Before I buy, TOG versus "Biblioplan with Truthquest Guides", what say ye?

[Kimber]

Biblioplan is easy, straightforward, and uncluttered. There is something for that. If we use TOG, I wont use the writing aids nor the maps because my kids will be taking Geography with co-op using My Father's World. We'll be doing ancients at home.

As I was about to purchase TOG, the thought hit me that if I use the Truthquest guides with Biblioplan (I'm sure that I read that someone here was doing that, can't remember who but thanks for the idea) wouldn't that essentially give me the same thing for less money and without the clutter.

Please let me know if I'm missing something.

When we use this, this will be my dd(10 at the the time) last time through the ancients before attacking Omnibus. One other question, will the Truthquest Guides give us the depth we want that I know we can get from TOG?

Thanks for the help:confused:

[Ali in OR]

I use Biblioplan now at grammar level and am very happy with it. But I will seriously look at TOG for logic stage. I don't have an answer for you one way or the other, but a few things I would look at:

-Biblioplan is just history. Are you likely to use TOG for literature, art, etc. (I'm not sure what all it includes), or are you mainly using it for history? If you want the other stuff, it would make sense to go with TOG.

-Cost difference. Biblioplan is ~$25 for a year, and I think TOG is ~$225. How much are TQ guides and how many are needed for one year? Do you already have them? Are you on a tight budget? Could $200 help significantly with other home school needs?

-Difference in style between TQ discussion questions and TOG teacher helps? I haven't seen either, but this could be a big factor for me. If one set was closer to my philosophy/teaching style, that could swing it for me. Have you been able to see both?

I have not really looked at TOG, but from various posts I get the feeling that there is a lot of overlap in books used by it and Biblioplan. Sorry I can't offer more help--let us know what you decide! We'll be there in a couple of years!

[siloam]

Kimber,

What are you after that Biblioplan isn't enough?

I ask because TQ would add some commentary, Christian based where important though much of it is just a basic overview of events and TQ is an awesome book list. If that is what you want, then TQ will fit the bill. In fact I wouldn't recommend TOG for a book list. TQ has tons more. If that isn't what you are looking for, then TOG might still be what you need.

Heather

[Kimber]

Well,

I'm not sure what I need. You ask a GREAT! question. I have to figure that out. I'm trying to decide if I need to purchase TOG before the price hike on 2/1. But before I need to do that, I guess I need to know what we'll be covering in the fall and whether or not TOG will be too much for that.

I feel like God has really been working with me on "Less is More." I have major problems in this area in every aspect of my life. So I think that TOG might be too much. Plus, I love that ancients in Biblioplan and Truthquest are studied by culture.

I'll have to study the truthquest guides a little more, maybe download a sample if they have them. My only goal is to have my dd ready for Omnibus in 3 years, in the areas of reading, writing, and critical thinking. Really having our highschool years planned may help me to streamline.

In other words, thank you for helpling me to think clearly.

I really appreciate your post!

:)

[KIN]

Kimber - What are you planning to do with the youngers for history/Bible, etc when your oldest starts Omnibus? How will you fit 2 sets of history or do you plan to roll them all into Omnibus some how??

[Kimber]

KIN, I'm not sure how I'll adjust to putting my children into a 3 year cycle from a 4 year cycle. I can envision it looking something like this for my 5th grader.

5th grade ancients
6th medieval
7th early modern
8th Omnibus I Modern
9th O I Ancients
10th OII Medieval
11th OII Modern
12th Civics/ Government


And for the brother who is 1.5 years younger


6th Modern (Regular)
7th O I Ancients
8th O I Medievel
9th O I Modern
10th Civics/Government
11th, 12th O II Ancients, Modern

Of course this is too far away for me to know for certain, but it seems like it would work. I wont know for sure until I know how much they can handle.

And as far as how I'd teach the younger children, I have no clue. It would be interesting to cover the same Biblical topics as are covered in Omnibus. This is what makes TOG so appealing, it would really have all of that planned out. But for now, I'm leaning again toward Biblioplan with Truthquest. I keep going back and forth on those two. :rolleyes:

[Kimber]

Thank you for the list of questions; they've helped a lot. I still can't decide, but I have until Thursday before the TOG prices increase from 180 to 225. The 45 dollar savings is what is making me decide so early. Because if I want TOG, I'll buy it before the price increase. I just don't know if I want it.

