which is what is purchased for a snack because it is 1/10th the cost).

ARRGHHHH... off my soap box now... I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to start a debate. It's just a hot button with me due to the junk I see these moms buying at the checkout because their WIC dollars only pay for the milk, etc., and the junk is so much cheaper than real food... I know they'd buy the real food if they only had just a tad more help...

I appreciate your concern and passion, too, Eliana.

Robin

[Jenny in Atl]

I don't know if they would buy better/make better choices. I worked with WIC moms when I was a breastfeeding "support" person. It was very hard to get many of my moms to see that breastmilk was actually better than formula for their newborns. You are dealing with so much, lack of education, cultural differences, etc. Many of the moms could get extra WIC $ if they said they were still nursing, which many were not, and instead spent the money on other foods and formula. I think they felt more comfortable seeing what they were giving their babies?

[Eliana]

is that if WIC can issue a "coupon" good at a Farmer's Market, then they can issue a "coupon" good anywhere for fresh produce and/or meats.

They got around the red tape to issue the Farmer's Market coupons. They can figure this out if they want to. But part of the reason why they did the FM coupons was to generate support for Farmer's Markets... they say as much on their own website!

My perception is that framing FM coupons this way was part of the process of getting them approved.

Here's a link to a page on World Hunger Year's site about Us federal food programs:

http://www.worldhungeryear.org/fslc/faqs/ria_123.asp?section=10&click=2

and a page about funding issues and WIC (it's focus is Montana, but some of the information is both general a relevant):

http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/funding_issues_cause_an_organic_response_at_wic/C520/L40/

And a link to a powerpoint presentation about the results of a study on the effectiveness of the FM coupon program:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=9&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.walwica.org%2FWALWICA%2520FMN P.ppt&ei=qFDXR9WHJanSpgTP24SGAQ&usg=AFQjCNEvm4sUGL-pThF2DWi86l0kMQfUOg&sig2=rarU2RNh4BWzT7P-IMUCmQ







So, that's all I'm saying... they could figure out a way to make unprocessed fresh foods part of the WIC program if they really wanted to. And they *should* want to.

I don't think it is that simple - though I wish it were!


You didn't sound at all "unwarm" or "unfuzzy" :). And you'd probably be bowled over by the programs I would/do support that are arguably "socialist".

:) It's hard to tell where someone is really coming from with this discussion format, isn't it?


I just happen to have a real burr in my saddle over WIC... great in theory... great in intent... but gosh, the little kids need real nourishment - they need oranges and apples, not cheap cookies (which is what is purchased for a snack because it is 1/10th the cost).

ARRGHHHH... off my soap box now... I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to start a debate. It's just a hot button with me due to the junk I see these moms buying at the checkout because their WIC dollars only pay for the milk, etc., and the junk is so much cheaper than real food... I know they'd buy the real food if they only had just a tad more help...


Oh, yes, Robin, I agree completely with you here. (And I wish Food stamp programs were based on a more realistic food budget, so that money would be more likely to go towards nutritious food too!)

I've stood in line in the grocery stores seeing what people are getting and the hassles they get about the WIC details, and it seems all wrong to me too.

...but I do like the FM coupons. I like the freedom of choice it gives, and I do think that shopping at a FM indirectly encourages better food choices, and the quality is so much higher and the prices generally lower(at least here in Seattle - I know there are regional variations).


I appreciate your concern and passion, too, Eliana.

Robin

:) Thank you, my dear! ..and thank you for your graciousness. I feel that I have not expressed myself well at all, but you have been very generous in your responses. I appreciate your kindness.

[Robin in Tx]

You know, Jenny, you are probably right. I guess it is simply my hope that if they had a coupon for fresh produce, that they would actually USE that coupon and bring home a bag of apples, etc... apparently some do use the Farmer's Market coupons to get fresh produce... and yes, maybe they would still buy the cheap cookies, but at least their kids' diet would be a *little* more balanced.

I'm sure it is very frustrating, though, to try to help those who just can't let go of their habits/notions. It's frustrating just to think about! Gads, don't even get me started on the parents who trade their food stamps for drugs. I salute anyone working in one of these programs with a real heart to help, especially the children. I've got some at our church on Wednesday whose $1 meal is likely their best meal of the week, and that breaks my heart because it is our family's yuckiest meal of the week...