Part of the problem is that we've signed up for a more academic co-op that will require homework. The problem is I don't know how much time this will require. How intensive will this be for us? Will the planning in TOG be too much for us? I just don't have these answers.

But after you guys' responses, I've put a call in to the co-op department to try and get answers on how rigorous they plan to be in some of the classes.

Thanks for your help! :)

[Another Lynn]

I don't have any answers for you - there are things that appeal to me in all those programs (okay, I'm a curriculum junkie). But, just wanted to second your own thoughts about considering how much time your co-op will involve. We participated in Classical Conversations this year (my oldest is 9 and 3rd grade this year) and I felt a real need to cut back on my academic goals at home to accomodate it (and I wasn't even trying to add in something as intensive as TOG). I did hear of someone who considered doing CC with TOG and decided that there wasn't enough time to do both programs justice.

One other side thought.... if it were me.... I wouldn't worry too much about deciding before the price increase. I'm not saying that $45 isn't important.... but if I pushed myself into spending $180 and then regretted it - wouldn't that be worse than spending an extra $45 later and being sure? Just a thought.

Wish you the best - it's not an easy decision either way. PPs asked excellent questions! Hope you keep us posted.

[Julie in GA]

that there weren't enough specific questions given for discussion. The comments are general, and the "Think-Write" assignments are fairly general/broad, too. The book lists are quite extensive, but I didn't need that -- too many choices, and I was always wondering if I had chosen the right spine, or if I should just get them all. :)

Anyway, if you're looking for some structure for your logic stage kiddoes, TQ won't really have it. They give you things to think about, but that's about it.

HTH

[Kimber]

Thank you,

I needed to know this. This might push me over to Tapestry. Thanks. :)

[Kimber]

LOL! Spending 180.00 to save $45. That would describe me to a tee. I have even had the thought that if I buy now, I can purchase all of them for the same price of 225 and not loose any money. I guess I'm a junkie too.

Guess what I'm doing now? Sorting through curriculum to give away at co-op tomorrow. All so that I can make room for the NEW stuff.

I need help :rolleyes:

[RhondaM.]

Thank you,

I needed to know this. This might push me over to Tapestry. Thanks. :)

Not trying to persuade you one way or the other but it is pretty easy to use TQ in a structured way.

I spent a little bit of time last year making a Sonlight looking schedule for our TQ MA.

I easily added in activity pages I found from various sources,time line figures, Knowledge Quest maps, fiction, non fiction, a biography scattered here and there.

Then I decided which of those books I wanted for my personal library and placed an order at Amazon. My very own big box of hand picked books came to me...and it was every bit as exciting as opening a big box of SL!!! :)

And what is so great about it is that I know my schedule so well that I know what is extra and can safely be left out, and what needs to be cover. It is easy to adjust as life happens. Easy to add, easy to take away.

We have had a very enjoyable year! Because it fit my son to a T. I knew better than anyone exactly what he wanted to read. And TQ commentary is just wonderful.

It is a very easy program to work with.

I did consider trying to combine TQ and Biblioplan, but for me it was so much easier just doing it myself. Plus I wanted to use the Guerber books as our main spine for logic stage, not Kingfisher or SOTW.
Combining can be done though. I do remember seeing that someone has done it before.

[Kimber]

Why the Guerber books? And did you have to make up your own TQ questions?

[RhondaM.]

Why the Guerber books? And did you have to make up your own TQ questions?

I just like them. They are older books. And I like the writing style. They are full of old pictures. They go into a bit more detail than SOTW.

I didn't make up one single question. I just sit down with ds and read the commentary to him. This really works well because ds and I both find her commentary so interesting. It takes a little while to get through it because ds often has to stop me to agree (or even disagree with her POV) and talk about what he has learned. It sparks some great conversations with him. I don't think he'd have as much to say if I asked him a pointed question. But the commentary just gets him so excited that he will just talk and talk about what he has learned.

[Kimber]

Wow, that sounds really nice. It's always nice to come back to the fact that I can't really go wrong. :)

[RhondaM.]

Wow, that sounds really nice. It's always nice to come back to the fact that I can't really go wrong. :)

Nope. You really can't. Both TOG and TQ are excellent. Let us know which one you choose. :)

[OhElizabeth]

I'm not sure what the others have suggested, have had a chance to read through, but when I look at TOG, honestly to me it looks like an expanded version of VP. Since you are looking forward to doing VP Omnibus, I'd suggest doing the VP sequence now. That way you'll have the history content nailed and have the writing practice you need to be ready to do Omnibus. VP OTAE is one of my favorites, and I'm NOT a history buff, lol. Check it out. Join the VP_Elementary yahoo group and talk with others using it. You could combine OTAE and NTGR into one awesome year. I have the TQ guides for ancients as well as american, and I have to say I would NOT do TQ for ancients. Do VP.

[Kimber]

How does this actually work? Is it planned out for you. Is it scheduled daily with background information? And my oldest would be in 5th grade technically. Wouldn't this be too easy for her since it is listed under the second grade material? It looks great, and I hope I'm wrong about my assumptions.

Thanks for the information,

Kimberly

[OhElizabeth]

Kimber, the tm for each of the years of VP history is on the enhanced cd as a pdf file. You'll have a number of pages for each week, making a total of some 420 pages in OTAE, don't recall the counts for the other years. Each card will have a preliminary worksheet (read the card together, answer in complete sentences, this becomes their memory work), craft or extension projects, a writing project (some form of narration, maybe from a creative viewpoint or on pretty paper to make it interesting), projects and rabbit trails for olders (often incorporating additional topics like art, writing projects, IEW skills), and then the test (repeat of the first day's worksheet and review of previous cards). There are lots of ways to use it, ranging from exactly as written to the cards as a guide and filling in with TQ and activities kits. Most people do somewhere in-between. I've done it lots of ways, and we're back to writing the answers to the worksheets but skipping the tests. Next year (4th) I've determined to be more diligent about having her do the writing projects.

There are content and projects to span the ages, all the way to 6th grade EASILY. Britta of morningstarlearning.com tells how she uses VP history with olders on her blog. VP gives you a framework and then you just fill in with more challenging books, the writing projects, rabbit trails, etc. It's easy to take it up. I like TOG too, but when your kids are all elementary or junior high, I think VP is more than adequate and a bit more streamlined, easier to use.

I wouldn't use Guerber ancients as your spine right now. I have it, got it last year, and while I like it, it's really overkill for the ages you have. Not only is it overmuch detail, but it's detail that won't make sense if they haven't been through it before. I'm not a history buff, but in looking through Guerber (which I really liked btw and would love to use as a spine later), I could see where it would make more sense to a student who has been through VP or something once, seen the entire scheme of things, and is ready to start making connections. I think TOG cites it as a high school spine, doesn't it? Really, a more mature student will make more connections with it. Guerber will be awesome, at the right time. You can easily get through VP OTAE, NTGR, etc. without it this time and use it for your NEXT time through, just a thought.

You're using IEW now, aren't you? Funny, I've been hearing so much about IEW, I've become very curious about it. Like you, I think there needs to be some balance with imitative and structured writing. In any case, I would think the ability to integrate your IEW-type writing into the VP history would be a plus for you.

If you're not sure what you think of VP, start with just the enhanced cd and cards. That way you can look at the tm and really collect yourself. A lot of reviews you read about it are not ACCURATE, because people were looking at the old edition with only 200 some pages. The new edition (not sure of the year), has over 400 and is MUCH better, resolves the issues you read about in online reviews. It's definitely a way to keep all your kids together without the expense and added stuff to sort through of TOG. I like TOG, but you don't necessarily need all that right now, kwim? I guess decide how much you need. If you'd like TOG pruned to just junior high and elementary, then VP will work great for that. If you want an emphasis on memory work and writing, VP is great for that. You can use any books you have and fit them into the framework of VP, no problem. And of course the song and cards make it just plain fun. :)

[RhondaM.]

I think TOG cites it as a high school spine, doesn't it? Really, a more mature student will make more connections with it. Guerber will be awesome, at the right time.