[nestof3]

From my experience, real foods vs processed, boxed foods are cheaper. Canned chicken is far more expensive than that you cook yourself, plus if you cook it yourself, you can make broth! Frozen vegetables are actually quite healthy and inexpensive. Potatoes, brown rice and beans are inexpensive as well. I don't understand the "low income people cannot afford to eat healthy" statements. $3.00 worth of potatoes will fill a family up more than $3.00 worth of potato chips. And the only beverage one needs is water. Okay, I can see the benefit of milk, but not koolaid, soda, Tang, etc.

Without getting into any antisocialism arguments, I will say that I find it quite annoying when someone is using WIC coupons, and then buying boxes of sodas and packs of cigarettes. Many people could choose to feed their family if they could give up their selfish ways. I choose not to waste money on sodas and addictive substances -- because they are unhealthy, but they also happen to be expensive. I have never seen a person buying with WIC that didn't have a pile of junk food going along with it.

[Melinda in VT]

This is the issue that I see all around me. It is easier to toss a box of hamburger helper in the pot at 7pm, than to braise the meat, steam the vegetables and toss a fresh salad, right?
Though I don't know if it's laziness, or the wickedly busy lifestyles so many of my friends and family have chosen.

Have you seen the current Hamburger Helper commercials? Women promising that tonight they are going to make a home-cooked meal. DH and I both remember when Hamburger Helper was advertised as a convenience food to give women a break from cooking home-cooked meals. How times have changed.

[Melinda in VT]

I know last year, one of the local farms donated money to the local food shelf that the food shelf could redeem at the farm stand during the summer. I thought it was a great way to get more produce to members of the community who are struggling financially.

[Robin in Tx]

When I get behind someone like that at the checkout line, I think to myself that WIC should change its name to the "Protection of Young Children from their Idiot Parents" Program. There. I said what most everyone thinks at one time or another :). Honestly, if it weren't for WIC, I wonder if those poor kids would get ANY milk, etc.... which is why I wish they'd issue produce vouchers good for any fresh produce (regardless of where it's purchased). The WIC moms will take the free food, and sometimes I think this is the only way to get the good stuff into those children's mouths...

I don't know about costs, though... Hamburger Helper, Hot Dogs, Corn Dogs, generic white bread... these sort of things show up in the low budget diet a lot because they are much cheaper and stretch farther than whole foods. I can not make from scratch a lasagna for less than what the Walmart frozen brand costs that is full of sugar, etc. I could put hot dogs on the table for half of what a fresh chicken costs, kwim? Brown rice is a lot more expensive than white rice. Whole grain breads and cereals more expensive, etc.

I agree about the frozen veggies... sometimes better than fresh, and not all that expensive (but not as cheap as canned... sigh...).

[Marie in Oh]

and it is not just the poor. We have friends who live in a half a million dollar home, the dad is a doctor, etc, and they LIVE on processed food and going through the drive through. Pot pies, boxed mac and cheese, Hot pockets, etc., etc. I am pretty sure she doesn't cook anything from scratch. ANd they go theough the McD's drive trough several times a week. It is scary. But I am sure it is how they were raised. ANd she came to me to tell me how concerned she was that we were buying some of our milk from a local farmer. Yikes.

[Robin in Tx]

You know, Marie, you're right about that... some people just get into that awful rut and never change even when they can... which further supports Jenny's belief that many on WIC wouldn't choose healthy if given the option.

I have a friend who is kind of like what you describe... she doesn't like the way fresh whole foods taste.
She PREFERS canned biscuits, etc... it's all she's ever known... and she can afford whatever she wants.

Funny comment about the milk :)

[Holly IN]

then sorry... you're s.o.l. (with the exception of carrots, the only produce covered)?

How ridiculous!

And while WIC does cover dried beans, milk, cheese and peanut butter, it is also covers (and is used primarily for) infant forumla, processed (iron fortified) cereals, canned/bottled fruit and veg juice high in vit. C (the juices, but not the fresh produce!!), and canned tuna. All processed stuff. I think the program is good in theory (trying to provide nutrition to unborn babies, infants and very young children in low income homes) but what ends up happening most of the time is the parents use the coupons to buy groceries for the entire family, and proportionately little gets to the target child while low birth weights, etc., haven't been affected much at all

Yep, socialism in all its glory... bureaucratic waste, abuse, nonsense guidelines, unmet goals...


I agree. When I was on WIC about 9 yrs ago, not many veggies or produce we eat (I and my kids) were not covered. So I mainly used them for milk the rest I pitch. Why? Why waste the money if we won't eat them. Some of our favorite veggies were not covered at all.

Yep, socialism in all its glory and I have seen so much waste durnig my time on WIC.

Holly

[Susan in Central Texas]

We've delighted ourselves in produce to the exclusion of convenience foods. We purchase almost no pre-packaged goods such as crackers, cookies, etc. Instead, we purchase whole grains, and make our own foods.

We've been eating fresh foods almost exclusively, and we've found that by elimated convenience/snack foods, our grocery bills are lower, our health is better, and we eat out less often (since we plan ahead more now).

Rising costs have done us a favor in that way...strangely...

It's helped us focus on what we really NEED instead of what is convenient, so we've really cut back to simpler dishes with fewer ingredients. They are really more delicious! And we've enjoyed a little surge of creativity along the way....homemade granola...spinach salads with avocado, walnuts, and fruit...balsamic vinegar and olive oil instead of "ranch" dressing....Yummy!!!:thumbup:

[StaceyinLA]

we've been eating "out of the loop" for years now. I say that because we do co-ops, buy meat from my sister's black angus herd (which is out grazing on 160 acres instead of being crammed into feed lots), buy organic chicken, shop at the farmer's markets, have milked goats, raise chickens, etc.

This Jan. I went veggie. I had done so well and we were doing even better with our diets than ever.

This last month I have totally blown everything I know out of the water. Even though I was not eating meat, I was starting to pickup fish sandwiches from McD's, drink cokes again, etc. Well today I totally blew it and ate a COLD CUT COMBO rom Subway. Bologna of all things!! I KNOW better than this! Then, tonight I came home and gorged on some deer sausage that dd bbq'd. I am sitting here feeling sick to my stomach (literally) from the food I consumed today, and sick knowing full well that I shouldn't have eaten any of it.

So I want to thank yall for this thread because I KNOW better. I have a mill on my counter and a closet full of whole grains, freezers full of organic fruits and veggies, cabinets full of good legumes. Thanks for reminding me that those are the things I should be eating!!

[Susan in Central Texas]

we've been eating "out of the loop" for years now. I say that because we do co-ops, buy meat from my sister's black angus herd (which is out grazing on 160 acres instead of being crammed into feed lots), buy organic chicken, shop at the farmer's markets, have milked goats, raise chickens, etc.

This Jan. I went veggie. I had done so well and we were doing even better with our diets than ever.

This last month I have totally blown everything I know out of the water. Even though I was not eating meat, I was starting to pickup fish sandwiches from McD's, drink cokes again, etc. Well today I totally blew it and ate a COLD CUT COMBO rom Subway. Bologna of all things!! I KNOW better than this! Then, tonight I came home and gorged on some deer sausage that dd bbq'd. I am sitting here feeling sick to my stomach (literally) from the food I consumed today, and sick knowing full well that I shouldn't have eaten any of it.

So I want to thank yall for this thread because I KNOW better. I have a mill on my counter and a closet full of whole grains, freezers full of organic fruits and veggies, cabinets full of good legumes. Thanks for reminding me that those are the things I should be eating!!

Okay, this is a little bit of a rant that I mean kindly, and that I don't mean to be preachy....but I thought about it for a couple of days, and I couldn't resist saying it...and it is after all, just my opinion meant to be helpful...:tongue_smilie:

We all blow it sometimes, but have grace/mercy over yourself. If you are too restrictive and legalistic about everything that you eat, you are really giving too much "power" to food, and you will find yourself defeated again and again just by the sheer amount of energy you give to thinking about food!