I don't remember the ages of her children..but TOG schedules Guerber in Lower & Upper Grammar. They only schedule it for D & R as additional reads.

TQ suggested it for grades anywhere from 4-7 to 4-9 (depending on which book)

Personally I would not use it with children any younger than about 5th. Maybe earlier for a kid who was really into history.

[RhondaM.]

You can see samples of the Guerber books here.
http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber.shtml

[Tami]

Well, I for one think TOG is overkill for the ages you have.. :eek:

If BiblioPlan is working for you, why not continue with it? Sorry if I missed something.

I like Veritas Press cards for Ancients, since they integrate Bible and secular history. Another option to do this would by Mystery of History. Have you ruled these out?

I don't care for TruthQuest Ancients alone, because it leaves out too many cultures and doesn't integrate the Biblical events. Does that matter to you?

[Kimber]

OhE, Rhonda, and Tami,

This information is really helpful. My children will be 10, almost 9, 5, and 3. My oldest is reading the Odyssey for fun right now. She's an avid reader, but my oldest boy is in to "things", typical guy.:)

I think the VP cards and TM might be the way to go. The price seems right. I don't want something that's too much because of co-op. And it does get in line for Omnibus in 3 to 4 years. I'll probably start her a year later and do only 4 years of Omnibus with her, not 6. (Although, who really knows at this point, right.) I was already planning on purchasing their songs and memory cd for ancients. I may as well purchase the tm and see how that goes. I'll do a little more research on the sight. But given our time constraints, TOG would probably be too much. Biblioplan does look good. But if I plan on using VP later on, it might be in my best interest to go there now.

OhE, I teach IEW at co-op this year, and next year as well. We are using CW at home. I'll probably continue that. But I make my own workbook and add the IEW techniques to it. I also use IEW to teach my kids writing outside of their writing curriculum.

You know, I'm really changing my approach to everything. I was at one point concerned about stretching them. Not so much, now I want to just relax and go deep into our subjects. I want to relax in some areas, but really not overtax them so that they can focus more on reading and writing and math and foreign languages in a relaxed manner.

Thanks so much for the help everyone. I feel blessed to have had everyone's input. It means a lot to me. If I knew you in real life, you would get one of these smiles from me. :D (My sister hates when I smile and show all of my teeth.:rolleyes:)

[Jodi-FL]

if your main goal is to prepare them for Omnibus, I would use what the VP use to prepare their own students for it. We'll be using VP next year for my Jr. High and youngers too. It's a good solid program, that many other books can be added to.

[OhElizabeth]

Oh Kimber, I'm glad you're grinning and showing your teeth!! :)

I just wanted to chime in that I too am feeling that need to, uhm, find our comfort pace. We've done lots, we've done little, and now we're trying to find just right, that sweet point where we do enough to be moving forward nicely but not so much as to use up all her energy for her own explorations and creativity. I changed our math to make that happen and am taking other things, like LA, from the realm of theoretically to the realm of what is actually, really and truly age-appropriate and sensible and reasonable to require. Like if I require at 70-80% of capability (time-wise, endurance-wise, energy-wise), then it leaves her some energy to pursue things on her own. I used to think and look for how much I could get out of her. Now I'm looking for a stopping point that's BEFORE that but still academically progressive, a point where things are pleasant, positive, and profitable.

And not to confuse you, but I'd also agree with Tami that MOH could be a great option for you. Just look them both over, VP and MOH, and see which one calls to you. You can memorize the VP songs while doing MOH, or you can just do VP straight. I like VP straight for the memory work, clear structure, integration of writing skills, and ability to have assignments and books at lots of levels. I like MOH for it's focus on meaning, the big picture, and connections. With an older dc, I'd definitely consider MOH. I will say that I don't care for MOH2 as much, probably couldn't stomach reading it aloud myself (and I own it). It's just way too dry and textbooky. So if you did MOH1, you might not like MOH2. Or maybe you would, you never know. There are large samples online, so just look.

On the VP, the tm is included as a pdf in the enhanced cd, meaning when you buy the cards and enhanced cd, you'll have it. What you might like to do is OTAE plus NTGR in more or less one year, MARR spread over a year, then have just your oldest do the two years of american condensed into one. That would get her done with all 5 years of the cards in 3 years, letting her start Omnibus earlier, if that's important to you. If not, spread it out any way you wish and enjoy! It's a little different getting used to a framework, but I find it a really nice way to teach. At the VP_Elementary yahoo group you can search the files and find schedules and how people have organized their plans for teaching different ages together.

Just go with your gut and whichever you chose will be great! :)

[siloam]

I don't remember the ages of her children..but TOG schedules Guerber in Lower & Upper Grammar. They only schedule it for D & R as additional reads.

TQ suggested it for grades anywhere from 4-7 to 4-9 (depending on which book)

Personally I would not use it with children any younger than about 5th. Maybe earlier for a kid who was really into history.

I am using Story of the Great Republic (already finished Story of the Thirteen Colonies) with my 4th, 2nd and 1st graders without problems. We usually only read a chapter a day, which is only a page or a page and a half. Takes all of 5 mins and while it does have more detail than they need now and then it is working fine.

The verbage is a little old school, but that doesn't bother my kids at all. In fact my oldest has request I buy her a King James Bible because she likes the old style so much. :rolleyes:

Are the other books that much heavier? There have only been a few times I we have found it tedious. OK only once, and that was with some of the detail on the Revolutionary War. The rest has been fine (no book is perfect).

Heather

[RhondaM.]

I
Are the other books that much heavier? There have only been a few times I we have found it tedious. OK only once, and that was with some of the detail on the Revolutionary War. The rest has been fine (no book is perfect).

Heather

I don't think they are. I just really think it depends on the kids in question, how much they like to read, or like being read to, and probably how much they have been read to in the past.

My 6th grader started reading them last year on his own in 5th and could have read them earlier. I'm sure I could have read them to him when he was younger ...like in 2nd as you are doing ...and he'd have been fine with it.

Not so for my oldest or my youngest. No way my 1st grader will be ready for Guerber next year. And I don't think my oldest son would have enjoyed reading it to himself even in 5th.

So it very much depends on the kids and what they are ready for.

[siloam]

I don't think they are. I just really think it depends on the kids in question, how much they like to read, or like being read to, and probably how much they have been read to in the past.

My 6th grader started reading them last year on his own in 5th and could have read them earlier. I'm sure I could have read them to him when he was younger ...like in 2nd as you are doing ...and he'd have been fine with it.

Not so for my oldest or my youngest. No way my 1st grader will be ready for Guerber next year. And I don't think my oldest son would have enjoyed reading it to himself even in 5th.

So it very much depends on the kids and what they are ready for.

In addition, I was looking at the samples and I can see where they do come across....as more complicated. The two I have are set in relatively familiar times, places are familiar, the kids had already watched enough Liberty Kids for the people to be familiar. In reading the Ancients sample *I* was having to pull from the corners of my mind to remember who was who so I could follow what they were talking about.

Given that issue I think the last two are more kid friendly.

[5wolfcubs]

KIMBER! Did you decide what to use for next year??? I just read through this thread and see I'm on the same indecisive path as you! And the spend $180 to save $45?! :D That describes me exactly when it comes to curriculum! Thankfully not clothes or decor or anything else though!

[Kimber]

I went ahead because the TQ guides rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't like the chummy tone. It's just me. To be honest, I would have preferred that TOG were not so formal. But I'd rather have the World Book version than chummy.

I hate to say this because I don't think there's anything really wrong with TQ, it's just my personal preference. I'm sure they're absolutely great.

The other thing about TOG that I really liked was the pageant of philosophy. I want that for my 10 year old next year. We wont do the Geography or the fine arts. I wont be using the Writing Aids, though I think I may incorporate the writing concepts into CW Homer B next year. I have switched over to using just the core. So using my own models will hopefully make that easier to do, I think.

I like the Student Activity pages as well.

And one reason for purchasing it early, is that since I've saved the $45, I can justify purchasing the VP cards to use as our main spine and reorganizing our approach to TOG from the VP cards.

Now I know these are grandiose plans. None of these may work as well as I like, blended. But if they do, I'll be in hog heaven. How's that for sounding chummy! :D

What will you do?