So....IMHO...you do the best you can by eating the way you know is right...and if you blow it a little from time to time, then let it go and move on, and just do better in the future without self-recrimination. A little give in the daily plan (unless you have special medical reasons to severely restrict and/or perfect a certain kind of diet) gives you the freedom you need to breathe and LIVE a lifestyle of healthy eating rather than constantly being on a DIET.

So, give yourself a break! :001_smile:

[ustasmom]

Yes and no.

Some people are searching out farm fresh eggs, CSA, farmer's markets. Others will go the "coupon" route and end up with a pantry full of high processed "stuff" that won't cost a whole lot.

[vmsurbat]

Rising food costs will mean different things to different people. For some, hopefully many, it will mean getting back to basics, a little home gardening, cutting down on the junk food first. More local alternatives will pop up when there is a *need* for it. Americans, on the whole, are very adaptive....

For others, it will mean going for the cheapest, easiest foodstuffs--healthy or not.

One thing that strikes me most, is the *huge* amount of choice Americans have in what they eat. Most of the non-Western world has nowhere near the choice.

We live in Montenegro, part of the former Yugoslavia, part of the Balkans--has both an "East" and "West" heritage.

Even our largest grocery store in the second-largest city in the country has a "convenience" food section that is perhaps the equivalent of 1 aisle (both sides) of a typical So. Calif grocery store (where we are originally from). That's it. And most of it is stuff that wouldn't typically be "fresh"--mustard, mayo, coffee, teas, baking powder, etc.. Surprisingly, there are a lot of chocolate and store-bought cookies available because that is a standard "hostess" gift when visiting people.

However, with the lack of junk/convenience food and few imported goods, the diet is fairly simple. There is very little "foreign" cuisine (some, but not much). There is not a great deal of variety in the veggie department (until summer, when it is glorious). A typical villager's diet consists of milk, yogurt, homemade cheese, eggs, potatoes, onions, cabbage, (all the staples, all year long), some meat (often smoked because it lasts without refrigeration) but not very much. In summer, they might hunt for wild berries, in the fall they gather wild rose hips and nuts. People in towns with gardens will grow tomatoes and peppers and such, but not the villagers--summer is not long enough or hot enough for the real sun-loving veggies.

We had lunch out in the village with some friends--this is the main meal of the day. It consisted of mashed potatoes mixed with some homemade cheese, a cornmeal mush mixed with some mashed potatoes, cheese, and oil, corn bread made with milk, cheese, and oil, *plus* some pickled cabbage. We visited in summer and the meat smoked from the previous autumn was all gone. These villagers work hard and live long in spite of the lack of variety and high fat (from the oil and cheese) diet.

In the city there is a very standard menu because of the lack of choice. Breakfast is bread and spread. Lunch is light broth with a few noodles, meat first boiled to make afore-mentioned broth, then roasted after being doused with a goodly amount of oil, salt, and pepper, bread, potatoes, salads (fresh in summer, pickled in winter, and not usually with lettuce which is typically only available in season, ie. spring and fall). That is what is eaten day in and day out with little variety for *most* families. Dinner (a light meal) is often bread again or leftovers or a sweet treat. It is, however, what they are used to... To me, with an appreciation of many of the world's cuisines, a truly local diet is a boring diet.

Appreciate the choices you all have--many people (hence the rioting in other parts of the world) have no choice--it is either pay or don't eat.

Another perspective,

[6packofun]

I think the situation forces a choice between 3 main options:

1) continuing to eat as always and sucking up the cost if one can afford it;
2) trying to maintain *quantity*, the sheer variety of foods one consumes and has become used to, but finding it through cheaper, usually less healthy food options;
3) choosing to eat more simply, with less variety but going for quality rather than quantity and probably going more natural/wholesome in the process. Another aspect of this might be to try and make much more from scratch.

We are trying very hard to do #3, but it's definitely work! It actually helps me, personally, to go this route because I'm trying to lose weight and so the food price situation is timely! LOL :D

[ckweyant]

I do think that we are going to see a trend bake to more homecooked meals. My mom just bought a bread making machine. Ive never seen her make bread before, and the cost of bread going so high, among other things, I am even thinking of buying one! And that is saying ALOT! Lol! Cassandra